So, we all know how some characers are SAD and some are MAD as all hell. Well The challange I raise to you all, try and find the SADest character of all!
With all the new classes, archetypes, and feats that let you swap around stats (and all the people complaining about said classes, feats, and archetypes) I feel like we can create a whole new standard for a truly SAD character.
Personally I feel the Loradin (using CHA for damn near everything), the Zen Archer, and the Scarred Witch Doctor are teh SAD champions but I may be wrong!
Is the win condition how many things you can apply one stat to or how effective a character is with one stat? If the latter, wizard wins as usual.
I would say the most effective charactar you can make with a single stat. And, funny enough, the Wizard would look MAD vs something like a Oracle with a 2 level dip into Pally.
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I guess Lore oracle + paladin 2 (Divine grace) + the feat divine protection(ACG)...yeah divine protection is an insight bonus, divine grace bonus is untyped, so you get to add twice your cha bonus to saves, it's very ridiculous, on top of it cha for nearly everything. While cha is still your main casting stat so even with 2 levels down, you'll still reach 9th level spells.
I guess Lore oracle + paladin 2 (Divine grace) + the feat divine protection(ACG)...yeah divine protection is an insight bonus, divine grace bonus is untyped, so you get to add twice your cha bonus to saves, it's very ridiculous, on top of it cha for nearly everything. While cha is still your main casting stat so even with 2 levels down, you'll still reach 9th level spells.
You might want to take another look at the Divine Protection feat -- it explicitly mentions that if you are getting charisma to saves from another source such as Divine Grace, you just get +1 to all your saves from the feat.
The real benefit from that feat could occur when you reach 7th level and are an oracle 5/paladin 2. You could take Divine Protection at that level, so you are now adding charisma bonus +1 to all your saves. At this point you might decide to retrain your 2nd oracle level into a 6th oracle level, with the result that you still add charisma bonus to saves and get 3rd level cleric/oracle spells to replace your lost Lay on Hands ability.
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Lore Oracle 6/Agent of the Grave 1/Lore oracle 13
Revelations:
Lore Keeper
Side Step Secret
Feats:
Divine protection
Noble Scion War
(Not sure what the feat is called but there is one that gives charisma to will saves against fear I think)
Total:
Charisma now works for my knowledge skills, health, Armor class, reflex saves twice, will saves, fortitude saves, initiative, and will saves VS fear.
If this character started evil, and later became lawful good he could cast Bestow "grace of the champion" on himself to gain charisma to attack rolls as well. There is nothing to say I lose my class features in Agent of the grave (I could be wrong though)
The other method would be instead of agent of the grave be an undead with one level of anti paladin so that he has smite good. This would also give his charisma to fortitude twice.
Scarred witch.
20 con. All other stats 7 or 10.
Yep, Scarred Witch Doctor archetype
Nowadays it is pretty much all about the Lore/Nature/Lunar Oracle. No need for any Paladin levels or anything else really. You want:
Level 1: Noble Scion of War Feat - use Charisma for Initiative instead of Dexterity
Level 1: Sidestep Secret or equivalent revelation - use Charisma for AC and Reflex saves in place of Dexterity
Level 1: Irrepressible Trait - use Charisma instead of Wisdom for saves against mind affecting effects
Level 3: Lore Keeper revelation allowing you to make Knowledge checks using Charisma instead of Intelligence. Nature and Lunar Oracles can gain the same effect using the Spirit Guide archetype and choosing the Benefit of Wisdom Hex (the archetype changes the benefit to Charisma).
Level 5: Divine Protection Feat - add Charisma modifier to all saves
Make sure at some point to purchase a Circlet of Command. It adds +3 to all Charisma Checks (not just skills) which will arguably include Initiative and Reflex saves.
Also be aware that many GM's will nix the idea of Divine Protection stacking with Sidestep Secret for Reflex saves. It isnt a big deal as your Reflex save will still be enormous.
Well a 1 level paladin dip is actually still useful due to Smite. When Fighting something evil you then Cha AGAIN xD
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Nowadays it is pretty much all about the Lore/Nature/Lunar Oracle. No need for any Paladin levels or anything else really. You want:
Level 1: Noble Scion of War Feat - use Charisma for Initiative instead of Dexterity
Level 1: Sidestep Secret or equivalent revelation - use Charisma for AC and Reflex saves in place of Dexterity
Level 1: Irrepressible Trait - use Charisma instead of Wisdom for saves against mind affecting effects
Level 3: Lore Keeper revelation allowing you to make Knowledge checks using Charisma instead of Intelligence. Nature and Lunar Oracles can gain the same effect using the Spirit Guide archetype and choosing the Benefit of Wisdom Hex (the archetype changes the benefit to Charisma).
Level 5: Divine Protection Feat - add Charisma modifier to all saves
Make sure at some point to purchase a Circlet of Command. It adds +3 to all Charisma Checks (not just skills) which will arguably include Initiative and Reflex saves.
Also be aware that many GM's will nix the idea of Divine Protection stacking with Sidestep Secret for Reflex saves. It isnt a big deal as your Reflex save will still be enormous.
To add:
-Mysterious stranger nets you charisma to damage
-Dips on bard open the path for pengeant of the peacock, use bluff(cha based) to make any intelligence check
-Paladin lets you heal a number of times according to your cha
-You can get TRIPLE grit/panache/inspiration when combining swshbuckler, mysterious stranger and the other investigator archetype(dont remember the name)
- Only thing is missing is charisma to attack roll altought smite evil get you this on a situational basis
- Combinations of the unarmed paladin, monk and champion of iori can get you almost unlimited smites
Bestow Grace of the Champion can cover multiple smites and other paladin abilities. Pageant of the Peacock is pretty awesome, but I'm ok with just using Spirit Guide to get Benefit of Wisdom and not having to dip. Though seriously, Spirit Guide is amazing for Oracles. Now if only Arcane Enlightenment had been written to work with spontaneous caster...
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Not sure about this one but for a less situational charisma to attack rolls could a mythic tier three with beyond morality be both a paladin and antipaladin? Throw in hell knight for smite chaos and now only lawful neutral and true neutral is safe from your charisma.
But I have no clue if you actually can do that or not so it very likely does not work.
Edit: I forgot that smite gives you a deflection bonus to AC against the target of your smite.
Well a 1 level paladin dip is actually still useful due to Smite. When Fighting something evil you then Cha AGAIN xDI wouldnt give up a caster level for a 1/day bonus to AC against a single creature. I tend to build my Oracles as casters first and rarely do they ever make any form of physical attack so the extra attack and damage is also fairly irrelevant.
Ah ok lol. I love making Dark Tapestry Oracles with races that pump up a revelation so that I can abuse the Many Forms ability xD. That ability is just awesome (Form of the Dragon 2 as a Su ability? I think yes!)
Loradin Graveknight?
Nowadays it is pretty much all about the Lore/Nature/Lunar Oracle. No need for any Paladin levels or anything else really. You want:
Level 1: Noble Scion of War Feat - use Charisma for Initiative instead of Dexterity
Level 1: Sidestep Secret or equivalent revelation - use Charisma for AC and Reflex saves in place of Dexterity
Level 1: Irrepressible Trait - use Charisma instead of Wisdom for saves against mind affecting effects
Level 3: Lore Keeper revelation allowing you to make Knowledge checks using Charisma instead of Intelligence. Nature and Lunar Oracles can gain the same effect using the Spirit Guide archetype and choosing the Benefit of Wisdom Hex (the archetype changes the benefit to Charisma).
Level 5: Divine Protection Feat - add Charisma modifier to all saves
How does this character contribute during combat aside from being a quick, high-save skill monkey?
It looks to me like a 3/4 BAB melee class without martial weapon proficiency and slightly late Cleric spells as a vain attempt to patch up those deficiencies.
Nowadays it is pretty much all about the Lore/Nature/Lunar Oracle. No need for any Paladin levels or anything else really. You want:
Level 1: Noble Scion of War Feat - use Charisma for Initiative instead of Dexterity
Level 1: Sidestep Secret or equivalent revelation - use Charisma for AC and Reflex saves in place of Dexterity
Level 1: Irrepressible Trait - use Charisma instead of Wisdom for saves against mind affecting effects
Level 3: Lore Keeper revelation allowing you to make Knowledge checks using Charisma instead of Intelligence. Nature and Lunar Oracles can gain the same effect using the Spirit Guide archetype and choosing the Benefit of Wisdom Hex (the archetype changes the benefit to Charisma).
Level 5: Divine Protection Feat - add Charisma modifier to all saves
How does this character contribute during combat aside from being a quick, high-save skill monkey?
It looks to me like a 3/4 BAB melee class without martial weapon proficiency and slightly late Cleric spells as a vain attempt to patch up those deficiencies.
Um... it's a full casting class oracle? How do caster oracles normally contribute to combat? They cast spells.
Which spells? It is not a class I have seen much at the table.
If it were a Cleric, it could use buff spells to pretend to be a Fighter. But it is using all its feats in non-combat stuff, which makes that path less effective.
If it were a Cleric, it could use Sacred Summons. But as an Oracle it has no aura.
What am I missing? How else does the Cleric/Oracle spell list contribute during combat?
Which spells? It is not a class I have seen much at the table.
If it were a Cleric, it could use buff spells to pretend to be a Fighter. But it is using all its feats in non-combat stuff, which makes that path less effective.
If it were a Cleric, it could use Sacred Summons. But as an Oracle it has no aura.
What am I missing? How else does the Cleric/Oracle spell list contribute during combat?
It has access to the entire Cleric spell list. If you think the Cleric can only contribute to combat by using summons or buffing itself into a fighter, then you really have no imagination on how to play a divine caster.
If you want to figure out how to be an Oracle, then play one or read some guides, it's not my job to teach you how to cast.
You need to be a Kobold to get Kobold Confidence, then you base off your Fortitude saves and total amount of damage you can take before dying out of Charisma.
Becoming an Agent of the Grave means that you can then effectively dump Constitution too!
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You need to be a Kobold to get Kobold Confidence, then you base off your Fortitude saves and total amount of damage you can take before dying out of Charisma.
Becoming an Agent of the Grave means that you can then effectively dump Constitution too!
Not totally dump con or else your hp would be very low since only agent of the grave levels count for charisma to hp
Well, not DUMP dump, but you can go 8 CON and patch it up with Favored Class HP bonus on the meanwhile.