When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill until the end of the step.
Does this mean that he can use the appropriate skill to make the check on the spell, but when the recharge step comes around, he no longer has the skill and therefore has to banish it? (Or have I misinterpreted this?)
If so, it makes sense; he crafts a potion and knocks it back. Though it makes hanging onto that Cure a bit more difficult if you have other casters in the party acquiring spells during the game.
No, I don't think you're interpreting it right. By "until the end of the step" it seems to be talking about the step of "playing a spell" so Craft is treated as Arcane and Divine until the spell is completely resolved which includes checking to see if he has to banish it and having the chance to recharge it.
In the RPG, an Alchemist gets a type of spell book called a formula book in which he records his "spells" used to make extracts. He can make this pseudo potions over and over again, just like a wizard with spells, so his ability, using the above interpretation, represents the ability very well.
Hmm...So, I definitely don't think he banishes the spells. He had the skill when he played it. This is different from Flenta, who has a condition to use the skill, but doesn't actually gain the skill.
But I'm not sure that he can recharge the spell. He only has the skill until the end of the step, and attempting the next check (which includes recharge checks) is a separate step in the encounter. So it would seem he no longer has the skill at that moment. That would then require him to discard the spell.
I think at this point I'd have to say he has to discard the spell.
The spell cards no longer say 'If you don't have x skill, banish this card.' in a separate paragraph. It says 'After playing this card, if you don't have x skill, banish it; otherwise blah blah recharge.' So I think he either banishes his spell (which makes the power useless, since Attack spells are the only one that use the arcane/divine skill outside the recharge step ... at least as far as I know) or he can use Craft to recharge his (non-Attack) spells. I believe pluvia33 is right.
Edit: I'm not sure what I would do with spells that are displayed until the end of the turn or something similar. Damiel probably has to banish those.
Edit: I'm not sure what I would do with spells that are displayed until the end of the turn or something similar. Damiel probably has to banish those.
Yeah, that seems like a problem. Based on how Damiel's power worked in the playtest, I believe the intent is that he should be treated as having those skills whenever he is interacting with the right type of spell. Maybe it would have been better if it was worded something like this:
"Whenever you are using the powers of a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you are treated as having the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill."
Edit: I'm not sure what I would do with spells that are displayed until the end of the turn or something similar. Damiel probably has to banish those.
Well, at least in RotR, I think all displayed cards have the attack trait, so it may not be an issue.
Restoration is a displayed spell, due to the errata.
Don't have my cards with me, but I don't think that Strength is an attack spell (same for Speed).
Good catch, they don't. Same for Glibness.
I personally think I WANT him to get to recharge them. But I'm just not sure the way I read it if he does or not. It all depends on what "step" means. Step is used in two of the sequences in the S&S Rulebook: Your Turn and Encountering a Card.
Option 1: Step means the step of Encountering a Card. In this case, Damiel would have the Arcane/Divine skill for the duration of the "Attempt the Check" step. The recharge check would fall under "Attempt the Next Check" because "Attempt the Check" ends with this sentence...
If any cards played while attempting a check include their own checks, resolve the current check in this step and the new checks in subsequent steps.
That tells us that the recharge check goes in Attempt the Next Check and that Attempt the Next Check is a subsequent step. So in this case, he would no longer have the Arcane/Divine for the recharge check. I don't think he banishes it, because "when played" he had the Arcane/Divine skill. Compare with, say, Valeros. Valeros would banish the spell at the end of "Attempt the Check". He wouldn't wait until "Attempt the Next Check" to banish it. So, in this case Damiel doesn't have to banish it, but he can't attempt to recharge it either.
Option 2: Step means the step of Your Turn. This would be pretty powerful. If Damiel gained Arcane/Divine for the duration of his Explore step by playing Cure during that step, then not only does he get to attempt to recharge Cure, he could start playing spells with the Attack trait and attempt to recharge them too.
That is just how I read it. I could be wrong. But I think it might be a fair trade off. He gets to automatically recharge his Alcehmical stuff (compare with Drunk Master Sajan's need to make a check to do so). If he has to discard his non-Attack spells, I think that might be a fair trade off.
I've not seen what any of the display spells in S&S are worded as. So maybe that is tweaked to take care of Damiel's powers. But if it isn't, then you have a problem with Speed, Strength, Glibness, and Restoration, since in RotR they all basically check whether you have the appropriate skill to not banish them at the end of your turn, not when playing them. But again, I've not seen how the rewording of spells impacts them, so maybe that won't be an issue.
I've not seen what any of the display spells in S&S are worded as. So maybe that is tweaked to take care of...
For your reference, here is strength's wording in S&S: "Display this card next to a character. While displayed, that character's checks using her Strength skill are increased by 3. At the end of the turn, if you do not have either the Arcane or Divine skill, banish this card, otherwise, attempt an Arcane or Divine 8 check. If you succeed, recharge this chard; if you fail, discard it."
I've not seen what any of the display spells in S&S are worded as. So maybe that is tweaked to take care of...For your reference, here is strength's wording in S&S: "Display this card next to a character. While displayed, that character's checks using her Strength skill are increased by 3. At the end of the turn, if you do not have either the Arcane or Divine skill, banish this card, otherwise, attempt an Arcane or Divine 8 check. If you succeed, recharge this chard; if you fail, discard it."
Thanks for sharing. So that is interesting. With Damiel only having Arcane/Divine until the end of the step, no matter what "step" means, I can't figure any way he wouldn't be banishing Strength. (Unless of course a developer tells us he doesn't banish it.)
It'd be nice if we could get a peep from Mike or Vic.
We're all still asleep. But we'll get you a response not long from now.
It'd be nice if we could get a peep from Mike or Vic.We're all still asleep. But we'll get you a response not long from now.
Wow, you deserve a round of applause. So dedicated you sleep walk to the keyboard to reply...
XD
Thanks, Mike!
|
Based purely on the RPG, he should be able to recharge them; alchemists prepare extracts and infusions the same way a wizard prepares spells. The only difference is that extracts are purely defensive (which is why he doesn't have the arcane and divine skills when using attack spells; he needs to use scrolls for those)
That said, I have no idea how to word his ability to allow him to recharge class-appropriate displayed spells within the rules of the card game
"While playing or recharging a spell..." perhaps?
The "step" would be "Playing a Card." Playing a Card is a step. When you play a spell that is displayed, the playing a card step, for that spell, is not over until the end of the turn. When that step is done, then you roll for recharge. Or at least that is the way I see it.
I think the "finish one thing before you do the next" would disagree with this statement. If you haven't finished playing the spell, you wouldn't be able to move on with the rest of your turn.
As Vic clarified here, the act of "playing a card" ends when you resolve that power, which for "display" spells end after you display the spell. The effect may be ongoing, but the "play a spell" step is not. The "at the end of your turn" effect is not part of playing the spell, it is a directive that tells you what to do with it at a certain time.
Here's another rewrite option that might work:
"When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill while interacting with that card."
Personally, I'd like it to be taking a step farther: "When you play or encounter a spell...." or even "When you play ([ ] or encounter) a spell...." as a possible Role power feat. It just sucks a bit that Damiel will be having a pretty hard time with acquiring Divine spells on his own, but I'm sure we're far beyond adding something like this. Maybe it can be in his Class Deck version. *wishful thinking*
...therefore the roll to recharge is now part of a mandatory action you must take when you play the card.
Hmm, I wonder if this is really the intended consequence. I feel this is a direct, albeit not massive, nerf to RotR and BCD Lem (because of their "mending" ability), among other things. It can be REALLY helpful to not make the recharge check sometimes.
Gah, I'm getting so many questions for the dev team piling up...
Vic did clarify that recharging is not playing a card, back when there was a recharge box and therefore recharging was separate from the powers box. However, the recharge box has been removed and therefore the roll to recharge is now part of a mandatory action you must take when you play the card.
Yes, the recharge box has been eliminated for clarity, but that doesn't invalidate the second point (not the first) Vic made in the post to which I originally linked:
Playing a card means activating that card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card.Once the power has been activated, the card has been played. You may have other things to do with it, but those things are not part of playing it.
The cards don't have memory, but you do. You have to remember who the spell belongs to; You don't need to remember who it was played on, because you display it by the affected character; You have to remember that Damiel has Arcane/Divine until the end of the step.
However, what is meant by "end of the step" is still unclear: which step?.
If it's the "step" of an encounter/check, then it ended when that step was resolved; Damiel loses the skill at this point (which is after the normal recharge check period, but before the end of the turn).
If it's the "step" of the current turn (ex, Move, Explore, etc) then it ends when nothing more can be done in that step; Damiel loses the skill at this point (which is after the normal recharge check period, but before the end of the turn).
If it's the "step" of playing a card (I don't recall this actually being called this, but for the sake of argument let's assume it is), then it ends when the card is displayed (per the above quote); Damiel loses the skill at this point, which is before the end of the turn. Actually, if you argue that this is the "step" to which his power refers, then he wouldn't get to recharge any spells.
It'd be nice if we could get a peep from Mike or Vic.We're all still asleep. But we'll get you a response not long from now.
Any update on this?
(Not to be pushy, just don't want it to be forgotten c: )
Any update on this?
(Not to be pushy, just don't want it to be forgotten c: )
You aren't forgotten.
You aren't forgotten.Any update on this?
(Not to be pushy, just don't want it to be forgotten c: )
Yay!
:D
Can you comment on another remark made in the thread (even if it's to say you're discussing it or something) - are recharge checks now mandatory, due to the change from recharge box to being a power?
Wait for the ruling, please.
Wait for the ruling, please.
Alright, it's different from the question asked in the original post, so I didn't know if it was even on your radar, that's all. :)
Can you comment on another remark made in the thread (even if it's to say you're discussing it or something) - are recharge checks now mandatory, due to the change from recharge box to being a power?
Just to throw my personal opinion out there, I would think the recharge attempt is "mandatory" but I would also think that it should be a check that you should be able to choose to fail (not attempt), like you can when encountering boons. I actually think you should be able to choose to fail any check you want to, but of course this would likely require a small change to the rulebook. All you would need is a small line in the Attempting a Check section, something like:
"You may choose to not attempt any check required by your character, in which case it is treated as a failure."
With that, you can remove any lines that specifically state that you don't have to attempt the check to acquire boons. There would likely almost never be a case when you would want to fail a check against a bane, but some corner case could come up where it is beneficial to the team. I think it just makes since to be able to fail any check on purpose if you want to for whatever reason. Again, just my opinion.
I, too, wish you could just choose to fail any check. I frequently find myself not wanting to defeat the villain (all those unencountered boons gone!) but once in a while my base stats kill the villain.
But more important is the recharge check. Anyone with an ability like Lem or Alahazra, or a toad or Robe of Runes, or any number of other powers that recover spells from the discard pile to the hand hopes to see optional recharges.
Can you comment on another remark made in the thread (even if it's to say you're discussing it or something) - are recharge checks now mandatory, due to the change from recharge box to being a power?
If you read the text on the spell cards, even though the recharge box in gone, the text still says you may succeed at a recharge check *meaning you don't have to make the attempt. This is also hinted at on page 23 of the S&S rulebook, in the box titled "New: No more recharge box".
If you read the text on the spell cards, even though the recharge box in gone, the text still says you may succeed at a recharge check *meaning you don't have to make the attempt. This is also hinted at on page 23 of the S&S rulebook, in the box titled "New: No more recharge box".
Can you comment on another remark made in the thread (even if it's to say you're discussing it or something) - are recharge checks now mandatory, due to the change from recharge box to being a power?
Oh, that's good.
See, I don't have any of the new cards yet, I was just going off of a previous poster's comment.
Actually, from the sample spells in this blog post, may is nowhere in the new recharge line. However, Force Missile in this blog post does include may. The blog post with Force Missile was older than the Class Decks Preview post, so maybe they changed the recharge line and not having may in there is the standard now?
"You may choose to not attempt any check required by your character, in which case it is treated as a failure."
It would need to be that you can choose to roll a net 0 after modifiers, since some checks care how much you fail them by (and damage, of course). Not attempting the check would be interesting if a location had an effect each time that you made an X check.
Ah, good point: "....treated as a failure with a total check roll of 0."
Actually, from the sample spells in this blog post, may is nowhere in the new recharge line. However, Force Missile in this blog post does include may. The blog post with Force Missile was older than the Class Decks Preview post, so maybe they changed the recharge line and not having may in there is the standard now?
Hmm... interesting. If you leaf through the S&S rulebook, there's a spell on page 24 with the "may" wording in it. Perhaps the two in the blog post were last minute typings rather than final versions, or perhaps the rulebook's spell is out of date... or perhaps some recharges will be mandatory but not all. If I ever get my shipment from Paizo, I can say more about the cards in the first stuff at least.
Also, in the play-test, recharge checks were still optional. It seems like a small change to make them mandatory, but I'd think they'd have had us play-test it that way if that was the new direction...
A few cards are missing the word "may" in the recharge text, but it *should* always be there.
That's good to know. RotR and CD Lem can rest easy tonight! XD
Here's a weird little Damiel quirk (that doctors hate):
So Potions of Healing don't have the normal "reveal" wording common to healing cards-to prevent the heal itself from being shuffled into the deck--presumably because you banish it. Only Damiel doesn't banish it, so I've been playing: recharge, roll for healing and pick cards, shuffle entire deck (including Potion of Healing). That makes it just that much more likely for me to draw it again the next go. Between that and two Tot Flasks, Damiel's party basically doesn't HAVE a discard pile.
Sajan with Drunken Master has the same issue. I think it is fine. Most of the cures are for 1d4+1 and the potion is only 1d4... so allowing it into the recharge mix is not game breaking in my opinion.
Make sense! Never used Sajan, so it hasn't come up until now.
Shaman has a similar effect: you recharge it and then shuffle one card in, making it more likely to draw Shaman again sooner. I was able to play him 3-4 times in a recent (2 player) game.
Ah yes, have started over with another set of characters, including Damiel. Would be interested in the ruling on the recharge...
So was this ever answered? I'm not finding it anywhere. My Damiel is currently stuck with two Arcane Armors because I had to banish my good spells. :/
No answer yet. It will certainly make it the FAQ once we get one. But the current feeling based on reading tea leaves and what would logically work for the character is that you should get to attempt a recharge on any non-attack spell that is recharged in the same part of the turn (i.e. any non-attack spell that is played during explore and recharged during explore). You should get to use Arcane or Divine equal to your Craft skill to attempt the recharge. Cards that don't get recharged to the end of your turn (like Strength or Speed) are more debatable, but you should probably get to recharge those as well. Attack spells should always get banished and if you have to use your Arcane/Divine die with an Attack spell you'd be rolling a d4.
Of course this could all be wrong ;)
So was this ever answered? I'm not finding it anywhere. My Damiel is currently stuck with two Arcane Armors because I had to banish my good spells. :/
You're not stuck with them if you acquire other spells.