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You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.Does this mean that a character without Step up can't move next to a caster and ready an action to attack to interrupt spellcasting if the caster 5-foot steps away?
Because if so, then I think step up is vital to melee martials who want to ready to disrupt spellcasting.
If you have not moved on your turn, and are adjacent to a caster (or not adjacent, I suppose this doesn't matter--the important part is that you haven't moved) then as part of your readied action you can take a 5' step. So if they 5' step away, and try to cast and your trigger is "attack them when the cast a spell". Then, only if you did not move on the turn you readied your action, you can 5' step up and take your readied action, even without this feat.
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Well yeah but the bard actually performs and gives everybody modifiers. People recognize that. It's hard to ignore with the bard.You'd like to think that, but it still happens. So those people will certainly miss the even subtler effect of Step Up.
Lots of folks dismiss the Bard until he is not at the table.
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If you have not moved on your turn, and are adjacent to a caster (or not adjacent, I suppose this doesn't matter--the important part is that you haven't moved) then as part of your readied action you can take a 5' step. So if they 5' step away, and try to cast and your trigger is "attack them when the cast a spell". Then, only if you did not move on the turn you readied your action, you can 5' step up and take your readied action, even without this feat.
Why would someone use their standard action when standing next to an enemy caster to Ready: (attack them when they cast a spell)?
Maybe they're invisible, you know where they are, and casting will break invisibility? In that case, you're right that Step Up is just as good as a Ready + 5' step. Pretty sure that's the only situation this applies to though.Waiting around to see what they'll do instead of just smashing their face doesn't seem like a very good plan.
Why would someone use their standard action when standing next to an enemy caster to Ready: (attack them when they cast a spell)?
Maybe they're invisible, you know where they are, and casting will break invisibility? In that case, you're right that Step Up is just as good as a Ready + 5' step. Pretty sure that's the only situation this applies to though.Waiting around to see what they'll do instead of just smashing their face doesn't seem like a very good plan.
You know a caster has to make a concentration check when they take damage? If you attack them on your own turn, there is no chance of causing them to waste their turn and their prepared spell. If you ready to attack them when they cast a spell, and you are able to hit them, they have to make a (typically VERY difficult) concentration check, or they lose both the spell slot and their action.
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Trying to talk them out of fighting.
Not sure if your buddy made the save vs Charm/Suggestion.
You made your Sense BS check.
You yourself are Charmed.
Anyway, for me, it wasn't even that I got the intangible benefit of preventing them from 5ft Stepping or forcing Casting Defensive. I just noticed a lack of chances to use it. Enemies would Acrobatics around, or step only when it would either place me in a disadvantagious position to follow or when I couldn't 5ft into their square.
I've sometimes seen a similar thing with my Reach Cleric and Combat Reflexes. Sometimes, some DMs I get to use it, sometimes I get to have a limited form of mundane crowd control, and sometimes it seems like every enemy knows to either avoid coming close to possibly provoke or use only ranged and avoid combat like they know I have it before combat starts.
Not complaining, just making an observation, which may be false.
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You know a caster has to make a concentration check when they take damage? If you attack them on your own turn, there is no chance of causing them to waste their turn and their prepared spell. If you ready to attack them when they cast a spell, and you are able to hit them, they have to make a (typically VERY difficult) concentration check, or they lose both the spell slot and their action.
Yes, there is a difficult concentration check for being damaged while casting. That's definitely a tactical move and it would be pretty decent at low levels. Once your melee character reaches BAB +6, a ready action in that circumstance will cause you to lose the advantage of the iterative attack and a potential AOO with Step Up.
Trying to talk them out of fighting.
Not sure if your buddy made the save vs Charm/Suggestion.
You made your Sense BS check.
You yourself are Charmed.
Those are some really decent examples.
"Trying to talk them out of fighting" should probably happen more often in games I play in...
I don't think it works with this example though. Ready is pretty clearly something you do during combat and not something you can do preemptively, before the fighting starts.
Anyway, for me, it wasn't even that I got the intangible benefit of preventing them from 5ft Stepping or forcing Casting Defensive. I just noticed a lack of chances to use it. Enemies would Acrobatics around, or step only when it would either place me in a disadvantagious position to follow or when I couldn't 5ft into their square.
I've sometimes seen a similar thing with my Reach Cleric and Combat Reflexes. Sometimes, some DMs I get to use it, sometimes I get to have a limited form of mundane crowd control, and sometimes it seems like every enemy knows to either avoid coming close to possibly provoke or use only ranged and avoid combat like they know I have it before combat starts.
Not complaining, just making an observation, which may be false.
I think those are great observations. They're similar to my earlier comment. If the GM is intentionally/unintentionally avoiding your tactic, that is itself an advantage. If I figured it out, I do my best to use it to my/our advantage.
E.g.: If the bad guy hides behind cover to avoid the nasty archer in the party, the archer hasn't been 'neutralized.' The archer has succeeded in pinning the enemy in place while conserving ammunition.|
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Let's not forget Travel Domain. And the Arcanist's "teleport as a move action" exploit, whose name I can't recall right now.
Also, IIRC, quickened spells don't provoke. :/
(And all of that is assuming the caster isn't just flying around and/or invisible)
Martials do get another feat answer for all this teleporting too though: Teleport tactician.
There's a number of feats like this that are circumstantially really awesome, but usually don't come up. That's where these new ACG swapping combat feats on the fly abilities come in handy.
Let's not forget Travel Domain. And the Arcanist's "teleport as a move action" exploit, whose name I can't recall right now.
Also, IIRC, quickened spells don't provoke. :/
(And all of that is assuming the caster isn't just flying around and/or invisible)
Martials do get another feat answer for all this teleporting too though: Teleport tactician.
There's a number of feats like this that are circumstantially really awesome, but usually don't come up. That's where these new ACG swapping combat feats on the fly abilities come in handy.
It's locked behind three feats though, two of which require Fighter levels (6 and 10); that limits the usefulness of it somewhat unless you have class features that give you those two otherwise Fighter only feats early.
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I had step up in my arsenal as a fighter. I used it a lot. I ate up the aoo's of opponents to close with casters. Caster then five foot stepped back to cast. I stepped up and hit him with an AoO.
The first time you do it to a caster, they have no reason to be casting defensively, as the five foot step should've negated the need for it ( since I wasn't using reach weapons).
Assuming they survive the initial two hits from mr melee, they're not going to live through the next full attack.
Invisible gets nuked by blind fight one hell of a lot. Even better, since we play as a group, our casters often negated the benefit of invis flying caster and let the damage boys do their thing.
However, the effectiveness comes down to how your DM runs things. If they just assume that caster steps back the casts defensively no matter what, then it's far less effective.
Also, the more you use this, the more likely your enemies will hear about it and be prepared for it.
My fighter stopped a number of teleporting demons that way as well, since that's a spell like ability.
Good times.
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I had step up in my arsenal as a fighter. I used it a lot. I ate up the aoo's of opponents to close with casters. Caster then five foot stepped back to cast. I stepped up and hit him with an AoO.
The first time you do it to a caster, they have no reason to be casting defensively, as the five foot step should've negated the need for it ( since I wasn't using reach weapons).
Well, since you interrupt their actions, your 5ft step happens after their 5ft step and before they begin casting. So I would have no problem with the caster casting defensively, since he did not get away from what was threatening him. It may also may him choose an easier spell to try and cast.
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Well, since you interrupt their actions, your 5ft step happens after their 5ft step and before they begin casting. So I would have no problem with the caster casting defensively, since he did not get away from what was threatening him. It may also may him choose an easier spell to try and cast.I had step up in my arsenal as a fighter. I used it a lot. I ate up the aoo's of opponents to close with casters. Caster then five foot stepped back to cast. I stepped up and hit him with an AoO.
The first time you do it to a caster, they have no reason to be casting defensively, as the five foot step should've negated the need for it ( since I wasn't using reach weapons).
I concur.
"5 foot back and cast" is shorthand for two seperate actions. If the something interrupts in the middle, it's perfectly reasonable to alter the second action.
Of course, altering their tactics is still a good thing for the Step Up user, even if its only giving a (say) 10% failure chance to something that had a 0% failure chance before.
I had a Barbarian who was tweaked to 'get in the face' of casters :) fast movement anyway, a huge Jump (thanks to a ring), Boots of Speed and Step Up.
Oh, and scent for when the little toe-rag went invisible ....
I could chase casters all around the shop if I needed to :)
I had a Barbarian who was tweaked to 'get in the face' of casters :) fast movement anyway, a huge Jump (thanks to a ring), Boots of Speed and Step Up.
Oh, and scent for when the little toe-rag went invisible ....
I could chase casters all around the shop if I needed to :)
Unless you have an (Ex) means of Flight and way to get an (Ex) means of True Seeing... best of luck.
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Well, since you interrupt their actions, your 5ft step happens after their 5ft step and before they begin casting. So I would have no problem with the caster casting defensively, since he did not get away from what was threatening him. It may also may him choose an easier spell to try and cast.I had step up in my arsenal as a fighter. I used it a lot. I ate up the aoo's of opponents to close with casters. Caster then five foot stepped back to cast. I stepped up and hit him with an AoO.
The first time you do it to a caster, they have no reason to be casting defensively, as the five foot step should've negated the need for it ( since I wasn't using reach weapons).
Absolutely Toz. I'm not suggesting our method is the only reading of it. I'm merely saying that's how we played it, which is why the feat probably has such variability in its usefulness at varying tables.
My DM ( and myself when I'm DMing) try to run things with the intent of the moment and some cinematic feel. There's nothing better than watching the look of surprise on an opponents face when they step back thinking they're safe to cast, only to have the guy with the big axe move in and hit them. It only ever works the first time they do it, but that's usually enough. Open to interpretation, sure. We play for a fun time, not rules law hour though, so for us it works well.
On another note, step up and it's various iterations change the dynamic of a fight from reactionary to dictating the battle. It's a nice form of battlefield control in some situations, particularly for flank moves and shutting down corridors of movement.
Cheers
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Immediate actions don't usually provoke.There isn't anything in the text of immediate actions to suggest this.That's why I said in my opinion in the other sentence. Most immediate actions you use in the game do not provoke from my experience. Something that's considered a little more effort than a free action shouldn't cause an AoO.
That's the relevant text telling you the 10 foot will provoke, but you could still just 5 foot and not lose your 5 foot next round.1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.
This is why mobility is also a good feat for step up users. For fighters, this isn't really an issue as they have lots of feats. Other classes probably have to start considering it compared to other options though.
Cheers
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On another note, step up and it's various iterations change the dynamic of a fight from reactionary to dictating the battle. It's a nice form of battlefield control in some situations, particularly for flank moves and shutting down corridors of movement.
Cheers
Totally agree. It usually leads to a much short battle of course, as the poor saps can't get away and eat full attacks to the face. :)
Unless you have an (Ex) means of Flight and way to get an (Ex) means of True Seeing... best of luck.I had a Barbarian who was tweaked to 'get in the face' of casters :) fast movement anyway, a huge Jump (thanks to a ring), Boots of Speed and Step Up.
Oh, and scent for when the little toe-rag went invisible ....
I could chase casters all around the shop if I needed to :)
Well Fighters can now get (Ex) means of flight. Improved or Greater Blind-fight should handle invisibility(the build I'm thinking of has good perception too). Said Fighter could also be grabbing feats spontaneously (like the blind-fight feats instead of having them in permanent slots).
The flight method also gives them 40ft move speed.
I think that concludes that Brawler (New Base class), could benefit, because he observes his enemy, then reacts with Martial Flexibility