Zen Archer and Pummeling Style


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So, I know it is debated as to whether or not you can use Pummeling Style with Weapons, but for the sake of arguement lets say you can...

This creates an interesting situation for the Zen Archer. Would it benefit him more to take clustered shot or pummeling style...

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I was about to post "this only works for melee attacks" but by-God, it doesn't say Melee on there. Jebus... so crazy. It obviously isn't meant to be used on ranged attacks, but as written. Zen Archers can use it. Wow.


The real question.... Firearms? : D


As a GM, I'd never allow it. As a player, I'd never be audacious enough to try to trick my GM into allowing it.


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Hey! Technically it says you can use it with a Flurry of Blows and a Zen Archer can Flurry with his arrows xD, so TECHNICALLY....

If nothing else this will seal the deal to make Zen Archers the best Archers :P (this combined with the "stunning fist-esque" feats would be funny )


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"Technically," does not mean "Any GM with a shred of sense will allow this."


But AM GUNSLINGER PUMMEL WITH BULLETS


Hey I never said I was going to do it lol. It was simply an observation I made after looking at both the Clustered Shot being op thread and the Pummeling Style being OP thread xD


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
But AM GUNSLINGER PUMMEL WITH BULLETS

Clustered Shots already works with firearms. It works with any ranged weapon.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed post. Be civil please.


Apocryphile wrote:
blahpers wrote:
But AM GUNSLINGER PUMMEL WITH BULLETS

Clustered Shots already works with firearms. It works with any ranged weapon.

Pummeling Style is way better for crit-fishing.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Pummeling style will probably be FAQ'd in the near future to do exactly what we all actually know it already does. Unarmed strikes, and (maybe) brawler close weapons.

Trying to use it for a Zen Archer is ridiculous.


Those who truly respect the writer must read the text with the assumption that they are competent.

Taking the corpus of rules as a single text it is perfectly plain that Pummeling Strike must be interpreted with the understanding that Zen Archers and Sohei and that non-monks can take the feat at 6 BAB and monks and brawlers can attain longbow proficiency by spending a feat or being elves and that all brawlers are proficient with crossbows and can take rapid reload. Indeed Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow) or Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow) are among the combat feats brawlers are designed to pick up at need with Martial Flexibility.

If we are not to assume the authors are incompetent they must be aware of the classes the feat prerequisites explicitly reference.

Besides, modern literary criticism tells us that authorial intent is irrelevant anyways.


So this is where all the english majors ended up....


Apocryphile wrote:

Pummeling style will probably be FAQ'd in the near future to do exactly what we all actually know it already does. Unarmed strikes, and (maybe) brawler close weapons.

Trying to use it for a Zen Archer is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous to think that a style ability built on flurry would be usable with monk weapons like every other style feat? There is a one word fix that adjusts Pummeling Style: change normal damage to weapon damage, and bam, feat is good for monks and brawlers and no longer a must have for every non-barbarian/primalist bloodrager.


Brings gun to fist fight.

Pummels other guy to death with gun!


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Calth wrote:
Apocryphile wrote:

Pummeling style will probably be FAQ'd in the near future to do exactly what we all actually know it already does. Unarmed strikes, and (maybe) brawler close weapons.

Trying to use it for a Zen Archer is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous to think that a style ability built on flurry would be usable with monk weapons like every other style feat? There is a one word fix that adjusts Pummeling Style: change normal damage to weapon damage, and bam, feat is good for monks and brawlers and no longer a must have for every non-barbarian/primalist bloodrager.

Except it says:

Pummeling Style wrote:

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

You have to ignore the word punch, given in both the description and the rules explanation. Merriam-Webster defines punch as "to hit (someone or something) hard with your fist."


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Calth wrote:
Apocryphile wrote:

Pummeling style will probably be FAQ'd in the near future to do exactly what we all actually know it already does. Unarmed strikes, and (maybe) brawler close weapons.

Trying to use it for a Zen Archer is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous to think that a style ability built on flurry would be usable with monk weapons like every other style feat? There is a one word fix that adjusts Pummeling Style: change normal damage to weapon damage, and bam, feat is good for monks and brawlers and no longer a must have for every non-barbarian/primalist bloodrager.

Except it says:

Pummeling Style wrote:

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

You have to ignore the word punch, given in both the description and the rules explanation. Merriam-Webster defines punch as "to hit (someone or something) hard with your fist."

However, that is only one possible usage that they cite, for example, as an intransitive verb one of the definitions is:

"to move or push forward especially by a sudden forceful effort <punched into enemy territory>"

Which could cover putting all of your potential into a sudden forceful effort... with a quarterstaf, for example.


Not to mention (as has come up many times before) if you take punch as a strict requirement, it raises plenty of question like whether Pummeling Style can be used with punching daggers, gauntlets, and cesti, and if you're not allowed to used unarmed strikes other than punches, like kicks or headbutts. In short, if it meant unarmed strike, they should've said unarmed strike.

As for improved unarmed strike being a pre-req, that changes nothing. There are plenty of other feats that use it as a pre-req, but can be used just fine with weapons. Heck, some feats like Perfect Strike have improved unarmed strike as a requirement despite not being usable at all with unarmed attacks.

Grand Lodge

The short description says "Pool all unarmed strikes into a single powerful blow". The long description is just poorly worded.


Some Other Guy wrote:
The short description says "Pool all unarmed strikes into a single powerful blow". The long description is just poorly worded.

The problem is that the short description means nothing. Heck, a lot of times the short description isn't even accurate (as the case is for feats like Wind/Lightning Stance where the short description makes it out that you have full on concealment, where if you read the long one, you only gain concealment FROM RANGED ATTACKS


Since the feat uses the word punch I would say that at least one of you attacks has to be a punch. I would even say that it has to be the first attack. Where ever that punch goes then all the rest of the attacks follow.

A ZA could punch you then follow up with arrow attacks but it would not be a flurry. Also very stupid. This feat might be great with natural weapons since you I think some of them can be 19-20 instead of just 20 for a crit.

As GM I would not allow weapons to be used for this unless they modify unarmed strikes.

Shadow Lodge

I like the style, feel like a sniper, hell yeah.

Altought probably is not the intent of the feat one has to admit is really cool. Also can you guys chill? this is just an example of "if this Works like this then..." is not a faq request.

And to the op yes, this is much better tan clustered shots because of the posibility to get a crit and blow a critter on one hit to pieces with 4 hits that do x3 critical


The most annoying thing about these threads is that I wanted to make a guy who uses pummeling style to round house kick people, unfortunately people think it's punch only. This makes me sad.

Grand Lodge

K177Y C47 wrote:
Some Other Guy wrote:
The short description says "Pool all unarmed strikes into a single powerful blow". The long description is just poorly worded.
The problem is that the short description means nothing. Heck, a lot of times the short description isn't even accurate (as the case is for feats like Wind/Lightning Stance where the short description makes it out that you have full on concealment, where if you read the long one, you only gain concealment FROM RANGED ATTACKS

It is clearly intended for use with unarmed strikes. I understand that "punch" isn't an in game mechanic that can be rules lawyered, but anyone using the feat otherwise is taking advantage of poor editing.

Scarab Sages

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Undone wrote:
The most annoying thing about these threads is that I wanted to make a guy who uses pummeling style to round house kick people, unfortunately people think it's punch only. This makes me sad.

It's unarmed strike only. You can use pummeling style with punches, elbows, kicks, head butts, knees, shoulder checks, or pelvic thrusts.


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Imbicatus wrote:
... or pelvic thrusts.

This deserves its own character concept.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
... or pelvic thrusts.
This deserves its own character concept.

This makes me think of tucker for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5wfusuQKcs


Imbicatus wrote:
Undone wrote:
The most annoying thing about these threads is that I wanted to make a guy who uses pummeling style to round house kick people, unfortunately people think it's punch only. This makes me sad.
It's unarmed strike only. You can use pummeling style with punches, elbows, kicks, head butts, knees, shoulder checks, or pelvic thrusts.

I think the joke was that people are getting fixated on the word PUNCH, which would then invalidate any other form of unarmed striking... like Pelvic Thrusts xD


Yes it obvioous that it should apply only to unarmed strike (and maybe some other stuff), but the OP already clarified that.

So to answer the OP:
Yes if Zen archer could take pummeling strike it would be better than clustered shots.


Well since this was labeled as a "if it worked " thing and not "can it work"
Pummel is way better.

The reqs are "bab 6, or FOB or brawlers fury " right?
and I totally would love this on my crossbow guy if the GM didn't care about applying it to others. It would be way way better than vital strike for my sniper.
Honestly other than gunslinger/archetypes of it, this would be the only real way to make a one shot sniper guy....

Though on the whole "unarmed or not" there are other styles that are based off unarmed that apply to many more things. So I don't really mind any thing i guess.


K177Y C47 wrote:

So, I know it is debated as to whether or not you can use Pummeling Style with Weapons, but for the sake of arguement lets say you can...

This creates an interesting situation for the Zen Archer. Would it benefit him more to take clustered shot or pummeling style...

Against a single target pummelling style is strictly better. But it can only affect a single target. Whereas it's not an unreasonable reading to use 2+ shots with clustered shots on one target and chuck the rest elsewhere (if you have more than two, obviously).

Honestly, I think the only archery flurry that should be possible should look more like this guy's:
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004118

Silver Crusade

At level 11 a hasted Zen Archer pretty much puts down anything it hits utilizing this feat in one round including the BBEG.

I have GM'd one in back-to-back scenarios and he could probably one shot both games. High AC, high saves, and now one crit on 7 x (hasted) attacks x3 damage each = over powered.

Just thought I'd share that.


Well if you cant do it weapons you cant do it with your hands full either.

Also a pickax works as a punch as well. The war pickax is used to punch thru armor.

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