Goblin Squad Member
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So you are saying that one can play 5 years with character getting better and slowly better. always something more to strive for.
It's not that fun when you spend 3 months, 100 gaming hours and $50 for a passive feat you'll barely notice is there. No animation, nothing. I think Xeen also offers a point, in EVE you spend 5 years building a combat character who can do everything, 5 years for a fully outfitted single combat role borders on insanity.
//edit: Actually it doesn't border, it's full fledged Fing nuts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen
I would say closer to 8 years, but I never used more than +4 implants and frequently jumped to an implant naked PvP clone.
I was able to get 20msp per year with the old attribute system, and 22 msp per year with the change. Using +4's, when I clone jumped to +5's was when I did the off attribute training. So really, just over 5 years gets 110msp when considering both attribute methods.
I also never went without at least 2 +3 implants in any clone while in 0.0, and would frequently roam low sec with +5's since you can not be warp bubbled... Sometimes it cost me but I didnt care.
Personally, I am against arbitrarily limiting the speed at which someone can advance - it smacks of a certain lack disregard of recognition of the casual (and to an extent the hardcore) player by putting forwards a 'rich get richer' scheme.
Bob starts up a month before me. We both kill 500 goblins a day. I still earn the same XP as him and while the gap between levels does begin to shrink as it takes more time for Bob to get that next tier of whatever, I will remain behind him though the disparity between characters will not be so incredibly pronounced. This is debatable acceptable - in any other game if I kill 750 goblins to his 500, I'll get that much closer to being on-par, and eventually we would become equals. Here? No such luck.
Now say Bob has been playing for three months, six months, a year? The gap between our characters is a gaping chasm and will remain as such no matter how much I do until the time Bob stops his advancement entirely or he hits the end of the line.
That's not something I can get behind.
I believe that this system fails to recognize certain playstyles at all. As is, it looks like the idea is to have players go for the 'long term' and eschews much of the game-y aspects of other titles on the market for, perhaps understandably, a very different take on the current MMO scheme. Unfortunately this system forces players into playing at a particular pace than working at their own and that is not healthy - there will inevitably be a group of old farts with characters months old that will dominate the more competitive scenes of PvE/P with no real room for 'fresh blood' to move in until they too become old dogs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I am against arbitrarily limiting the speed at which someone can advance - it smacks of a certain lack disregard of recognition of the casual (and to an extent the hardcore) player by putting forwards a 'rich get richer' scheme.
Bob starts up a month before me. We both kill 500 goblins a day. I still earn the same XP as him and while the gap between levels does begin to shrink as it takes more time for Bob to get that next tier of whatever, I will remain behind him though the disparity between characters will not be so incredibly pronounced. This is debatable acceptable - in any other game if I kill 750 goblins to his 500, I'll get that much closer to being on-par, and eventually we would become equals. Here? No such luck.
Now say Bob has been playing for three months, six months, a year? The gap between our characters is a gaping chasm and will remain as such no matter how much I do until the time Bob stops his advancement entirely or he hits the end of the line.
That's not something I can get behind.
I believe that this system fails to recognize certain playstyles at all. As is, it looks like the idea is to have players go for the 'long term' and eschews much of the game-y aspects of other titles on the market for, perhaps understandably, a very different take on the current MMO scheme. Unfortunately this system forces players into playing at a particular pace than working at their own and that is not healthy - there will inevitably be a group of old farts with characters months old that will dominate the more competitive scenes of PvE/P with no real room for 'fresh blood' to move in until they too become old dogs.
Have you ever played Eve?
In the beginning that one month gap looks like a gaping hole. Once you get rolling, it ends up being one skill.
For instance:
In Eve, I can train large beam laser specialization to level 5 in one month. You only get it to level 4, because you are behind by a month. That is a 2% damage increase for one specific weapon.
If you are both using that weapon, then you will see that small increase. If you are not, you are exactly the same. That little bump means nothing if you are not using that one specific weapon at the same time.
Trust me, in the long run, a one month gap means nothing.
If it is a year gap, that can be much more obvious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe we can rightly say the design 'arbitrarily' limits the speed of character advancement. It is calculated and the same for all, and I suspect that advancement rate is inextricably tied to many other elements of the game's design. If the developer is going to make an adjustment it most likely will require comprehensive recalculation of many uses for other things such as the difficulty of PvE, the 'balance' of PvP the relative availability of top tier materials and recipes... many things. Positives usually entail negatives somewhere. I don't believe it is arbitrary at all.
The idea is that one player should not gain disproportionate advantage over others because of mechanics, but that advantage can be gained by using your head, by appropriately using your skills, and by both the time and manner you have played.
Over against that is a commitment to impose an unusually shallow power curve. New players are supposed to be able to defend themselves against older players, and new players are supposed to be able to successfully team up on older players and have a fighting chance.
An issue that has been raised is that it shouldn't take 'too much' time for a new player to reach the same level as someone else. The problem I see with that argument is that it is sorta like telling my Mom on her birthday that I'm going to catch up with her. It won't happen anyway. If I have five years into the game and you strive to be my equal, all the time you are building your character it isn't as if my character is stopping (unless I drop out playing that character for five years). That argument doesn't make sense (though the preference that you don't think it should take so long to reach your optimal build needs to be considered).
About playstyles: I don't see how any playstyles are squelched other than the 'murderhobo' playstyle. Could you speak more toward your vision of how things should be? You aren't suggesting all characters should always be completely equal are you? If that were the case we wouldn't need experience or achievements at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was able to get 20msp per year with the old attribute system, and 22 msp per year with the change. Using +4's, when I clone jumped to +5's was when I did the off attribute training. So really, just over 5 years gets 110msp when considering both attribute methods.
I also never went without at least 2 +3 implants in any clone while in 0.0, and would frequently roam low sec with +5's since you can not be warp bubbled... Sometimes it cost me but I didnt care.
I played EVE for a while in 2008, but I still understood barely a word of your post, Xeen :-).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I played EVE for a while in 2008, but I still understood barely a word of your post, Xeen :-).I was able to get 20msp per year with the old attribute system, and 22 msp per year with the change. Using +4's, when I clone jumped to +5's was when I did the off attribute training. So really, just over 5 years gets 110msp when considering both attribute methods.
I also never went without at least 2 +3 implants in any clone while in 0.0, and would frequently roam low sec with +5's since you can not be warp bubbled... Sometimes it cost me but I didnt care.
LOL, want me to elaborate?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Xeen was absolutely right to point out that as time progresses that month means less and less. First year it is 1/12, next year 1/28, next year 1/36... a tinier and tinier difference.
The xp/achievement costs of his advancement are vastly greater. Imagine the xp needed to buy a new feat after five years. The number would be astronomical. It might take a month to advance a single feat, whereas a new player would gain feats in minutes, then hours and it would be awhile before it took a full day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From my Analysis of all 4 classes:
Wizard is fastest to level
Fighter/Rogue take a few more months
Cleric takes the most time, by far, because of the needed Con, and his Role not giving what he needs, so he has to dip heavily into other Roles
If they reduced the price of everything experience based by 16.67% after Role level 8, as well as added more avenues to gain Con/Person then I think the game will be on a much better path. They could also just increase Con/Person output slightly higher across the board.
Essentially, Int/Str/Dex/Wis/Per has the ability to max out towards 24 earlier, if they take Low Level attacks Lvl 3/4, while Con only has 4 attacks, and really needs them at level 5, which means killing 1250 creatures with a shield...
I think that 2.5 years should represent:
All of your base feats maxed out (HP/Power/Bab/SpecBab/1x Feature/1x Armor/1 Save)
12 Attacks to level 6, 6 for 2 different weapons.
3 Defenses, 2 Reactives, and 2 Utilities maxed to 5 (or 6 if that is new max)
2 Expendables each from levels 1 to 9 (so 18)
4 Profs
The above is still extremely narrow, essentially it is all 1 build, with the only versatility coming in at 2 different weapons, and Expendables.
As a side note, I believe that all buffs should be increased by 1-2 more rounds, again, especially since the nature of a lot of buffs means hitting enemies with them at 15m. This allows for a buff and setup before battle, very much like TT. With your Weapon/Focus/Staff bonuses, you could keep the % increase you already have in place.
I do think Cleric's get kind of screwed a bit, so increasing the Damage Factor by 0.5-1.0 on all Non Battle Orisons, and 1.0 on all Battle Orisons would begin to fix that situation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you speak more toward your vision of how things should be? You aren't suggesting all characters should always be completely equal are you? If that were the case we wouldn't...
Ideally, I'd have it take 2.5 years to max out a narrowly defined role- ie. a sword and shield fighter, or healing-focused cleric. In that narrow focus, the 2.5 year player is no worse mechanically than a 5 year vet. Clearly the vet has 2.5 more years worth of practical experience in the game, and has had the ability to have a wider focus of skills and abilities to draw from, but in terms of the core role, they are mechanically equal.
Player X has had 2.5 years in game. He has narrowly focused on becoming a greatsword wielding, heavy armor wearing fighter. Mechanically, he is no worse in that narrow role than any cap player. However, he has zero gathering/crafting skills. No range attacks, and has little skill in any weapon but a greatsword. No stealth, and his perception is low.
Player Y has played for 5 years. He is also a greatsword wielding, heavy armor wearing fighter. Unlike Player X, he has been able to train in some ranged attacks with a crossbow. He can switch to sword and shield if needed. He has trained in stealth and perception. He has advanced social and knowledge skills that make him useful to his settlement in ways beyond combat.
Factoring out player experience, if the two met in combat, it would be a fairly even fight from a depth perspective (they both are capped at their role). The vet would have an advantage from the breadth of his training. Additionally should the two team up, Player X can still contribute in his role at the highest level, even if he lacks the versatility of Player Y.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the challenge: In 5 years time, show me a character that min-maxed to the original specs (2 weapons, 6 attacks per weapon, exactly one feat per slot, and passive effects.)
I will show you at that time a build that uses less than 12 months of experience that consistently wins 1v1 PvP with moderate player skill.
You're making a big assumption there. I'm not going to reveal to you just how flawed your logic is, but I can pretty much promise you things won't play out how you think they will.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hi, I have never posted here though I am slated to be a part of this game in theory. I think I can explain what Andius is talking about guys.
For about a week I played Dust514, the FPS set in the EVE universe. Now I can't say I quit JUST because of the potential grind or, more relevant, the hopelessness of ever being able killing other players but I am pretty sure that is definitely a factor.
Dust has the exact same use XP to get higher tiers of abilities to use better equipment thing going on that EVE has. Because I started so late in the game, I was very behind in what level of equipment I could bring to bear AS WELL as potential higher stats due being behind a huge magnitude of XP.
Because of the magnitude of the difference in power and equipment, I seriously could get so few kills in what is purportedly a skill based game. My enemies weapons did more damage, my enemies had better armor, they had better vehicles, they had better RADARs (making my only hope of getting a kill in a 1v1 situation via sneaking up on my enemy disappear). Seriously, what kills I could get were because my allies had come up during the fight to help or I had happened to come up on an enemy who was already low on health. If I and an enemy rounded the same corner and started trying to kill each other, often times I would die before I had dealt a meaningful amount of damage to his health bar.
I don't claim to be an FPS savant normally or anything. I think I'm a pretty average player actually in most regards and will be so in PFO. But it could get seriously demoralizing for a new player when they realize the majority of the pvp opponents they keep facing are a few years ahead of them and their is no meaningful activity they can do the close the gap, which is what Andius believes will happen here. His argument is simply lower the amount of time it takes to reach the potential pvp cap so that new players realize that it won't take them so long to reach the same level.
Anyway, I'm rambling. I think I got lucky this time around in that I will be starting the game from Month 1 of Early Enrollment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ xevious573
I don't think you were rambling. Unless I miss my mark you were pretty clear.
One of the design objectives the devs of PFO have shared is that they intend the power curve to be so gradual that the situation you met in DUST shouldn't happen in PFO. See Traianus Decius Aureas' post above for what I believe is a rather close description of the design intent, though the ETA may vary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's probably worth quoting this old post from Ryan again.
Newbies
When you are a "new" character, you'll be fragile and weak. That does two things:
1: It encourages you to stay in reasonably safe areas and focus on learning how the game works, rather than trying to be Conan on day one.
2: It makes "disposable alts" a less viable option. Making a new character is not an "I win" button for PvP if you do it with a herd of your friends.
Average
At some point, you move into the "normal" power curve of the game; what we've talked about being equivalent to the kind of power you typically see from about 6th level to about 10th level (what I call the "heroic adventuring" part of a Pathfinder tabletop RPG character's career).
This is where you find that the development of your character becomes a process of being very good at a wide range of activities. You'll be able to "catch up" to a character that's older than you in a given activity given a few months of dedicated play and training, but that older character will have the advantage of being very good at a variety of things, not just one thing.
This is essentially what happens in EVE Online.
A small group of reasonably experienced "heroic adventurers" should be able to fight off a horde of new characters, A heroic adventurer should be able to beat a small number of new characters fairly easily.
Balance comes when you have conflict between groups of heroic adventurers. In such encounters, the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill.
Old Vets
There will likely be a small number of old, experienced, wealthy, well equipped PCs who will be really dangerous. You won't want to cross them.
If they show up in a fight, they can tip the balance quickly. If they act in concert as a group, it will take a lot of Heroic Adventurers to keep them in check.
Moderating the power of these Old Vets is an obvious long-term challenge for the game designers and I'm sure we'll have lots of ideas on how to keep them from getting out of hand. But I'm also sure that it will be pretty fun to play one too. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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All I worry about is how badly crippled I'll be in terms of making it through the day if I ignore the best/fastest path to anywhere and just pick up whatever I feel like that day.
^ this
I worry that my tendency to dabble in several things will make me a gimp cleric. I'm not worried about 100% min/maxing my cleric but I don't want a group choosing to take Bob the Cleric who never trained in anything but cleric skills over me just because I cannot quit my gathering addiction and want to train up some other skills. Am I building a garbage character if I play cleric and decide to try a couple months of Wizarding?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hi, I have never posted here though I am slated to be a part of this game in theory. I think I can explain what Andius is talking about guys.
For about a week I played Dust514, the FPS set in the EVE universe. Now I can't say I quit JUST because of the potential grind or, more relevant, the hopelessness of ever being able killing other players but I am pretty sure that is definitely a factor.
Dust has the exact same use XP to get higher tiers of abilities to use better equipment thing going on that EVE has. Because I started so late in the game, I was very behind in what level of equipment I could bring to bear AS WELL as potential higher stats due being behind a huge magnitude of XP.
Because of the magnitude of the difference in power and equipment, I seriously could get so few kills in what is purportedly a skill based game. My enemies weapons did more damage, my enemies had better armor, they had better vehicles, they had better RADARs (making my only hope of getting a kill in a 1v1 situation via sneaking up on my enemy disappear). Seriously, what kills I could get were because my allies had come up during the fight to help or I had happened to come up on an enemy who was already low on health. If I and an enemy rounded the same corner and started trying to kill each other, often times I would die before I had dealt a meaningful amount of damage to his health bar.
I don't claim to be an FPS savant normally or anything. I think I'm a pretty average player actually in most regards and will be so in PFO. But it could get seriously demoralizing for a new player when they realize the majority of the pvp opponents they keep facing are a few years ahead of them and their is no meaningful activity they can do the close the gap, which is what Andius believes will happen here. His argument is simply lower the amount of time it takes to reach the potential pvp cap so that new players realize that it won't take them so long to reach the same level.
Anyway, I'm rambling. I think I got lucky this time...
Thanks for the backup. If you ever want to give Dust another try feel free to squad with me. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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My recommendation is to play your character as your character and let the chips fall where they may.
I say this because though I know there are a few, perhaps many, who would exult counting coup on my bony elven derriere after all the things I've said I will have fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Note that I'm not saying Anduis is necessarily right. After all, I stopped playing Dust after a week and it wasn't solely because of that reason. Partially I just didn't have friends to play with and squad around with and partially because my own gaming habits these days just aren't the same (it's hard for me to stick to any game 'cept for tabletop games or League of Legends unless I'm playing with friends). That being said, I don't really know how I feel about it taking 5 years to reach old vet status or more specifically how many "heroic adventurers" it will take to bring one done... I'm guess I'm more worried about the estimations on how many "Old Vets" there will be. (Of course, if I stick this game out, I have the potential to be one of the early Old Vets so that's cool). So I still get Anduis's worries.
But right now I'm pretty alright with waiting to see how the game just pans out.
BTW shameless plug: I intend on playing a wizard specializing in abjuration. I don't really know what that's going to mean for me gameplay wise or if that will be of any use in PVP or settlement building (would be awesome to be able to craft magical defenses for settlements and buildings hint hint) but any suggestions on a casual group tending towards the Lawful Good alignment would be plenty welcome. Send me a PM if your interested or have a suggestion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All I worry about is how badly crippled I'll be in terms of making it through the day if I ignore the best/fastest path to anywhere and just pick up whatever I feel like that day.^ this
I worry that my tendency to dabble in several things will make me a gimp cleric. I'm not worried about 100% min/maxing my cleric but I don't want a group choosing to take Bob the Cleric who never trained in anything but cleric skills over me just because I cannot quit my gathering addiction and want to train up some other skills. Am I building a garbage character if I play cleric and decide to try a couple months of Wizarding?
@Both, I do not see this as a problem over all. Putting a couple months xp into something will not make you horrible at your main class. Honestly, doing the Wizard/Cleric thing would be cool, and probably pretty useful. I doubt you will be gimped, you just may not have that extra 2%.
You will have a place in my party if you want to go out hunting. Does not matter if you min/maxed or not.
What I do not want is to be forced into it. If I do not want to multiclass, then I shouldnt be required to just to increase my main class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At some point, you move into the "normal" power curve of the game; what we've talked about being equivalent to the kind of power you typically see from about 6th level to about 10th level (what I call the "heroic adventuring" part of a Pathfinder tabletop RPG character's career).
This is where you find that the development of your character becomes a process of being very good at a wide range of activities. You'll be able to "catch up" to a character that's older than you in a given activity given a few months of dedicated play and training, but that older character will have the advantage of being very good at a variety of things, not just one thing.
This is essentially what happens in EVE Online.
I feel like that statement is false within the current system.
The way I interpret this is you can be just as good of a damage output wizard as any old vet within a few months. But that vet can also be a powerful debuffing, divination, or crowd control wizard if he switches his abilities around. Plus he's got a few fighter builds and a rogue build that do alright too.
What I'm seeing is that I can spend 5 years increasing the combat effectiveness of a single character build, and that's not including the time it takes to train expendables. (Mainly because I never saw an XP cost chart for them)
That seems to me, to fly directly in the face of what's being said above. Even if I decide not to min-max it 100% and invest 3/5ths of the time it takes to fully max it that's still three years. Not "a few months".
I don't want to see anyone have to train 3 years to be almost on my power level.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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It's important to note that you can never be "gimped". That is, you can never make a choice which limits your ability to make better choices later.
The worst you can do is spend XP on something that never helps you do anything you want to do in the game. In other words, you spent some time on something with no value. There is no part of the design that says "because you trained X, you can never train Y", or even "because you trained X, training Y will be harder".
If you realize at some point that you have been less focused on your training that you might have preferred, you just get focused at that point and move forward. You don't think, "oh well, this character is wasted, might as well quit."
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I don't want a group choosing to take Bob the Cleric who never trained in anything but cleric skills over me...
You sound as if you'll be in a pool of random Clerics that the others in Kabal are choosing from. It seems more likely that your friends will group with you because you're *you*, and not because you're a pile of points put together the "right" way.
I can see Sunnfire and Bunibuni kicking some holy @$$ if Stoneroot Glade treats its citizens that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I don't want a group choosing to take Bob the Cleric who never trained in anything but cleric skills over me...You sound as if you'll be in a pool of random Clerics that the others in Kabal are choosing from. It seems more likely that your friends will group with you because you're *you*, and not because you're a pile of points put together the "right" way.
I can see Sunnfire and Bunibuni kicking some holy @$$ if Stoneroot Glade treats its citizens that way.
Your social build > your character build.
It is completely conceivable to downright possible that at some point in many of our PFO's career, we will have the choice to become MORE powerful by "gimping" our character in order to train something the group needs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the comment Ryan. I don't want to hate myself just because I was curious how swinging a sword felt or I mis-clicked something I didn't need. I also love multiclassing and it should should my vertical levelling if I level horizontally across many disciplines.
You sound as if you'll be in a pool of random Clerics that the others in Kabal are choosing from. It seems more likely that your friends will group with you because you're *you*, and not because you're a pile of points put together the "right" way.I can see Sunnfire and Bunibuni kicking some holy @$$ if Stoneroot Glade treats its citizens that way.
Hehe, I was remembering my old FFXI days where a group would choose a poorly skilled Taru over a well geared skilled Galka White Mage just because it was the 'right' race for the class.
I think I get groups in FFXIV now not because I am the best black mage ever but I am fun to play with, am decently geared and play well enough to clear content. Ok I also am the leader of the Free Company but :p
I hope to eventually make a name for myself with Kabal but I have to have time to log on first!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your social build > your character build.
It is completely conceivable to downright possible that at some point in many of our PFO's career, we will have the choice to become MORE powerful by "gimping" our character in order to train something the group needs.
Thats what I have been hoping. I am a team player and have been known to level things that strengthen the overall group even if it isnt my first choice. It makes me happy to do so and I usually end up liking something I would have never even tried before.
Except tanking, Yelta does not tank.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hehe, I was remembering my old FFXI days where a group would choose a poorly skilled Taru over a well geared skilled Galka White Mage just because it was the 'right' race for the class.
I don't see this ever being an issue in PFO unless there are dungeons that limit how many players can enter.
When I played Darkfall if we were going to do group content that we thought required about 6 people, and we ended up with 15 volunteers, we would roll out with 15 players. That's the beauty of open world games.
What's more concering to me is your Taru who dedicated himself to being the best possible Taru will be plastering your Galka in PvP for years to come because your Galka started a year later and didn't remain wholly focused on training nothing but PvP abilities like he did.
I feel like if you stick with the game and focus enough of your skill training on a single PvP build for long enough you should eventually be rewarded by being able to slot all of the most powerful abilities for that character, and skills like Perception/Stealth that don't need to be slotted should have some kind of limiter on how many can benefit you at a single time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I'm seeing is that I can spend 5 years increasing the combat effectiveness of a single character build...
I think the big difference is that you're looking at it from the perspective of their being a "cap" on effectiveness. If I'm understanding you, you want other players to be able to reach that cap and be "100% effective" in a given, narrowly focused Role within 3-6 months. The way I see it, there's a very long tail where you can spend lots and lots of XP for extremely minor improvements. I have no problem thinking that someone has "caught up" when they're 85% effective compared to my 94%.
I will once again recommend that we utilize factual data rather than "impressions".
How much XP does it take for a Character (Adam) to "max out" their Combat Effectiveness?
How much XP does it take for a new Character (Betty) to utilize a Tier 2 Weapon and Tier 2 Armor?
What is the differential in damage output when Adam and Betty square off, when both are wearing appropriate Tier 2 Gear? And what is the differential when Adam is wearing appropriate Tier 3 Gear?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I'm seeing is that I can spend 5 years increasing the combat effectiveness of a single character build...I think the big difference is that you're looking at it from the perspective of their being a "cap" on effectiveness. If I'm understanding you, you want other players to be able to reach that cap and be "100% effective" in a given, narrowly focused Role within 3-6 months.
No. I'd like to see 100% effective be about 2 years. But 75% effective be no more than one.
I feel like anyone who pays 180$ for a years worth of training time and sticks with this game long enough to get that far deserves as much.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You're making a big assumption there. I'm not going to reveal to you just how flawed your logic is, but I can pretty much promise you things won't play out how you think they will.Here's the challenge: In 5 years time, show me a character that min-maxed to the original specs (2 weapons, 6 attacks per weapon, exactly one feat per slot, and passive effects.)
I will show you at that time a build that uses less than 12 months of experience that consistently wins 1v1 PvP with moderate player skill.
That's why the challenge was conservative: I expect to be able to take down any narrowly focused character with only six months of XP, given the constraint of dueling.
If you post the build you'd make with the feats as currently implemented, I'll post a counter with the feats as currently implemented. I won't even quibble about where this veteran is getting their equipment.
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Our goal is to create a next-generation sandbox MMO that will focus on controlled growth and a very long customer lifecycle. We're not trying to beat World of Warcraft or make a billion dollars a year. We want to create a customer-centric business that is built to last. (Emphasis added.)
If their business model works, you will still be playing this game 5 years from now and loving it, Andius. And the money? Well. Spent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see 100% effective be about 2 years. But 75% effective be no more than one.And this is why I'd like to talk in real numbers. I'm not convinced this isn't already the case.
Well. Ok. Go back to my OP and point out a skill there that is not going to be useful to any PvP oriented character.
If you cannot do so then you must concede that the minimum training time to reach 100% effectiveness in a PvP build is at least 4.75 years.
Then I'd like you to show me a build you can create in 1 year that will be 75% as effective as my build.
As an experienced Open World PvPer I'm going to tell you I place the highest value on damage output, movement speed, stealth, and perception so if your build isn't good in those areas while retaining some decent level of survivability, I'm probably going to say it's not 75% competitive with mine since mine will chase you down, get away if I need to, hide if I thinks you can win, be ontop of you before you know what happens if I think I will win, and deal damage fast enough you'll be half dead before you even know what's going on if I end up getting the drop on you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I'm probably going to say it's not 75% competitive with mine since...
And this is why I'd like to talk in real numbers. Perhaps someone more inclined to that type of data analysis will grace us with the answers to the questions I asked above.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see 100% effective be about 2 years. But 75% effective be no more than one.And this is why I'd like to talk in real numbers. I'm not convinced this isn't already the case.Well. Ok. Go back to my OP and point out a skill there that is not going to be useful to any PvP oriented character.
If you cannot do so then you must concede that the minimum training time to reach 100% effectiveness in a PvP build is at least 4.75 years.
Then I'd like you to show me a build you can create in 1 year that will be 75% as effective as my build.
As an experienced Open World PvPer I'm going to tell you I place the highest value on damage output, movement speed, stealth, and perception so if your build isn't good in those areas while retaining some decent level of survivability, I'm probably going to say it's not 75% competitive with mine since mine will chase you down, get away if I need to, hide if I thinks you can win, be ontop of you before you know what happens if I think I will win, and deal damage fast enough you'll be half dead before you even know what's going on if I end up getting the drop on you.
Trouble is, we don't have an arena where all of that one-on-one PVP training is the only thing that's important. The "100% effective" character won't be in good shape if it goes up against a party of less than 100% characters.
If there were a party full of 100% effective characters prowling around my settlement, I'd probably either mobilize as many settlement members as possible to go hunt them, or when I woke up from the first death, I'd call in all of our gatherers and go into "hunker down" mode for a little while.
Then there's this. In EVE, that character in the small ship (a Rifter) can ruin the day of a character in a much bigger ship by applying a warp disruptor and/or a web. Both of these devices serve the same purpose: to prevent the big ship from running away (known as tackling the enemy ship) while a whole bunch of the Rifter pilot's friends come to destroy the big ship. PFO doesn't have the same mechanics as EVE, but hopefully the message will be valid: A newbie with questionable equipment and little training can play an effective part in a battle. It might not mean killing a single enemy yourself, but making it possible for your army to kill a whole bunch of enemies.
See here for a similar message.
EVE has had this same argument, many, many times. It takes a paradigm shift for a new player to realize that although they may never be able to "catch up" to a veteran player, they can still be effective against older, higher-xp characters. The ones who can't make that transition quit. Because EVE aims for slow growth rather than WoW-killing, it can withstand those losses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The "100% effective" character won't be in good shape if it goes up against a party of less than 100% characters.
Actually that's why I value stealth and movement speed so highly. Unless they have good perception and movement speed, they might be tough enough I won't attack them but they'll likely never see or catch me.
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This just isn't as absolutely true as people keep trying to say.
HP and Power cap, weapons armour and features all cap.The only substantial difference will be versatility. The veteran player will have multiple fighting roles capped and will have access to more role/feats than the new player. Nothing uber about that.
The "100% effective" character won't be in good shape if it goes up against a party of less than 100% characters.Actually that's why I value stealth and movement speed so highly. Unless they have good perception and movement speed, they might be tough enough I won't attack them but they'll likely never see or catch me.
The "100% effective character" will not be able to do everything at the same time. Andius, 5 years in you could jump that party of diversified characters that are only 2 years old and maybe kill one or two of them. But most likely someone in the party will see you coming because, as a member of a team, they maxed out their perception at the expense of some of their combat ability. The party would then be on alert, ready, and waiting to tear you apart with the same level of damage, defenses, and HP you have. The Same because these things cap with time rather than growing indefinitely.
All you gain with your 5 years is versatility. Not more HP. Not more damage. Not more defenses. Just versatility. The value of that versatility will be severely diminished in a party-based PvP game where many of your abilities are duplicated by other members of the party. Oh, and yes, if you are still with your current girlfriend at that time, you will be working in parties too. Why? Because even as a 5 year uber character, solo'ing will be dangerous.
The "100% effective" character will happen at 2-2.5 years, as estimated, because the "100% effective" character will be a member of a team, which, together, covers all the important PvP bases with minimal redundancy.
You don't need to be nerfed because you won't be running around TPK'ing newer players quite so much as you seem to think you will be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did a considerable amount of solo PvE and PvP in Darkfall, and if this game ends up more dangerous than Darkfall with it's kill anyone anywhere nearly consequence free / 100% loot drop and 90% of my enemies having significant statistical advantage over me... well I'll be REALLY shocked. It's one of the reasons I'm not afraid of making too many enemies. I already know what it's like to live in a game where most of the people you meet want to kill you on sight and really... it's actually kind of fun.
You can sit there and say you won't be able to solo in a PvP game, but I've been soloing without issue for 95% of my time in the alpha and I don't think it's going to get THAT much harder at any point.
Mark my words. Two skilled month one vets working together are going to be an insanely powerful force if this game shows the consistent growth they are aiming for.
And yes we will be partying with other people sometimes. But I expect we'll spend plenty of it alone or as a pair killing plenty of enemies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe Pathfinder Online is not the game for players who are wanting to totally max out a role. There are a lot of things to do, and that is one of them. If you are obsessing over hitting the max in every single possible skill for a role, maybe it's not the game that is nuts.
I like the slow progression. It's fine. Do other stuff. Make some friends. Build things. Hang out and patrol your settlement, or hang out and bother folks at another settlement. Drink some brew at Tavernhold. --Go to Emerald Spire. Try to defeat the monsters that have been terrorizing Mosswater. Explore Toad Hollow. Write a letter to your mom.
See. All sorts of other things to do than super-duper max out your character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have been thinking about gear within the context of this discussion. It really doesn't take you 3 years to max out the effectiveness of your gear, you can max that out much earlier, as in 6 months to a year earlier, if you are using a specific matching armor/weapon combo. Same thing goes for other slotted feats.
Its really just getting the Attribute pre-reqs to scrape that last 20 to hit, 100 hp, the last 10 points of your feature, so on and so forth. That goes on top of the dedication bonus.
Then, on top of it all, you have to be running around in super expensive gear that takes on average 5x longer to make, than T2 armor. T3 armor, I believe will be saved for special operations, events, and other special activities since it takes 1 que 30-40 days to make 1 T3 armor.
Furthermore, you can thread like 3-5 pieces of T2 armor, compared to 2-3 pieces of T3 armor. It is much safer to run around in T2 armor.
A person that is into T3, pretty far, using T2 gear, vs someone just entering T2 isn't a huge gap. You will have slightly better to hit, do a decent more damage, and have slightly better defenses, and hit points.
My point being, I think most people will run around in T2 gear, and I think most people will be on similar power curves, for the simple reason they don't want to die and lose/damage gear that takes weeks longer to make and replace than T2.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have been thinking about gear within the context of this discussion. It really doesn't take you 3 years to max out the effectiveness of your gear, you can max that out much earlier, as in 6 months to a year earlier, if you are using a specific matching armor/weapon combo. Same thing goes for other slotted feats.
Are you saying only using one weapon type? Because my build only accounts for 2 weapons and just enough abilities to fill the slots of each. There is no additional weapon training beyond that.
You would be giving up a very significant advantage if you narrowed yourself down to a single weapon to shave off 6 months training time or even recycled one of the same weapons/shields in the new weapon combo. The ability to switch weapons allows you do adapt better to changing situations.