I am working on a Human Bloodrager (Advanced Classes Guide) with the abyssal blood line to take advantage of the rage claws at lvl 1 (also because abyssal is just nuts compared to the other bloodlines) & I want to optimize unarmed damage.
I have:
lvl 1. Claws (su): 1d6. At lvl 8 they gain 1d6 flaming.
lvl 4. Demonic Bulk (su): +1 size category.
lvl 12 abyssal Bloodrage (ex): which increase strength bonus from blood rage by 2 (4 at lvl 16 & 6 at lvl 20)
Bloodrager Spells:
Enlarge person +1 size category
animal aspect, Gorilla unarmed damage +1 size category
Bull's strength (bloodline bonus lvl 2 spell)
Rage (bloodline bonus lvl 3 spell)
Elemental touch + 1d6 of fire, ice, acid, or shock damage (chose one)
Beast shape II (I'd go with Dire ape)
So if I start as a medium size human use beast shape II to turn in to a dire ape (large) use enlarge person (huge) blood rage with Demonic bulk (gargantuan) then finally use animal aspect, gorilla to give my unarmed damage +1 size, my resulting unarmed damage would be equivalent to that of a colossal ape.
3 questions:
1. Is this how this works, or am I being overly optimistic?
2. Would Feats like Improved unarmed strike & 2WF (unarmed) do anything for this build or do they not apply to natural weapons?
3. Are there any other feats that would further enhance the unarmed DPS of this build?
1. That is not how size increases work. You'll only get the increased size one time, so you'll just be large. Also the Rage spell morale bonuses won't stack with your bloodrage morale bonuses. It's still a decent build even with only being large sized.
2. Those feats do not apply to natural weapons
3. Improved Natural Attack, but perhaps not legal depending on your DM. Power Attack and Arcane Strike will help and are definitely legal.
And if you are using Arcane Strike, you should advance to Blooded Arcane Strike:
Arcane energy guides your devastating attack.
Prerequisite(s): Arcane Strike, ability to cast arcane spells, bloodrage class feature.
Benefit: While you are bloodraging, you don't need to spend a swift action to use your Arcane Strike—it is always in effect. When you use this ability with Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, the bonus on damage rolls for Arcane Strike is multiplied by the number of times (two, three, or four) you roll damage dice for one of those feats.
And the Vital Strike chain becomes more attractive with this feat.
Just for clarification
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Enlarge person (increases size obviously), but not a polymorph effect
Animal Aspect - Transmutation (polymorph)Rage wont stack with your bloodrage abilities
Bull's strength works fine, though it is an enhancement bonus and wont stack with a belt of giant strength which is also an enhancement bonus
Beast Shape - Transmutation (polymorph)
You can only be under the effect of one of either enlarge person, beast shape, or animal aspect.
Why human? Go Half-Orc if you are using natural weapons, to get a bite as well.
Just for clarification
Enlarge person (increases size obviously), but not a polymorph effect
Animal Aspect - Transmutation (polymorph)
Rage wont stack with your bloodrage abilities
Bull's strength works fine, though it is an enhancement bonus and wont stack with a belt of giant strength which is also an enhancement bonus
Beast Shape - Transmutation (polymorph)You can only be under the effect of one of either enlarge person, beast shape, or animal aspect.
Yeah, I figured as much. My next question is would one of those at least stack with the Demonic Bulk Bloodrage ability, or does it still count as a polymorph?
It says in the description "(as enlarge person, even if you aren’t humanoid)" but I have always had a bit of trepidation as to weather that meant "counts as" or simply means "mechanically comparable to".
It is a Supernatural ability & the quoted text above does specify that I can only be affected by one polymorph Spell at a time. since this is not a spell but a bloodrage ability it's allowed right?
Why human? Go Half-Orc if you are using natural weapons, to get a bite as well.
Personal preference; no other reason. You are right, Orc would be mechanically superior choice for this build, but it's not always just about numbers on a sheet.
Sample feat progression without monk dip:
Human
Abyssal bloodline
(1) Weapon focus: claws, Improved unarmed strike (blood conduit bonus), Feral combat training (human bonus)
(2)
(3) Dragon style
(4) Eschew materials (bloodrager bonus)
(5) Arcane strike
(6) Power attack (bloodline bonus)
(7) Blooded arcane strike
(8)
(9) Stunning fist, Improved trip (bloodline/archetype bonus)
(10)
(11) Dragon ferocity
(12) Improved grapple (bloodline/archetype bonus)Dragon style adds some nice bonuses too (ignore difficult terrain on charge, bonus on certain saves) while Ferocity beefs up damage and can add on a shaken effect. Dipping monk gives easier access to dragon ferocity, place slot would be level 3 and go MoMS. This would delay spell progression and bloodline powers though.
Several problems with this build:
Weapon Focus: Claws would normally only be allowed if you have permanent claws, not rounds/day. This alone makes this build questionable. It is the reason why most Dragon disciple builds dipped ranger fr Aspect of the Beast claws.
Second, it's very feat intensive without the bonus feats from MoMS.
I am very much on the fence between Blood Conduit and the route you suggest or a 1-2 level MoMS-dip and taking the Rageshaper Archetype.
Maybe a Rageshaper Draconic Bloodrager with the Monk-dip?
Increase natural attack dice by all natural attacks gained through bloodline powers (Ie, FotD II) and apply your insane strength at x2 for your first claw, and x1.5 for your second claw (as well as your tail and bite attack).
Also, consider grabbing Eldritch Heritage with the Orcish bloodline for more strength on either build, and maybe Power of Giants would allow the rager to be useful if at anytime he runs out of rage.
Just for clarification
Enlarge person (increases size obviously), but not a polymorph effect
Animal Aspect - Transmutation (polymorph)
Rage wont stack with your bloodrage abilities
Bull's strength works fine, though it is an enhancement bonus and wont stack with a belt of giant strength which is also an enhancement bonus
Beast Shape - Transmutation (polymorph)You can only be under the effect of one of either enlarge person, beast shape, or animal aspect.
Yeah, I figured as much. My next question is would one of those at least stack with the Demonic Bulk Bloodrage ability, or does it still count as a polymorph?
It says in the description "(as enlarge person, even if you aren’t humanoid)" but I have always had a bit of trepidation as to weather that meant "counts as" or simply means "mechanically comparable to".
It is a Supernatural ability & the quoted text above does specify that I can only be affected by one polymorph Spell at a time. since this is not a spell but a bloodrage ability it's allowed right?
The polymorph section is about spells, but this rule applies generally to all size affecting increases. You can't have more than one. I know it's not clear, but that is the situation. Since Demonic Bulk works like a spell, you cannot have any other size increasing effect that will work on you at the same time.
Basically because it says as Enlarge Person, it works exactly like the spell. Which has that restriction.
Why human? Go Half-Orc if you are using natural weapons, to get a bite as well.Personal preference; no other reason. You are right, Orc would be mechanically superior choice for this build, but it's not always just about numbers on a sheet.
Ah, how refreshing! Theme trumps maxing! When any of my players express an interest in a monstrous race (and believe me, 1/2 orc qualifies, even if it is a core race), I warn them that there will be role-playing ramifications in game.
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Well the thread title was "Optimising Bloodrager Unarmed Fighter."
Excuse me for suggesting ways to make the character stronger.
Nobody said you were wrong to make the suhhestion! Half-orc is be
etter. I think Fourshadow was admiring the OP, not bashing you ;).
I personally like fluff and builds need to make sense from a RP perspective as much as from an 'o-please-let-me-be-useful' standpoint.
Though I disagree on the point that being a half-orc should have repercussions. Normal race in Golarion, no weirder than gnomes or dwarfs. Anything besides human and maybe half-elf is exotic, but not disliked too much imo.
The polymorph section is about spells, but this rule applies generally to all size affecting increases. You can't have more than one. I know it's not clear, but that is the situation. Since Demonic Bulk works like a spell, you cannot have any other size increasing effect that will work on you at the same time.
Basically because it says as Enlarge Person, it works exactly like the spell. Which has that restriction.
I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. You're jumping to a conclusion base on an assumption with very little supporting evidence. First, if it worked exactly like the spell (which the word "exactly" does not appear in the description in the book) it wouldn't be a supernatural ability it would be a spell like ability. You can dispel enlarge, but not demonic bulk. There are mechanical differences in how they function. It is not exact, a better word would be "comparable".
Second, you can not simply assume a given rule applies unilaterally even to unrelated effects, "just because". If it's not written, it's not a rule, unless the DM says otherwise of course. If you can point me to a Paizo book (not third party, not WotC) that says, "only one step of size increase is allowed from ANY source, not just spells" or some variation there of I'll gladly concede the point; but given the text here I have no reason to believe that a supernatural size increase doesn't stack with a spell induced size increase especially since other people in this thread have given the same interpretations of the rules as me. That passage is very clearly only prohibiting the stacking of spells. I could even see the argument being made if Daemonic Bulk was a magical or spell like ability, but it's not even that much.
It's not a spell so, as I see it, it does not apply.
Several problems with this build:
Weapon Focus: Claws would normally only be allowed if you have permanent claws, not rounds/day.
Why? I don't permanently have a long sword growing out of my hand, but I can have long sword WF. I've noticed people tend to make assumptions simply because it seems to "just makes sense". In some cases it makes so much sense you don't even realize you're assuming, you just thought you were following logic & common sense, but is it actually written in the description of the feat that you must have permanent claws to take WF claws? Nope. Like I said before, if you can point me to text in a book that says so, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong, but the core book says no such thing.
From enlarge person, which demonic bulk replicates: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Supernatural abilities are still magical....The polymorph section is about spells, but this rule applies generally to all size affecting increases. You can't have more than one. I know it's not clear, but that is the situation. Since Demonic Bulk works like a spell, you cannot have any other size increasing effect that will work on you at the same time.
Basically because it says as Enlarge Person, it works exactly like the spell. Which has that restriction.
I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. You're jumping to a conclusion base on an assumption with very little supporting evidence. First, if it worked exactly like the spell (which the word "exactly" does not appear in the description in the book) it wouldn't be a supernatural ability it would be a spell like ability. You can dispel enlarge, but not demonic bulk. There are mechanical differences in how they function. It is not exact, a better word would be "comparable".
Second, you can not simply assume a given rule applies unilaterally even to unrelated effects, "just because". If it's not written, it's not a rule, unless the DM says otherwise of course. If you can point me to a Paizo book (not third party, not WotC) that says, "only one step of size increase is allowed from ANY source, not just spells" or some variation there of I'll gladly concede the point; but given the text here I have no reason to believe that a supernatural size increase doesn't stack with a spell induced size increase especially since other people in this thread have given the same interpretations of the rules as me. That passage is very clearly only prohibiting the stacking of spells. I could even see the argument being made if Daemonic Bulk was a magical or spell like ability, but it's not even that much.
It's not a spell so, as I see it, it does not apply.
Yeah, looks like you can't go Gargantuan, bro. The way that's worded, it seems to be a blanket rule that's written into a spell. Unusual, but there you go.
I am working on a Human Bloodrager (Advanced Classes Guide) with the abyssal blood line to take advantage of the rage claws at lvl 1 (also because abyssal is just nuts compared to the other bloodlines) & I want to optimize unarmed damage.
Dragon Bloodline would be better. It not only also gives you claws but allows you to enter Dragon Disciple, which is just re-di-coo-luss (and better than just advancing in Bloodrager - you lose out on some spellcasting, but spells are an afterthought to the class to begin with; instead, you get a permanent +4 to Str and +2 to Con, which much is better than Improved Rage, and your levels in Dragon Disciple stack with Bloodrager for determining which Bloodline abilities you get, so you'll still receive Wings at lv12 like normal).
If you take the Trait, Adopted (Orc - Tusked) you gain a Bite attack even as a Human.
You also need to take Pummeling Strike. Not want - NEED. That feat is now basically as necessary for an Unarmed combatant as Rapid Shot is for an Archer.
You should also take the Primalist Archetype, as it would allow you to take Fiend Totem at lv4 to gain a Gore attack. If you take the TWF tree, you'll gain, at lv12, 8 attacks a round on a Full Attack Action, though they won't be increased in damage the same way a Monk, Sacred Fist, Warpriest, or Brawler's would be.
Why? I don't permanently have a long sword growing out of my hand, but I can have long sword WF. I've noticed people tend to make assumptions simply because it seems to "just makes sense". In some cases it makes so much sense you don't even realize you're assuming, you just thought you were following logic & common sense, but is it actually written in the description of the feat that you must have permanent claws to take WF claws? Nope. Like I said before, if you can point me to text in a book that says so, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong, but the core book says no such thing.
Several problems with this build:
Weapon Focus: Claws would normally only be allowed if you have permanent claws, not rounds/day.
Because you permanently have Proficiency with Longsword as an aspect of your Class. You cannot take Weapon Focus (Longsword) when you Level Up if you only temporarily gain Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword), because Feat Prerequisites must be active when you gain the dependent Feat (which 99% of the time happens when you Level Up).
You permanently have Proficiency with Unarmed Strikes, because there's literally no way for you to NOT (you always have a form - that's just a given), thus you can take WF with Unarmed Strikes.
Proficiency with Natural Attacks, however, are only active while that Natural Weapon is; as soon as you lose Natural Weapon, you lose Natural Weapon Proficiency with that Natural Weapon. As soon as (x) disappears, you are no longer considered to have NWP; conversely, once (x) comes back, you regain NWP.
For instance, if you're a Dragonmaw Kobold, you ALWAYS have Proficiency with Natural Weapon (Bite) because it's always "on."
If you're a Kobold Barbarian with Dragon Claws, however, you can't select Claws as a target for Weapon Focus if you gained it by leveling up because they aren't "on" when you do so - they're only "on" when you rage, and you can't perma-rage; once your Claws are gone, "Weapon Proficiency (Claw)" disappears from your character, because the requisite quality is gone.
---
HOWEVER, there is ONE loophole: Martial Versatility. Because Martial Versatility lets you temporarily "gain" a feat mid-combat, you can use it to gain WF with a temporary Natural Weapon.
IF, for instance, you are a Brawler/Barbarian with the Dragon Claws Rage Power, then, while you are Raging, you may take Weapon Focus (Claw) because at that VERY MOMENT you do, in fact, have Claws, and thus have Natural Weapon Proficiency (Claws) as an aspect of your Character.
The polymorph section is about spells, but this rule applies generally to all size affecting increases. You can't have more than one. I know it's not clear, but that is the situation. Since Demonic Bulk works like a spell, you cannot have any other size increasing effect that will work on you at the same time.
Basically because it says as Enlarge Person, it works exactly like the spell. Which has that restriction.
I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. You're jumping to a conclusion base on an assumption with very little supporting evidence. First, if it worked exactly like the spell (which the word "exactly" does not appear in the description in the book) it wouldn't be a supernatural ability it would be a spell like ability. You can dispel enlarge, but not demonic bulk. There are mechanical differences in how they function. It is not exact, a better word would be "comparable".
Second, you can not simply assume a given rule applies unilaterally even to unrelated effects, "just because". If it's not written, it's not a rule, unless the DM says otherwise of course. If you can point me to a Paizo book (not third party, not WotC) that says, "only one step of size increase is allowed from ANY source, not just spells" or some variation there of I'll gladly concede the point; but given the text here I have no reason to believe that a supernatural size increase doesn't stack with a spell induced size increase especially since other people in this thread have given the same interpretations of the rules as me. That passage is very clearly only prohibiting the stacking of spells. I could even see the argument being made if Daemonic Bulk was a magical or spell like ability, but it's not even that much.
It's not a spell so, as I see it, it does not apply.
the Devs actually said that if something behaves like an spell, then it counts as that spell. so when something says, as enlarge person or any other spell, it effectively acts like that spell except where it specifies it is different.
for instance, copycat basically is mirror image. Likewise, your ability IS effectively Enlarge Person.
and well, you cannot cast enlarge person on yourself twice and get them to stack. :P
The character would qualify for weapon focus(claws) if you take SKRs interpretation. Per him, to meet a feat prerequisite, an ability doesn't have to be always on, you just need a reliable means of accessing it every day. Here is the dev post where this is stated out. However, Jason wants an always on ability. To make it even unclearer, weapon focus has its own exception.
TLDR: If your character has ever had a natural weapon, he permanently gains the proficiency, and qualifies for weapon feats for that natural weapon.
It probably all comes down to DM interpretation of "reliable". My definition is strict: "reliable" only means, to me, that it's "active" by default; meaning, if you're character is unconscious or an effect ends, and the Natural Weapon doesn't disappear, then it's defaultly "on" and "reliable"; if it disappears when you're unconscious or an effect ends, then it's by-default "off" and so "unreliable."
In other words, if one of my players approached me with this, I'd rule it as "if it's not permanently on or on by default, you can't take the dependent Feat on level-up".
If the player were playing a Changeling, Tengu, Catfolk, or similar Race which can have Claws permanently, or character who permanently gains Natural Attacks via Feats, Traits, Class abilities (such as Metallic Wings or Tail Terror), then I would say "yes" since the default status for all those instances is "on".
If the default is "off", as in the case of Fiend Totem or Beast Totem, then I would rule "no" since you actively have to turn them "on," and would only gain NWP when they are active.
Please see the second post I linked. This character qualifies for weapon focus(claws).It probably all comes down to DM interpretation.
If one of my players approached me with this, I'd rule it as "if it's not permanently on or on by default, you can't take the dependent Feat on level-up".
If the player were playing a Changeling, Tengu, Catfolk, or similar Race which can have Claws permanently, or character who permanently gains Natural Attacks via Feats, Traits, Class abilities (such as Metallic Wings or Tail Terror), then I would say "yes" since the default status for all those instances is "on".
If the default is "off", as in the case of Fiend Totem or Beast Totem, then I would rule "no" since you actively have to turn them "on," and would only gain NWP when they are active.
Again, while I'm inclined to always agree with SKR, I am saying that, as a DM, in this case, I wouldn't allow it for the reasons I stated; it doesn't make a lot of logical sense, and so I would rule "no" even if that means it's a houserule (I don't DM PFS - just my home group), and explain my reasoning as I did to the player(s).
In either case, taking Claws is generally just a bad idea.
You can't make iterative attacks with Claws, and so you're better off going with just TWF Unarmed Strikes and gaining extra Natural Attacks.
Think the debate is similar to the duscussion on Power Attack and FoB at level 1 as a monk. Think it was also stated by Sean K Reynolds that he would allow a character to take PA and only use it while flurrying.
I think he might have a point. But it is not a ruling, but an opinion (though valuable).
As for as I am concerned I'd like to take WF: claws on a bloodrager and in a home-game I'd allow it. But I don't find it to be RAW.
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It's amazing how this thread has turned into a rules debate on weapon proficiency and supernatural vs. spells/spell-like abilities.
Weapon focus requires +1 BAB and weapon proficiency. So when does the bloodrager become proficient? It never says he does at all, unlike the druid ("They [druids] are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape").
So the bloodrager, and all the other claw/bite/slam/... hopeful classes out there are nonproficient and attacking with a -4 penalty.
Wait...that can't be right.
The reason why the bloodrager doesn't take a -4 penalty to these claw attacks is because he is already proficient with them. Like unarmed strike, natural attacks are considered simple weapons. Thus no penalty. The druid, however, doesn't have simple weapons proficiency, only a list of weapons they can use (one of three classes that don't get access, with the others being monk and wizard). And among that list are the natural weapons of any animal form they take via wild shape.
It's amazing how this thread has turned into a rules debate on weapon proficiency and supernatural vs. spells/spell-like abilities.
I can't speak for others but I am not arguing. I just want people to cite their sources. If for no other reason than, when I go to apply the rule I can cite my source as well; & if there is no source, then it's not really a rule, is it?
the Devs actually said that if something behaves like an spell, then it counts as that spell. so when something says, as enlarge person or any other spell, it effectively acts like that spell except where it specifies it is different.
for instance, copycat basically is mirror image. Likewise, your ability IS effectively Enlarge Person.
and well, you cannot cast enlarge person on yourself twice and get them to stack. :P
one clarification. I am not trying to stack enlarge person twice. I am trying to stack Demonic bulk (which yes is "like" enlarge person) with, say beast shape II for example which has the option of turning me in to a large animal. Are you saying I cant be an enlarged horse?
How about animal aspect I (Gorilla)? That doesn't actually increase my size at all, just my unarmed damage [a]as though[/i] I was one size bigger.
I have a whole host of spells I am considering here, I'm willing to pass on enlarge but there are other options.
From enlarge person, which demonic bulk replicates: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Supernatural abilities are still magical. Every spell that affects size has this condition, and it is a general rule.
Pg. 554 of the PF Core Book:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical...
It's the very first line. You are right, Demonic bulk is magical & by the wording you quoted from the spell they do not stack. Point conceded.
Nobody said you were wrong to make the suhhestion! Half-orc is be
etter. I think Fourshadow was admiring the OP, not bashing you ;).I personally like fluff and builds need to make sense from a RP perspective as much as from an 'o-please-let-me-be-useful' standpoint.
Though I disagree on the point that being a half-orc should have repercussions. Normal race in Golarion, no weirder than gnomes or dwarfs. Anything besides human and maybe half-elf is exotic, but not disliked too much imo.
To each their own as I see nothing voluntary in the origin of a 1/2 Orc. Same can be said of any race, but that one in particular.
However, that is a topic for another thread entirely, so I will drop it at that.