It used to be a flat "Charisma mod to all Saves all the time" Feat.
Just... Wow. Why would anyone with a non-negative Charisma modifier not take that?
It used to be a flat "Charisma mod to all Saves all the time" Feat.Just... Wow. Why would anyone with a non-negative Charisma modifier not take that?
Well, at least a 14 (I think there's a Feat that gives +1 to all saves already). On the plus side(?) it is/was only available to Cleric, Oracles, and Inquisitors and some niche archetypes since it requires/d a Domain or Mystery.
I can't remember if they changed that requirement or not.
It was DEFINITELY way too good, but I think it was kicked down a bit too far. I houseruled it to work for one save of the player's choice (which is still better than Iron Will and such, but not a gamebreaker).
It helps that I also allow (in some games, anyway) that Con to Will feat from 3.5, so it's only fair.
It used to be a flat "Charisma mod to all Saves all the time" Feat.Just... Wow. Why would anyone with a non-negative Charisma modifier not take that?
I remember it having some more restrictive prerequisites before too though. I believe it used to require divine casting. It was still an overly good feat, but mostly just for Oracles.
Edit: Looks like I got ninjaed. And now that it's been mentioned, I think Sundakan was right about the old prereq. But I was right about it mostly being only good for oracles.
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I'm not saying that they are. I'm just.. concerned.
So, without trying to bait some debate, could someone just either explain or point me to answers for stuff like:
1)- Arcanist versus Sorc. How does this guy not outclass the sorc?
Sorc is SAD (though Arcanist can trim out its need for CHA fairly easily) and has substantially more spells per day. Depending on your level of system mastery, Sorcerer can be much easier to play with better stamina. At the upper levels of system mastery, Arcanist is probably superior, but not a lot of people can actually wrong that performance out of it, or want to put in the effort to get there. Sorcerer also has some advantages in campaigna with limites downtime.
2)- Bloodrager versus Barbarian. The Bloodrager really seems to have a lot going for him compared to the Barbarian.
Barbarian still has some advantages in the realms of action economy and the strength of certain Rage powers. It'll almost always be the case in PF that spells > no spells, but the Bloodrager really isn't going to just replace the Barbarian, as there are distinct reasons still to play either over the other.
3)- Slayer versus Rogue. The rogue has a bit of skill oomph going on out of combat, so maybe that's enough, but the slayer really seems to gain a lot of offensive power while keeping a lot of the rogue kit.
Core Rogue has been distinctly underpowered both in and out of combat, and this is something that the design team has openly acknowledged. Unchained Rogue holds up much better when compared to the Slayer, and the Slayer and Ranger (a much better comparison) also stack up very well compared to each other.
I'm also having a hard time thematically with a warpriest and a paladin sort of stepping on each other. I mean, the cleric is already kind of martial to begin with, how is there so much design space? But those guys at least are mechanically distinct, right?
It's important to remember that Paladin's don't actually even need a deity, as they are directly empowered by the universal forces of good and righteousness. Warpriests actually have more thematic overlap with Inquisitors in that they are both specially trained servants of their deity, and have no specific code or alignment enforced on them beyond that required by their deity. Paladins, regardless of their deity, are always lawful good and always have a code. Warpriests, by comparison, are thugs empowered by whatever deity decided to use them as a blunt instrument, and really even a LG Warpriest is simply that alignment because it coincides with his natural tendencies, desires, and/or beliefs, not because he's literally infused with goodness and justice like a Paladin. Paladins, both mechanically and thematically, are quite distinct from Warpriests.
Edit
Whoops, just noticed that this is a bit of a necro and the OP probably had these questions answered long ago.
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One thing to remember is the ACG classes are hybrids, so there is quite a bit of variation. The Arcanist is powerful because Sorcerer and Wizard are both powerful classes. Bloodrager is a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, while Swashbucklers and Brawlers are weak cause the classes they're based on are weak. But I agree that the CRB classes are much worse in terms of balance, you have the Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Paladin, all horrendously OP, and then you have Fighters, Monks and Rogues, just weak as hell.
I think fighters have done pretty well recently in terms of options and tweaks.
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I think fighters have done pretty well recently in terms of options and tweaks.
They've certainly gotten some options for much needed upgrades, though unfortunately these all still hang on a weak and fundamentally flawed chassis and require a bit of splatbook diving. Even with boosts like those received in the Weaponmaster's Handbook though, they still don't have anything resembling the raw narrative power of classes like the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard, though there's already a few hundred threads discussing that.
To the thread's initial point (and somewhat to the point HeHateMe was making), some of the ACG classes are going to look very strong based on where you try to compare them, because there's a pretty extreme swing in the power and versatility of the CRB classes. Slayers seem very strong compared to Fighters and Rogues, who are very weak as presented in the CRB and require a good bit of splatbook diving or Unchaining to get up to par, but the Slayer actually is very well balanced against the CRB Ranger, who is also a high skill, full BAB, medium armor-wearing versatile warrior.
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One thing to remember is the ACG classes are hybrids, so there is quite a bit of variation. The Arcanist is powerful because Sorcerer and Wizard are both powerful classes. Bloodrager is a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, while Swashbucklers and Brawlers are weak cause the classes they're based on are weak. But I agree that the CRB classes are much worse in terms of balance, you have the Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Paladin, all horrendously OP, and then you have Fighters, Monks and Rogues, just weak as hell.
I just played my first Swashbuckler (flying blade) last week in the last module of ROTR. He was so overpowered I volunteered to quit playing him. Disrupting Counter with Combat Reflexes will kill any foe in melee...ask the bloody pile of dead Rune Giants.
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One thing to remember is the ACG classes are hybrids, so there is quite a bit of variation. The Arcanist is powerful because Sorcerer and Wizard are both powerful classes. Bloodrager is a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, while Swashbucklers and Brawlers are weak cause the classes they're based on are weak. But I agree that the CRB classes are much worse in terms of balance, you have the Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Paladin, all horrendously OP, and then you have Fighters, Monks and Rogues, just weak as hell.I just played my first Swashbuckler (flying blade) last week in the last module of ROTR. He was so overpowered I volunteered to quit playing him. Disrupting Counter with Combat Reflexes will kill any foe in melee...ask the bloody pile of dead Rune Giants.
I'd probably start by asking them why they were in melee range of a swashbuckler when they could have stood 20 feet away with their constant air walk ability and safely pummeled it into goo with their superior reach.
I'd probably start by asking them why they were in melee range of a swashbuckler when they could have stood 20 feet away with their constant air walk ability and safely pummeled it into goo with their superior reach.One thing to remember is the ACG classes are hybrids, so there is quite a bit of variation. The Arcanist is powerful because Sorcerer and Wizard are both powerful classes. Bloodrager is a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, while Swashbucklers and Brawlers are weak cause the classes they're based on are weak. But I agree that the CRB classes are much worse in terms of balance, you have the Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Paladin, all horrendously OP, and then you have Fighters, Monks and Rogues, just weak as hell.I just played my first Swashbuckler (flying blade) last week in the last module of ROTR. He was so overpowered I volunteered to quit playing him. Disrupting Counter with Combat Reflexes will kill any foe in melee...ask the bloody pile of dead Rune Giants.
Flying blades are a thrown build.
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Flying blades are a thrown build.I'd probably start by asking them why they were in melee range of a swashbuckler when they could have stood 20 feet away with their constant air walk ability and safely pummeled it into goo with their superior reach.One thing to remember is the ACG classes are hybrids, so there is quite a bit of variation. The Arcanist is powerful because Sorcerer and Wizard are both powerful classes. Bloodrager is a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, while Swashbucklers and Brawlers are weak cause the classes they're based on are weak. But I agree that the CRB classes are much worse in terms of balance, you have the Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Paladin, all horrendously OP, and then you have Fighters, Monks and Rogues, just weak as hell.I just played my first Swashbuckler (flying blade) last week in the last module of ROTR. He was so overpowered I volunteered to quit playing him. Disrupting Counter with Combat Reflexes will kill any foe in melee...ask the bloody pile of dead Rune Giants.
Disrupting Counter, which the poster was crediting with helping him demolish all those rune giants, is a melee ability. Even with Snap Shot / Improved Snap Shot (which would involve taking a couple dead feats), the rune giants would be able to swing away with their 20 foot reach and never worry about Disrupting Counter. Which doesn't even get into all the SLAs and other options rune giants have at their disposal that a Swashbuckler isn't equipped to deal with.
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They've certainly gotten some options for much needed upgrades, though unfortunately these all still hang on a weak and fundamentally flawed chassis and require a bit of splatbook diving. Even with boosts like those received in the Weaponmaster's Handbook though, they still don't have anything resembling the raw narrative power of classes like the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard, though there's already a few hundred threads discussing that.
Ultimate Intrigue apparently continues in this vein with a Feat that makes Bravery apply on all Mind-Effecting stuff, and another to share it with the party. These stack.
Fighter's accumulating some nice tricks.
To actually answer the original question: Druids, Wizards, Monks, and Rogues are in the corebook. The divide between high and low has not meaningfully gotten larger, nor has the absolute ceiling of power.
Wizard and Druid are still basically the most powerful characters in the game (Arcanist is now up there, but I don't think it surpasses them), and Core Rogue and Monk remain among the weakest.
Now, with Unchained Rogue and Monk (and various Monk Archetypes) and the Fighter enhancements that are coming these days, it's debatable that the 'floor' of Class power has gone up a bit (though it's likely still lower than corebook Paladin or Ranger) if you use those options, anyway. But the ceiling? That hasn't risen at all. Or not meaningfully anyway.
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They've certainly gotten some options for much needed upgrades, though unfortunately these all still hang on a weak and fundamentally flawed chassis and require a bit of splatbook diving. Even with boosts like those received in the Weaponmaster's Handbook though, they still don't have anything resembling the raw narrative power of classes like the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard, though there's already a few hundred threads discussing that.Ultimate Intrigue apparently continues in this vein with a Feat that makes Bravery apply on all Mind-Effecting stuff, and another to share it with the party. These stack.
Definitely nice to see the Fighter getting some strong 1pp support though. I suspect you're also correct in your theory that the floor of the game has probably risen a bit while the ceiling has remained largely unchanged.
They're never going to change the ceiling they established in the CRB. On a whole, I am glad they are making the fighter more versatile. I love the idea of a fighter granting the party bonuses. In some ways the fighter should be a combat multiplier for all. Since the ceiling is not going to change, I like any increase and versatility in options.
Eh, the ceiling goes up every time they print a new book and there's a particularly useful spell for wiz/sorc, cleric, or druid in it.
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They're never going to change the ceiling they established in the CRB. On a whole, I am glad they are making the fighter more versatile. I love the idea of a fighter granting the party bonuses. In some ways the fighter should be a combat multiplier for all. Since the ceiling is not going to change, I like any increase and versatility in options.Eh, the ceiling goes up every time they print a new book and there's a particularly useful spell for wiz/sorc, cleric, or druid in it.
Only if that spell is stronger than the strongest options that already existed, which I don't actually see happen very often. Most of the strongest spells of just about any level can still be found right in the CRB.
Basically until they develop a new 9th level caster that uses wiz/sorc or cleric lists, has new spell progression on odd levels instead of even, and has better class abilities than either heal on demand or divination/teleport subschool, you're pretty ok on not power creeping.
Only if that spell is stronger than the strongest options that already existed, which I don't actually see happen very often. Most of the strongest spells of just about any level can still be found right in the CRB.They're never going to change the ceiling they established in the CRB. On a whole, I am glad they are making the fighter more versatile. I love the idea of a fighter granting the party bonuses. In some ways the fighter should be a combat multiplier for all. Since the ceiling is not going to change, I like any increase and versatility in options.Eh, the ceiling goes up every time they print a new book and there's a particularly useful spell for wiz/sorc, cleric, or druid in it.
With the ability to leave slots open, versatility and specialization are their own particular type of power.
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With the ability to leave slots open, versatility and specialization are their own particular type of power.Only if that spell is stronger than the strongest options that already existed, which I don't actually see happen very often. Most of the strongest spells of just about any level can still be found right in the CRB.They're never going to change the ceiling they established in the CRB. On a whole, I am glad they are making the fighter more versatile. I love the idea of a fighter granting the party bonuses. In some ways the fighter should be a combat multiplier for all. Since the ceiling is not going to change, I like any increase and versatility in options.Eh, the ceiling goes up every time they print a new book and there's a particularly useful spell for wiz/sorc, cleric, or druid in it.
Right, and that's a big part of why the Wizard has always been pretty much the most powerful class in the game. But most new spells are either thematically more interesting but generally less powerful than existing options, or really just another way of doing something you could already kind of do. Sure you get the occasional snowball, but I don't think the Wizard is appreciably more powerful now than he was six years ago.
The Fighter on the other hand, has probably been given more entirely new and truly useful options in the last 6 months than in the entire span of PF prior, and really has seen a legitimate boost in overall character effectiveness.
I love Snowball.
Basically until they develop a new 9th level caster that uses wiz/sorc or cleric lists, has new spell progression on odd levels instead of even, and has better class abilities than either heal on demand or divination/teleport subschool, you're pretty ok on not power creeping.
Speaker for the Past Shaman with VMC Wizard, human FCB, and the Spirit Talker feat at level 6 to gain the Lore spirit, using retraining.