Occult Adventures Speculation and Discussion

[MMCJawa]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

The outsider I'd like to see would be "Inner Demons", repressed memory and emotion given physical shape via ectoplasm.

Going with that idea, I actually would really like to see something like the creatures from David Cronenberg's The Brood. Those were pretty creepy takes on that idea.

[Joe Wells]

Nathan Nasif wrote:

Crystal dragons are one of the five primal dragons, along with brine, cloud, magma, and umbral dragons. I believe they are in bestiary 2. They are not the gem dragons of yore.

My mistake. Since the gemstone dragons were also psionic, I thought they were what was being discussed. Carry on!

[Dragon78]

Well if we get 5 new dragons that are psychic related then spirit, dream, chakra, esper, and astral would be cool. Though it more then likely would not be in this book but a hardcover bestiary.

[Torbyne]

I mentioned this idea once before but now that paizo is actually doing a psychic class... use the alchemist as a starting point, it's already a "magical non caster" with non magical, non vancian, shapeable blasting and the extracts pretty much all fall in line with psychic powers.

[Odraude]

That's the Kineticist. It will not be a caster but still manifest psychic abilities.

[Dragon78]

Actually they are doing 6 psychic magic classes;)

[Odraude]

True. The kineticist was specifically called out as not being a caster but still capable of manifesting powers.

[Dragon78]

The Kineticist might not be the only non-caster psychic class but only time will tell.

[Adam B. 135]

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

This has nothing to do with this product at all.

Depends on the points of view.

I think I get you. Mind telling me if I understand right?

This is a thread about speculating for the Occult Mysteries book. Part of speculation includes iconic designs and monster designs. That article is related to this speculation because you (and I) want to see that article's message properly translated into this upcoming Paizo book?

[Dragon78]

I would like a class ability to psychically construct limbs(and maybe some organs like eyes) with psychic energy. So a person who lost a arm would gain back the use of that limb in the form of a energy based solid construct that functions as there lost arm.

[Lord Mhoram]

Dragon78 wrote:

I would like a class ability to psychically construct limbs(and maybe some organs like eyes) with psychic energy. So a person who lost a arm would gain back the use of that limb in the form of a energy based solid construct that functions as there lost arm.

I haven't thought about Gil the ARM for years. I agree. That would be cool. :D

[Rob Godfrey]

sounds like psionics is going to be another Vancnian scheme..and so why bother? Psionics aren't magic thematically so why give them the same system as magic?

[MMCJawa]

Rob Godfrey wrote:

sounds like psionics is going to be another Vancnian scheme..and so why bother? Psionics aren't magic thematically so why give them the same system as magic?

Because people are familiar with slots, and reduces the risk of any sort of rules weirdness/balance problems with introducing completely novel mechanics

I think you can maintain psychic magic as pretty distinct..even with a slot-based system there are lots of combinations and mechanics you could incorporate into the mechanics to make it feel novel.

[Ross Byers]

Rob Godfrey wrote:

Psionics aren't magic thematically so why give them the same system as magic?

Divine and arcane magic are different, but use the same system. Heck, clerical magic and druidic magic are different, but use the same system. Alchemy is different from magic, but uses damn close to the same system.

Part of it is ease-of-use: spell slots are a known quantity. (The same applies to designing them - Its easier to avoid making something over- or under-powered by using established mechanics.)

It saves space in the book, because rather than spending words talking about how psychic magic is different, it can spend words talking about cool new monsters, class powers, spells, or magic items.

And it helps ensure backward compatibility. By using spell levels and spell slots, it means that psychic casters can use metamagic feats, pearls of power, scrolls, and whatever, instead of having all their options in the new book.

[Odraude]

Rob Godfrey wrote:

sounds like psionics is going to be another Vancnian scheme..and so why bother? Psionics aren't magic thematically so why give them the same system as magic?

Also not all fans believe that psionics isn't magic. I for one love psionics but I see it more like a type of magic from the soul.

[Lord Mhoram]

Odraude wrote:

Rob Godfrey wrote:

sounds like psionics is going to be another Vancnian scheme..and so why bother? Psionics aren't magic thematically so why give them the same system as magic?

Also not all fans believe that psionics isn't magic. I for one love psionics but I see it more like a type of magic from the soul.

I agree. Part of it may be my having played Rolemaster back in the 80s, but that is how I saw it.

Arcane is manipulating the ambient energy of the universe.
Divine is power granted from a higher power
Physic is from the mind/soul of the caster.

[Luthorne]

Rob Godfrey wrote:

Psionics aren't magic thematically so why give them the same system as magic?

Since when? Psionics has been integrated with magic for a long time, though there has been something of a pull recently to separate it from 'magic' in the same way that science is distinct from natural philosophy...with a lot of the dross and pointless superstition cleaned away to view the real core behind what is called magic. Not that I personally believe in psychic powers, nor am I particularly wedded to Vancian magic, but I certainly have always viewed psionics as a form of magic...given that they are generally classed as being supernatural in nature.

Of course, some settings have chosen to separate the two, though even then there is often a connection as ultimately being the same power manifested in different ways, with psychic powers often being innate and generally less versatile, but potent in their areas and capable of doing things that would be much more difficult (if not impossible) to accomplish with magic. But anything is potentially possible, since it's all fiction...and psionics has certainly been magic in plenty of science fiction (along with advanced alien technology, of course).

Regardless, quite interested in the kineticist in particular, and what particular wrinkles in Vancian spellcasting will be involved for the others...after all, the alchemist, arcanist, and shaman all essentially use Vancian spellcasting, but have their own minor twists in regards to it, so it will be interesting to see what particular changes are utilized to make it seem more psychic.

Also quite interested in the possibility of fleshing out the astral plane and the ethereal plane...I wonder if the Dimension of Dreams will be involved? It certainly seems like it would be appropriate. I'm also wondering if there might be some expansion on how divination spells operate, given how divination has long been tied with psychics in particular, as has their own flavors of necromancy, dealing with spirits, and other such things. I wonder if spirits that psychics interact with will tie into shamanic spirits, or be a totally new kind of spirit? I'd rather have them tied together, since I already find shamanic spirits a bit undefined, and tying in shamanic traditions as being different but related to some forms of psychic magic would be quite interesting to me...

Man, definitely looking forward to the playtest.

[thejeff]

I have to admit, while the line does blur between magic and psionics, I'm not sure I can think of a single fantasy (or science fiction) world where psionics has anything like a Vancian mechanic. Admittedly in many worlds magic also doesn't work by Vancian rules, so the distinction between magic and psychic powers isn't that clear, but that doesn't mean Vancian mechanics represent psionics well.

[Ross Byers]

Odraude wrote:

I for one love psionics but I see it more like a type of magic from the soul.

Given that this book is called 'Occult Adventures' instead of 'Psychic Adventures', I think you may be onto something.

[Dragon78]

I really hope they tells what all 6 classes will be called before the playtest. Speaking of the playtest, I hope they give us a date soon, because I would actually like to get off from work the day it starts.

I always thought of psychic magic as from the mind, but since it is called "Occult Adventures" and we even have a spiritualist class then you might have something about this soul magic thing.

[Luthorne]

Tangentially, anyone hoping for either a kineticist archetype with some kung fu mixed in, or a monk archetype that snags some kineticist abilities for a single element? Or perhaps a ninja archetype that does something similar...could be some cool wuxia possibilities there. I know, I know...ninja archetypes, that's crazy talk.

[Robert Brookes]

If I know the design team, there'll be some Avatar-style archetypes that take advantage of the kineticist. Whether it's an archetype for kineticist or monk I have no idea. But I have faith it'll happen! If more people would like to see something like that, though, keep making your voices heard :)

[Amanuensis]

Luthorne wrote:

Tangentially, anyone hoping for either a kineticist archetype with some kung fu mixed in, or a monk archetype that snags some kineticist abilities for a single element? Or perhaps a ninja archetype that does something similar...could be some cool wuxia possibilities there. I know, I know...ninja archetypes, that's crazy talk.

I would like to see an archetype for a warrior that enhances martial prowess with psychokinetic powers. Preferably a thrown weapon master using chakrams or starknifes, somewhat akin to the Zeison-Sha warrior from Star Wars.

[Dragon78]

I am hoping for some bender type archetypes though the kineticist itself might already fit that mold.

[Wolfism]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rgk2?A-Wind-Combatant-Build-help

Mark Siefter spoiled something in another thread about a wind based character called an areokineticist. Probably an archetype, but it seemed like it would be in the upcoming playtest.

[Dragon78]

Areokineticist is a type of Kineticist not an archetype. It was already mentioned that air would be one of the choices along with fire, water, and standard telekinesis.

[the xiao]

and electrokinecis right? or Am I dreaming?

[Mark Seifter]

Wolfism wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rgk2?A-Wind-Combatant-Build-help

Mark Siefter spoiled something in another thread about a wind based character called an areokineticist. Probably an archetype, but it seemed like it would be in the upcoming playtest.

As Dragon pointed out, excitingly, we had already revealed this (watch the podcast to see!). Also, its 'ei', like in 'eidolon'. It even makes a long 'i' sound just like 'eidolon', as it turns out. :)

[Ellias Aubec]

The aforementioned precognition would be interesting, allowing some form of 'taking back' a turn because of what someone else did, or allowing for multiple versions of yourself to be present at once but at the penalty of not being present for the turns after (ie turn 1 you have 2 of yourself, but turn 2 you don't exist, but come back in turn 3).

I always liked the Soul Knife idea of using your inner reserves to create matter to help you out, although maybe to reduce the overlap there have it so that they can manifest generic items etc rather than weapons.

[Odraude]

One thing I want to know is the significant difference between occult magic and normal magic. From the description of what people want (fairies, spirits, ethereal planes) , they sound more like esoteric arcane magic. I would like to read the differences.

[MMCJawa]

I get the feeling that the major difference between occult and normal magic is that the former is more grounded in folklore/paranormal phenomena from the last three centuries, while the latter is more literary magic.

[Odraude]

True, but what about sources of magic? Arcane is generally the magic of the universe, while divine is the magic of the gods. So what will the source of magic be for occult magic?

[MMCJawa]

magic of the mind? Power that comes from within, in contrast to magic from a higher power or your environment?

[Odraude]

True, but then where do fairy circles and world fairs fit in? How do they fit in with mind magic? Not to rain all over the parade of the wishlist here, but I'm not quite grasping the relation.

[MMCJawa]

Odraude wrote:

True, but then where do fairy circles and world fairs fit in? How do they fit in with mind magic? Not to rain all over the parade of the wishlist here, but I'm not quite grasping the relation.

I kind of agree with Odraude here. Within the Pathfinder core rulebooks, there are already themes and elements from the 19th century to present that would fit under the occult. Fairy lore is one such aspect, since we already have Fey in all the bestiaries. World Fair stuff really seems like something for a Ultimate Technology type book.

[Cthulhudrew]

Odraude wrote:

True, but then where do fairy circles and world fairs fit in? How do they fit in with mind magic? Not to rain all over the parade of the wishlist here, but I'm not quite grasping the relation.

Well, it remains to be seen yet precisely what "Occult Magic" is, but it isn't necessarily one and the same with "mind magic."

At this point, about all we know for sure is that some of it will involve utilizing/accessing/manipulating/? the Ethereal plane, and possibly the Astra as well.

[Odraude]

Cthulhudrew wrote:

Odraude wrote:

True, but then where do fairy circles and world fairs fit in? How do they fit in with mind magic? Not to rain all over the parade of the wishlist here, but I'm not quite grasping the relation.

Well, it remains to be seen yet precisely what "Occult Magic" is, but it isn't necessarily one and the same with "mind magic."

At this point, about all we know for sure is that some of it will involve utilizing/accessing/manipulating/? the Ethereal plane, and possibly the Astra as well.

Fair enough. From what I'm understanding, they are taking a lot from esoteric magics. Things like chakra and The Seven Rays and, I'd imagine, Gnosistism. So more magic of the soul, rather than of the mind.

[nighttree]

I hope something like the 3.5 Binder makes it in here somewhere ;)

[the xiao]

nighttree wrote:

I hope something like the 3.5 Binder makes it in here somewhere ;)

Already done Pal, check Pact Magic Unbound.

[Brybry]

Do we know when the play test might be released?

[brad2411]

Erik Posted this on one of the other threads

Erik Mona wrote:

Devian wrote:

I for one like psionics. Any idea when the play test will be up?

We're currently expecting playtesting to begin in late October.

Just in time for Halloween. :)

[Brybry]

brad2411 wrote:

Erik Posted this on one of the other threads

Erik Mona wrote:

Devian wrote:

I for one like psionics. Any idea when the play test will be up?

We're currently expecting playtesting to begin in late October.

Just in time for Halloween. :)

Thanks!

[James Langley]

I was thinking of asking around for that info too. Glad someone knew :)

YAY PLAYTEST!

[zergtitan]

So in terms of the release date estimation we should see the earliest possible release of the playtest around the week of the 22nd.

[Heladriell]

Cavalier orders could fit a role in occultism related material. Several real secret orders in history used mystic symbolism. Creating some paranormal/mystic/spiritualistic/kinethisist order could provide material for the cavalier and samurai.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Oh yes, the link between the Knights Templar and the Freemasons makes for an interesting Cavalier order.

[Insain Dragoon]

There we go! Even if we don't get a real Occult Samurai, which is a very heavily used archetype in media, at least an occult order would be cool.

[Ithaeur]

I hope occult magic is less broken than arcane & divine magic.

[Dragon78]

Well since the playtest is supposed to be at the end of this month does anyone want to guess what all the classes will be?

We know there is a Kineticist and Spiritualist.

There are a lot of choices though such as Swami, Fakir, Telepath, Psychic, Seer, Medium, Occultist, Mentalist, Mystic, Clairvoyant, etc.

[Heladriell]

Those are all good guesses.
Let me try to add some:
Possessed, Cultist, Mesmerist, Star-child, Archivist, Channeler, Devourer, Yogi, Dervish, Evolutionist, Transcendent, Hermetic, Esper Knight, Savant, Templar.