Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Hello,
I wonder if something is designed, to take care of this problem.
It is the sad reality, that some people will log/log-off to pick easy kills, if given the occasion. Because it is far easier to log-off 2 hours to 4 days and come back, than keeping guard and staying alert for hours and days.
In a perfect situation, an enemy will discreetly infiltrate your territory. He will have the time to cause some disruptions before the local authoritys react, depending on their response time. The bandit(s) will then, have to avoid elimination, by fleeing, fighting, or hide and try to close some more disruptions. That's a meaningful interaction.
From my experience in EvE, there was A LOOOOOT of players who just lived in the middle of enemy territory. These guys were living for the easy kill, and they would just log-off at the first sign of any danger.
Obviously, the situation is different in PFO, mainly because of the reputation system. Still, the problem could be the same for war target, and even a very low-rep character can be a pain in the ass of our most vulnerable no-PvP players. We will have some, as much as they will have to accept PvP as part of the game... I just don't call that kind of practice "PvP".
So, there is maybe already a response to my concern, and that I would be happy to hear it. I really really don't read everything about this game for the simple reason that even though I do speak English, it is still some effort to read vast amount of it, and so, I can miss a lot of things !
Goblin Squad Member
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If nothing else, I hope there's a long disconnect time unless you're in a building meant for socialization and rest (like a tavern or smallhold). I guess you don't want it to be too long in case someone got disconnect for honest reasons (e.g. power outage) but long enough that people can't pop in and out of the game with impunity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This hasn't been discussed yet. I would suggest that logging off in a non-allied settlement's sovereign territory should leave your character in game and attackable for some long period of time- perhaps 5-10 minutes- unless you build a Hideout or have some other structural investment in infiltrating that hex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My first gut feeling was that a character shouldn't be able to log out (the character stays on the server even if the player logs out or loses connection) as long as he has an active flag like Criminal. But that doesn't really work for some flags that are up until some activity is stopped (Heinous) or those 24-hour flags like Murderer.
A number of log-out timers might be one answer. So a normal unflagged character could logout/leave the server in one minute; 30 seconds (or instantly?) in a "safe" place like a friendly or neutral settlement, or a tavern. Logging out in hostile territory (you have an active feud or war dec against the owning company or settlement) might take 2 minutes if you are unflagged. All these times would need to be set/balanced against movement times and hex size.
A short term flag like Criminal could double those numbers; a long term/permanent flag like Heinous or Murderer could take even longer, 3x or 5x.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From my experience in EvE, there was A LOOOOOT of players who just lived in the middle of enemy territory. These guys were living for the easy kill, and they would just log-off at the first sign of any danger.
And you could scan them down and kill them in a very short amount of time. If someone logs off in Eve, you have about 5 minutes if they are not aggressed(if I remember) to scan them down. If they were aggressed, then you had 15 minutes to do it.
More then enough time to kill someone who logs off.
Its a non issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With respect to logout timers, I hope Goblinworks keeps in mind the social aspect of it. It's much more conducive to saying "good night" when there's a 20-second timer after you click Log Out, which also gives your friends an opportunity to say "good night" in return, or even to say "hey, wait a minute, can I ask you something before you go?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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With respect to logout timers, I hope Goblinworks keeps in mind the social aspect of it. It's much more conducive to saying "good night" when there's a 20-second timer after you click Log Out, which also gives your friends an opportunity to say "good night" in return, or even to say "hey, wait a minute, can I ask you something before you go?"
Well, with the timers in current use.... You can choose to stay or go.
Up to a couple years ago in Eve, when you logged out, you logged out and your character would remain in game till the timer ran out. You didnt have a choice other then to dock up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A long logout timer outside of a building specificaly designed for such use would mitigate the issue pretty well. So 15 minutes if you are tagged as hostile in enemy territory works. I'd assume that something like an INN in an NPC starter town or your home settlement would have near instantaneous logout (30 seconds?).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wasn't there a huge discussion about this about a year ago, where all the casual people and hardcore people were yelling back and fourth? I think I started it, and I think it was along the lines of having sleepers like Rust, for logged out players.
If it couldn't be exploited, I would suggest players are returned to their bind point when logging out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Had a somewhat related experience to this on the weekend.
I logged out to switch toons for a bit. When I logged back in on one parked outside of town I was almost dead cause someone was attacking me.
I don't know if I had been sitting there the whole time or if it was just because I was taking a long time to load the environment.
I ran away and healed up. Then tracked him down and gave him the proper stomping he deserved. Next time we saw eachother on the map he was the one running away.
I should note that I lost rep as he was no longer flagged. As he lay bleeding out I decided to finish him off and lost rep again. Not sure if the double rep loss is intended or not.
Most games have a timer to log out if you're not in an "inn" or equivalent building. Most don't allow you to log out if you're in combat. Most keep you in game for 5-15 minutes if you "disconnect". These are pretty much standard and I would hope that PFO would have some equivalency.
It could go further that if a criminal action was committed, you have to wait 5-15 minutes until you can initiate a logout, and then the preceding qualifiers come into play.
Also, Shadowbane had a system like what Valkenr mentioned...if you logged out or were disconnected for longer than 15 minutes (iirc) you would log back into your bind point. This was to prevent stashing alts in enemy territory as undetectable spies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This discussion has been had, but I don't think it had resolution.
As someone with young children who may have to depart the game at a moment's notice, the notion of a log-out timer longer than 1 minute sounds absolutely absurd to me. Honestly, longer than 20 seconds sounds crazy, but I understand the log-off-to-hide concerns that folks have to consider a little crazy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, I think that the comment I heard about this may have been that you log in at a Shrine, not necessarily one you soulbound to. Probably the nearest.
That would be more useful for people planning long journeys for training and trade. I imagine myself having to log in and out several times a day when I have time available. Anything longer than an hour is likely (generally) to be limited to weekends.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I should note that I lost rep as he was no longer flagged. As he lay bleeding out I decided to finish him off and lost rep again. Not sure if the double rep loss is intended or not.Wow... I hope you can loot the body as they lay there bleeding...
Can't loot yet. Not sure when that will be implemented. He was in starter gear and was a name I hadn't seen before, so he probably had nothing of value anyways.
Only reason I can think of for the double rep loss was that I waited before finishing him off and maybe that counted as a second fight?
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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You will log in at a Shrine of Pharasma you have soulbound to, not the point where you logged out.What are you doing to keep people from using this as a 'teleport home' ability?
I think, on the whole, we're more worried about Trojan Horse tactics than free teleports, but will ideally develop a compromise that handles both reasonably well. As Ryan mentioned, we will probably try to set it up so you're likely to log back in "at a bind point nearby but not deep within enemy lines," and gradually improve on how we determine that location.
It also may take a while of being logged out before you get reset to a bind point. We don't want to split someone from his or her group just because of a brief disconnect. One of the major things we want to prevent is people sneaking into a location that will be vulnerable much later, logging out, and then appearing out of nowhere when the location is vulnerable, and that means we don't have to reset you quickly, just after you've been logged out a while.
As mentioned further up, logouts are unlikely to be instant, so you can't just disconnect and be safe from your pursuers. The amount of time we actually leave you in will likely be heavily influenced by how long programming thinks is reasonable to have all your data active in the world when you're not actually connected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the notion of "If you have been logged out for X time, you will log back in at the nearest shrine. Or nearest bind point." I think nearest shrine is less abusable for trade purposes.
Wilderness shrines near popular hexes could become Log-in spawn camping locations. Just something to be wary of. But could be the risk you take by logging out in the wilds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Commodity X sells for 50 gold at settlement A and 250 gold at settlement B.
Commodity Y sells for 500 gold at settlement B and 1000 gold at settlement A.
So as a trader I would bind at settlement A take my lower risk goods to settlement B, buy the high risk / high profit goods then log off for a risk free autopilot back to settlement A. During which time I would just play my combat character.
A transport to the nearest shrine is the best idea put forth so far though I would put nearest shrine or friendly hideout. If you can't handle the risks then don't go into enemy territory.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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And you could scan them down and kill them in a very short amount of time. If someone logs off in Eve, you have about 5 minutes if they are not aggressed(if I remember) to scan them down. If they were aggressed, then you had 15 minutes to do it.
More then enough time to kill someone who logs off.
Its a non issue.
No it's not.
I know you have a great experience as a L-Sec pirate, but it's very different than having to protect miners 24/7.
And EvE is used as an example, I am not asking a solution for EvE. Which means that you can't use the 15 minutes log-off as an argument, since that's exactly the point of my thread, talking about how it will be. Obviously, if there is a 15 minutes log-out timer and a possibility to track the enemy that's fine, but it isn't the case for now.
If I wanted a debate about EvE, I would have talked about the 24/7 cloacked ship you can't do anything about without cheats.
@People worried about IRL life and emergency well, I hear you, but we are talking about a situation where you are in enemy territory, attacking people. If your character dies because you don't have the time to flee well, I don't think that it is that much of a big deal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A while ago I though it might be cool (if they had the tech) to let my character wander around, if I logged out in my home settlement, as an NPC till someone actually killed me. Perhaps chose a couple favored locations I would wander between. I know, probably not logical but...
An MMO called Atriarch proposed something like that several years ago. They wanted to have something similar to GW's reputation score, and they proposed that killing a logged-out shopkeeper should cost a lot of reputation, but killing a logged-out settlement leader should cost very little reputation. It made assassination risk one of the costs of political power.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Commodity X sells for 50 gold at settlement A and 250 gold at settlement B.
Commodity Y sells for 500 gold at settlement B and 1000 gold at settlement A.
So as a trader I would bind at settlement A take my lower risk goods to settlement B, buy the high risk / high profit goods then log off for a risk free autopilot back to settlement A. During which time I would just play my combat character.
I expect that time would be long enough that market conditions could significantly change.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No it's not.
I know you have a great experience as a L-Sec pirate, but it's very different than having to protect miners 24/7.
I have done plenty of miner protection, in high sec, low sec, and 0.0.
And EvE is used as an example, I am not asking a solution for EvE. Which means that you can't use the 15 minutes log-off as an argument, since that's exactly the point of my thread, talking about how it will be. Obviously, if there is a 15 minutes log-out timer and a possibility to track the enemy that's fine, but it isn't the case for now.
Sure, its not the case in Alpha, but why couldnt it be the case in PFO? No reason there couldnt be a log off timer. Why exactly can I not use the argument? It makes perfect sense...
I just ganked you in your territory. You grab friends and come hunt me. I see that you have a party now, so I just log off... but my character stands there for 15 minutes... If you find me then you get to kill me.
If I wanted a debate about EvE, I would have talked about the 24/7 cloacked ship you can't do anything about without cheats.
I am talking about PFO, and used the example that you used from Eve that would work perfectly well right here.
@People worried about IRL life and emergency well, I hear you, but we are talking about a situation where you are in enemy territory, attacking people. If your character dies because you don't have the time to flee well, I don't think that it is that much of a big deal.
It happens, not much can be done about it. I think most of us can agree with that.
It's too bad we can't go back to 8-16 bit and have actual log out points, kind of like save points. Would be a shock at first, but I think people would adapt and might lead to alot better game play. So many log out log in exploits. I for one wouldn't care if it made for a better game.
Field logging is wack! Best case you should be able to autopath your char to a log out zone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eh, I think you should log in where you logged off... If your in enemy territory, you may not like where you logged in at.
The main reason I want it, if I am out at an extreme distance from my settlement or an NPC settlement, and do not want to spend half my next play session to get back there. Seems like a lot of time wasted for something that is really a non issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the notion of "If you have been logged out for X time, you will log back in at the nearest shrine. Or nearest bind point." I think nearest shrine is less abusable for trade purposes.
I like this idea. I'd also suggest some form of limited immunity after logging in. If for no other reason than sometimes the server thinks you're logged in before your graphics card has caught up. Something like "You're immune to damage for one minute after logging in or after moving more than X (short) distance from the shrine."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@People worried about IRL life and emergency well, I hear you, but we are talking about a situation where you are in enemy territory, attacking people. If your character dies because you don't have the time to flee well, I don't think that it is that much of a big deal.
Do you think a 1-minute hold-still interrupt-able timer is sufficient? I can see arguments for longer logouts if the logout process was not able to be interrupted, or if someone could actively run away while waiting for the logout to expire. But I'd rather have you lock me in place for a minute and stop me from logging if someone hits me.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Do you think a 1-minute hold-still interrupt-able timer is sufficient? I can see arguments for longer logouts if the logout process was not able to be interrupted, or if someone could actively run away while waiting for the logout to expire. But I'd rather have you lock me in place for a minute and stop me from logging if someone hits me.
1 minute ? Er, in friendly territory yeah.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect that time would be long enough that market conditions could significantly change.
I expect gold and coal will almost always be cheapest in hilly regions (Since those the the exclusive producers) and the biggest factors in determining their price outside those regions will be distance and diplomatic relations with the owners of those regions.
The same goes for any other resource exclusive to a hex type.
Those are things unlikely to change over a few hours. Prices may fluctuate up and down a bit but a smart trader may very well have a stockpile of Commodity Y in Settlement A and a stockpile of Commidity X in settlement B. So that that when the current market fluctuations are in their favor they can cash in on it.
The great example would be Talonguard and Phaeros on the day one EE map. If you stockpile hill resources in Phaeros and swamp resources in Talonguard then there will always be demand, and you can wait until the right time to sell your stock for the best price.
Since swamps are fairly rare their resources are likely the more valuable meaning you're best off binding in Talonguard and logging off once you buy the swamp resources in Phaeros.
Of course Phaeros loses it's relevancy once the swamps west of Talonguard open up but that's not going to be something that happens quickly and unannounced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those are things unlikely to change over a few hours.
I wouldn't expect the devs to send you back home after only a few hours.
What I think would be kind of cool, though, is if they put all your unbound stuff in Escrow until you returned to the shrine near where you logged out, at which point you'd have to move it overland to get it back home.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That sounds more like a royal nuisance to me. If that was the case and it takes a few days to get your character to get home then every time you log out you're going to log back in without your gear and supplies somewhere in-between where you last logged out and your home settlement.
What are the advantages to that over sticking people in the nearest uncontrolled friendly or uncontrolled shrine? The possibility that you might log on in an unfriendly shrine?
In either option I'm going to go stealth in the nearest natural cover if I desperately need to go afk unexpectedly rather than logging out but faced between the two options I'd rather chance a death upon logging in vs. the certainty of logging on somewhere I don't want to be without my gear.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I like the solution of "If you're logged out for a significant period of time, you log back in at the nearest location that you are eligible to bind to."
Combined with wilderness shrines, appropriate logout timers, and the ability of a savvy defender to open up a bind point to the public, and then heavily guard it, I think that all of the easily predictable problems are dealt with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you think a 1-minute hold-still interrupt-able timer is sufficient? I can see arguments for longer logouts if the logout process was not able to be interrupted, or if someone could actively run away while waiting for the logout to expire. But I'd rather have you lock me in place for a minute and stop me from logging if someone hits me.1 minute ? Er, in friendly territory yeah.
How is friendly territory defined then? What about neutral territory?
Is the idea that you must be required to stay online long enough for a search party from neighboring hexes to be able to find you? 5 minutes is enough for people 2 hexes away to reach your last seen location. 15 minutes is 10 hexes away. What is the goal, to prevent someone hiding from imminent threat? 1 minute is long enough for that, you can cross visual range in a minute with ease. To get away before backup arrives from 3 hexes over? That seems to be overdoing it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lifedragn, Yeah, I'd think that time to log-out wouldn't/shouldn't be more than the time to move 1/2 hex (in friendly /neutral territory) or 1 hex (in enemy territory). Maybe it should be even less.
(I'd define friendly territory as settlement and POI hexes held by your settlement or company, or officially allied settlements and companies. Enemy territory is settlement and POI hexes held by groups that have war decs or feuds against your groups. Neutral is all other.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think EvE has it almost right for logout timers, and general unsanctioned pvp flags. 5 minutes from the last PvE action(from or against you), 15 minutes from the last hostile player action (from or against you). Bottom line, your character is in the game until things cool down. But there should be a global logout of at least a few minutes. If you want a safe logout, do it in a location with a soulbinding point, otherwise roll the dice.
I often have to abruptly step away, I accept this as part of my playtime, and it factors into what risks I'm going to take. Unless I know I have a solid hour, I'm not going to go do some hour long activity in my best gear.
There's not much that can be done for someone who doesn't know how long they have to play, catering to this crowd just presents ways to exploit escape. I'm guessing it won't be a huge deal for someone to step away for a minute or two, as long as their group is willing to hold up, some groups may even be willing to hold up for log-off timers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So our choices are -
forced login at nearest ambush, I mean shrine?
RANDOM respawn somewhere between your logout spot and a shrine (or your bind point) almost guaranteed to be within agro range of the biggest boss in the zone (hey bad luck still counts as luck!)
If you're going to be anal about loging out could you at least just try to be anal when logging out in controlled territory (to prevent your trojan horse scenario - otherwise known as an intelligent strategy) vs. EVERY time you logout in the wilderness?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I really like the idea of respawning closer and closer to your primary bind point the longer it's been since you logged out, with all your unthreaded gear in escrow at the shrine nearest where you logged out. I think this accomplishes the objective of avoiding Trojan Horses while also avoiding Offline Logistics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alright so my take on things.
If you are just logging out: 1.5 Minute Timer
If you are logging out and were PvEing: 3.5 minutes
If you are flagged: 6 minutes
The 1.5 min timer is so that you can log out pretty fast, but if you have notice something is about to happen you can still be affected. Like if your settlement is about to be attacked.
The 3.5 min timer is basically so you can't PvE in someones hex, or by yourself, and log out if you see someone coming.
The 6 min timer is if you are flagged and you try and log out, gives people time to find you and kill you.
When you log into the game, you should be invulnerable for 1-2 minutes or until you have walked 2-3 meters. This is so hardware/connections can catch up.
Logging in/out of the game. I don't know if I like the idea of logging in to the nearest bind spot. I realize that we don't want tons of people stashing alts/character someone where then logging in at the same time. Here is my suggestion:
You can log in anywhere you want if you are within your own Settlement's claimed territory. If you are outside of your claimed territory then you log into the nearest wilderness bindpoint whether that is in claimed territory or not, but not someones settlements.
If you are offline for extended periods of time, say weeks, you show up in the nearest NPC settlement. After OE some settlements might be razed, taken over, you don't want to log in after a vacation to be killed and looted.
I don't think it should be gradual, because you could get stuck some place with too many enemies, and just log out for a couple days and be outside of their range.
(to prevent your trojan horse scenario - otherwise known as an intelligent strategy)
It's not really strategy when it has no counter. If you are logged off I can't exactly remove you from my settlement's streets...so you aren't being sneaky, you're taking advantage of a game mechanic that has no counter.
Being sneaky to get in shouldn't net you potentially hours of offline safety in my area with the ability to log in later and do damage.
Now...all of that said...I personally would be ok if there was a way for you to do it, just not everyone. Say using disguise to make yourself appear as a friendly to my settlements NPCs/buildings/etc and using our inn to log off could net you the ability to log back in at that same location. You've spent in game resources (XP) to circumvent the issue...and that I'm ok with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(to prevent your trojan horse scenario - otherwise known as an intelligent strategy)It's not really strategy when it has no counter.
The definition of a thing seldom depends on characteristics of other things but on the characteristics of that thing itself. Strategy is strategy regardless whether there is or isn't any counter.
Strategy is strategy regardless whether there is or isn't any counter.
Poor choice of words on my part perhaps.
It's not the lack of a counter that is problematic...it's the lack of a reaction. Logging off in someones city or territory...doesn't provide them an opportunity to react to the fact that a spy is in their area (outside of initial entry...which, as in my previous post, shouldn't grant extended immunity).
The fact that we are constantly referencing it as a "Trojan Horse" is really a misnomer...the Trojan Horse had risks, this does not. That story would have ended much differently had it been burnt where it stood instead of being brought into the city...a choice that the "logoff" tactic doesn't allow the defenders.
If it exists within the game, it's a valid strategy and will be used by many...that doesn't change the fact that, at least in my opinion, it should't exist within the game.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It's not really strategy when it has no counter.The definition of a thing seldom depends on characteristics of other things but on the characteristics of that thing itself. Strategy is strategy regardless whether there is or isn't any counter.
Paying 5000 dollars someone to betray his guild is strategic too, it doesn't mean that it has any place in the game.
If someone can log-off and wait for days, your only option is to stay connected for days, waiting for him to come back. That's not strategic, that's just exploit.