Hi folks,
One experienced PCGen data monkey as requested. I'm on limited time today, if you can send the particulars to my contact email - help@pcgen.org or drew0500@yahoo.com that'd be awesome.
Cheers,
Andrew Maitland
PCGen Data Chimp
As someone with hard copies of both Pact Magics I'm unsure how I feel. How much of this product would be retreading? How much would change? Basically how handy will my current Pact Magic books remain if I get this product?
(Admittedly I'm hypocritical because I liked Ultimate Psionics because I did not have the previous books and I only had to get one book.)
As someone with hard copies of both Pact Magics I'm unsure how I feel. How much of this product would be retreading? How much would change? Basically how handy will my current Pact Magic books remain if I get this product?
(Admittedly I'm hypocritical because I liked Ultimate Psionics because I did not have the previous books and I only had to get one book.)
Excellent question.
From Volume 1
— The occultist's ability progression has been changed so the class doesn't have dead levels. Additionally, constellation aspects got a power increase and binder secrets are a core part of the class instead of an add-on. (They're as revelations are to oracles instead of bardic masterpieces to bards, which is what they currently are.)
— All of the archetypes have changed somewhat. One of the most common complaints of Pact Magic Unbound from what we'll call the "silent majority" is that pact magic archetypes for base and core classes are complicated because not only do they add this entirely new resource system to the class, but they also significantly alter many class features. As a result, most of these classes have been streamlined to make them more like their base class equivalent, but there is always an opt-in to get back whatever cool powers they originally had. For example, the Foe Reaper ranger doesn't have Foe-Reaping Strike as a baseline class feature anymore. Instead, its now an Occult Feat with Furious Strike and Life-Stealing Strike as prerequisites. This section more than any other is up for discussion when the playtest rolls around, however.
— Most of the feats are unchanged, but the typos that plagued a few of them have been fixed. For a most part, you're looking at updated language.
— The first half of Chapter 3 (the binding rules) is basically unchanged. The big difference is that Knowledge Tasks (from Volume 2) are now a core part of the system and the information about the constellations and the Spirit Realm has been moved to Chapter 7 – Esoteria. Additionally, the chapter starts with two sidebars that display a "definition of terms" for all of the little keywords we use in Pact Magic, like 'exorcise,' 'constellation,' and 'suppress.' Basically, I took a chapter that was already praised for its accessibility and made it even more accessible.
— Most of the spirits from Volume 1 have been updated in some way. Whether it is a linguistic clean-up of their legend, a simplification of a granted ability, or in some cases, significant changes to improve the spirit's usefulness. (For example, Aza'azati's acidic gout major granted ability now does d6s of damage instead of d4s.)
From Volume 2
— See Archetypes, above.
— The Skills section of Chapter 2 in this book is being moved to Chapter 7. It fits better under Esoteria.
— See spirits, above, except fewer Volume 2 spirits were significantly changed.
— The spells section is mostly untouched, although there is some language clean-up going on there, especially for the aging spells.
— The magic items section is getting an expansion. More magic weapons and armor that have to do with pact magic, specifically.
— There's a new trait and one of the occult history options was cleaned up a little, but otherwise the background generator is unchanged.
— Pact Maladies got a significant overhaul. They function more like spellblights now in that there are minor and major versions of them. They still stagger their full awfulness over a period of time, however. This change has lead to a doubling in the number of available pact maladies; there's now 17 instead of 7 or 8.
— I'm *thinking* about removing the Spirit-Touched Template from this book, as most of the spells and class options that dealt with it in Volume 2 were adjusted to never mention it. Overall, I'm of the opinion that allowing players to gain templates is probably a bad idea.
Regarding other classes getting too much power from the archetypes, I have this suggestion. For the archetypes, when binding a spirit of the maximum possible level available, they only gain two minor powers (for PCs, one chosen by the player, the other by the DM). When the character reaches a level 3 above that required to bind the spirit, the character gains full access (including the remaining minor powers and the major power).
For example, a 1st level bard might bind Aza’ati. They would gain two minor powers. Upon reaching 4th level, the bard can bind Aza’ati and gain full access (ie 4 minor powers, the major power), OR bind a level 2 spirit and gain access only to two of its minor powers.
Carried forward, this means that under your rules, the 16th level bard could bind any level 5 spirit with full access, or a level 6 spirit and gain two minor powers, and get full access to the level 6 spirits at level 19.Sound good?
I'd rather see how the current model holds up in playtesting before messing with it. ;-)
I've also sent you a PM about something.
Replied.
Thanks.
When is the kickstarter? I want this book yesterday! ;)
Not for a while yet. My target Kickstarter period is early 2015, but Dario and I are still in the planning stages.
Well, shoot. I literally bought Pact Magic Unbound vol. 1 yesterday.
Still pretty excited and will most likely support the Kickstarter. New art, more spirits, no dead levels - sounds like a plan.
Well, shoot. I literally bought Pact Magic Unbound vol. 1 yesterday.
Still pretty excited and will most likely support the Kickstarter. New art, more spirits, no dead levels - sounds like a plan.
That's not a bad thing. The book itself won't likely reach consumer hands for a good few months. You didn't want to wait a whole year, now do you? :D
No offense but either way I'm not likely to get this product considering that I got both Pact Magics. I'm sure the new product will be a superior product with needed tweaks and changes but the pact magic books were solid products. At best I'd eventually get it when my hard copies of vol- and 2 get ratty.
No offense but either way I'm not likely to get this product considering that I got both Pact Magics. I'm sure the new product will be a superior product with needed tweaks and changes but the pact magic books were solid products. At best I'd eventually get it when my hard copies of vol- and 2 get ratty.
I would wait to make any decisions until you see exactly what we're doing with this book. We'll be sharing more in time, but it is difficult to explain the scope of this compilation without actually having tested, finished pages of product to show to explain it.
For me, no Mythic support is a dealbreaker on pledging. I'd just wait for the separate Mythic book if you do one.
I don't mean to sound like a drug overlord (I'm sure it'll come out that way), but if Dario and I invest a lot of our own resources into this product and nothing comes of it, it could potentially have a negative impact on our future Pact Magic releases.
Mythic is an EXTREMELY niche product, especially considering that it is an optional subsystem that has received mixed reviews from critics. Devoting an entire hardcover book to Mythic is dangerous, even more so when you're as small and relatively unknown as Radiance House. Further complicating the issue is that the Mythic rules were designed to impact virtually every aspect of character creation. We would have to design Mythic versions of nearly all of our feats, enough path abilities to properly support pact magic users, AND we would likely have to develop mythic options for all of our soon-to-be-roster 120-ish roster of spirits.
Withholding funding from this product in hopes of trying to force its authors to add a specific, niche product to the book is not a good tactic. As mentioned in my example with Malwing above, you might not get what you want at all if the precursor project fails.
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(1) Is there any other sites where you will be posting updates for Pact Magic Unleashed? (Facebook, Radiance House website?)
I post spoilers about things I'm working on all the time on our Pact Magic Facebook Group. They actually knew about this project a about a month before I made this thread. The latest thing I posted there was the tidbit that I rewrote the aging spells (namely alter age and siphon age) to fit better with Golarion, which included the addition of four pact magic themed alchemical power components. They are:
— Atlan Voidstone (Implied to be what Damian Darkstar's ship is made out of.)
— Crystallized Pain (Getting a heavy expansion in this book in general.)
— Desert Spice (Also a wondrous item.)
— Solar Orchid (For Paizo fans everywhere. Augments aging spells to make them last longer.)
(2) Will you also be utilizing any of the content from Villains of Pact Magic? Maybe updating the spirits and classes?
As always, the classes from Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic serve to inspire my archetype design whenever possible. Spirit-wise, this book has a ridiculous number of spirits. There's one spirit for every constellation at every level, plus one entirely new "constellation" called starless spirits. In short, there's something like 126 spirits in the book baseline and that number includes updates to every spirit ever written in Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic. Except for anima spirits and epic spirits.
Let me know because my DM allowed me to use your Occultist class of our upcoming low-magic, future/space campaign that we will be podcasting.
Nice! The occultist is getting a pretty big update in the next book, so if your GM permits, you might have some updating to do when this book rolls around. As I've mentioned, I'm intending this book to be to Pact Magic Unbound as 3.5 Edition D&D was to 3.0 Edition; compatible, but overall cleaner and better streamlined.
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With Paizo creating an Occultist for Occult Adventures, should the Pact Magic Occultist be renamed?
I'm not planning on renaming it. There are a finite number of words for "magic" in the English language and I don't want to set a precedent where I rename the core class of this system every time Paizo comes out with a new class. Unless I break standard naming conventions and either A) make up a word or B) use a two-word name for the class, it will happen sooner or later.
The beauty of it is that in denotation, an "occultist" is simply someone who practices occultism. Occultism is "the practice of magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies." So by that definition, every spellcasting class ever published is an "occultist."
That said, I'll likely include a note somewhere that you can call the class a "ravaged occultist" if you want to or something. I'm not even sure how I'll be incorporating Occult Adventures into the world of Pact Magic yet.
Any update on this project?
Edit: In defense of my previous suggestion of "Ultimate Pact Magic", I dont view the world "ultimate" as necessarily pertaining to mean "final", but rather to mean something more akin to "definitive", as in this book would be THE definitive book to have for Pact Magic, much how Ultimate Psionics is the the definitive book for psionics, and any further releases will be built upon that foundation. It sets the baseline for the entire system, and people are drawn to books that appear all encompassing, where they get the most bang for their buck. Plus, again, following Paizos naming scheme cant be called a bad marketing decision.
Anyway, mini rant over, looking forward to hearing whats in store.
Any update on this project?
Edit: In defense of my previous suggestion of "Ultimate Pact Magic", I dont view the world "ultimate" as necessarily pertaining to mean "final", but rather to mean something more akin to "definitive", as in this book would be THE definitive book to have for Pact Magic, much how Ultimate Psionics is the the definitive book for psionics, and any further releases will be built upon that foundation. It sets the baseline for the entire system, and people are drawn to books that appear all encompassing, where they get the most bang for their buck. Plus, again, following Paizos naming scheme cant be called a bad marketing decision.
Anyway, mini rant over, looking forward to hearing whats in store.
We're sending the playtest document over to the playtesters this week.
How we're going to handle playtesting is that our closed playtesters will get first crack at the new material, then when they're done (and assuming we fund) the Kickstarter backers will also get the new material to look over and playtest if they choose, assuming they pledge at a certain goal or higher. (The numbers are still being worked out, but it should come to pass that if you pledged enough to get the PDF or higher, you're entitled to join the playtest.)
How is Pact Magic and the Occultist different to the upcoming Occult Adventures from Paizo? They appear to conceptually be sharing the same space (even going so far as to have the same name). Mechanically will they be extremely different?
I realize Pact Magic was first, but unfortunately I've learned of them at the same time. I'm hesitant to use Ultimate Psionics as it's extremely different to everything else in Pathfinder, but on the other hand if the Pact Magic Occultist is the same as the OA Occultist why bother with the Pact Magic one?
It very much feels like a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario.
Actually, the closest Occult Adventures class that mechanically resembles the Pact Magic Occultist is the Medium (and the Spiritualist somewhat), not the class that shares its namesake.
That said, I'm not sure a name change would be a horrible idea, if only so the class and system can maintain its own identity, otherwise I can see potential confusion on the horizon. But a new name would need to be as close to equally fitting and compelling as "Occultist". Though I wouldnt want it changed if it would result in a "gamey" name, like Warblade, Battlemind, Soulborn, etc (I hate those).
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How is Pact Magic and the Occultist different to the upcoming Occult Adventures from Paizo? They appear to conceptually be sharing the same space (even going so far as to have the same name). Mechanically will they be extremely different?
The Pact Magic occultist is nothing like the Occult Adventures occultist, save for having the same name. The Pact Magic occultist binds spirits to her soul in order to gain supernatural abilities. The Occult Adventures occultist invokes an array of esoteric, otherworldly items in order to gain magical powers. (Specifically, psychic spells). Our occultist has absolutely nothing to do with implements or spell schools. About the only design space they share is that both characters draw magic circles. But where Occult Adventures occultists draw circles to protect themselves (and others) from outsiders, Pact Magic occultists draw magic circles to summon otherworldly entities into this world.
In terms of mechanics, the Pact Magic Occultist is more similar to the Occult Adventures Medium, as both characters invoke spirits for mystic powers. However, there are key differences between them. First, the PMO is all about individuals. Each spirit is a unique entity with its own supernatural powers were the OAM has 54 spirits that are designed to be generic, "this can be anyone" spirits. Second, the PMO has scaling spirit levels where the OAM's spirits are all available at 1st level. Finally, the PMO isn't a spellcaster (and is balanced around that) while the OAM is a 4-level psychic spellcaster.
For one final point, the concept of binding spirits to one's self for power is one class in Occult Adventures. Maybe a few archetypes here or there, too. The Pact Magic book will be about 300 pages long (longer with stretch goals) and not only has class mechanics to go with it, but magic items, spells, special abilities, a background generator, and more. The scope of the Medium at launch will pale in comparison to the Occultist simply because we have so many more years of development and so many more pages devoted to making the idea awesome.
Also, as you've noted before, "Will they be different?" isn't the right question. "Are they different" is the question you should ask, because Pact Magic Unbound is about two years older than Occult Adventures. (Three by the time its released in July.) And I think our fans will agree that Occult Adventures is many things, but it isn't pact magic.
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Quick update: Dario and I just sent the Alpha version of what will be our Kickstarter Product to our playtesters. They should finish up around the end of January, and so far we're relatively on-course to begin our Kickstarter around them as well. We won't start until we're satisfied with our playtesting so we have something to show off when we're trying to convince our fans (and people who aren't our fans yet) to invest in us.
Also, Dario and I finally decided on the name for the final product: Pact Magic Unbound: Grimoire of Lost Souls.
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That said, I'm not sure a name change would be a horrible idea, if only so the class and system can maintain its own identity, otherwise I can see potential confusion on the horizon.
I completely agree with you that Paizo should change their Occultist name to something not currently used in Pathfinder, but it is (was?) better to post that suggestion on the Occult Adventures playtest forum.
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I cannot wait for the kickstarter. a superpretty hardcover would be really tempting for me. I really appreciated the archetype for alchemists in volume 2, are you planning for any more pathfinder class archetypes or feats for pact magic?
There will be archetypes for every Advanced Class Guide class in the new book. And because it's New Year's Day, here's a list of all of the new archetypes that are currently in the book, in alphabetical order.
Alchemical Meister
Bloodsworn Binder
Eldritch Jailer
Esoteric Dilettante
Mad Cultist
Occult Bruiser
Occult Exploiter
Occult Investigator
Occult Shaman
Occult Scourer
Pactsworn Assassin
Pactsworn Hunter
Pactsworn Warpriest
Seal-Bound Sorcerer
Shadow Templar
Soul Screamer
Thaumaturge
I say "currently" because I just took inventory on the artwork that we need (which is the reason that we're running the Kickstarter in February in the first place) and Chapter 1 is VERY loaded with potential pieces. I might ultimately end up writing some more class options in order to reduce the amount of artwork that we need in that chapter, but we'll see. As is, that last covers every Advanced Class Guide class at least once (there's at least one ACG class that has two archetypes) and it also includes a decent number of new archetypes for the Occultist class.
Also, the following archetypes were renamed from their previous iterations in order to make them match the source material's theme better.
Warshade (Fighter) ---> Warbinder
We made the warshade a bit more generic; instead of getting his own, personal list of fighter-exclusive powers all of the old "seals of darkness" were transformed into binder secrets. In its place, the warshade can pick binder secrets instead of bonus feats. Ultimately, it makes the archetype more flexible and more fun, but it didn't really warrant the name "warshade" anymore, so we decided to make a callback to Secrets of Pact Magic and rename it the "warbinder." But yeah, if you were playing a warshade, you're getting a buff in the long run. Sometimes fighters DO get nice things!
Untouchable (Rogue) ---> Fringe Binder
We changed this one for two reasons: 1) Having a rogue archetype called "the untouchable" made it difficult to imagine being a rogue binder as a good thing in a setting where pact magic was everywhere and accepted. We're trying not to make too many setting choices for you on how pact magic is viewed, we're simply trying to give you the history. 2) We cleaned up the archetype so ninjas actually qualify for it, and given Eastern theology (especially Japanese), having an archetype called the "untouchable" doesn't really mesh that well with oriental ideology. (On another note, we also cleaned up the pactsworn knight so samurai can take that archetype.)
Spirit Drudge (Witch) ---> Weird Witch
This change happened because EVERYONE asked me what the heck a drudge was. And when I told someone that it was basically a henchman / servant, they'd go, "Why do I want to play that?!" So yeah, thematic reasons only. I think weird witch conveys the theme much better than spirit drudge does. Plus I love figurative language. ;-)
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That said, I'm not sure a name change would be a horrible idea, if only so the class and system can maintain its own identity, otherwise I can see potential confusion on the horizon.I completely agree with you that Paizo should change their Occultist name to something not currently used in Pathfinder, but it is (was?) better to post that suggestion on the Occult Adventures playtest forum.
I think it WAS "suggested" on the playtest forums (and humorously I saw a small minority of people who said that our pact magic was more interesting than the medium's spirit binding; thanks, guys!) but at the same time I respect the need to have a class called "occultist" in a book called OCCULT Adventures.
As anyone who purchases my Everyman Gaming products (or who has purchased Age of Electrotech) knows, I personally don't let other 3PP determine for me what I should and should not do, so I respect Paizo's need to cater to its fanbase. It just so happens that their fanbase happens to be just about everyone in our community.
I think Dario and I settled on the alternate name for the occultist. Early on in the book, there's going to be a blurb about how the word "occultist" is a very common name and means a lot of things, so if you feel the need to "specify" one occultist from another, you can call the class the "spirit bound" or the "spirit bound occultist." But everywhere else in the book, the class's name will be "occultist" and will be referred to as such.
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And finally, because its New Years Day, I figured that I'll share the product name that Dario and I finally settled on for the new Pact Magic product here.
2) We cleaned up the archetype so ninjas actually qualify for it, and given Eastern theology (especially Japanese), having an archetype called the "untouchable" doesn't really mesh that well with oriental ideology.
On the other hand... I don't know offhand whether or not any historical ninja clans arose from burakumin/eta society, but it wouldn't surprise me.
2) We cleaned up the archetype so ninjas actually qualify for it, and given Eastern theology (especially Japanese), having an archetype called the "untouchable" doesn't really mesh that well with oriental ideology.On the other hand... I don't know offhand whether or not any historical ninja clans arose from burakumin/eta society, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Good point, but it wouldn't have been an exception in Japanese society rather than a rule, and by changing the archetype's name you can be in that outcast clan if you want to, or you could be in an oriental Naruto-style village that's well respected for its supernatural powers. Empowering GMs by keeping flavor flexible is a key goal of Grimoire of Lost Souls.
As an aside, I'm expecting my first batch of playtest feedback today or tomorrow. I'll pass on anything exceptionally cool or interesting I've learned, but from the sounds of it I might have overwhelmed the group with the occult awesomeness of the book. (From what I hear, Amora Game specifically picked people who have never played with Pact Magic before for our playtest. xD )
Wait, unless I've been doing math wrong my entire life, that makes 5 spirits at level 16. I'm okay with that number, but I would like a little confirmation on this, please.) More Spirits, Sooner: While the occultist is still limited to a maximum of four spirits, she gains the ability to bind multiple spirits sooner. Bind additional spirit is now a 4th level class feature for the occultist and is earned every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of four spirits at 16th level.
Note the "thereafter". It's not "1 plus 1 per 4 levels", but "1 plus 1 per 4 levels beyond level 4".
Its a typo. It should be one at first, plus one at 4th and every six levels thereafter, to a maximum of 4 spirits at 16th level.
Its correct in the playtest document. My finders were just being dumb when I teased that.
Ah, OK then. :)
So any news on when to expect the Kickstarter I am certainly interested I just picked up the 3.5 version of the hardcover on ebay and it is great stuff.
So any news on when to expect the Kickstarter I am certainly interested I just picked up the 3.5 version of the hardcover on ebay and it is great stuff.
February! Dario and I are waiting on three things:
A) Contacting artists about their rates and availability. (The vanilla, stretch goal-less version of Grimoire of Lost Souls has been finished for months.)B) Building the Kickstarter page and shooting the video. (That's all on me. Working diligently at it. I really only need to shoot the video at this point.)
C) Getting back the first round of Alpha playtest feedback. (Dario and I partnered up with Amora Game to playtest the product for two months. The first month's playtest feedback is due to my inbox this week. Dario and I contribute a decent amount of the success of Age of Electrotech to our partnering with Amora Game [the technician class wouldn't be wear it is without them] and we're more than willing to wait a short while if it means getting the best possible feedback from our Alpha Playtesters.)
One thing that I will say for certain is that Dario and I are setting the funding bar relatively low so we can offer stretch goals faster. Like I said, the book is done. The Kickstarter is to fund our art commissions for the book, and the funding rewards reflect that heavily. That way we can offer rewards quickly, too.
We're also working on a system where we can reward our backers for helping us spread the word about the Kickstarter with even more additional content. More news about that when it actually goes live, however. ;-)
I never got to check out the previous Pact Magics, but this sounds like an awesome project! I look forward to it.
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Waiting (im)patiently for Alexander to announce the start of the KS! ;)
Hope it starts before I go to bed tonight!
It will not.
The Kickstarter will happen before February's over, but not before next weekend. The reason? Dario is coming to Philadelphia to do a neurology workshop and he's invited me to attend. So for the first time ever, Dario and I are going to be at the same place at the same time. We've decided to shoot our Kickstarter video when we're together.
So yeah, before February's over but not before next weekend.
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As someone who loved the binder in 3.5, I'd love to see what will be in this book. Definitely going to back the kickstarter on this one. i've seen a bit of the books, but i'd love to have just one big compiled book with all sorts of stuff in it.
where would be the best place to make sure I hear about the kickstarter when it pops up? your facebook page?
As someone who loved the binder in 3.5, I'd love to see what will be in this book. Definitely going to back the kickstarter on this one. i've seen a bit of the books, but i'd love to have just one big compiled book with all sorts of stuff in it.
where would be the best place to make sure I hear about the kickstarter when it pops up? your facebook page?
Yes. We will make a big deal everywhere we can, though.
Dotting so that I may better know when the kickstarter does happen.