Goblin Squad Member
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I've been swamped by work commitments (still will be till at least late september) and only just found out about it. Most of the concept appeals to me, pathfinder game, open world, build a city, learn to be a wizard and then pick up some unarmed combat. However their website talks a lot about player vs player combat being the most important aspect of social interaction. However I'm not really a fan of that much prefer working together to make something over killing someone else.
So I'm just wondering since I haven't much free time and others are following this do those who know more about it think it'll offer much to draw in people who are more interested in say creating a mage tower in a city or working together with others to pull down a dragon than in challenging random people to a fight to the death?
- There is an extensive craft/mine/gather system in place. Fully mastering a craft will apparently take several years. Eventually virtually all items used in game will be crafted by players.
- The environs around the major settlements have monsters/NPC Bandits and so forth that will escalate if not suppressed.
- Long-term, there will be traditional MMO style dungeons implemented.
If you are interested check out Keepers Pass for an example of one of many player settlements that are encouraging both PvP and PvE play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmmm thanks for the replies, greater reward for greater risk is understandable just made a little cautious by their apparent view player combat is the best type of game play.
I'm not sure how much you have read about the PvP aspect of the game but there are some carefully designed systems that prevent ganking and the more "in your face" style PvP by heavily penalizing players who do this via a reputation system. As in the real world murder is not tolerated in PFO. Players with low reputation will be unable to interact with trainers and progress their characters.
There is also sanctioned PvP which involves either defending your settlement during its PvP window or attacking a settlement or one of its claimed hexes during their PvP window if your company (guild) so desire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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[...]So I'm just wondering since I haven't much free time and others are following this do those who know more about it think it'll offer much to draw in people who are more interested in say creating a mage tower in a city or working together with others to pull down a dragon than in challenging random people to a fight to the death?
Mage tower: yes, sort of. Player created settlements are a big thing, many game systems are centered around this. Players interested in raising structures, crafting and gathering will have many much more interesting things to do than in most MMOs.
Dragon: no, not really, depending on what you mean. The game may hopefully one day grow to encompass a great PvE experience but if you just look at the monster fighting experience in isolation from the rest of the game, it's not all that complex and interesting at the moment. However, fighting monsters and NPCs tie in with the settlement and crafting systems. If you go out and fight 20 ogres you may have done your settlement a favor as well as looted coin and materials needed for crafting and helped your gatherer friends access gathering nodes. While the experience in itself is cruder than in many other games but it could be considered more meaningful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmmm thanks for the replies, greater reward for greater risk is understandable just made a little cautious by their apparent view player combat is the best type of game play.
PvP is naturally going to be the most intensive part of programming and design, far more complicated than even the economy and crafting. Nearly everything about Pathfinder are things the players will do, but since Player-versus-player is possible it has to be a primary focus of the development effort.
But what the game actually is about will be something for the players to decide.
There will be many who focus on PvP, without doubt, and I doubt anyone will be able to completely avoid that. But what you make of it will be largely in your hands and the hands of those you choose as your local community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can't completely 100% ignore PvP because it will have second hand affects on what you're doing sometimes (shipment robbed, settlement at war, etc.), but you should be able to stay out of direct contact 98% of the time and have generally the kind of experiences you were talking about (just don't go strolling in the woods alone not knowing where you are very often :o)).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Liam,
If you stay away from the immediate vicinity of a tower, during the War of Towers, you will not face any PvP beyond the first couple of days when new players learn they can not train with the consequences of the loss of reputation.
Even in Alpha, where nothing counts long term, most players avoided PvP because the time consumption of re rolling a new character was not worth the PvP that gave no reward (no loot or other benefits).
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Goblin Squad Member
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not to be rude
As a general rule, anything that follows this opening is rude.
There is no point to harassing someone for correcting his mistakes. It is both unkind and unproductive.
Someone who is willing to change his stance when experience proves his preconceptions wrong is much more worthy of respect than someone who clings stubbornly to error despite all evidence.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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not to be rudeAs a general rule, anything that follows this opening is rude.
There is no point to harassing someone for correcting his mistakes. It is both unkind and unproductive.
Someone who is willing to change his stance when experience proves his preconceptions wrong is much more worthy of respect than someone who clings stubbornly to error despite all evidence.
Yes, well if he changed his mind cool, but it wasn't my impression.
That's why I am asking him. That's hardly harassing, I have no intention of repeating the same question over and over until I can "trap" him somehow, I just want to know if he changed his mind indeed or not.
Because if not, well I happen to think that his response to a guy who obviously doesn't want PvP, would be misleading.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Bluddwolf's calculation is generally right - for the short term. (I think that's part of his point). During the War of Towers (months 1-5?) there may not be much PvP besides the tower wars. Without settlement laws we won't see many Criminal flags, for example. Without a feud system we won't see company vs. company. The war system is quite a ways down the road, after settlements.
So if the only forms of PvP are tower wars and destroying our reps, most of us will stick with the tower wars.
I've been swamped by work commitments (still will be till at least late september) and only just found out about it. Most of the concept appeals to me, pathfinder game, open world, build a city, learn to be a wizard and then pick up some unarmed combat. However their website talks a lot about player vs player combat being the most important aspect of social interaction. However I'm not really a fan of that much prefer working together to make something over killing someone else.
So I'm just wondering since I haven't much free time and others are following this do those who know more about it think it'll offer much to draw in people who are more interested in say creating a mage tower in a city or working together with others to pull down a dragon than in challenging random people to a fight to the death?
Well in my experience the term pvp is used loosely. Also, it depends on what you are doing and how important it is compared to the current conflict. If you are moving valuable gems, there will be a time when you get ganked, likely. I wouldn't call that pvp though, you can think of it more as a trap. Does it make you want to quit or do you take a deep breath and continue?
I am not sure how I'll play, but I love non combat, spreadsheet type gaming. Pvp seems the same. As long as the crafts and gathering are not mere add ons, it will be good. People who pvp like to think its very complex and everything else is for spineless nubs.
Although you did key in on a potentially wack scenario where you can be attacked while doing high level pve. I hope the game takes some stance to prevent that or discourage it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Bluddwolf's calculation is generally right - for the short term. (I think that's part of his point). During the War of Towers (months 1-5?) there may not be much PvP besides the tower wars. Without settlement laws we won't see many Criminal flags, for example. Without a feud system we won't see company vs. company. The war system is quite a ways down the road, after settlements.
So if the only forms of PvP are tower wars and destroying our reps, most of us will stick with the tower wars.
This is pretty much spot on with what I was saying. I'm not sure I would consider 4 or 5 months included in "short term", mostly due to the usual drop off that MMOs experience after the 2nd and 3rd months after launch.
Also, seeing how important gathering, finding recipes and crafting is, I do not see the WoT being the panacea for pvpers that many seem to feel it is. WoT was always a band aid that needs to be replaced quicker than I previously thought. Now if WoT also included immediate rewards than maybe it could become a focus for more than I currently expect.
If controlling a tower also provided a cache of resources and some introductory and tier 1 recipes, then the allure of greater participation would be there. Otherwise, a settlement that does not encourage a grafter majority of its citizens to be out gathering, finding recipes and crafting, that is a settlement too far sighted for its own good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf: I think the more immediate reward from controlling towers might be the ability to train past level 3 skills. I think that settlements that neglectavoid tower wars will run into those limits pretty fast. (I'm not sure that that will cause settlement vs. settlement conflict, if there's generally enough towers, but it might by month 3 or 4).
edit to add: but I agree we need more PvP options sooner, rather than later. WoT might easily turn into a very low-conflict stalement in short order.
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Goblin Squad Member
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edit to add: but I agree we need more PvP options sooner, rather than later. WoT might easily turn into a very low-conflict stalement in short order.
If every settlement is satisfied with 6-8 towers and instead decides to expend its human resources on gathering, finding recipes and crafting, I can very much see the WoT not leading to much PvP at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is why I suggested linking WoT to the economy by preventing gathering in tower hexes held by other settlements.
This still would not encourage aggressive action in capturing another settlement's towers.
I would suggest making the "alpha 6 towers" a storage facility for a portion of all gathering (including mob drops) that occurs within that hex. That cache of resources / loot remains in the tower for 24 hours, and if it remains there through the PVP window period, it is transferred to the settlement bank.
If the tower falls into another company's control, they secure the resources / loot and can remove it. During the next 24 hours, the tower will accumulate a new amount of gathered goods. When the pVP window of the new controller comes up, it is again vulnerable.
This way the expenditure of time, to PVP or to Gather, Find, Craft will now both yield resources and control.
Mechanically speaking the towers in WoT will become the prototype of Outposts, and the PVP associated with WoT will become the prototype of raiding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know whether Bluddwolf has been proven wrong since there is so much still waiting in the wings. There is still a path to find and the hens are still sitting. Not to max metaphors...
I agree, I'm not saying that I have changed my mind about the game or the type of game it will be. I just don't see enough support systems for that just yet. I'm more concerned that those systems won't be in place before the first round of subscription drop off (ie the 3 or. 4 months after EE starts).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Liam, it's important that you get the right message: in PFO, you will get killed by other players. I think the key difference between PFO and other "Open World PvP" games is that you're less likely to be killed by everyone, all the time.
Actually in EVE I have a number of industrial alts that work in quite dangerous lowsec space for years and never been killed by anyone though people take potshots regularly. Sure you have to be aware of the dangers presented by other players. You just need to know how to avoid known gatecamps, scout, use a cloak etc etc
In a sense you are actually playing PvP but with the single minded intention of not getting caught rather than getting on a high by killing someone.
I see PFO being the same, your gathering toon may choose carefully where to gather and run from a potential fight but if they can do that successfully over and over again then they are succeeding at PvP.
Never killed, wow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Never killed, wow.It should be even easier in PFO as there are no choke points for gatecamps other than mountain passes and even then only upwards. You seem to be able to go down the mountain at any point, pass or not.
Fall damage isn't in yet I think. The uncontrolled slide that you see when someone goes down a mountainside leads to fall damage in other MMORPGs I've played. It would be very strange, I think, if they don't make it so that you die at the end of that slide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fall damage isn't in yet I think. The uncontrolled slide that you see when someone goes down a mountainside leads to fall damage in other MMORPGs I've played. It would be very strange, I think, if they don't make it so that you die at the end of that slide.Never killed, wow.It should be even easier in PFO as there are no choke points for gatecamps other than mountain passes and even then only upwards. You seem to be able to go down the mountain at any point, pass or not.
That would make sense, potentially making some of the bridges choke points for bandit camps as well.
That will work well providing there is some chance of avoiding SAD with the right stealth/speed/whatever depending on exactly how may player bandits you face of course. If they implement SAD as a totally invincible stop everyone tactic even if there are only two bandits it will not go well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everyone already said it but I will say it again, there will be activites for the "casual gamer" who wants to craft and such. Curretly the crafting is similar to Eve, where once you have the materials (gathered yourself, given by friends/company, or bought off the AH) you click the recipe to craft and sit back while it crafts. It isn't like WOW, or other theme parks where you sit there hammering a anvil (though it could change possibly, im and just saying currently in Alpha) but you set it to craft and then can run off to gather or whatnot. Once it is done, it goes to storage (currently goes to your inventory) and your all set.
Avoiding PVP will be difficult, but not impossible, as others have said. And remember the core of the game is sandbox, meaning we (the players) make the game. They give us the tools, and we build whatever we choose to. If you want to PVP, you can raid caravans and outposts, you want to craft, 99% (or something like that) of all gear and items used in PFO will be player crafted, and you want to PVE, there are esculations that need kept in check or they overrun hexes preventing harvesting and trade, and the Emerald Spire is in the works as well, as a more traditional dungeon event.
Moral of the story, you can (For the most part) do whatever you want, with what ever time you have to play. Find a role to fill and have fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I intend to completely avoid direct PvP, unless my Settlement is under a Siege.
Since I expect to be a harvester, crafter and trader, I think this will be a fun challenge. I may not even put up a fight when attacked during harvesting. When transporting goods becomes more important (Fast travel, Caravans) I hope SAD will be in.
All my actions outside of Thornkeep and the safety of my own settlement will be a matter of assessing risk vs reward. Is it the right time/place to go harvest? Can I risk this caravan without guards? (probably not). Will I go on a solo-harvesting tour with an expensive Tier 3 Harvesting kit on my person, hoping to find a gusher? (Sounds unwise, but maybe I can call in my Townbuddies to help out and share in the wealth). Or I will only take a Tier 3 kit with me when I have backup. Calculated risks!
I will get killed but I hope these to be calculated losses. I expect to never win a fight, not even a "fair" one, simply because I am not looking for a direct fight and I do not find enjoyment in it. I do find joy in the thrill of trying to avoid it though. Expect my Rep to be spotless, and my affiliations to be such that no Feuds will affect me (Wars will be harder). Expect me to run, and haggle about your SAD. PFO will be a spicy world, but I think people have choices here, also PvE folk. They have to, if GW ever wants to reach serious subscriber numbers. And besides, I totally consider my harvesting, crafting and trading to be PvP of the finest kind in PFO. :)
My favorite quote from Stephen: Town players
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Goblin Squad Member
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I forgot to say that I also suck at PvP, mostly because I panic and also because I can't deal with players hopping and whirling about. :)
So as soon as GW implements some sort of "/lie down" emote or "/all fours up" then I will use that a lot. Combine this "Way of the Leaf, pacifistic surrender mode" with what hopefully will be a huge rep-loss for killing me, and maybe the satisfaction of the kill will be so minute that I will be left alone next time. ;)
Though somehow I think that huge bag of Resources that I am carrying over my shoulder negates all this.... :O
So yeah, High Perception, Cloth-wearer and anything else that makes fleeing easier. Or run in a Harvesting group, but I am not sure how that will work: the harvesters probably have low Combatskills, and the Guards may get bored, or are even prone to get you into trouble because they are looking for a fight, rather then avoid them. Well, maybe some people who like to both fight and harvest are ok with making a Hybrid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your guards don't get bored if they are paid. You might even be able to convince them to act as your packanimals: 'I'll do the harvesting because of my skill. When we gat back to town I'll pay you X for guarding me and also buy all the resources you are carrying." Tis provides them motivation to get everything back to town with you. Make part of the agreement, of course, that they will not sell your resources to anyone but you, and agree on the price (below market value) before setting out.
Boo at the term casual gamer. I could reverse that to say its much easier to pick up a game and pvp opposed to delving into the economy.
Do we have or will we have mounts? Having a good mount will keep you alive when gathering, and if done right the rich people and great warriors will have them, but mr I like to gank gatherers won't. Of course, you gotta pay dues first but getting to the point where you can just hop on a horse and ride away is good. Also obviously pack animals for hardcore gathering.
I will ninja your thread for my own devices.
I just found this game as well. Which is weird, since I read Massively.com a bunch and never caught a story, even though there's a handful. Anyways, if someone has a minute, could you please endulge me?
I need some place to call home while waiting for camelot unchained, and I think Path Finder might be it.
1. The game says Sandbox, is there open world pvp? How is this handled, are there /pvp flags so people can maintain safety at all times?
2. How does ganking work? I read briefly about reputation? If I played as a player killer, would I have some place to call safe harbor if I wouldn't be allowed in towns? Can I move freely about the map?
3. Is there any type of experience similar to dark age of camelot's 8-man roaming, where your guild can group up and go looking for a fight, either vs equal numbers or a larger zerg of players?
4. Are bomb groups back? Is there pbaoe spells etc to lay down the pain on 3, 4 or 5x your group's size?
5. Is there pvp progression? I.e. rewards for pvp ranking up? Is crafting or PVE the only means of making your player more powerful?
P.S. Hi to Honor Guard if anyone is reading this, from Mez of Phoenix Throne/ Warhammer Online
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a ton of info on the Goblinworks blogs. The older blogs are earlier, and the game design has evolved. It will likely keep evolving, but recommend start at the earlier blogs and work your way toward the present.I will ninja your thread for my own devices.
I just found this game as well. Which is weird, since I read Massively.com a bunch and never caught a story, even though there's a handful. Anyways, if someone has a minute, could you please endulge me?
I need some place to call home while waiting for camelot unchained, and I think Path Finder might be it.
1. The game says Sandbox, is there open world pvp?Yep.
How is this handled, are there /pvp flags so people can maintain safety at all times?
Nope, no flags. You get a red icon by your name if you are low rep. Nowhere is truly safe, but there are safer areas and less safe areas.
2. How does ganking work? I read briefly about reputation? If I played as a player killer, would I have some place to call safe harbor if I wouldn't be allowed in towns? Can I move freely about the map?
I don't think we really know whether low rep players will be able to actually build a safe harbor low rep settlement or not. It would be challenging and quite a remarkable achievement. If you kill player characters without an acceptably server-measurable reason, then you will lose reputation (rep), which does have it's downsides.
3. Is there any type of experience similar to dark age of camelot's 8-man roaming, where your guild can group up and go looking for a fight, either vs equal numbers or a larger zerg of players?
I expect that will be rather common, but you may want to coordinate your focus on those you have 'feuded' or declared war upon.
4. Are bomb groups back? Is there pbaoe spells etc to lay down the pain on 3, 4 or 5x your group's size?
Wizards do have powerful AoE spells (mostly cone currently in alpha. decently ranged.), however be advised friendly fire rules are in effect: use AoE responsibly!
Perfecto, thanks Being for your response. I'm probably sold on this game now. I love playing the villain in MMO's. Someone has to do it, ammiright?
I'll check the blogs out later tonight. Now I just gotta find a bunch of like-minded elitist jerks who are willing to live in the red with me.
Future mercenary for hire
p.s. edit: you missed my previous edit! Can you answer #5 for kicks?
5. Is there pvp progression? I.e. rewards for pvp ranking up? Is crafting or PVE the only means of making your player more powerful?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Boo at the term casual gamer. I could reverse that to say its much easier to pick up a game and pvp opposed to delving into the economy.
Do we have or will we have mounts? Having a good mount will keep you alive when gathering, and if done right the rich people and great warriors will have them, but mr I like to gank gatherers won't. Of course, you gotta pay dues first but getting to the point where you can just hop on a horse and ride away is good. Also obviously pack animals for hardcore gathering.
Unless the gankers steal your horse, then they will have one as well. As a bandit I also intend to be rich enough to buy a horse, but I probably would still steal one anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. The game says Sandbox, is there open world pvp? How is this handled, are there /pvp flags so people can maintain safety at all times?
There is open world pvp. However, initiating PVP without a preexisting state of hostility will cause reputation loss, which will quickly cause major problems with ability to train. PVPing when you have hostility from wars, feuds, opposed faction membership, etc is never penalized.
2. How does ganking work? I read briefly about reputation? If I played as a player killer, would I have some place to call safe harbor if I wouldn't be allowed in towns? Can I move freely about the map?
Each settlement (player city) will have the ability to set a minimum reputation threshold for allowing characters to enter and train. The higher that threshold is, the better quality training the city will be able to offer. If you tank your reputation, you will only be able to live in no-threshold towns with very crappy training capabilities.
Training up to high levels and then tanking your rep will also not work; if the town you live in does not have "support" capabilities for your advanced training, you will lose access to those abilities.
Note that the rep penalty for ganking is proportional to the rep of your victim, so PKKs have much less of a rep problem than PKs do.
3. Is there any type of experience similar to dark age of camelot's 8-man roaming, where your guild can group up and go looking for a fight, either vs equal numbers or a larger zerg of players?
Each settlement will have a "vulnerability window" when you can attack their holdings without consequence. The more property the settlement claims, the longer their window will be each day. Your best bet if you want to go roaming for a fight is to figure out whose window is open and head that way.
4. Are bomb groups back? Is there pbaoe spells etc to lay down the pain on 3, 4 or 5x your group's size?
Combat tactics are still very young. There are AOE spells but they have friendly fire, so AOE's are considered a "sometimes food" rather than Hold Down 1. From what I've seen, PBAOE is more the province of melee classes than casters.
5. Is there pvp progression? I.e. rewards for pvp ranking up? Is crafting or PVE the only means of making your player more powerful?
Some kinds of training are gated with PVP kill requirements. We've been told that PVP-focused careers like assassin or bounty hunter are likely to fall under that model.
6. You should also be aware of alignment. Certain kinds of actions will cause your alignment to become more evil. Other kinds of actions will cause your alignment to become more chaotic. When choosing a settlement, you'll need to find a town with an alignment within one step of your own. If you're interested in high-reputation Lawful Evil play- PVP focused but not random PK- come check out the Empire of Xeilias.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...willing to live in the red with me.
Several groups appear to be trying just that niche. You might direct questions to Bluddwolf, as I expect he knows all of them to some degree, and might be able to direct you to the best fit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perfecto, thanks Being for your response. I'm probably sold on this game now. I love playing the villain in MMO's. Someone has to do it, ammiright?
I'll check the blogs out later tonight. Now I just gotta find a bunch of like-minded elitist jerks who are willing to live in the red with me.
Future mercenary for hire
p.s. edit: you missed my previous edit! Can you answer #5 for kicks?
5. Is there pvp progression? I.e. rewards for pvp ranking up? Is crafting or PVE the only means of making your player more powerful?
The UnNamed Company is always looking for prospective villains. We are the embodiment of banditry in PFO, so far. We will also have a large number of assassins and we are all mercenary in our choices.
Feel free to visit: The UnNamed Company
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Goblin Squad Member
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5. Is there pvp progression? I.e. rewards for pvp ranking up? Is crafting or PVE the only means of making your player more powerful?
Guurzak, our favorite erudite troll, gave a good response but I would expand on the PvP game for you.
I think it is less about the individual character you play and more about the associations that character works with that PvP will truly shine.
We are talking territorial control. Domination. And there are expressions within that for every play style from the crafter to the assassin to the diplomat/politician to the bandit leader and his band of merry men. As time passes you accrue experience, and if you can find a place that will train your character you will also gain in personal power. And with your power your community will gain even greater power.
But make the wrong move and it can all be pretty well lost. Potentially years of work... gone. PvP will have consequences far greater than mere game death. Greater consequences than permadeath if you have invested real years into your settlement and it is laid waste.
But... your character will retain all that training. Your skills may degrade without a settlement with training/support facilities, but those skills will be there in your character awaiting fulfillment once again. And your people can build anew on the frontiers, building on all that they have learned... and work toward a satisfying revenge.
This game might not look as polished as ESO, or even CU (which I also backed), but it may hold ultimately even greater promise for players like you.
