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I'm going to roleplay my level 1 character as someone who thinks he is level 20/used to be level 20 before becoming an out of shape drunk in need of a montage, and there is nothing you can do to stop me!
Good, your 20th level nemesis shows up and burns everything you ever loved to the ground.
And then says mean things about you.
I am actually curious, lets say you have your hypothetical level 1 character and level 20 character in the party. Can you describe an encounter you would give them that would challenge them both without just murdering the level 1 character?
Me as well.
Also it would have to be more then one encounter to keep the game continually interesting. Then fitting those challenges inside a coherent campaign.
Can it be done? Probably by someone. It certainly is not the norm and it would be hard as hell on the GM.
I'm going to roleplay my level 1 character as someone who thinks he is level 20/used to be level 20 before becoming an out of shape drunk in need of a montage, and there is nothing you can do to stop me!Good, your 20th level nemesis shows up and burns everything you ever loved to the ground.
And then says mean things about you.
Ooh ooh! Do they wave their private parts at his Aunties?
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I'm going to roleplay my level 1 character as someone who thinks he is level 20/used to be level 20 before becoming an out of shape drunk in need of a montage, and there is nothing you can do to stop me!Good, your 20th level nemesis shows up and burns everything you ever loved to the ground.
And then says mean things about you.
Is that how the Dragonlance series started? It's been so long, I don't remember.
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I'm going to roleplay my level 1 character as someone who thinks he is level 20/used to be level 20 before becoming an out of shape drunk in need of a montage, and there is nothing you can do to stop me!Good, your 20th level nemesis shows up and burns everything you ever loved to the ground.
And then says mean things about you.
Cool, now I have a reason to pull out my old sword, The Dragon-rending Demon Slayer of the Heavens (now a masterwork item because the magic leaked out from non-use), put down the alcohol, and join up with the party to reclaim my rightful place in the world! There will be montages.
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Ooh ooh! Do they wave their private parts at his Aunties?Worse. Shows them their nephews porn collection.
*PC immediately starts listening to "Eye of the Tiger"*
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So to satisfy your curiosity I would have to give you multiple encounters? Thou does asks too much, but suffice it to say that it is achievable and not that complicate for true game masters - a term often used but rarely lived up too.I am actually curious, lets say you have your hypothetical level 1 character and level 20 character in the party. Can you describe an encounter you would give them that would challenge them both without just murdering the level 1 character?Me as well.
Also it would have to be more then one encounter to keep the game continually interesting. Then fitting those challenges inside a coherent campaign.
Can it be done? Probably by someone. It certainly is not the norm and it would be hard as hell on the GM.
Oh SNAP!
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*PC immediately starts listening to "Eye of the Tiger"*Ooh ooh! Do they wave their private parts at his Aunties?Worse. Shows them their nephews porn collection.
Training Montage NSFW?
Driver I did ask you how this is supposed to work in a real game. Now sometimes we miss post while reading. If you don't have an answer just say so.
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Oh SNAP!So to satisfy your curiosity I would have to give you multiple encounters? Thou does asks too much, but suffice it to say that it is achievable and not that complicate for true game masters - a term often used but rarely lived up too.I am actually curious, lets say you have your hypothetical level 1 character and level 20 character in the party. Can you describe an encounter you would give them that would challenge them both without just murdering the level 1 character?Me as well.
Also it would have to be more then one encounter to keep the game continually interesting. Then fitting those challenges inside a coherent campaign.
Can it be done? Probably by someone. It certainly is not the norm and it would be hard as hell on the GM.
I'd imagine it would include the god PC holding off some sort of world eating eldritch abomination in the sky while the level 1s have to look around a pit of 1/4 CR creatures to find the artifact tier item needed to kill the real bad guy for realz but got conveniently disarmed from the god PC and thrown into the pit during an unpreventable cutscene before the figth started... So have a real enemy for the real PC and a bunch of babies for the baby PCs to fight? Sounds horrible to me, but then I'm hardly a Game MASTER.
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I am actually curious, lets say you have your hypothetical level 1 character and level 20 character in the party. Can you describe an encounter you would give them that would challenge them both without just murdering the level 1 character?Me as well.
Also it would have to be more then one encounter to keep the game continually interesting. Then fitting those challenges inside a coherent campaign.
Can it be done? Probably by someone. It certainly is not the norm and it would be hard as hell on the GM.
If someone in your group wanted to be the BMX bandit you could pull it off. Of course no one wants to be the BMX bandit.
I'd imagine it would include the god PC holding off some sort of world eating eldritch abomination in the sky while the level 1s have to look around a pit of 1/4 CR creatures to find the artifact tier item needed to kill the real bad guy for realz but got conveniently disarmed from the god PC and thrown into the pit during an unpreventable cutscene before the figth started... So have a real enemy for the real PC and a bunch of babies for the baby PCs to fight? Sounds horrible to me, but then I'm hardly a Game MASTER.Oh SNAP!So to satisfy your curiosity I would have to give you multiple encounters? Thou does asks too much, but suffice it to say that it is achievable and not that complicate for true game masters - a term often used but rarely lived up too.I am actually curious, lets say you have your hypothetical level 1 character and level 20 character in the party. Can you describe an encounter you would give them that would challenge them both without just murdering the level 1 character?Me as well.
Also it would have to be more then one encounter to keep the game continually interesting. Then fitting those challenges inside a coherent campaign.
Can it be done? Probably by someone. It certainly is not the norm and it would be hard as hell on the GM.
That sounds like the railroading and GM Fiat I mentioned before. I am about 99% sure you are right though. :)
I'd like to add that I've been in a game with a Level 1 character (myself) and a level 20 character.
It was not fun, and the GM had to railroad harder than the Wild West. Of the group of 5 players that had expressed initial interest in the campaign, within one session three had left, and by the end of the second session, I had left. The last guy had a look of disappointment that matched my own throughout most of the session that night.
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Training Montage NSFW?*PC immediately starts listening to "Eye of the Tiger"*Ooh ooh! Do they wave their private parts at his Aunties?Worse. Shows them their nephews porn collection.
That in addition to occasionally pushing it to the limit.
I'd imagine it would include the god PC holding off some sort of world eating eldritch abomination in the sky while the level 1s have to look around a pit of 1/4 CR creatures to find the artifact tier item needed to kill the real bad guy for realz but got conveniently disarmed from the god PC and thrown into the pit during an unpreventable cutscene before the figth started... So have a real enemy for the real PC and a bunch of babies for the baby PCs to fight? Sounds horrible to me, but then I'm hardly a Game MASTER.Oh SNAP!So to satisfy your curiosity I would have to give you multiple encounters? Thou does asks too much, but suffice it to say that it is achievable and not that complicate for true game masters - a term often used but rarely lived up too.I am actually curious, lets say you have your hypothetical level 1 character and level 20 character in the party. Can you describe an encounter you would give them that would challenge them both without just murdering the level 1 character?Me as well.
Also it would have to be more then one encounter to keep the game continually interesting. Then fitting those challenges inside a coherent campaign.
Can it be done? Probably by someone. It certainly is not the norm and it would be hard as hell on the GM.
I'll find those games. I'll whip their butt, too. Those games won't know which way they're going... take drastic steps, kick it to the curb. Don't mess wit' me. I'm the Game Master. I've mastered the game. I wish I had a game right here, right now, I'd game all over it...
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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Sad thing is, the jokes are not even funny. Poor GMs and poor comedians.
Maybe the next topic should be how to tell a joke.
I'd say your MASTER scenarios fill the "joke gap" quite well.
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1) High level guy has to go and save the town from a dragon. Fight ensues and it is a battle tooth and nail between the high level guy and the dragon. However, the fight itself has a lot of indirect consequences to the people in the town. Burning and collapsing building. It requires a lot of low level reflex saving throws for the low level people in the town to avoid the indirect damage.
2)Similar event, but only this time the high level guy is fighting an army trying to enter the city. He has to stay on guard or things can go wrong real quick. Meanwhile, there is an artifact scroll/weapon hidden in the city that need to be tracked down by lower level guys and brought to high level guy to end the battle once and for all. If high level guy does not do his job, the city crumbles before low level guys get the artifact. If low level guys don't do their job by time y, high level guy is overwhelmed.
3) High level guy and low level guy need to influence the king. The king is the race of the low level guy and so is his daughter. The king can be brought to the aid of the party by direct diplomacy or through the low level guy romancing/impressing the daughter. Both do their best over the upcoming days to get thier diplomacy on.
I could go on because this kind of topic (how to GM a diverse party) is far more interesting than the typical "how do you nerf the powerful guy" thread.
1) Frightful Presence makes everyone run in terror, low level characters are out of the battle.
2) High-level guy can't stop the army from going around him, unless the only way in is 5ft wide.
3.) High-level guy would auto-succeed any Diplomacy checks if he's invested, otherwise the level of the characters is irrelevant as this is Magical Tea Party and involves a lot of talking.
But I do agree this should be shunted to a different thread. Would you like to start one?
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1) High level guy has to go and save the town from a dragon. Fight ensues and it is a battle tooth and nail between the high level guy and the dragon. However, the fight itself has a lot of indirect consequences to the people in the town. Burning and collapsing building. It requires a lot of low level reflex saving throws for the low level people in the town to avoid the indirect damage.
The townsfolk are contributing to the defeat of the dragon how?
2)Similar event, but only this time the high level guy is fighting an army trying to enter the city. He has to stay on guard or things can go wrong real quick. Meanwhile, there is an artifact scroll/weapon hidden in the city that need to be tracked down by lower level guys and brought to high level guy to end the battle once and for all. If high level guy does not do his job, the city crumbles before low level guys get the artifact. If low level guys don't do their job by time y, high level guy is overwhelmed.
The players of the low level characters are doing what while you roll an army worth of attacks against the high level guy? The high level guy is doing what while you manage a party of low level characters sewer hunting?
3) High level guy and low level guy need to influence the king. The king is the race of the low level guy and so is his daughter. The king can be brought to the aid of the party by direct diplomacy or through the low level guy romancing/impressing the daughter. Both do their best over the upcoming days to get thier diplomacy on.
High level guy: Diplomacy, eh? OK, I roll a 47.
Low level guy: Diplomacy, eh? OK, I roll a 12. What, I get a +50 bonus for being the right race? Awesome, I so rocked her world.I could go on because this kind of topic (how to GM a diverse party) is far more interesting than the typical "how do you nerf the powerful guy" thread.
Sure, show us how it's really done the right way.
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Fightful presence has a range
The right high level guy with city walls and the right spells and maybe the help of the town army can stop the army from going around him
Auto succeed not going to happen in the particular encounter. Oh yes, you are imagining a skill focused maxed skilled whatever else diplomacy guy. Lol
But I do see that you are unwilling to learn and only interested in making ridiculous comments.
Anything that would be collateral damage to the city has a shorter range than Frightful Presence does.
Now you are changing your example, adding in the town's army. How's he being overwhelmed if the low level characters fail, with an army at his back?
No, I'm imagining normal high level characters, hence the 'otherwise' qualifier.
I'm willing to learn, but you're not teaching me anything. Would you like to take this to its own thread and continue trying?
1) High level guy has to go and save the town from a dragon. Fight ensues and it is a battle tooth and nail between the high level guy and the dragon. However, the fight itself has a lot of indirect consequences to the people in the town. Burning and collapsing building. It requires a lot of low level reflex saving throws for the low level people in the town to avoid the indirect damage.
2)Similar event, but only this time the high level guy is fighting an army trying to enter the city. He has to stay on guard or things can go wrong real quick. Meanwhile, there is an artifact scroll/weapon hidden in the city that need to be tracked down by lower level guys and brought to high level guy to end the battle once and for all. If high level guy does not do his job, the city crumbles before low level guys get the artifact. If low level guys don't do their job by time y, high level guy is overwhelmed.
3) High level guy and low level guy need to influence the king. The king is the race of the low level guy and so is his daughter. The king can be brought to the aid of the party by direct diplomacy or through the low level guy romancing/impressing the daughter. Both do their best over the upcoming days to get thier diplomacy on.
I could go on because this kind of topic (how to GM a diverse party) is far more interesting than the typical "how do you nerf the powerful guy" thread.
1. So basically the low level guys run away while the high level guy gets to fight? What if the low level guys want to fight. Remember characters don't know what levels are. This basically amounts to "players playing along", which I mentioned before.
2. Splitting the party which I also mentioned earlier, and if the army is made of low level people the high level guy still can stop them unless he is a caster since he has no abilities to take out all of them at once or track all of them. If there are 20(not really an army) or less the town guard can handle it.
3. Basically you are making up a rule to make the low level guys diplomacy work. Otherwise even with circumstantial modifiers it won't be on par with the diplomacy modifier of the higher level character, so like I said GM Fiat.
Basically your idea does not work in a game without the players, playing along or you using GM Fiat. That is fine if that is what you like, but it also proves our point, that it does not work naturally.
Fightful presence has a range
The right high level guy with city walls and the right spells and maybe the help of the town army can stop the army from going around him
Auto succeed not going to happen in the particular encounter. Oh yes, you are imagining a skill focused maxed skilled whatever else diplomacy guy. Lol
But I do see that you are unwilling to learn and only interested in making ridiculous comments.
Damn it! Why did it take me so many posts to realize I was getting trolled? I'm out! Have a nice thread guys.
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Fightful presence has a range
The right high level guy with city walls and the right spells and maybe the help of the town army can stop the army from going around him
Auto succeed not going to happen in the particular encounter. Oh yes, you are imagining a skill focused maxed skilled whatever else diplomacy guy. Lol
But I do see that you are unwilling to learn and only interested in making ridiculous comments.
*sigh* I fear I will never be the master you are, I suppose I should just slink off to the corner and cry. Thanks for using snide snark to prove that you are the master.
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I see the error of my ways. Coming up with contrived excuses for commoners sweeping dung in the streets being pivotal to the defeat of an infernal invasion is the height of creativity. As opposed to pointlessness.
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As to Simon, the Diplomacy check against the daughter is not as hard as against the king. You don't have to contribute to killing the dragon to be excited by trying to survive the attack. You don't have to roll a whole army worth of attacks.
Wow. The lack of creativity is unbelievable. I see why every player being exactly the same power level is so needed in Pathfinder. It is not the players. Its the GMs
Your scenarios are too contrived to hold immersion for most people I have gamed for, and most people on these boards also. It being ok for you, does not make it ok across the board. It does not make the other people bad GM's. You just have a different idea of "what works".
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Someone tell Chris Lambertz that this was NOT my fault.
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So, reading this before the moderation comes through and muddles it, the intent I am getting from Driver 325 yards comments is that the high level character is basically Elminster or whatever and the other players live in their shadow and do little side missions while they take care of the "big stuff."
As I recall, that went over like a lead balloon when it was an NPC doing it. I cannot say that it goes over better when it is a PC or GMPC doing it to the other players.
This is less how to manage a diverse party and more how to manage two parties: Mr. 20th level and everyone else.
Curses! He left before I could give my opinion. Oh well, it's at least somewhat relevant still...
I was once in a game (Godlike with GM augments) where I deliberately built a character to have a massive damage output. My character was designed to hit anything ever and if he hit it it turned into a fine red mist. I threw most of everything I had at that one singular goal, my defense didn't suffer, but my utility sure did, but that's fine, it's the character I wanted to play.
Sound cool? WELL...
There was another player in the party who rapidly outdid me and the rest of the group in 90% of all possible areas, including damage, defense, and utility. He had built a character that was so powerful that he massively outclassed me in every area that I had built my character to be amazing in.
The GM didn't mind.
Because of him, and my hyper-focused build, I very quickly stopped being relevant to anything in the game except as the guy who could maybe annoy enemies in combat (instead of, ya know, killing them) as did most other people in the group when combat happened.
So, speaking as someone who was a "weak" party member in that group, it is NOT fun to be lower level or power level than another PC. (Blah blah blah different classes are good at different things and that's dandy.) So yeah, I totally think that the beefy PC the OP's talking about should either be nerfed (with a civil conversation explaining why it should happen) or the other party members should be buffed to his power level. Honestly, I'm really interested in seeing this character because it sounds ridonkulus.
So, one of my players has, through some combination of feats and traits and other things that I probably should have looked at more closely before I OK'd their character sheet, managed to basically make their character faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to blow through encounters in a single round. Their character has an ungodly initiative modifier and has a move speed of 60 ft. per round, along with more potential spells and spell-like abilities than any reasonable 3rd level character should have. At the same time, the other characters in the party are almost underpowered, even compared to a normal character, so anything that would challenge the first player would annihilate the others.
Does anyone have any idea how I could possibly turn his high initiative bonus, crazy movement speed, and seemingly unending list of spell-like abilities against him, without killing the rest of the party?
After reading this, at first I thought the GM was thinking about a monk, probably qinggong archetype... but nope, 3rd level is way, way too low for this.
So, I went on a search.
That netted me the medium (with covenants), draconic exemplar, and savant are the only valid ways to get spell-like abilities before 4th level.
Maaayyybe the True Professional?
(The arcane healer archetype, and saint gains spell-like abilities fairly early, but nowhere near enough by third level to qualify for the OP's "more potential spells and spell-like abilities than any reasonable 3rd level character should have" statement.)
Of those, I'm guessing it's the savant, though a misapplication of the draconic exemplar might be true as well.
That said, I'd like to see the build. Also, I could easily be missing something - I didn't look too deeply into any of the classes or links, only waht I saw in the linked search and a cursory read-through of the classes. There were others that granted spell-likes, but they all looked like level four or higher, or were prestige classes... meaning at least sixth level.
I don't understand what the argument is.
The argument was essentially Driver saying that there's nothing wrong with having a party with a PC that is massively bigger than the rest of the party combined in it. But the argument is over. For now...
So, one of my players has, through some combination of feats and traits and other things that I probably should have looked at more closely before I OK'd their character sheet, managed to basically make their character faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to blow through encounters in a single round. Their character has an ungodly initiative modifier and has a move speed of 60 ft. per round, along with more potential spells and spell-like abilities than any reasonable 3rd level character should have. At the same time, the other characters in the party are almost underpowered, even compared to a normal character, so anything that would challenge the first player would annihilate the others.
Does anyone have any idea how I could possibly turn his high initiative bonus, crazy movement speed, and seemingly unending list of spell-like abilities against him, without killing the rest of the party?
After reading this, at first I thought the GM was thinking about a monk, probably qinggong archetype... but nope, 3rd level is way, way too low for this.
So, I went on a search.
That netted me the medium (with covenants), draconic exemplar, and savant are the only valid ways to get spell-like abilities before 4th level.
Maaayyybe the True...
I was wondering if he's using the aasimar or tiefling racial spell-like abilities to qualify for prestige classes or feats at way-too-early a level.
I thought feat and skill ranks prevented most of them. The few that it didn't seemed not to give separate spell-likes, at least none I saw on the list... that said, it's certainly easily possible. As I said, I only went through a cursory examination.
If it is the savant or the draconic exemplar, I'm wondering how he has so many uses that he can keep going more than a single encounter.
Regardless of what else you do, having a lot of spell-likes at 3rd level is... well, it's really unusual, and I'm struggling to guess at what he's going through.
A detailed build would be ideal, but at this point, I'd just settle for race/class.
Unfortunately, the OP has only made something like three posts total (I was hoping to find another post in this thread I thought I was missing), each of them a new thread that he hasn't responded to, so I'm not too sure how soon he'll be back to look at this, or even if he will. I do hope we get some more details, however it feels more like he was asking for general ideas to handle out-of-control player(s) than delving into specific builds.
He seems to be running Crypt of the Everflame for relative newbies, and seems to be new himself.
Anyone who knows that module or set of modules might want to target advice - in lieu of feedback - around that idea. He may well be taking advice, as he had his players at level three quite some time ago (too hastily), so it looks like he's taking the advice somewhere.
Hopefully he'll post more, though.
2nd module in that adventure has a bunch of skill-type challenges and social maneuvering. That could challenge the group a bit more evenly than combat encounters. The last section also has a long string of encounters where if the players nova they will be sad.
The final module is a bit more traditional dungeon crawl but has some very difficult traps and the last two encounters are very tough if DM'd smartly. Basically, if the OP can get the lower guys powered up or audit/correct the high powered guy in the progress of the 2nd module then he should be ok.
I ran that series and then followed it up with "the gift " Kaiden series from Rite publishing. Then I ran the Ruby Pheonix tournament while they were still in Kaiden, and the Academy of secrets when they got back to the ISR (I made Kaiden be west if Korvosa via ship).
Just some ideas of neat modules that play well together and I think are pretty good for newer players and DM's.
Everything about that sounds like someone either misunderstanding the rules, using unbalanced 3rd party content, cheating, or any combination of the three if 3rd level is indeed the level of the character.
Unbalanced first party content, you mean?
GM fiat is not making different challenges for different characters. That is good GMing. GM fiat is creating dumb stuff out of thin blue air. It is amazing to me that you guys can only envision a world where everybody is one par with one another. How unimaginative.
I am done talking to you guys. I once received good advice. Don't argue with a crazy person and don't argue with someone bent on holding on to false beliefs. After all, the two are one in the same.
If you want to believe that the only way to GM is to GM a party that is exactly the same power level from top to bottom (don't even know how you achieve that) then you go right ahead and believe that.
I am out.
Good GM's don't make up contrived situations that don't pass the common sense test. If you don't come back you won't be missed.
Well let me leave with a comment that should go without moderation. Please please please stop with all of the complaining and belly aching about other people's characters. GMs learn to be better GMs. Player utilize the guides and builds that flood the internet to help you make the type of character you want to play.
If the how do I nerf this, eratta that, beat up on the powerfule character thread just go down by 1 per week as a result of my comments then I will consider my comments a job well done.
I hope the idea of self accountability and GM mastery become the main topics of this site and that the boo hoo threads diminish. Hey, a man can dream.
Better is subjective. Obviously what you consider to be ok, most of us do not. And your last sentence was still condescending so you likely failed at avoiding moderation.
Good GM's don't make up contrived situations that don't pass the common sense test. If you don't come back you won't be missed.GM fiat is not making different challenges for different characters. That is good GMing. GM fiat is creating dumb stuff out of thin blue air. It is amazing to me that you guys can only envision a world where everybody is one par with one another. How unimaginative.
I am done talking to you guys. I once received good advice. Don't argue with a crazy person and don't argue with someone bent on holding on to false beliefs. After all, the two are one in the same.
If you want to believe that the only way to GM is to GM a party that is exactly the same power level from top to bottom (don't even know how you achieve that) then you go right ahead and believe that.
I am out.
Actually good GMs tailor scenarios and campaigns, so there is a challenge for everyone - Like a multiple skill challenge for the "skill-horse" rogue, who needs to break into a wellguarded mansion in the dead of night.
1) the dragon-breath sets the town on fire and the close-built wooden houses and the gusts of wind from the dragons wings, makes the fire spread like wild, making multiple oppurtunites for the low level PCs to be heroes too.
Have you never had a group of PCs run a scenario under a bigger threat, that they could not influence? Like under the shadow of an erupting volcano? Or behind the lines of an invading army?
The highlevel warrior's battle could be 1 battle rounds every 5-10 minutes, making the battle last for a good while, like the legendary battles of the myths, where a champion would battle some beast for several hours or even days, before the mighty beast succumbs to its wounds.
I don't think I've ever heard of a legendary battle or a song worthy of the most renowned bards, where the beast was slain in less than 10 seconds. - When Thor shatters the giant army's champion with a single throw, it's more of a comical situation than an epic battle of the ages.
2) A highlevel warrior type defends the narrow mountain pass from marauding orcs, which is the only northern entrance to a small village community in the valley. On the other side of the mountains, there are open plains to a small unsuspecting kingdom. Even a highlevel warrior can't keep 20.000 marauding orcs with burning arrows and ranged siege weapons at bay forever (Think "300!").
The group of smaller PCs tries to locate the town alchymist, who is lost in a nearby cave, to find the stash of explosives, that will seal the mountain pass untill spring comes to melt the snow.
3) The king and his family is wellknown for their dislike of elves, who broke an alliance 300 years ago.
Hence the almost impossible DC on the high level elf's Diplomacy, while the 3rd level human could pass a much lower DC by influencing the kings attractive young warden, who would then convince the king to show leniency.
Maybe the highlevel elf would face a multiple skillchallenge - a K.history check to realize that it was in fact the Kingdom who broke the alliance with the elves, followed by a Linguistics check to find the ancient documents that supports the truth, before even being allowed an audience, and make his diplomacy check. Giving the 3rd level human time to woo the young warden (M/F).
I'd play with a GM who can think outside the box, on any given day...