Pathfinder Unchained Potential Errors


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Under the Unchained Barbarian, the bonuses from Rage are untyped, whereas the original barbarian's rage bonuses were morale bonuses. Was this an intentional change to allow them to stack with everything, or was this an oversight? My money is on the former, as an increase to the accompanying ability score increases more than just attack/damage, and could thus be considered a "step down" in power from the original barbarian's rage, but I wanted to get other people's thoughts on the matter.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's definitely intentional. Pretty sure it was Mark who said something about this (in a Know Direction podcast, perhaps?).


Unchained Monk doesn't have Heal as a class skill.

Please tell me this travesty is a mistake.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Oh noes!!!!


A Shaman with the the Witch Variant Multiclass can't qualify for Extra Hex even if they want to use it for another Shaman hex.

This could be fixed by replacing "She never qualifies for the Extra Hex feat" with "She cannot qualify for the Extra Hex feat through the hexes granted at 7th, 15th, or 19th level".


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:

Unchained Monk doesn't have Heal as a class skill.

Please tell me this travesty is a mistake.

Unchained Monks have the exact same class skill list as standard CRB Monks. Neither one gets Heal as a class skill.


Lord Fyre wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

Variant Multiclassing, p. 88

I may be missing something, but I am not seeing how to handle spell progression when the secondary class is a spellcaster (and the primary class is not).
I don't see where the variant multiclassing rules intersect with spell progression at all. The VMC rules don't give you spellcasting; they can give you a spell-like ability or two, but they specifically cover how to handle such things. Can you give an example of what you're asking?

You're right.

The only one that is mushy is Magus
"Spellstrike: At 11th level, he gains the spellstrike class
feature, but he can use it only with spells that are on the
magus spell list, even though he can cast them using another
class’s spell slots."

So if I was to select Rogue as Primary and Sorcerer as Secondary with the VMC I wouldn't get access to a Sorcerer's Spell per Day/Spells Known/Spell List?

If so then I'll probably rarely use the VMC when building Prestige Class characters such as Arcane Tricksters. With the CB I can get 1st lvl Arcane Trickster by 9th lvl. With VMC (assuming you don't gain Spells per Day/Spells Known from a caster secondary) it would be at least 12th lvl for a Sorcerer Primary with Rouge Secondary plus the first 3 Feats will have to be used to get the basic combat related feats the Rouge starts off with.


Travis Hansel wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

Variant Multiclassing, p. 88

I may be missing something, but I am not seeing how to handle spell progression when the secondary class is a spellcaster (and the primary class is not).
I don't see where the variant multiclassing rules intersect with spell progression at all. The VMC rules don't give you spellcasting; they can give you a spell-like ability or two, but they specifically cover how to handle such things. Can you give an example of what you're asking?

You're right.

The only one that is mushy is Magus
"Spellstrike: At 11th level, he gains the spellstrike class
feature, but he can use it only with spells that are on the
magus spell list, even though he can cast them using another
class’s spell slots."

So if I was to select Rogue as Primary and Sorcerer as Secondary with the VMC I wouldn't get access to a Sorcerer's Spell per Day/Spells Known/Spell List?

If so then I'll probably rarely use the VMC when building Prestige Class characters such as Arcane Tricksters. With the CB I can get 1st lvl Arcane Trickster by 9th lvl. With VMC (assuming you don't gain Spells per Day/Spells Known from a caster secondary) it would be at least 12th lvl for a Sorcerer Primary with Rouge Secondary plus the first 3 Feats will have to be used to get the basic combat related feats the Rouge starts off with.

VMC does not grant spells nor spell slots nor spells known


Chess Pwn wrote:
Travis Hansel wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

Variant Multiclassing, p. 88

I may be missing something, but I am not seeing how to handle spell progression when the secondary class is a spellcaster (and the primary class is not).
I don't see where the variant multiclassing rules intersect with spell progression at all. The VMC rules don't give you spellcasting; they can give you a spell-like ability or two, but they specifically cover how to handle such things. Can you give an example of what you're asking?

You're right.

The only one that is mushy is Magus
"Spellstrike: At 11th level, he gains the spellstrike class
feature, but he can use it only with spells that are on the
magus spell list, even though he can cast them using another
class’s spell slots."

So if I was to select Rogue as Primary and Sorcerer as Secondary with the VMC I wouldn't get access to a Sorcerer's Spell per Day/Spells Known/Spell List?

If so then I'll probably rarely use the VMC when building Prestige Class characters such as Arcane Tricksters. With the CB I can get 1st lvl Arcane Trickster by 9th lvl. With VMC (assuming you don't gain Spells per Day/Spells Known from a caster secondary) it would be at least 12th lvl for a Sorcerer Primary with Rouge Secondary plus the first 3 Feats will have to be used to get the basic combat related feats the Rouge starts off with.

VMC does not grant spells nor spell slots nor spells known

Thanks for the conformation. Guess the only time I'll possibly consider using VMC either when I plan on not getting any prestige class lvls or when aiming for a prestige class that doesn't require MCing.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Travis, Arcane Trickster can actually benefit from VMC quite a bit, you just have to start as a caster and pick up Rogue, sprinkle some shenanigans.

For one, I should mention a feat from the Dirty Tactic's Handbook, Accomplished Sneak Attacker. Essentially, it lets you improve Sneak Attack by 1d6, but not greater than a Rogue of your character level. Combined with Variant Multiclassing, you can get into Arcane Trickster at level 8.

The most optimal would be a Wizard 3/Snakebite Striker 1 (Brawler Archetype, adds 1d6 Sneak Attack at level 1 with Full BAB). Variant Multiclass into Rogue and take Accomplished Sneak Attacker. At level 5, put your first level into Arcane Trickster. At level 7, you gain 1d6 Sneak Attack from Variant Multiclassing. Retrain out of Snakebite Striker Brawler into Wizard. Eventually, you can retrain out of Accomplished Sneak Attacker, but you will probably want it for when you start putting levels into Wizard after Arcane Trickster 10.

This creates a much more caster-focused Arcane Trickster than the Core Rulebook variant, but it is much stronger in my opinion.

Some players and DM see this as cheese and will frown upon retraining here, so you should be aware of that.


I'm not familiar with Dirty Tactic's Handbook. I'll have to look it up later.

Still not a big fan of using the VMC towards a Priestege that needs caster and melee traits for the facts that you're losing 5 feats and the remaining feats will mostly be used to get melee/combat related feats. Though I could possibly see making a bow/crossbow caster assuming staves/wands will not be easy to obtain.

Time for some experimentation.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dirty Tactics Handbook just came out. Has some other goodies in it. This build is pretty much a caster with Sneak Attack, rather than a traditional magical rogue Arcane Trickster.

Contributor

Can an unchained rogue select the deadly sneak, fast picks, lasting poison, master of disguise, snap shot, or quick trapsmith rogue talents?

All six of these talents are missing from the unchained rogue write-up and do not have effects that are superseded by other, updated rogue talents the way that honeyed words or hard to fool or convincing liar are.


New action Economy: Feint having attack subtype, and Improved Feint removes this, should it not have this subtype to start. Feint don't Provoke Aoo, or do they under the new action Economy? As it stand losing the sub type does nothing at all and so does improved feint.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
KainPen wrote:
New action Economy: Feint having attack subtype, and Improved Feint removes this, should it not have this subtype to start. Feint don't Provoke Aoo, or do they under the new action Economy? As it stand losing the sub type does nothing at all and so does improved feint.

Losing the attck subtype means you don't get –5 or –10 to your check for using it as a second or thid attack action per round.


ok I see what you are saying, I was not thinking of it as an attack, but as a skill check. because that what it is.

Manager - Dice Bag Games Ltd.

There is no mention if Favored Class and the human Skilled racial trait work with Consolidated Skills. Can this be clarified?

Grand Lodge

Morzadian wrote:

There are two different versions of Uncanny Dodge, the Barbarian loses his Dex bonus against invisible opponents but the Rogue does not.

Is this an error?

And if its not, it is very confusing to have the same ability (same name) but do different things.

A clarification would be most helpful, I will be using an Unchained Barbarian (as a cohort) in my current campaign, and ATM I am looking at house ruling it to match the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge.

I just noticed this too. Additionally, the unchained barbarian seems to not lose her Dex bonus to AC when immobilized, whereas the rogue, unchained rogue, and standard barbarian do. I think there was an error here, as well, as common sense suggests they would most definitely lose their Dex bonus to immobilization.

Grand Lodge

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Can an unchained rogue select the deadly sneak, fast picks, lasting poison, master of disguise, snap shot, or quick trapsmith rogue talents?

All six of these talents are missing from the unchained rogue write-up and do not have effects that are superseded by other, updated rogue talents the way that honeyed words or hard to fool or convincing liar are.

So just at a quick glance, I see that deadly sneak, lasting poison, and master of disguise are included in the list of rogue talents for the unchained rogue. Fast picks was removed and folded into quick disable. Quick trapsmith is included at the end as part of the list of unmodified rogue talents. Snap shot is the only talent that I can't find of the ones you named. I did my own search and can't find the following (though I welcome someone to show me if I'm mistaken):

Guileful polyglot
Ki pool
Offensive defense
Snap shot
Hard minded*
Master tricks*
Thoughtful reexamining*

*Advanced talent

Grand Lodge

I don't have the book on me now and only have the PRD to go by, so sorry for the lack of page number, but in the section detailing expanded uses for the Craft skill, it mentions you can use Craft (alchemy) or (blacksmithing) to create a gunslinger's kit. This is probably an error.

A gunslinger's kit is a collection of mundane items that are good for gunslinger characters starting out.

A gunsmith's kit, which is probably what was intended, is the set of tools used by firearm-wielders to repair and restore guns and craft ammo.

The latter was probably intended since no other class item-kits were listed in this section and because the former includes items unrelated to alchemy or blacksmithing, like trail rations. Plus other class-feature-specific items are listed here, like theives' tools.

Grand Lodge

Strife2002 wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Can an unchained rogue select the deadly sneak, fast picks, lasting poison, master of disguise, snap shot, or quick trapsmith rogue talents?

All six of these talents are missing from the unchained rogue write-up and do not have effects that are superseded by other, updated rogue talents the way that honeyed words or hard to fool or convincing liar are.

So just at a quick glance, I see that deadly sneak, lasting poison, and master of disguise are included in the list of rogue talents for the unchained rogue. Fast picks was removed and folded into quick disable. Quick trapsmith is included at the end as part of the list of unmodified rogue talents. Snap shot is the only talent that I can't find of the ones you named. I did my own search and can't find the following (though I welcome someone to show me if I'm mistaken):

Guileful polyglot
Ki pool
Offensive defense
Snap shot
Hard minded*
Master tricks*
Thoughtful reexamining*

*Advanced talent

Quick correction to this, maybe more to come. I see snap shot was simplified and renamed quick shot.

EDIT: sure enough I think thoughtful reexamining was removed to avoid redundancy with new certainty talent

EDIT 2: it's possible that offensive defense was removed as the new disoriented injury sort of re-creates the same scenario, where a rogue is harder to hit. They may have removed it for balance purposes since that injury lowers attack and with every sneak attack the rogues AC would increase effectively turning them into a tank.

Likewise, it's possible that ki pool was removed in order to differentiate between the ninja and the rogue. I know that some people would argue that the ninja still has the ability to choose rogue talents without the limitation of needing an additional class feature like a ki pool, but if you think about it the ninja still has to choose from the original rogue talents not the superior unchained ones so it actually balances out. I do think that the absence of master trick is noteworthy, however it's possible that pathfinder unchained was released before the errata that added that advanced talent to ultimate combat

Grand Lodge

One thing to add to my post above, since my ability to edit it will be over soon. Because the unchained rogue has access to the ninja trick talent, and as I mentioned before a GM could rule that the ninja trick that allows them to select a rogue talent can only choose from the list of standard rogue talents, an unchained rogue could therefore take the ninja trick talent, then take the rogue talent trick, and then select any of the missing basic rogue talents that I mentioned above. Specifically guileful polyglot, convincing lie ( both of which I feel shouldn't have been cut as they don't interfere at all with any of the rogues new abilities ), offensive defense, and ki pool ( which selecting would probably be kind of cheesy but that would be up to the GM ).

As I mentioned earlier, master trick being omitted might be a mistake if the ultimate combat errata released after pathfinder unchained. Hard minded may have also been the result of that, as originally it shared the same name as a core rulebook rogue talent, slippery mind. It was changed in the recent ultimate combat errata. I don't see why GM's couldn't house rule that it still viable. I could even see the editors actually removing it and folding its effects into the new unchained version of slippery mind.

Edit: sure enough, pathfinder unchained precedes latest ultimate combat errata by about 4 months. That explains hard minded and master trick

Grand Lodge

Again, no book so no page numbers, but I noticed that in the Unchained barbarian section of the book, there are a couple of rage powers missing from the list of rage powers from other sources:

APG: Spellbreaker (since this just adds a feat that doesn't seem to be replicated by any new rage power, I don't see why this was left out)
UCom: Dragon Totem Wings (since the other Dragon Totem rage powers were listed here and the wings themselves don't seem to mess with any of the new barbarian mechanics, it seems erroneous it was omitted)

While we're on the subject of rage powers, I noticed that Bestial Climber and Bestial Swimmer were removed and their abilities folded into the new-and-improved Raging Climber and Raging Swimmer. Raging Leaper also got an upgrade, but what it didn't receive, like its similar counterparts did, were the effects of the not-mentioned Bestial Leaper. This may have been intentional, since the original Bestial Leaper essentially allowed a barbarian to perform that oh so scandalous combination of Spring Attack and Vital Strike, which the devs may have been trying to avoid.

Grand Lodge

In speaking of rage powers, I'm bringing up this because I think it warrants clarification.

The new and improved auspicious mark rage power says you can add 1d6 to the result of your d20 roll and at various levels "this bonus increases by 1". This is awkward wording for this description and it's uncertain if this means:

* an extra d6 (1d6 -> 2d6)
OR
* a +1 bonus to the roll (1d6 -> 1d6+1)

Grand Lodge

The unchained summoner got (in my opinion) some much-needed rebalancing. I'm so glad to see the spell list it was originally intended to get, and that its eidolon got reigned in a bit and subsequently was unbanned from our table. Many including myself noticed, however, that only the Advanced Players Guide options were recreated in its new write-up, which differed from the other Unchained classes that featured updates of rage powers and rogue talents from sources other than the core rulebook. Those left out:

Base forms:
Aquatic

Evolutions:
1-Point: Basic Magic, Hooves, Low-Light Vision, Unnatural Aura
2-Point: Channel Resistance, Head, Keen Scent, Minor Magic, Shadow Blend*, Shadow Form*, Undead Appearance
3-Point: Major Magic, See in Darkness
4-Dimension Door, Incorporeal Form, Lifesense, No Breath, Ultimate Magic

*While most of the above are found in Ultimate Magic, these two are in the Fetchling section of Advanced Race Guide.

I feel like there's a lot that can be done here to bring these to the unchained summoner eventually, possibly in a later book that brings more updates to this class. Especially considering we have other great outsider subtypes that haven't been used yet for eidolon options, including:

Aeon
Asura
Demodand
Kami
Kyton
Nightshade*
Oni
Qlippoth
Rakshasa

*While not technically outsiders, nightshades I feel could get a pass there as undead outsiders. They would certainly make great use of the Undead appearance, channel resistance, shadow blend, and shadow form evolutions mentioned above.

Also, in speaking of these unused evolutions...

Grand Lodge

I don't have the book in front of me, so no page numbers, but the 20th-level azata eidolon ability says they can "activate any spell-like ability evolutions it possesses" when in its evolution form.

What's strange about this is that the Azata eidolon doesn't actually gain any spell-like abilities on its own, and there aren't any evolutions that I see that just add spell-like abilities, unless you look to the Ultimate Magic evolutions I mentioned in my last post, which include basic magic (1 pt), minor magic (2 pt), major magic (3 pt), and ultimate magic (4 pt). Since those haven't been updated in the unchained summoner write-up to dictate what eidolons can take them, is it still ok to use these?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Skill Consolidations: Was it really meant for the Slayer not to have Perception as a Class Skill, which replaces only Perception and sense motives-both of which are normally Class Skills?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Strife2002 wrote:

The unchained summoner got (in my opinion) some much-needed rebalancing. I'm so glad to see the spell list it was originally intended to get, and that its eidolon got reigned in a bit and subsequently was unbanned from our table. Many including myself noticed, however, that only the Advanced Players Guide options were recreated in its new write-up, which differed from the other Unchained classes that featured updates of rage powers and rogue talents from sources other than the core rulebook. Those left out:

Base forms:
Aquatic

I feel like there's a lot that can be done here to bring these to the unchained summoner eventually, possibly in a later book that brings more updates to this class. Especially considering we have other great outsider subtypes that haven't been used yet for eidolon options, including:

Aeon
Asura
Demodand
Kami
Kyton
Nightshade
Oni
Qlippoth
Rakshasa

FYI: the Kyton version of the unchained eidolon will appear in the updated and compiled Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.


Bellona wrote:
Strife2002 wrote:

The unchained summoner got (in my opinion) some much-needed rebalancing. I'm so glad to see the spell list it was originally intended to get, and that its eidolon got reigned in a bit and subsequently was unbanned from our table. Many including myself noticed, however, that only the Advanced Players Guide options were recreated in its new write-up, which differed from the other Unchained classes that featured updates of rage powers and rogue talents from sources other than the core rulebook. Those left out:

Base forms:
Aquatic

I feel like there's a lot that can be done here to bring these to the unchained summoner eventually, possibly in a later book that brings more updates to this class. Especially considering we have other great outsider subtypes that haven't been used yet for eidolon options, including:

Aeon
Asura
Demodand
Kami
Kyton
Nightshade
Oni
Qlippoth
Rakshasa

FYI: the Kyton version of the unchained eidolon will appear in the updated and compiled Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.

And "Dragons" as they had a template to make one via chained summoner.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Has no designer weighed in yet about the Improved Feint combat trick?

As it stands, that combat trick is only usable by a character who would not otherwise be able to qualify for the feat. According to the current text for the combat trick, a character can spend 5 stamina points to feint as a move action - something which the feat itself allows one to do already (and without having to use stamina points).

While one can theorise as to the RAI, it would really help a number of my feinting characters to know what that combat trick's real text should have been.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Well, yeah, but if you don't meet the prerequisite, you don't get the feat, unless you take this combat trick. So: if you have intelligence 13+, you take Improved Feint as a feat, and you don't need a stamina pool to use it. If your intelligence is less than 13, you take Combat Stamina, and then you take Improved Feint, but you have to expend five stamina points to use the feat. I don't see a problem with this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Combat tricks are also supposed to benefit characters who already qualify for and have the relevant feat (not just those who couldn't get the feat without the combat trick).

Grand Lodge

Pg. 14 - Unchained Monk bonus feats

The bonus feats ability for the unchained monk is one of the few things not altered between it and its vanilla counterpart. As a direct copy-paste, it stands to reason the unchained version would still be eligible for bonus feats that were added to the list in later books, but the text here wasn't altered to include them. Specifically, a monk (and supposedly, an unchained monk) adds the following to their list of bonus feats, with the level these become available in parentheses:

- Ki Diversity (6th)
- Ki Throw (10th)
- Binding Throw (14th)
- Improved Ki Throw (14th)

Grand Lodge

Any potential errors I found were resolved by way of Everyman's Unchained line, but I always found the condensed skill rules completely unmanageable and unfairly divided between classes. Mostly in feeling many classes were not given as many class skills as they should.

Also, in creating an Unchained Monk that couldn't use any of its archetypes was an error I felt could have been avoided. That still baffles and frustrates me to no end in how that was put together.


Skill Unlocks, P83, Craft

The 15 rank version is a wild decrease in your ability to craft things.

With a craft result of 41 and a (raised) DC of 35 (say a +10/+10 or two increases Falchion, starting DC15) you end up making 205sp progress a day. As written you now make 41sp progress a day with a 41 result.

Grand Lodge

Purplefixer wrote:

Skill Unlocks, P83, Craft

The 15 rank version is a wild decrease in your ability to craft things.

With a craft result of 41 and a (raised) DC of 35 (say a +10/+10 or two increases Falchion, starting DC15) you end up making 205sp progress a day. As written you now make 41sp progress a day with a 41 result.

I apologize if I'm being dense, but I don't quite follow you here. It looks like the 15 rank reward is essentially allowing you to make a check towards weekly progress like normal, and then multiply that result by 7 (or however many days are in a week in your particular game world), since it's now the result of daily progress. Likewise, checking daily progress now allows you to avoid dividing by 7. Am I not understanding your original concern?


The unchained rules say

"15 Ranks: When you determine your progress, the result of your check is how much work you complete each day in silver pieces."

It should say

"15 Ranks: When you determine your progress, the result of your check × the DC is how much work you complete each day in silver pieces."

Otherwise, it represents a loss in productivity compared to the normal rules for Craft.

Grand Lodge

OH. Yes, I see it now.

Grand Lodge

Pg. 34 - Eidolon Base Forms

The base forms here mention an attack entry that seemingly sets in stone the attacks these base forms receive, regardless of subtype, which isn't the case. Some bipeds get a slam instead of claws or, in the case of the Azata, no natural attacks but they receive weapon training at 1st level. Likewise, serpentine base forms have attacks that vary wildly between different eidolon subtypes. Therefore, it may be prudent to change the attack entry of each of these base forms to the following:

"Attack varies per subtype"

Grand Lodge

Pg. 33 - Inevitable eidolons

Inevitable eidolons apparently gain immunity to sleep twice - once at 12th level and then again at 20th level. Not sure which is correct (I'm leaning towards 12th level staying and 20th-level mention being deleted) or if one of those was meant to be something different.

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