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How about you let them play their character how they want to? Without the wongbadfun commentary.
There are plenty of people that use and bause animals for their best interest.
I'm not going to argue good vs. badwrongfun nor the (IMO) obvious themes of druid/ranger/hunter/etc and their animal companions.
You [read: everyone] are welcome to your own opinion.
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Furthermore, my summoner is deluded and believes that his eidolon is an avatar of Sarenrae, so he is very reverent.
Back to the OP, it is stronger for this pregen to stack armor class on the pet than to have armor class herself. She has ranged attacks and the pet doesn't. That's what really matters.
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Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying....or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
How about you let them play their character how they want to? Without the wongbadfun commentary.
There are plenty of people that use and bause animals for their best interest.
Me personally I enjoy a good steak now and then.
I may be reading too much into this, but just in case Im not...
Just an FYI, if thats an indication you would kill your companion for a meal cause you feel like having a steak, I would be marking it as an evil action on your chronicle sheet. Do it a second time, and Id mark the character dead for being evil.
My point is people view animals as less valuable then people.
Sometime this view is low enough to not place emotional value on the creature and only strategic value.
My point about the steak was in some ways I do feel the same about animals.
As long as you warn the player first you are in your right to do that. Although some DMs like to not read the rules and do things anyway.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It's not hard for me to envision a druid sect who believe that their companions are spirits who reincarnate from one beast to another.
When their companion dies, they eat the meat of the animal, so that they might carry within them the companion spirit. Then they allow some other wild animal to bite them and take the companion spirit.
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It's not hard for me to envision a druid sect who believe that their companions are spirits who reincarnate from one beast to another.
When their companion dies, they eat the meat of the animal, so that they might carry within them the companion spirit. Then they allow some other wild animal to bite them and take the companion spirit.
That's certainly one of many possible explanations why a druid-like PC would treat their AC that way. All I'm asking is that *you* actually play the character that way. Too often I see tree-hugging nature-freak PCs who still treat their AC with indifference simply because it benefits them mechanically. Sort of a have your cake and eat it too thing. I don't want to see specific rules in game forcing players to treat their AC a certain way. I just think that the character should have a theme and stick to it. But I guess that is just the old 'role' vs. 'roll' argument that is just a waste of time
*sigh*|
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It's not hard for me to envision a druid sect who believe that their companions are spirits who reincarnate from one beast to another.
When their companion dies, they eat the meat of the animal, so that they might carry within them the companion spirit. Then they allow some other wild animal to bite them and take the companion spirit.
That's certainly one of many possible explanations why a druid-like PC would treat their AC that way. All I'm asking is that *you* actually play the character that way. Too often I see tree-hugging nature-freak PCs who still treat their AC with indifference simply because it benefits them mechanically. Sort of a have your cake and eat it too thing. I don't want to see specific rules in game forcing players to treat their AC a certain way. I just think that the character should have a theme and stick to it. But I guess that is just the old 'role' vs. 'roll' argument that is just a waste of time
*sigh*
I undertsand what you are saying, but as you stated in anothee FOrum. let people play their own characters.
I presonally agree. That I prefer to play with someone playes a rounded character VS a stat block of numbers. But that is my preference, and I would say I am immoral to tell someone else how they shoud play their characters.
Then to agree with you again in preference. Someone that knows to hows and whys to their character I find more enjoyable.
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It's not hard for me to envision a druid sect who believe that their companions are spirits who reincarnate from one beast to another.
When their companion dies, they eat the meat of the animal, so that they might carry within them the companion spirit. Then they allow some other wild animal to bite them and take the companion spirit.
That's certainly one of many possible explanations why a druid-like PC would treat their AC that way. All I'm asking is that *you* actually play the character that way. Too often I see tree-hugging nature-freak PCs who still treat their AC with indifference simply because it benefits them mechanically. Sort of a have your cake and eat it too thing. I don't want to see specific rules in game forcing players to treat their AC a certain way. I just think that the character should have a theme and stick to it. But I guess that is just the old 'role' vs. 'roll' argument that is just a waste of time
*sigh*
I am currently replaying Eyes of the Ten with a fellow player who has a ranger. He has an animal companion. He actually roleplays like his character gives two wits about his animal companion's life, and thus makes decisions (sometimes even taking a move action to command the animal) for the life safety of the animal.
Its refreshing to see.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Furthermore, my summoner is deluded and believes that his eidolon is an avatar of Sarenrae, so he is very reverent.
You believe that druid pets are fire and forget OP broken meat shields... But you play a summoner....
Are you also advocating that eidolons deaths should have negative consequences?
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Just downloaded the new ACG pregens and I had to look over this pregen. At first glance, here are some changes:
Added a longsword!
Many skill changes: Climb from +4 to +6, removed Diplomacy, Intimidate from +4 to +6, Swim from +4 to +6
Changed trait Fangwood Diplomat to Killer
Equipment:
added a second potion of Mage Armor
removed wand of Mage Armor
Leryn changes ...
Removed Linguistics of -3
Removed Language Common
All in all, adding a much needed melee weapon and a little polishing around the edges. Nothing else major that I can see.
For those have downloaded this, does the hunter pregen's animal companion know any Skirmisher ranger hunter's tricks? If so, I'd be interested to see how that was handled, given the known amiguity in that rule ...
Unfortunately... Leryn does not know any Skirmisher tricks, just the standard tricks. I was likewise hoping to see something on the Pregen; however, it seems they are just as unsure about the ruling as we are.
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Designer
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For those have downloaded this, does the hunter pregen's animal companion know any Skirmisher ranger hunter's tricks? If so, I'd be interested to see how that was handled, given the known amiguity in that rule ...Unfortunately... Leryn does not know any Skirmisher tricks, just the standard tricks. I was likewise hoping to see something on the Pregen; however, it seems they are just as unsure about the ruling as we are.
As the one who built the pregens, I can say that, rather, I didn't want to build a pregen that then was invalidated because the PDT together ruled differently than I would. It is on my Top 10(ish) list of high-priority FAQs, though.
Unfortunately... Leryn does not know any Skirmisher tricks, just the standard tricks.It depends on your definition of "standard tricks". There are several tricks from Animal Archive including Detect, Flank, Get Help, Hunt, Menace and Sneak.
Touche. I should have stated "Non-Skirmisher" tricks. I consider all others to be "standard" when it comes to the Hunter AC, but I can see how that could be misconstrued.
As the one who built the pregens, I can say that, rather, I didn't want to build a pregen that then was invalidated because the PDT together ruled differently than I would. It is on my Top 10(ish) list of high-priority FAQs, though.For those have downloaded this, does the hunter pregen's animal companion know any Skirmisher ranger hunter's tricks? If so, I'd be interested to see how that was handled, given the known amiguity in that rule ...Unfortunately... Leryn does not know any Skirmisher tricks, just the standard tricks. I was likewise hoping to see something on the Pregen; however, it seems they are just as unsure about the ruling as we are.
That makes much more sense! I do believe I put my foot in my mouth with that statement. I must say, Mark, all of us Hunter lovers out there are waiting with abated breath to see the final ruling on the Skirmisher tricks, woe or weal.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Basically the mechanics of getting a new pet greatly favor the disposable philosophy. I don't like that personally.
It is true, that the game doesn't punish you for losing a companion (either via heroic sacrifice or player stupidity), I really can't understand players that would use their AC as an expendable resource.
It really depends on they way they chose to RP it.
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It is the class, along with any class that gets a companion. Abusive players are exactly what you use to balance classes. Because then they are balanced for everyone.
I have never seen an animal companions user sacrifice anything for their pet. The closest I've seen is players sacrificing other players for their pet. Which is even worse in some ways.
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As the one who built the pregens, I can say that, rather, I didn't want to build a pregen that then was invalidated because the PDT together ruled differently than I would. It is on my Top 10(ish) list of high-priority FAQs, though.For those have downloaded this, does the hunter pregen's animal companion know any Skirmisher ranger hunter's tricks? If so, I'd be interested to see how that was handled, given the known amiguity in that rule ...Unfortunately... Leryn does not know any Skirmisher tricks, just the standard tricks. I was likewise hoping to see something on the Pregen; however, it seems they are just as unsure about the ruling as we are.
Thanks Mark - that's GREAT to hear!
Since you mentioned it, any ETA on a Advanced Class Guide FAQ? It obviously goes without saying that a big, meaty ACG FAQ is desperately needed.
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As the one who built the pregens, I can say that, rather, I didn't want to build a pregen that then was invalidated because the PDT together ruled differently than I would. It is on my Top 10(ish) list of high-priority FAQs, though.For those have downloaded this, does the hunter pregen's animal companion know any Skirmisher ranger hunter's tricks? If so, I'd be interested to see how that was handled, given the known amiguity in that rule ...Unfortunately... Leryn does not know any Skirmisher tricks, just the standard tricks. I was likewise hoping to see something on the Pregen; however, it seems they are just as unsure about the ruling as we are.Thanks Mark - that's GREAT to hear!
Since you mentioned it, any ETA on a Advanced Class Guide FAQ? It obviously goes without saying that a big, meaty ACG FAQ is desperately needed.
They started the ACG FAQ yesterday...
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Just stating the obvious, but might not be the best introduction to PFS to offer a pregen from the Advanced Class Guide or the Advanced Player's Guide to an new player... The APG introduction tells you straight out that these are more complicated classes to play.
In the OP's case, this wouldn't have mattered, because if someone loves a character concept then of course that's what they should play. Eyes lighting up trumps mechanics any day!
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The pregen does use a wolf (well the picture kinda forces the issue), but isn't the wolf one of the least disruptive animal companions? Only one natural attack and tripped enemies are easier to hit for other melee characters.
@David Bowles: After reading quite a bit about your opinion about animal companions, I think that hunter animal companions are frankly the very best of them. They aren't a fire and forget resource, hunters have to coordinate and support their animal companions.
And the teamwork feats are potentially very good for a number of characters, obviously inquisitors and other hunters (don't forget, that they can change their teamwork feats multiple times per day) but also quite a number of classes with martial versatility (brawlers, fighters, oracles). The ability to have another character with the right teamwork feat can be very effective.
Until very recently I tended to avoid animal companions like the plague, but the hunter class finally forced me to interact with them. They are all right, I just wish for more PFS legal options to make them more interesting (more options would be nice).
And lets not forget to thank Mark Seifter for that menacing amulet of mighty fists, other melee characters should love to have Leryn at their side.
As always, most of your grievances seem to be based on players, who were unwilling or at least insensitive to the topic of sharing the spotlight.
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I agree that having hunters rely upon those teamwork feats does mitigate this issue to a certain degree. What it doesn't mitigate is the animal companion's ability to eat an entire scenario by itself. In fact, the teamwork-pumped hunter pet is even BETTER at invalidating other martial classes.
Part of the reason animal companions are fire and forget is that it is quite easy to jack their armor classes out of the reach of the typical NPC. They also have strong fort and reflex saves, as well as evasion. Most NPCs are helpless before them.
Even if an animal companion player "shares the spotlight", there's still the knowledge that my martial PC is rendered mostly meaningless by the pet's presence. Ie, that group's effectiveness is not affected much if my PC were to go down. Like in the event where my GM gets tired of swinging at a pet he can't hit and all the attacks come my way.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I agree that having hunters rely upon those teamwork feats does mitigate this issue to a certain degree. What it doesn't mitigate is the animal companion's ability to eat an entire scenario by itself. In fact, the teamwork-pumped hunter pet is even BETTER at invalidating other martial classes.
Part of the reason animal companions are fire and forget is that it is quite easy to jack their armor classes out of the reach of the typical NPC. They also have strong fort and reflex saves, as well as evasion. Most NPCs are helpless before them.
Even if an animal companion player "shares the spotlight", there's still the knowledge that my martial PC is rendered mostly meaningless by the pet's presence. Ie, that group's effectiveness is not affected much if my PC were to go down. Like in the event where my GM gets tired of swinging at a pet he can't hit and all the attacks come my way.
Well the tactic to use mage armor on animal companions is hardly new, or anything exotic, after all the combo comes from the CRB. The fact, that even the pregen uses it, shows that this tactic is to be expected.
I had "fun" in my Kingmaker campaign, one of my players had a an eidolon with mage armor ... natural 20s were pretty much required, that or touch attacks.
Frankly unless enemies can deal with these situations (a CL1 mage armor should not be impossible to overcome) things like this will happen again. Of course the same is true for tactics involving darkness and mist.
Increasing the NPC item budget might be an option.
The switchable teamwork feats and the constant animal focus buffs you can switch as a swift action don't cut it? You can boost stats, you can boost certain skills like climb, swim, or stealth. You can grant yourself evasion or buff your attacks.
Until very recently I tended to avoid animal companions like the plague, but the hunter class finally forced me to interact with them. They are all right, I just wish for more PFS legal options to make them more interesting (more options would be nice).
The abiltiy to have a magical animal would be nice, you can always get bigger and sronger, like a T-Rex, but .... yeah.
Frankly I would not be so annoyed, if I hadn't seen the relevenat archetypes and feats in the ACG. Of course I can't argue, that the primal companion hunter is balanced, adding even more AC on top of what already exists is ... not great. Oh well I can only hope for it to get nerved ... and that summoner eidlons some day get a reason not to take natural armor instead of an armor bonus from their progression.
Still I think the hunter pregen won't cause any problems from the animal companion side.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I agree that having hunters rely upon those teamwork feats does mitigate this issue to a certain degree. What it doesn't mitigate is the animal companion's ability to eat an entire scenario by itself. In fact, the teamwork-pumped hunter pet is even BETTER at invalidating other martial classes.
Part of the reason animal companions are fire and forget is that it is quite easy to jack their armor classes out of the reach of the typical NPC. They also have strong fort and reflex saves, as well as evasion. Most NPCs are helpless before them.
Even if an animal companion player "shares the spotlight", there's still the knowledge that my martial PC is rendered mostly meaningless by the pet's presence. Ie, that group's effectiveness is not affected much if my PC were to go down. Like in the event where my GM gets tired of swinging at a pet he can't hit and all the attacks come my way.
David --
Is there any chance that I can get you to contribute to an etiquette section for the Druid's Log? Your adverse experience with ACs means that you, probably more than anyone else, could really give good guidelines and insight for players with companions that are really trying to be part of a team rather than nerfing everyone else's spotlight. Should we take this conversation there?
Hmm
I think this character is well made. I have some concerns about the Broken wing/wounded paw line, and the low Armor of the AC but I think she brings something to near any situation.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I think this character is well made. I have some concerns about the Broken wing/wounded paw line, and the low Armor of the AC but I think she brings something to near any situation.
Considering the availability of the mage armor potions the animal companions hp should be pretty decent for the level (23), so Broken Wing Gambit seems like a decent choice. Of course some more levels and Paired Opportunist could come online.
And if our iconic archer is forced into melee, risking the gambit could allow Leryn to make a 4d6 bite attack, seems worth it^^
What kind of action is administering a potion to an AC?
I would have went with Wand of Shield Companion (5 to 10 charges). I was looking at the level 7 version since any pregen can function at level 1. I feel the build gets more important as they go up in level. Level 7-11 Scenarios can get very deadly.
@Sebastian: I didn't think about the other way around. I was more worried about Adowyn doing damage with her bow. Which, while respectable, IMO not worth increase +hit and damage to some of these baddies. But considering Leryn gets a trip on his/her attacks I can see where that would a huge boon.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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@ Slacker2010: Shield companion is a nice spell (though I am a bit unclear whether you still need those platinum rings) and seems like a nice choice for hunters, and since it is a level 1 wand plenty of players have that option.
@David Bowles: So what options do hunters really have ? not buff their AC? And remember animal companions can't easily benefit from rings of protection (item slot) and shields (rules limitation).
Of course, if the party has a friendly alchemist everybody can gain shield and enemies will never hit again.
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@ Slacker2010: Shield companion is a nice spell (though I am a bit unclear whether you still need those platinum rings) and seems like a nice choice for hunters, and since it is a level 1 wand plenty of players have that option.
Hmmm ... just checked out shield companion and it's a pretty cool spell. I'm not sure what you are referring to with the platinum rings though - there is no mention of platinum rings anywhere in the spell. Are you referring to the material component in shield other?
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@ Slacker2010: Shield companion is a nice spell (though I am a bit unclear whether you still need those platinum rings) and seems like a nice choice for hunters, and since it is a level 1 wand plenty of players have that option.
@David Bowles: So what options do hunters really have ? not buff their AC? And remember animal companions can't easily benefit from rings of protection (item slot) and shields (rules limitation).
Of course, if the party has a friendly alchemist everybody can gain shield and enemies will never hit again.
Hunters have the same options druids do. Barding that stacks with natural armor to send AC to very high levels. I'm saying that animals should not mechanically be able to get better defenses than a fully armored martial PC. Evidently Paizo disagrees.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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@ Slacker2010: Shield companion is a nice spell (though I am a bit unclear whether you still need those platinum rings) and seems like a nice choice for hunters, and since it is a level 1 wand plenty of players have that option.Hmmm ... just checked out shield companion and it's a pretty cool spell. I'm not sure what you are referring to with the platinum rings though - there is no mention of platinum rings anywhere in the spell. Are you referring to the material component in shield other?
Yes, since shield companion references shield other and shield companion does not have a separate components line, I assume that the components are identical to shield other.
I assume that this isn't intended, since the vast majority of suitable targets can't wear rings.
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@ Slacker2010: Shield companion is a nice spell (though I am a bit unclear whether you still need those platinum rings) and seems like a nice choice for hunters, and since it is a level 1 wand plenty of players have that option.Hmmm ... just checked out shield companion and it's a pretty cool spell. I'm not sure what you are referring to with the platinum rings though - there is no mention of platinum rings anywhere in the spell. Are you referring to the material component in shield other?Yes, since shield companion references shield other and shield companion does not have a separate components line, I assume that the components are identical to shield other.
I assume that this isn't intended, since the vast majority of suitable targets can't wear rings.
Shield Companion
School abjuration; Level paladin 2, ranger 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target your companion creature
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Shield Companion has no Material component. It only has Verbal and Somantic.
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There are two spells called Shield Companion, you're talking about different things. :(
They're both handy, but in different ways. The new one eats Immediate Actions, which is a bummer.
Shield Companion
School abjuration; Level antipaladin 1, druid 1, paladin 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1CASTING
Target your animal companion, familiar, or fiendish servant
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as shield other but affects only the caster's animal companion or familiar. Spellcasters from classes that do not normally gain an animal companion, familiar, or fiendish servant but who gain one through an alternate class feature, archetype, or prestige class can prepare and cast this spell as a 1st-level spell if they are capable of casting spells.
OOOHHHH! I had no idea. Yes, in the case of this one, it would require the normal rings as Shield Other, since you default to the underlying spell when such a line is left out of the new spell description.
