Goblin Squad Member
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In general, common recipes are the ones that first appear when you progress to a new crafting rank. The trouble is that after you learn a few recipes, it's hard to remember which ones the trainer gave you, vs which ones you found or bought.
Long-term I'd like my character to have an in-game "book" that I can refer to, showing information on each of my recipes. I should be able to check if I know a recipe without going to an appropriate crafting station. I should be able to see what the material inputs are for the different plusses. The book should also be able to tell me all of the various feats I've bought.
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Graphics-wise the game is ok, not great but it could stand improvement.
Gameplay-wise-I Stutter constantly and it is nearly unplayable at times even against little goblins that are killing me left and right while I am trying to turn to fight them and end up with my back towards them because the game is catching up to my movement press of the keys and doesn't visually show what's actually going on.
I fear this is do to some settings I have set or something where i have to high level of detail for drawing graphics or something because it hinders game play considerably, even on my alienware laptop w/ a hi-end graphics card and memory.
Also, content/achievements-I think there's no way around the basic definition of MMORPG - Massive multiplayer Online role playing Grind! Most games doing it with levels and xp gaps grinding, some doing it with mob grinds, some doing it with skills grind.
The trick to developing the "no-grind" game is to mask it in such a way as let the playerbase play the casual game of killing and looting and exploring and add the functions of all those skills as part of the progression piece which is what they're attempting to do with the achievements but because they're gated to stop at a certain point they don't appear to be functioning 100% into the projected scope of what they're planning them to do.
As I've read above players are hitting the gate cap and can't progress further in their chosen skills without incessant grinding of mobs or skills or weapons or whatever. I have not hit this yet but there has to be a way to expand across the skill sets to allow for a smoother transition without the grind gate of skills or mobs. And make it fun, I just don't know what that is yet.
Personally I love the crafting system, but so far it has irked me as well having to have 100 different mats gathered in surplus to meet the requirements to grind a part which the parts feed into as mats for higher level items which then have to be created mutliple times to get to the next tiers to get to the next items to get to then ext parts to start over in the next level of your profession of crafting. it seems round robining the grind but i don't want to be a sawyer, woodcutter, gatherer, armorsmith, weaponsmith, smelter. I want to make a decent heavy armor piece, have and use a shield and have and use an axe, preferably ones that i've made. Unfortunately I have to do all those other things to get the pre-req parts to fulfil it...and that that 45 mins to craft a simple pine shield thing...hmmmmm
yeh no...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rorin: Turns out you don't have to face your target so long as you have them targeted. It feels more comfortable to face them, and it is easier to select your next target when you can see them, but facing is pretty much irrelevant as far as I can tell.
And now that we have an auction house you should be able to find all those refined goods already made by others and for sale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rorin: Turns out you don't have to face your target so long as you have them targeted. It feels more comfortable to face them, and it is easier to select your next target when you can see them, but facing is pretty much irrelevant as far as I can tell.
And now that we have an auction house you should be able to find all those refined goods already made by others and for sale.
I cannot see the AH system doing much short-term. There are a range of issues which will limit it:
- known flaws and bugs which hopefully will be fixed including bad searches, impossibility of buyers to easily see what items have stock and the invisibility of anything over +2
- the tendency of everyone to craft everything, or give there stuff to friends that do
- the low population in server means for basics like coal or steel plates you really need to be able to list multiple items for long periods. Allowing the listing of 5 items for 2 days each does not work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sorry, have to agree with all of Xeen's points.
As I recall, the entire reason I even threw my hundred dollars into the crowd funding campaign in the first place was the promise of "No Grinding"...
You can call it Achievements if you want to but it's still grinding.
There's a saying "You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd"
If I have to grind my way to the top, I'm not playing this game, period.
I will be placing my account for sale, soon if this nonsense continues.
I have been in Grindy games, this game doesn't feel that grindy at all. Once they get in a few more different types of Achievements, it will probably feel better, as you won't actually need to get to 6500 kills.
I can think of a lot of games, Darkfall (original) for one, that required a lot more grind.
I think the issue here is the Devs promised "no grinding" most of you on here are simply dancing around the subject and making excuses for why the devs aren't delivering on promises.
You may like to grind, but I certainly don't and it's one of the main reasons why I bought into this game.
There are many issues here, and I understand it's in Alpha... but... making false promises and not delivering on them truly shakes my confidence in them and the game itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO falls within the category between No Grinding and an Awful Lot of Grinding, which means.... It has grinding!
The attributes, broken or not, are another issue. We should not have to train in skills that we have no desire in using, just for the sake of raising our attribute scores to unlock the skills that we do want to train.
If I have to raise my Dex, then let me raise it by training short bow, light blade, light armor, stealth, and other Rogue based feats.
I'm not saying remove it from leather working, bowyer, tailor, etc.
I'm sure crafters won't like the idea of having to train combat skills they have no intentions of using, to acquire new feats in crafting.
I'm not saying, they may not want to cross train, but they shouldn't have to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You may like to grind, but I certainly don't and it's one of the main reasons why I bought into this game.
There are many issues here, and I understand it's in Alpha... but... making false promises and not delivering on them truly shakes my confidence in them and the game itself.
What constitutes grinding? I've seen people here use definitions as loose as "I want never to do the same thing twice", which, to be honest, makes little sense to me in context of a game, through "I want never to *have to* do the same thing twice", to "I want never to *have to* do anything"; I see little agreement in what's acceptable, so it quickly becomes an "eye of the beholder" problem.
It seems as if we're going to be presented with a game to play, and we'll play it, or not, or just for a while and then never again, or for a while and then go away to watch how it changes, or any number of other combinations. Each person's going to make his own decisions about how to approach what Goblinworks offers, and there is no possible scenario in which they can please all their supporters, much less the people they both want and need to attract beyond that pool of current supporters.
Goblinworks, unique among developers I've given my money, is allowing us to participate in some aspects of their game-creation. We'll be asked for our input, and we'll provide it un-asked; some of our desires will be met, and others won't; and we've already seen several instances where simple conversations among we interested parties on these boards have resulted in changes in Pathfinder Online as it exists.
Finally, you acknowledged it's Alpha, but you've also said their promises are false. It feels as if you've not allowed much room for a "yet" factor; there's so much that's not in the game "yet", and quite a few folks--not just you--seem to behave as if everything should be here already.
Is it possible to have faith in Goblinworks to turn out a game many people will enjoy playing?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well you could always combine the two issues and have achievements grant ability increases but people would find reason to be unhappy with that as well.
It is pretty simple really, the sort of player who wants to be able to just login, create a character, ramp it up to max level using some min/max formula build and then go out and harass other players for tears generally is also the sort of person who is very loud and aggressive on the forums. So anything that limits the ability to login, max your character and go kill people will meet with loud complaints :D
That does not necessarily mean (without some way of testing the player base and crowd forging is way too biased in favor of the loud and obnoxious) that a majority of players have an issue, it may just mean the aggressive pushy loud part of the player base have an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Graphics - I'm not so worried about the graphics becoming super high quality in the immediate future. Some games have spend a lot of their development budget on art and graphics and their game play could not save them. See other thread on WildStar, and SWTOR, and Darkfall, and RiFT, and ...a bunch of others. There were some serious flaws in the game play, but they graphics were spiffy!
On the other hand I am having some problems getting stable displays. When I run into combat the screen will mostly turn blue, I can see my slotted feats in the UI, and can hear the combat, but I know when that happens I am doomed and see the flash of clouds as I get teleported back to the shrine. Only solution is to relog.
Another problem I have run into fairly often is when there is a lot going on inside my video card (my own stuff running, or I have 1 or 2 other toons active in PFO) I have a very difficult time steering my character while adventuring. The graphics update is exceeding slow and I find myself turned around and heading into an enemy camp solo, which is great fun. Surely this is partly my card (NVidia GTX 560,,,getting old, but should still be sufficient).
Achievements - I agree with the more focused achievement structure. A little dabbling here and there in the lower levels at a pretty low XP cost is acceptable, but if there are totally unrelated XP costs at the higher levels we are talking months worth of XP burn to get through a gate. the general public will see that as an exploitation of player subscription fees and a pure money grab. I totally get the gating thing, and the achievement requirements, as do the others. But they should be related somehow to the players interests. My cleric picked up a 2 handed greatsword and is whacking things instead of healing fellow party members. The heals totally suck at the lowest levels and make completing the achievements very difficult, even when self healing then attacking the monsters. The Divine achievements are hard to complete, even with the "Kill 1250 skeletons" stuff it is tough.
Classes - Role/Class. It makes no difference to me. Say I play a Shaman (in a different game). Shaman is my class, but I can be damage or healer, either one is a role. Maybe it is the OGL that is requiring the distinction (much like not using "Charisma, but "Personality").
PvP - We have so little in the game relative to the overall PvP experience I think it is far too early to judge how the OE PvP game will be. The combat needs some polish, but I am okay with what is in as long as my graphics display cooperates.
Crafting - The drops actually seem pretty frequent at this stage. they should always be level 1/tier 1 stuff, and not much of it, so the crafters get the best crafting experience they can get. I am all for gear being crafted, and as many others have said, repair is not in yet which will slow the gear burn down a lot. Death and looting is not in yet, which will increase the gear burn rate a lot. Until those two factors are in and can be measured for a considerable period I think it is too early to tweak the drop rate.
Allow a Focus - Yes. I think many of the role "signature items" might not be in yet since it is so early. But allowing a more streamlined progression will also make the role feel more accurate to the traditional concept in the TT game.
Some possible suggestions for other achievements:
Exploration (I know, the map is not complete yet.) Shrines, settlements, bridges, various ruins, caves, bodies of water, points of interest (geographical features, not player structures), graveyards, intersections, escalation camps, actual map hexes, percent of map uncovered. (I did like that the world map in Darkfall was dark until you were bold enough to explore an area and expose it. There might also be a way for you personal map to show more details if you explore a hex, i.e. the shrines show on the map, the roads show on the map, a topography lines feature becomes toggleable (great advantage for scouts and spies).
Social - Interacting with NPCs. Sure, it's only a right click, but make the number higher. We need to talk to them anyway, and the level 1 Social would be 10, and that would be complete in the first settlement. As you explore you meet more NPCs. Easy stuff.
Social - Using different operations like "trade","party" etc... The chat functions need a lot of additional features at a fairly high priority because using them is a right pain.
Construction - Building stuff for your settlement. You should not be the one that has to swing the hammer of chop down the tree, but supporting the construction in some way should be enough.
Boss kills - These could count as "Dungeoneering", "PvE", "Social" or other categories.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exploration (I know, the map is not complete yet.) Shrines, settlements, bridges, various ruins, caves, bodies of water, points of interest (geographical features, not player structures), graveyards, intersections, escalation camps, actual map hexes, percent of map uncovered. (I did like that the world map in Darkfall was dark until you were bold enough to explore an area and expose it. There might also be a way for you personal map to show more details if you explore a hex, i.e. the shrines show on the map, the roads show on the map, a topography lines feature becomes toggleable (great advantage for scouts and spies).
I'd like this, too. It's not critical to me, because I know that full-detail maps would soon be posted online anyway, but I like the idea that the more places you visit, the more Exploration achievement points you'll earn.
Social - Using different operations like "trade","party" etc... The chat functions need a lot of additional features at a fairly high priority because using them is a right pain.
The Number One thing I'd love to see added to the chat interface is /R for Reply to Last Whisper. Some people are using long names for their characters, and it sucks to type "/w Mygoodfriend Withaverylongname Watch out. The escalation between our settlements has reached 98%", and have the whisper fail to send because you forgot a comma.
As for other / operations, /wave would be a good choice to implement soon. Right now, all you can do is jump up and down when you see someone you know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well you could always combine the two issues and have achievements grant ability increases but people would find reason to be unhappy with that as well.I couldn't agree more.
It is pretty simple really, the sort of player who wants to be able to just login, create a character, ramp it up to max level using some min/max formula build and then go out and harass other players for tears generally is also the sort of person who is very loud and aggressive on the forums.Let us not forget to point out that not everyone who is loud and aggressive on the forums is like that. I think. Really?
So anything that limits the ability to login, max your character and go kill people will meet with loud complaints :D
That does not necessarily mean (without some way of testing the player base and crowd forging is way too biased in favor of the loud and obnoxious) that a majority of players have an issue, it may just mean the aggressive pushy loud part of the player base have an issue.
...or they have big mouths and think everyone will be interested in their take on things... present company excepted of course!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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What constitutes grinding? I've seen people here use definitions as loose as "I want never to do the same thing twice", which, to be honest, makes little sense to me in context of a game, through "I want never to *have to* do the same thing twice", to "I want never to *have to* do anything"; I see little agreement in what's acceptable, so it quickly becomes an "eye of the beholder" problem.You may like to grind, but I certainly don't and it's one of the main reasons why I bought into this game.
There are many issues here, and I understand it's in Alpha... but... making false promises and not delivering on them truly shakes my confidence in them and the game itself.
Its pretty simple. I do not want to be forced into doing a large number of npc kills, large number of gathering completions, or a large number of crafting runs to advance my character.
It seems as if we're going to be presented with a game to play, and we'll play it, or not, or just for a while and then never again, or for a while and then go away to watch how it changes, or any number of other combinations. Each person's going to make his own decisions about how to approach what Goblinworks offers, and there is no possible scenario in which they can please all their supporters, much less the people they both want and need to attract beyond that pool of current supporters.
We do expect them to at least attempt to do the small number of things they said they would.
Achievements are a grind required to advance my character. There is no disputing that.
Goblinworks, unique among developers I've given my money, is allowing us to participate in some aspects of their game-creation. We'll be asked for our input, and we'll provide it un-asked; some of our desires will be met, and others won't; and we've already seen several instances where simple conversations among we interested parties on these boards have resulted in changes in Pathfinder Online as it exists.
Yes, true. There has been changes. I am still going to hold their feet to the fire with the promises made to get our money.
No one else will do it, no one else wants to call them out, everyone wants to pussyfoot around and sing kumbaya. I am glad that a couple other people are here to do the same.
Finally, you acknowledged it's Alpha, but you've also said their promises are false. It feels as if you've not allowed much room for a "yet" factor; there's so much that's not in the game "yet", and quite a few folks--not just you--seem to behave as if everything should be here already.
Is it possible to have faith in Goblinworks to turn out a game many people will enjoy playing?
There are a couple promises that are false. Its pretty obvious. It doesnt need to get out of Alpha to confirm that.
But if we hold their feet to the fire now, then it can be corrected.
Goblinworks will put out a game people will enjoy. I just dont like being told I will get one thing, so I give out my money, then get another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it is merited to equate design intents with 'promises'. If someone intends to build a system that will do an idealistic laundry list of things, markets the idea believing their list is achievable, and gets most of it right that doesn't mean the entries in the list that have not been met are broken promises, especially while they're still working on it.
Describing these design objectives as broken promises doesn't seem right to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My biggest disappointment so far is that GW went for a tab targeting system rather then something closer to pnp like DDO's combat system. I guess I was really picturing a cross between pathfinders world DDO's combat and eve online's skill system and pvp sandbox. Sounds simple enough but there it is.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What constitutes grinding? I've seen people here use definitions as loose as "I want never to do the same thing twice", which, to be honest, makes little sense to me in context of a game, through "I want never to *have to* do the same thing twice", to "I want never to *have to* do anything"; I see little agreement in what's acceptable, so it quickly becomes an "eye of the beholder" problem.
It seems as if we're going to be presented with a game to play, and we'll play it, or not, or just for a while and then never again, or for a while and then go away to watch how it changes, or any number of other combinations. Each person's going to make his own decisions about how to approach what Goblinworks offers, and there is no possible scenario in which they can please all their supporters, much less the people they both want and need to attract beyond that pool of current supporters.
Goblinworks, unique among developers I've given my money, is allowing us to participate in some aspects of their game-creation. We'll be asked for our input, and we'll provide it un-asked; some of our desires will be met, and others won't; and we've already seen several instances where simple conversations among we interested parties on these boards have resulted in changes in Pathfinder Online as it exists.
Finally, you acknowledged it's Alpha, but you've also said their promises are false. It feels as if you've not allowed much room for a "yet" factor; there's so much that's not in the game "yet", and quite a few folks--not just you--seem to behave as if everything should be here already.
Is it possible to have faith in Goblinworks to turn out a game many people will enjoy playing?
If I want to build 300 copper axes, I agree to farm the number of materials which are necessary to do it. If I don't want to, I can just build 30 copper axes. Or just 3.
But I don't agree with grinding just to "unlock" my character. Why, because of a simple logic :
In EvE, I must pay for each new character. I can use them as I please, when I want, I know that not playing character X isn't a problem : whenever I want to play again, he will have no possibilities, because I paid for it.
In WoW, I have to pay just one subscription, unlike EvE. It's very cheaper. I can play as much characters I want to without paying more : BUT, I have to grind them. And constantly keep them up-to-date. That's the deal.
In PFO... You get both. You have to pay for each character you want to play, AND you have to constantly keep them up-to-date by grinding achievements.
The goal of any company, is to make you pay, that's the point. You can use EvE's model, paying XP based on how long you pay, or WoW's model, paying for the access to the game, and making you pay longer by using grinding as a way to keep you subscribed. Using both model, no thank you. Essentially, we are playing a WoW model, but with more limitations and a bigger price.
From what I remember Jazz, you want to play like 2 characters, counting your DT ?
You know how many I intend to play. As much as I did in EvE, 5 or 6. Should I be forced to play six time more than a regular player ? And paying six time more ? I'm sorry, but it's not an interesting perspective to me.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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My biggest disappointment so far is that GW went for a tab targeting system rather then something closer to pnp like DDO's combat system. I guess I was really picturing a cross between pathfinders world DDO's combat and eve online's skill system and pvp sandbox. Sounds simple enough but there it is.
More and more people are asking for what you are asking. But on the other hand, every game for the last years using what to ask for failed miserably, and tab-targeting games are still the most successful ones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it is merited to equate design intents with 'promises'. If someone intends to build a system that will do an idealistic laundry list of things, markets the idea believing their list is achievable, and gets most of it right that doesn't mean the entries in the list that have not been met are broken promises, especially while they're still working on it.
Describing these design objectives as broken promises doesn't seem right to me.
I disagree. There isnt a laundry list of things, there were 6. They all are easy enough to accomplish.
No Classes - Which we ALL are currently monitoring and increase in level so we can increase in skill... There is no intent to change that, I would say its a broken promise but its one I can live with.
No Grinding - This one I have obviously described. It is a broken promise, as I have run into this wall... and there is no intention to change it.
More then a Gank Fest - This will be achieved in my mind, but many will disagree when I gank them. They will fail to realize what my punishment will be.
Player Structures - Good Job, happening
All Players are Useful - Good Job, happening
Trade is Meaningful - Good Job, happening
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Goblin Squad Member
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These things need to be looked at ASAP in my opinion:
-Achievements (way too grindy)
-Attributes (forced to train in areas unrelated to my role in order for attribute advancement?)
-"Reaction time" (the delay between when a player activates an ability and when the game recognizes it)
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Goblin Squad Member
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...increase in level so we can increase in skill...
I didn't remember that "Fighter 4" was a pre-requisite for anything; I thought it was just book-keeping, classification short-hand, and bragging-rights. Is there a mechanical reason to bother with Role levels, when one can instead concentrate on earning more levels in Hit Points, Dragoon, and Base Attack Bonus?
It feels as if they could move even further away from the traditional "Classes" by simply removing those Achievements from the game entirely. Having the word "Fighter" not exist in PFO would handily address some of the "it's not Classless" argument.
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Goblin Squad Member
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-"Reaction time" (the delay between when a player activates an ability and when the game recognizes it)
Hell, yes! Animationlock is also terrible, when you are switching from ranged to sword and board. Takes forever to switch, your character first seems to go into a stand, and then melee pose before your ability starts off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...increase in level so we can increase in skill...I didn't remember that "Fighter 4" was a pre-requisite for anything; I thought it was just book-keeping, classification short-hand, and bragging-rights. Is there a mechanical reason to bother with Role levels, when one can instead concentrate on earning more levels in Hit Points, Dragoon, and Base Attack Bonus?
It feels as if they could move even further away from the traditional "Classes" by simply removing those Achievements from the game entirely. Having the word "Fighter" not exist in PFO would handily address some of the "it's not Classless" argument.
Right now, you are correct on most parts. You do not see the prereqs. That is because they are off for the OR tech. It will be back on once they are complete with the coding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the "OR" pieces currently suppressed are the ones requiring certain Armour Feats or Class Features while not recognising others. We know the devs have more plans for "OR" code after it works, but I don't recall hearing what those plans are.
I wasn't aware of any pre-requisite, "OR" or otherwise, that we'd heard involving Role-levels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks, I'd not noticed that. I wonder why the "OR" code is involved?
I can see them suppressing Fighter 4 requiring Unbreakable if Dragoon's going to be acceptable later, but if both Unbreakable and Dragoon require certain levels of Fighter, I'm surprised they bothered to suppress that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because they had it set up that, to increase fighter you must increase Unbreakable and Heavy Weapons Expert... you had no choice but to raise these even if you wanted Dragoon and Archer or Axe or whatever.
All the classes were that way. But also to have a certain level in Dragoon, you needed to be a certain level in fighter. I believe there were other skills, but cannot remember.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last night I was looking to train HP 7. I found that I needed to boost up my Con to 11 or 12 in order to get there.
I started looking at the pre refs for increasing Con. First I needed martial 15, so off to grind some mobs using Long Sword. Then I found that I had to increase Mining. Off to go mine some rocks.
Now I'm told that I need to train several gathering / refining / crafting skills to 5. I'm waiting to see how long I go before I have to get Divine achievements and train Cleric feats in order to unlock Rogue 9 (I exaggerate of course, but not by much).
I was literally looking a 3 or 4 skills that I was being blocked from getting because of the attributes needed (I'm a Fight 6 / Rogue 7). Not only would I have to have the xp for the skills, but achievements and then train to level 5+ a handful of other skills! which also have prerequisite achievements of their own.
Level 8 is still considered low level in my option, just a bit above lower third.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any suggestions how they could enforce power-growth regulation more appropriately? You do understand why that is important I assume.
Time and social activity. 2.5 years of exp is the same for everyone, it keeps the game at a regular pace.
As for keeping power in check, if all you have is starter gear, your 2.5 year vet is going to get stomped on pretty hard by people in T2 gear with matching keywords. That's the game I felt was advertised from the beginning, and it still makes the most sense to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any suggestions how they could enforce power-growth regulation more appropriately? You do understand why that is important I assume.
They could have a parallel character attribute development path, in which every stat could be increased in full point increments for an (increasing) xp cost. The cost of this path has to account for the fact that min-maxing players will dip into the other skills when they see it is in their interest, so the attribute-only path might not end up being the most xp-cost effective, but it would be the simplest.
I think the goal should be that most single-role characters: a pure fighter or a pure commoner/refiner, for example, should be able to max their role (skill 20 or the role achievement) with at least 85%* of their xp spent on their role. There could be exceptions, of course - essence gatherers and manipulators might need to boost attributes as a wizard - but the exceptions should be pretty clear.
* 85% is just a stab in the dark. It might be 90%, or 80%, or whatever, but not 60%. It should be a known target number.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Any suggestions how they could enforce power-growth regulation more appropriately? You do understand why that is important I assume.
The problem is you don't understand that it's not.
The power-growth is regulated by the distribution of XP over time. It's not a problem in EvE, I don't see why it would be a problem here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Time and social activity. 2.5 years of exp is the same for everyone, it keeps the game at a regular pace.
The devs have said they don't want to use the rate of XP gain by itself to constrain growth. They also deliberately decided to remove the possibility of advancing in a narrow path to high levels. The Ability Score, Achievement, and Feat Requirements force players to diversify instead of just rocketing to the highest levels of a particular Role.
Think of it like being forced to take some Math even if you're a Liberal Arts Major. You may not like it, and you may think it's stupid, and you may not ever even use it, but you have to take it to get the degree.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The devs have said they don't want to use the rate of XP gain by itself to constrain growth.
Except they DO. I don't care what they say, that's what it is, they just add a second layer with grind. they are using two different systems meant to the same objective, by getting the inconvenient of both, without any advantages for anyone. That's bad design.
Think of it like being forced to take some Math even if you're a Liberal Arts Major. You may not like it, and you may think it's stupid, and you may not ever even use it, but you have to take it to get the degree.
I don't know in your country, but in mine, we don't do maths when we are studying arts.
And it's a game, not real life.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's bad design.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
As I understand it, the design goal is to block Characters from reaching high levels in a narrowly-focused Role faster than the devs have planned for. The Rate of XP Gain is balanced to allow a Character to reach high levels of a reasonably diverse Role within 2.5 years. However, that same Rate of XP Gain would allow a narrowly-focused Role to reach those high levels much more quickly, if not for other constraints.
Are you saying the design goal is bad?
Are you saying the Rate of XP Gain should be adjusted so that Characters can only reach high levels in a narrowly-focused Role in 2.5 years?
Are you saying those "other constraints" are poorly implemented? If so, what other constraints would you propose to accomplish the design goal?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's bad design.Thanks for sharing your opinion.
As I understand it, the design goal is to block Characters from reaching high levels in a narrowly-focused Role faster than the devs have planned for. The Rate of XP Gain is balanced to allow a Character to reach high levels of a reasonably diverse Role within 2.5 years. However, that same Rate of XP Gain would allow a narrowly-focused Role to reach those high levels much more quickly, if not for other constraints.
Are you saying the design goal is bad?
Are you saying the Rate of XP Gain should be adjusted so that Characters can only reach high levels in a narrowly-focused Role in 2.5 years?
Are you saying those "other constraints" are poorly implemented? If so, what other constraints would you propose to accomplish the design goal?
I'm in agreement with the developers that there should be some sort of gate which blocks players from maxing out too quickly. However, I feel their current system is messy, does not reflect the vision "I" have for my character and does not coincide with the general definition of a sandbox game.
I do not want to be forced into training miscellaneous skills that do not correspond with my role because it is required to raise an attribute needed to advance.
I do not want to "kill 100 mobs" to be the gateway for my leveling.
I do not want to "collect items" to be the gateway for my leveling.
These gimmicks, in my opinion, do not belong in a sandbox game.
These are my opinions alone and do not reflect those of my company and/or allies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm in agreement with the developers that there should be some sort of gate which blocks players from maxing out too quickly. However...
I do not want to be forced into training miscellaneous skills...
I do not want to "kill 100 mobs"...
I do not want to "collect items"...
Do you have any suggestions for other ways to accomplish the design goal?
That will consequently make it really rough on folks who want to diversify, and seems to me like it would result in a strong incentive to create a separate alt for everything you want to do."
Maybe it should be tough to advance quickly in many areas?
There is a reason for the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you have any suggestions for other ways to accomplish the design goal?I'm in agreement with the developers that there should be some sort of gate which blocks players from maxing out too quickly. However...
I do not want to be forced into training miscellaneous skills...
I do not want to "kill 100 mobs"...
I do not want to "collect items"...
When you quote me you have to remember to put in the important stuff silly-willy, especially for my first point about miscellaneous skills. I do not want to train miscellaneous skills that have nothing to do with my role as a wizard in order to raise attributes which will then allow me to progress.
There are many substitutes to the achievement system in Pathfinder Online. Take for example, instituting a rate-over-time system, also known as "ROT." This system, which was used on the Siege Perilous server in Ultima Online, limits the maximum skill points a player could earn per day:
Skill points for skills under 70 points will gain normally.
Skill points for skills between 70 and 79.9 points will gain a maximum of 3.6 points total per day, with a minimum of 5 minutes between point gained.
Skill points for skills between 80 and 98.9 points will gain a maximum of 2 points total per day, with a minimum of 10 minutes between point gained.
Skill points for skills 99.0 points and up will gain a maximum of 2 points total per day, with a minimum of 15 minutes between point gained.
Note: These numbers are from Ultima Online which had skill levels from 1-100.
That is just one example but there are obviously many avenues Goblinworks could choose that did not include grindy kill quests or achievements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you have any suggestions for other ways to accomplish the design goal?I'm in agreement with the developers that there should be some sort of gate which blocks players from maxing out too quickly. However...
I do not want to be forced into training miscellaneous skills...
I do not want to "kill 100 mobs"...
I do not want to "collect items"...
I think it will be hard to think up other ways that the devs haven't thought of themselves already. They are smart.
However I do think the path that GW has set out for the average player/character is too far into the future, is too long. I know PFO is supposed to be a game that is going to grow and last forever(like Eve) but I feel that the devs should think in Months, not Years, when it comes to character progression itself. I will not call their current drawn-out progression path, greed, because frankly, I think they will make a lot more money if they shorten the progression.
So instead of thinking up other ways, I would tone down the achievement requirements big time and have the Max tier in a Skill cost much less XP total. So that players could comfortably max out a single role in a year.
My reasons:
- Faster progression is just plain fun. We all love the skinnerbox, and we would rather earn a pellet every hour then every day.
- There are *so many* roles/skills to chase after. Even with a max role in one year, there are still many other roles/skills that you could progress in with that single character. And over time there will be more. There will always be more. I realize some players will figure they are "ready" with their character after that year, and they may be unhappy about the fact they still have to pay to play (and get xp for unwanted skills) but that still is better then trying to keep the player paying by drawing out the road. ALso see my last point.
- This game is about so much more then Characterprogression. Needless to sum up all the goodness that this game will bring next to leveling up a toon, we all know that. People will not immediately quit this game after they reach max in their favorite role.
- Easier to catch up for new players. This speaks for itself.
- And lastly, an idea to keep both veterans playing, and give new players a way to catch up more easily: let players be able to purchase an entire role or skill-package from a veteran-player. The veteran loses those skills, the new player gains them, brokered by GW. People may say that GW would undercut their own income with this, but no more so then when people who buy an entire character or account from another player. And in the latter case, the seller may be more inclined to stop playing (and paying)alltogether, while if he is allowed to sell *parts* from his character, he may be enticed to keep playing.
Ryan already stated that they expect a market in characters being sold, so they better prepare for it, instead of battle it. This could actually keep long-time veterans that have a LOT of skills accumulated interested in the game for other reasons: selling of (unwanted) parts of their char and/or make a buck at the same time. For this feature alone, it would be wise to untangle the skill-reqs. :D Restrictions should apply so that people can not dump a single skill to another player too easily.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... a rate-over-time system, also known as "ROT." This system.. limits the maximum skill points a player could earn per day...
This sounds exactly like the Rate of XP Gain system we already have.
Does that mean you also would answer "Yes" to the question:
Are you saying the Rate of XP Gain should be adjusted so that Characters can only reach high levels in a narrowly-focused Role in 2.5 years?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I consider EVE's system to be flawed. The fact that you can just pay for training, logging in increasingly infrequently as you train skills that have longer and longer windows, and doing nothing when you conduct those periodic logins to reset your skill queue is, in my opinion, bad for the game.
In fact, the reason that EVE did not even have a skill queue until Apocrypha was because the designers understood that forcing players to log in regularly was a necessity to keep them engaged with the game. The compromise for the current skill queue design was hard fought and many people still think it was a mistake.
The risk is that players who are paying, but not truly engaged, are fragile. They're more likely to quit than someone who has something meaningful to do in the game on a regular basis. It's much easier to say to yourself when you look at your monthly credit card bill "why am I paying this $15 for doing nothing?"
Infrequent logins also mean that player's clients become woefully out of date very quickly, which can generate all sorts of customer service headaches. It also means that if your credit card fails to bill for some reason and you ignore emails about the problem (most such emails are ignored) you may in fact not be getting the training you thought you were getting and when you do log in, finally, and discover that due to a payment failure you missed months of skill points, it's pretty easy to imagine that you might just quit right there on the spot.
I believe that you must be playing the game to be a player of the game. I believe in having a system which reinforces that design philosophy. We've been very up front about this from day one - you do not become more powerful simply through the passage of time. You become more powerful through succeeding in doing meaningful things in game, AND the passage of time.
I shouldn't have to say it but apparently I do. You're looking at the minimum viable product for the Achievement feature. It does the minimum required to be viable. In a year we'll have a more robust system. In three years we'll have a system so robust you couldn't imagine the game without it. But today, it's just very simple. Complaining about the design based on the current minimum function is poor criticism technique.
You don't want to do anything but let time pass to become more powerful? That's a legit critique. I disagree, so you lose that argument. But I respect you for making the argument. But saying that because the tiny handful of Achievements we've implemented are boring or grindy means the design paradigm is flawed doesn't move me very much.