Goblin Squad Member
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If they follow the EVE trend, anytime training is lost (such as the removal of learning skills) the XP is refunded. Any time XP is gained (Such as when they turned the destroyer and battlecruiser skills in 4 racial destroyer skills and 4 racial battlecruiser skills) you get the advancement for free. Such actions actually were a great boon to older characters who got to take advantage of even wider XP gaps and free partial respecs.
After all, it would be VERY bad policy to take away paid for training time.
CCP only refund the XP if a skill is totally removed. If it morphs into something else or is combined with others into a single skill (which may take a lot less to train than the old skills) or somehow remains in game but does something else and is rendered totally useless to most players and is no longer worth training there is no XP refunds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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750 mobs is around 4000 to 5000 kills. I am sure it is not that high.
You seem to not understand the use of the term:
A mob, mobile or monster is a computer-controlled non-player character (NPC) in a computer game such as an MMORPG[1] or MUD.[2][3] Depending on context, all such characters in a game may be considered "mobs",[4][2] or usage may be limited to hostile NPCs and/or NPCs vulnerable to attack.[1]
When I wrote 750 mob kills, I meant 750 individual kills, not 750 groups of mobs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unlike you, I'm thinking of people other than myself and my current friends, and looking to the future of this game.
I don't really thiNK you are capable of that... This is classic 'I am Andius, I am right, and everyone should listen to me'.
I am working my butt off trying to get a wiki up and running so that people can find the information they need about this game and make their own informed choices. You, on the other hand, are rabble-rousing and spreading false information, trying to sway public opinion your way.
So in only one thing are you correct: you are definitely not like me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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750 mobs is around 4000 to 5000 kills. I am sure it is not that high.You seem to not understand the use of the term:
A mob, mobile or monster is a computer-controlled non-player character (NPC) in a computer game such as an MMORPG[1] or MUD.[2][3] Depending on context, all such characters in a game may be considered "mobs",[4][2] or usage may be limited to hostile NPCs and/or NPCs vulnerable to attack.[1]
When I wrote 750 mob kills, I meant 750 individual kills, not 750 groups of mobs.
Ah OK
So assuming you did just go out to kill things as efficiently as possible by mowing down the newbie goblin spawns at starter towns about 3 to 6 hours depending on how efficient you are. 10 hours for a newer player.
Not that big a grind but still an issue. There needs to be other in game activities. Something like sneak attack kills as a separate tree for rogues or trap setting once it is in game. Even crafting of rogue related items.
I do not think the achievements per se are an issue its just they are far too limited to killing things.
EDIT:
I also believe part of the issue is the XP scaling needs to be harsher. We really should not be getting to level 8 rogue with 2 or 3 weeks XP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you are saying that one can play 5 years with character getting better and slowly better. always something more to strive for.
Even though it is a mathematical impossibility, longer term characters will always be more powerful then new characters, the moment I have a character that can't grow, is the moment the reputation system no longer applies to that character.
As I have said, there are many contradictory systems being proposed by both GW and players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you don't want to wait 2.5 years to unlock Rogue level 8, you need to kill those 500 mobs with one weapon, and another 250 with another weapon.
I don't understand: yes, there are limited ways to advance Achievements--*today*. We've no evidence, however, that today's options are the only ones planned, only that it takes two weeks to change things to add more if it's not part of the update-design at this moment.
We already saw Goblinworks add skeleton-based advancement for Divine Achievements in the latest update; who's to say they won't add more for Subterfuge in the next?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you are saying that one can play 5 years with character getting better and slowly better. always something more to strive for.Even though it is a mathematical impossibility, longer term characters will always be more powerful then new characters, the moment I have a character that can't grow, is the moment the reputation system no longer applies to that character.
As I have said, there are many contradictory systems being proposed by both GW and players.
This just isn't as absolutely true as people keep trying to say.
HP and Power cap, weapons armour and features all cap.The only substantial difference will be versatility. The veteran player will have multiple fighting roles capped and will have access to more role/feats than the new player. Nothing uber about that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We already saw Goblinworks add skeleton-based advancement for Divine Achievements in the latest update; who's to say they won't add more for Subterfuge in the next?
Its worth pointing out those were backdated so you gained Divine Points for any previous skeleton kills as well as new ones after the change. It also means anyone that has killed more than 10 skeletons at any point, even with a shortbow as a rogue, has acquired some divine points.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am working my butt off trying to get a wiki up and running so that people can find the information they need about this game...
You're accusing me of lying but providing no evidence I have done so, and then patting yourself on the back like a martyr for all the work you've done creating resources your alliance uses as chances to get their name out there for recruitment purposes. You're trying to build a wiki which is something the whole community is supposed to work on together but I keep hearing it called TSV's wiki which is why I haven't bothered contributing yet. Why should anyone else put their hard work in on projects you will take all the credit for as a promotional stunt? Classic Everbloom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a thread with only a few commenters so far, we've already had three separate time frames to "uberness" considered acceptable. Regardless on what you consider "uber", there will always be those who consider it too long to achieve, or too short. If they make it 2.5 years, there will be new players who say it should be 18 months, then those who say 6. And others will come in and say it should take 10 years.
Not everyone will play this game the same way. Some will chose to focus on their niche playstyle, others will diversify. The game will never be able to be all things to all players. GW will choose a certain advancement path to a take a certain amount of time as a baseline. Over time, if they feel there is a segment of players they would like to recruit that would want a different advancement track, they will tweak the system in one direction or the other. I suspect it is way to early to tell what type of player segment they want to emphasise. I don't think GW will be in any position to make that determination for a couple of years. Then we'll see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've already proven that you are wrong: I posted my fighter to 20 in 2.5 years build, showing that your 4.5 years to 'capstone' is false.
The wiki is available for free to the public. Also, the information we post there is not our opinion or weighted by favourtism: it is fact regarding the game, as provided by the devs.
Finally, anyone can apply to become a contributor. If your 'feelings' about 'our' alliance are getting in the way of you applying... I'm not sure what you'd like us to do about that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having talked to a few of the people disgruntled about these sort of issues in game I have come to the conclusion its a perspective thing.
For a player that wants to be a "badass PvPer that treats care-bear activities (gathering crafting and PvE) with disdain" the grinding of achievements and waiting 4 years to get to what they see as the "end game" where they can show there PvP elite skillz to their fullest is unacceptable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really wish one thread wouldn't turn into such foolishness. I'm a member of The Seventh Veil and the Everbloom alliance and I joined because the people seemed both interesting and friendly; please stop with the personal attacks.
Your opinions are valid Andius and I agree with many. I also appreciated you sharing the facts and numbers. It's a bummer that you all can't put the pettiness behind you and contribute to a sole resource for the community; hopefully one day that will happen.
Until then I applaud all of you (including members of my alliance) to stop with the petty attacks and agendas as we try to build a game we can all enjoy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having talked to a few of the people disgruntled about these sort of issues in game I have come to the conclusion its a perspective thing.
For a player that wants to be a "badass PvPer that treats care-bear activities (gathering crafting and PvE) with disdain" the grinding of achievements and waiting 4 years to get to what they see as the "end game" where they can show there PvP elite skillz to their fullest is unacceptable.
I have to agree with you 100% my definition of uber is not the same as yours or anyone else's.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having talked to a few of the people disgruntled about these sort of issues in game I have come to the conclusion its a perspective thing.
For a player that wants to be a "badass PvPer that treats care-bear activities (gathering crafting and PvE) with disdain" the grinding of achievements and waiting 4 years to get to what they see as the "end game" where they can show there PvP elite skillz to their fullest is unacceptable.
Speaking as someone who has quit every MMO he's ever played shortly after capping because he's never found end-game content that didn't feel forced, repetitive and boring, I say "sucks to be them." If I get to play five years instead of five months before losing interest, better for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really wish one thread wouldn't turn into such foolishness. I'm a member of The Seventh Veil and the Everbloom alliance and I joined because the people seemed both interesting and friendly; please stop with the personal attacks.
Your opinions are valid Andius and I agree with many. I also appreciated you sharing the facts and numbers. It's a bummer that you all can't put the pettiness behind you and contribute to a sole resource for the community; hopefully one day that will happen.
Until then I applaud all of you (including members of my alliance) to stop with the petty attacks and agendas as we try to build a game we can all enjoy.
I wouldn't get so worked up if his efforts weren't actually harming the dissemination of information regarding the game.
Had this thread's title been: 'Andius' PvP build and how long it will take to get there' instead of what it is, there would have been no problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking as someone who has quit every MMO he's ever played shortly after capping because he's never found end-game content that didn't feel forced, repetitive and boring, I say "sucks to be them." If I get to play five years instead of five months before losing interest, better for me.Having talked to a few of the people disgruntled about these sort of issues in game I have come to the conclusion its a perspective thing.
For a player that wants to be a "badass PvPer that treats care-bear activities (gathering crafting and PvE) with disdain" the grinding of achievements and waiting 4 years to get to what they see as the "end game" where they can show there PvP elite skillz to their fullest is unacceptable.
To be honest I have always been the guy that designs the power builds for other people and then runs around with a random messed up non optimised character because its more fun and more interesting.
There should be room in this game for all types of players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having talked to a few of the people disgruntled about these sort of issues in game I have come to the conclusion its a perspective thing.
For a player that wants to be a "badass PvPer that treats care-bear activities (gathering crafting and PvE) with disdain" the grinding of achievements and waiting 4 years to get to what they see as the "end game" where they can show there PvP elite skillz to their fullest is unacceptable.
On day 1 put my xp into PvP related skills. I am now on an equal footing with the strongest PvPers in the game. I am now ahead of anyone who did not invest all their xp into PvP related skills and everyone who starts the game after me. I am drastically ahead of those who start after me and do not invest all their XP into PvP related skills.
There is my "end game."
Some 4 years.
This isn't about me. This is good for me, and bad for the game. I'm not sure how anyone can fail to understand that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On day 1 put my xp into PvP related skills. I am now on an equal footing with the strongest PvPers in the game. I am now ahead of anyone who did not invest all their xp into PvP related skills and everyone who starts the game after me. I am drastically ahead of those who start after me and do not invest all their XP into PvP related skills.
There is my "end game."
Some 4 years.
This isn't about me. This is good for me, and bad for the game. I'm not sure how anyone can fail to understand that.
I understand what your saying. I'm ok with it being good for you. I just don't agree with your assessment that it is bad for the game. As a player, if I get beat down by you easily because you have put all your xp into pvp for however long, and I haven't, then next time i face you i'll bring more friends ;)
I'm not expecting any combat to be "fair" or balanced. I don't know if GW should even bother trying to balance the roles beyond a rough estimate. I'm not even approaching PFO as having an endgame.
But we're on different wavelengths, so, you know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having talked to a few of the people disgruntled about these sort of issues in game I have come to the conclusion its a perspective thing.
For a player that wants to be a "badass PvPer that treats care-bear activities (gathering crafting and PvE) with disdain" the grinding of achievements and waiting 4 years to get to what they see as the "end game" where they can show there PvP elite skillz to their fullest is unacceptable.
On day 1 put my xp into PvP related skills. I am now on an equal footing with the strongest PvPers in the game. I am now ahead of anyone who did not invest all their xp into PvP related skills and everyone who starts the game after me. I am drastically ahead of those who start after me and do not invest all their XP into PvP related skills.
There is my "end game."
Some 4 years.
This isn't about me. This is good for me, and bad for the game. I'm not sure how anyone can fail to understand that.
Andius, I'm a bit confused by your problem with this.
If someone has been int he game for a lot less time than I have, and they have not dedicated the amount of experience points towards PVp focused skills / feats, then they should be significantly weaker than me.
Now, where the differential is not so extreme, tactics or numbers will be the difference maker. In an even more narrow differential, gear might play a factor.
But if you are suggesting that a 6 month old character should be in anyway on par with a 2.5 year old character (assuming both are PVP focused) than that will kill the game, not the opposite.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the point, which is extremely valid, is that if anyone joins after him and equally puts all of their xp into pvp that person will never be as good.
This is worrying, and something that would prevent a lot of potential players from ever joining. It's the opposite of a system that rewards skill and/or dedication to mastery.
If I have been playing and developing my character for 3 years, and you only for 6 months, I have dedicated 2.5 more years to my character than you have.
You should not be anywhere near my character's skills / feats level or item tiers than mine.
This of course is assuming we are pursuing the same goals / roles and I have had a 2.5 year head start on your character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you really don't understand how this will be bad for the game's ability to attract new subscribers? That no matter how good you are, you will always be behind someone that happened to notice a kickstarter was happening?
That's EVE.
But in reality in EVE, once your past the first 6 months it effectively makes little difference, its player knowledge and team work that matter in most small gang situations not age of the character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not expecting any combat to be "fair" or balanced. I don't know if GW should even bother trying to balance the roles beyond a rough estimate. I'm not even approaching PFO as having an endgame.
It's not about "fair" and "balanced" and having an "endgame." Have you ever lead a group of new players in a brutal environment like this? I have. And yes we zerged our enemies, and were pretty successful at it most of the time.
But even among our group "tired of fighing these maxed out vets" was a pretty common complaint among those who left, and among the many other newb groups we had as allies and friends the sentiment was even more common. Even given as a reason for entire groups dissolving and leaving the game.
Darkfall's grind time wasn't solid like PFO's since XP was skill useage base but to get maxed in all the skills that mattered probably would have taken about 2.5 years.
Like in PFO if a newb landed a hit on a vet it did real damage. And the time needed to get to where that was fairly noteable if still far lesser damage wasn't all that long.
This isn't like EVE where you can hide in high sec until you are ready to go fight in null. I'm sure you've noticed the safezones are not nearly as large or safe as EVE's high sec.
If people are suffering too much at the hands of veterans they will quit the game. Personally I'd like to see this be the kind of game that when a new group joins up they don't have to prostrate themselves at the feet of the veteran alliance and beg their protection to get anywhere. Nor do they have to come in the kind of numbers Goon Swarm did. That a smart, active, determined group can carve out a name for themselves.
Seeing that happen is the endgame for me.
These groups may be protected from griefing but they won't be protected from war. They need the ability to protect themselves witout 10,000 players and without waiting forever. Yeah the deck is going to be stacked against them in that regard but we don't have to make it entirely one sided.
That's the wavelength I've been on since I came here. The longer it takes to be competitive against veterans in PvP, the farther that is from reality. It really saddens me to see the groups that should be championing their cause trying to extend the "gool ol' boys bonus" for as many years as they possibly can. Seriously. How is 2.5 years not long enough of a headstart for anyone?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you really don't understand how this will be bad for the game's ability to attract new subscribers? That no matter how good you are, you will always be behind someone that happened to notice a kickstarter was happening?
No I don't see it because that is not how MMOs work. In MMOs, the longer you have played it, the more powerful your character becomes (from a variety of factors, including player ability).
At some point you will narrow that gap, but it may take a long while if the skill / feats keep on increasing during that time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you really don't understand how this will be bad for the game's ability to attract new subscribers? That no matter how good you are, you will always be behind someone that happened to notice a kickstarter was happening?That's EVE.
But in reality in EVE, once your past the first 6 months it effectively makes little difference, its player knowledge and team work that matter in most small gang situations not age of the character.
EVE has a shorter ladder to climb to "Master a Role".
If you choose to be the best Frigate Pilot you can be:
1. Core Competency Elite (all core skills to level V)
2. Frigate (by race) V
3. Small Weapons (by type) V
4. Navigation Skills (all to V)
5. Passive Defense (all to V)
6. Active Defense (all V)
7. Targeting (Most skills to V)
8. Electronics Warfare (Most to V)
9. Cloaking V
10. Advanced Frigate V
11. Ship Command V
12. Small Weapon Specialization V (by type)
13. Gunnery (all skills to V)
14. Missiles (all and by type) V
It has been a long time since I have mastered Frigates, and all other sub-capital ships, but I think it takes closer to a year.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you really don't understand how this will be bad for the game's ability to attract new subscribers? That no matter how good you are, you will always be behind someone that happened to notice a kickstarter was happening?
I'm not sure it will be that bad. The guy with 4.5 years in will not be hugely different than the guy with 2.5 years in. Both can wear Tier 3 armor, both can have only 6 attacks on their attack bar. They might have the same hp and combat bonuses.
There is more difference between the fighter 20 at 2.5 years and the fighter 14 (or is it 15?) at something like 10-12 months. But both of those can wear Tier 3 gear.
And there's some difference between fighter 14s and fighter 8s. A handful of fighter 8s, with 6-9 weeks (?) time in game, in Tier 2 gear, might be a real threat to a fighter 14.
I think, no matter how good someone is, there will be young pups who, with numbers, good tactics and the best gear they can wear, will put the front-runner at risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is the issue I have. Referring back to this table.
A maximum power character deals over twice as much as a newb IF you don't factor in base attack bonus OR this little gem.
T1 Weapons get an attack bonus of the lowest roll of 2D200s
T2 Weapons get an attack bonus of the median roll of 3D200s.
T3 Weapons get an attack bonus of the highest roll of 3D200s.
But let's just keep it simple round that t1+0 up to 50 damage and keep the t3+3 at 100.
We won't worry about BAB, Armor feat AB, Attack type AB or any of that stuff.
So based on that a newb is half as strong as a vet.
But this is a single stat. Say health is the same (I actually think that like attack itself it's more than twice but indulge me).
Well if I'm fighting you and I have twice the health and twice the damage I'm killing you twice as fast and can last twice as long. That's 4 times as strong.
But what about my armor? I wear heavy so I'd be quite surprised if between keywords and higher tier I wouldn't take half as much damage when maxed. Plus I get all those enhanced saves, recovery bonus etc. That's 8 times as strong.
Oh but wait. I also get that huge power pool. That's another big bonus to effectiveness. If that makes me 50% more effective in throwing off feats, well then I'm 12 times as strong. So by 12 times as strong that means it should take 12 players in T1 gear with level one abilities to match me in combat. Of course as they die they lose strength while I remain at full strength until dead but that's all complicated.
That's not factoring in things like my higher movement speed from agile feet and travel domain, my better stealth, my better perception. Things that are going to give hugely beneficial circumstantial bonuses to combat. Complicated as well so we won't figure that in either.
We're just going to go with the VERY LOW estimate of me being 12 times as strong as a newb.
So going by BAB it takes 13% of the training time to reach half effectiveness that it does to reach 100% effectiveness.
How does half effectiveness measure up against me. Well if you factor in half my damage bonus, half my health, have my resistances, and half my advantage from power thats.
1x1.5x1.5x1.5x1.25= 4.21 or slightly over a third as effective as me. How long does it take to reach that if I've been training 5 years? Half a year.
So you have to train half a year to be a third as effective as I am. A huge portion of players will never even make it that far.
If you train 7 10ths of the way to where I am that puts you at 55% of my strength (so slightly over half) and takes 1 years + 3-4 months. To be half as strong as me. Going by these low estimates.
Should I keep going? Because IMO even if these were the full on figures factoring in the effectiveness of every character stat based advantage over a year to reach 75% of the strength of a vet getting a little ridiculous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2.5 years is fine. 4.75 years is also fine. As long as we are all working on the same calendar, I'm cool with this. Certainly better than going from level 1 to 90 in 3 days, or worse, buying a capped out character from the store, or getting one free for an advance purchase. That is uncool.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this an issue best addressed a couple down the road when the tyranny of the majority that rules crowdforging has newbs heavily outnumbering us instead of the entire community having a vested interest in preserving the power of month 1 and 2 veterans for as long as possible. Will be quite fun to see how they butcher our characters to address the problem then since we wont address it now.
Well I guess that's unless this game stays Darkfall/Mortal small and never grows much further than the dedicated group of fanboys we have now. A possibility if the newbs feel too heavily outclassed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Its simple really.
EXTREME # 1. If you are after a churn game where all you care about is new players even if they stay one month then accelerate progression and let the new players max level as soon as possible (preferably within a month or two or better yet a week). I had friends that could max level WoW characters in 3 days and did it for a living.
EXTREME # 2. If you want an elitist game with a few dedicated players that form an exclusive cliche then make it impossible for new players to do anything at all for years and even then require them to have "help" from an established clan.
Or you can aim for something in between. Which is what PFO seems to be trying to achieve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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5 years in not inbetween. It's the most heavily toward extreme 2 of any game I've ever seen with the exception of Wurm Online. Really. I can't name any other game you can't fully optomize a character to a single role faster other than Wurm. Darkfall's time to max was generally lower and in the original a combat focused character had the maximize EVERYTHING other than crafting to be fully optimized for combat. And most newbs still thought it was over the top.
Also if progression is to be considered the primary content of PFO then everything we've been told is a lie and this game has failed in what it set out to be. Player interaction was meant to be our primary content and personally if the economy and gear loss didn't depend on done form of progression I would be happy to not have any at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius, in your example 5 posts above you mention everything based on Tier 1 gear.
In about 5-6 Weeks, you can use T2 gear with Level 3 Attacks, which changes the playing field a lot. At that point though, it is still an average party of T2s vs 1 T3, although factoring in skill and luck, that group might be able to take 2 T3s.
Day 1 vs Day 40-50 is a huge difference, but Day 40-50 vs Day 80-100 isn't that big of a difference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simple answer: Don't min-max a combat monster. Besides, 5 years is a ridiculously long time to singlemindedly pursue a single build. I'm confident that many people who set out to do that would burn out and move on to another MMO long before 5 years.
Another thing this "uber-build" mentality neglects: Power doesn't only come at the end of a sword. To dominate the River Kingdoms, you'll need to put hundreds more hours into the political game and the economic game. Who cares how many points of damage you could do with a +5 Vorpal blade if your allies have turned on you and your settlement is starving under a crippling embargo. Raw personal tanking and damage dealing ability is an incredibly shallow goal compared to controlling the fate of nations.
I say again: Who cares how long it takes to maximize one character's combat abilities? In the "endgame" (if PFO can be said to have one), the might of nations will reduce any single character's personal combat effectiveness to utter insignificance.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Here's the challenge: In 5 years time, show me a character that min-maxed to the original specs (2 weapons, 6 attacks per weapon, exactly one feat per slot, and passive effects.)
I will show you at that time a build that uses less than 12 months of experience that consistently wins 1v1 PvP with moderate player skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I always figured 2.5 years to max one role already way too long. I would propose 1 year. I understand that GW needs to make money and does not want people to stop training XP because they maxed their role(though currently that would mean they can not log in anyway), but there are still about 20 other roles that people could start to train for, i.e. go lateral instead of vertical. And more to come. MMO's evolve and I am sure there are ways to add stuff so that people keep paying for XP for that character while not uberfying a single role.
I think GW currently has drawn out the progression path a bit too far into the future.
I guess some people will perceive players who have have a substantial "lateral" developed character (Max Fighter + Max Miner + Max Armorsmith + Max Interior Decorator for instance)already overpowering and unfair and whatever but I hope that is a minority.
If new players realize that they can have a Maxed PvP Fighter-role in 1 year, I think there would be much less of a problem.
And they could always buy a laterally maxed-out character from an another player. :)
Here's an idea:
Maybe at some point GW can make it possible to not just buy the entire character, but only a certain Role or Skill package from a veteran character. So more like "transferring Skills" instead of transferring the character. Could even make this an in-game RP feature or some.
With certain restrictions, I guess, because else you will have this rich dude who buys every single Role of veterans and has the most uberest of characters: exept that it is not really Uber, just totally laterally maxed out, so maybe not so bad after all.
For those that figure this would cost GW income, because the buyer is not paying for game-time to build his character: the same happens when people buy an entire character from another player. In fact, being able to sell "parts" of your veteran character, may keep *you* playing for longer, while a new player enters the game with parts of your character. So a win-win situation!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The following is the fastest way to level 20, I went by hand through every single level to make sure I was meeting all pre-reqs, including levels for Features, as well as Attributes needed.
Miner, Recovery, and 1 Con Refining skill is absolutely needed for every Con Armor Build.
To get here faster, I had to gimp my attacks from maxing out.
Str 25.276
Con 24.554
Dex 11.273
Int 10.603
Wis 10.603
Person 10.603
Hit Points Level 20 (218,991xp)
Power Level 20 (44,387xp)
Base Attack Bonus Level 10 (233,853xp)
Heavy Melee Attack Bonus Level 10 (109,495xp)
Fortitude Bonus Level 10 (164,242xp)
Heavy Blade Specialization Level 11 (437,980xp)
Unbreakable Level 14 (213,046xp)
(Dragoon Level 8) (15,701xp)
(Axe Specialization Level 5) (20,998xp)
--------------------------------------> 1,458,693xp
Great Fortitude Level 3 (8,367xp)
Toughness Level 3 (8,367xp)
Bravery Level 4 (23,278xp)
---------------------------------------> 40,012xp
Bull Rush Level 5 (44,233xp)
Bulwark Level 5 (44,233xp)
---------------------------------------> 88,466xp
Master of Opportunity Level 4 (20,615xp)
Master of Opportunity Level 4 (20,615xp)
---------------------------------------> 41,230
Heavy Armor Prof Level 3 (5,352xp)
Trophy Charm Prof Level 3 (10,603xp)
Heavy Blade Prof Level 3 (Whirlwind 5, Understrike 5, Thousand Cuts 5, Hamstring 5, False Edge 5, Slash 5) (109,488xp)
Axe Prof Level 2 (Carve 4, Chop 4, Cut 4, Hack 4, Hew 4, Mangle 4) (44,667xp)
Bow Prof Level 1 (Parting Shot 1, Overdraw 1, Sorrow's Release 1, Patient Anchor 1, Bullseye Shot 1, Impact Critical Shot 1) (585xp)
Shield Prof Level 3 (Shield Block 5, Shield Bash 5, Shield Charge 5, Shield Slam 5) (74,776xp)
----------------------------------------> 245,471xp
Miner Level 9 (30,166xp)
Recovery Level 9 (39,457xp)
Smelter Level 7 (32,049xp)
----------------------------------------> 101,672xp
Total = 1,975,544 - 823 Days, 2.25 Years
If you want to max out all your combat skills+Expendables:
An Additional 663,460 XP - 276 Days, .75 Years
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
101,672 wasted xp... Seriously... I will never understand why I have to wasted my paid for xp on gathering skills...
That xp is 42.36 days... WOW, a month and a half's worth of xp on skills I do not want... Just to gain levels in my CLASS
I have been avoiding the temptation to post here.
5 years of skill training will put you at 110 million skill points in Eve... Which is enough xp to be a master at every racial subcap pvp ship in Eve. My last Eve character, which was pure PVP was at 130 million skill points. That character had level 5 in every sub capital ship, and level 5 in every gunnery skill in the game. I was a bit short on missiles, but not by much. I had every shield and armor skill level 5 as well.
And when I say every, I mean every single subcap skill excluding Black Ops, Marauders, and T3.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen
I would say closer to 8 years, but I never used more than +4 implants and frequently jumped to an implant naked PvP clone.
Eve is an interesting game to look at. After 10 years of play, there is no sense of grinding in it. No need to train outside of your chosen role. It is a sandbox in the truest sense of the word.
Pathfinder Online has managed in one patch to generate a sense that it is excessively grindy, and not very sandbox friendly.
Are achievements as gates worth that perception?
Remember, this sense of grinding becomes noticeable when you start to look to get to any Role at level 7. That is within the first 7-10 days for a casual player. That is early enough for the player to decide, "I'm not putting more into this."
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Goblin Squad Member
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...not very sandbox friendly.
I don't believe PFO can appear sandbox-friendly until after the Great Catastrophe. We need to be able to direct our efforts to supporting our proper Settlements, Alliances, and Nations; all before that will be waiting, practicing, and burning time.
The War of Towers will, of course, be an attempt at giving us a sense of agency about advancing our interests. It obviously remains to be seen how effective it will be at that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I remember correctly, the power-curve's supposed to manifest itself in the ability for new characters to flee experienced ones, with the further proviso that they both must perceive the need to flee and to start immediately. "Several" new characters--numbers vary--should be able to be a threat to an experienced character, if they're well-played and coordinated in their efforts, but once again, they'll have little to-no one-shot-kill capability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is one of the drawbacks to "showing all their cards" relative to the damage charts and spreadsheets, as someone will pick at them to shows flaws. To some degree, sure, that's why they share the info. But I will not be playing to max out my spreadsheet data, come up with the perfect build and rotation, and otherwise take the fun out of the game. When it stops being fun I'll take a break. If it stops being fun altogether, I'll do something else entirely.
Play. Have fun. Stop letting this worry you so much. If everyone is playing the same game and taking the same amount of time to max a skill, they you're even.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do not believe it to be highly relevant how long it will take for a character to "max out" in power for the reasons stated above (just highlighting a few here):
- very few players will ever reach that "max power level"
- due to the heavy impact gear is going to have on character power there is never going to be any real parity between characters anyway (except maybe for prearranged duels)
- this game is (well, for those involved in the settlement game at least) not about power at the individual character level but power on a company, settlement, nation and alliance level so in the grand scheme of things individual powerful characters are going to be largely irrelevant
What would be interesting to know regarding the new player perspective would be how fast the power currently "ramps up" for new players, assuming that they take advantage from the best possible gear available to them. I have a gut feeling that the amount of power available for 1-2 month old characters might surprise a few people (me included), as a lot of power is going to come from higher tier gear becoming available.
Personally I have no problem with it theoretically taking several years for me to max out my character. If anything it will hopefully motivate me to keep my subscription going during the inevitable lulls in interest. If my character would be maxed in effectiveness after 6, 12, 24 or whatever months it would be much easier to decide just to put to sub on hold and (maybe) return later. I do not believe this is the type of behavior GW would like to encourage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the reason Andius finds this important is because as a competitive PvP player (in an MMO) it's "business as usual" to max out as soon as possible and compete with other players who are also max level. This makes the PvP as balanced as possible and prevents losers from saying "well your character is better than mine, that's why you won."
Just a guess though~
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simple answer: Don't min-max a combat monster. Besides, 5 years is a ridiculously long time to singlemindedly pursue a single build. I'm confident that many people who set out to do that would burn out and move on to another MMO long before 5 years.
While that isn't my playstyle, for a significant chunk of MMO players, it is. You can't ignore the fact that there will be min/max players, and their $ is just as good as yours. People, in any significant quantity, burning out before reaching "cap" and moving on is a big problem. The way this game is set up, we want people in here for the long haul. A sandbox game needs a stable base of players, not the churn of a themepark. Taking ~5 years to reach a max build may be fine for some players, it really will be a turnoff for PVPers and min/max'ers. GW is going to need as many subs as possible- this game is going to be a hard sell to the average MMO player, and to the average TT player- and should err on the side of reaching a max role too early rather than too late.
Andius has some valid concerns, and what I have witnessed in other games mirrors his concerns. 2- 1/2 years seemed about right for a max role, ~5 seems excessive.