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I have a funny feeling I know the answer to this question, but I love the concept so much that I thought I would get a second opinion.
I have a PFS who is about to get his blackblade as part of his Bladebound archetype. This character is a tiefling born in Numeria who escaped his tribe and the Technic League to find the safety of the Pathfinder Society.
I wanted his battleaxe to be (flavorfully) a slightly high-tech-looking axe. I wanted the axe to "awaken" after I leveled up in a scenario called Trial by Machine. The axe awakens after the strange stirring take place in the scenario and would activate an AI inside the axe.This would be the intelligence inside the axe as part of the bladebound archetype.
My question is this: can I make this blackblade an axe musket?
The axe musket claims that the weapon is both a musket and a battleaxe. The blackblade needs to be a one-handed slashing weapon (or rapier or sword cane). A battleaxe is a one-handed slashing weapon.
I thought that the flavor of this was excellent but I am not sure it would be feasible for Society play.
Thoughts?
The battleaxe could certainly be a Blackblade, but not the musket nor an axe musket as both are two handed weapons on the table I am looking at.
A small 2h weapon cannot become a black blade. Effort to wield and weapon category are seperate
By RAW, no, so if this is for PFS it won't work.
If its for your home game talk to your GM. Its a great idea that could easily be adapted in a way that works for your group.
So, an Axe-Musket is a Musket that counts as a Battleaxe, or a Battleaxe, that counts as a Musket?
How do you determine priority?
In Ultimate Combat it is listed as a two-handed firearm and the description starts "this musket..."
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If it is a one-handed slashing weapon, it can be a Black Blade. Simply because it is also a two-handed firearm does not take away its one-handed-slashing status.
The Black Blade requirements state "a one-handed slashing weapon" not "a one-handed slashing weapon which is not a two-handed firearm."
As usual, RAW is clear, houserules abound, and you can make up your mind about what you think should be the case, but that doesn't alter the rules that actually got printed onto the page of the sourcebook.
Sounds pretty simple to me. When it is being used as an axe, it's a black blade with all the bells and whistles. When it's being used as a firearm it is still technically a black blade, but none of the magus abilities work in that 'mode.' When used as a firearm it would be mechanically no different than having the weapon sheathed.
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Musket, Axe: This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.
It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon.
If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
I notice that no one cite the bolded part.
The axe musket is a double weapon for purpose of enchanting. Being a blackblade include a form of enchanting and a axe musket, being a double weapon isn't suitable for that specific form of enchanting.
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Musket, Axe: This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.
It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon.
If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.I notice that no one cite the bolded part.
The axe musket is a double weapon for purpose of enchanting. Being a blackblade include a form of enchanting and a axe musket, being a double weapon isn't suitable for that specific form of enchanting.
How do you mean?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't firearms say their size never changes their handedness? So even an undersized one would be two-handed and unable to be a blackblade.
What I find strange is that an Axe Musket apparently weighs less and does less damage than a standard Musket... So is that because the musket portion is smaller than a standard musket?
*EDIT*
Okay, so after looking at the artwork depicted in Ultimate Combat of the Axe Musket... It does indeed appear to be assumed a one-handed wield for the battleaxe portion. The weapon description says it's a double-weapon for masterwork and enhancement purposes. Also it's listed under "Two-Handed Firearms". These two items, would indicate to me that the Axe Musket would not be a feasible choice for PFS rules for a Blackblade.
Non-PFS rules, I'd allow it. Or... another option, it just call it a battleaxe and describe it as an Axe Musket... Done. You can always say the barrel was filled and capped with metal, thereby completely destroying any ability to be used as a firearm. Thus... you now have a really cool looking battleaxe.
Why is an Axe-Musket a Mustket "first and foremost"?
No other double weapon works that way.
A Gnome Hook Hammer is not a "hammer first" or "hammer second" weapon.
Why would this weapon be an exception?
Are we discussing RAW or what we think should be allowed? Would you let a two-bladed sword be a Black Blade? Do you think it's allowable by RAW?
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Pretty sure even if the firearm portion was considered a blackblade, it wouldn't get the bonuses from being one. If it's a double weapon, then only one side of it is affected by the bonuses: the one that's actually a valid target of them. So it'd be a +1 axe, but a normal (masterwork?) musket.
That is, more or less, how I would handle it.
Why is an Axe-Musket a Mustket "first and foremost"?
No other double weapon works that way.
A Gnome Hook Hammer is not a "hammer first" or "hammer second" weapon.
Why would this weapon be an exception?
I see it as a Musket before an axe due to the fact that's listed under the "Firearms" category. So, in my mind, I see it as a musket with an axe attached to it. That's just my opinion on the matter and some might see it primarily as an axe with a gun barrel in the handle.
My problem with it, it's that you potentially gain a free firearm at start, if your GM is too nice. If he isn't, then you won't have the benefit of your Black Blade before at the very least level 3 or 4.
Black Blades
A black blade is a particular form of intelligent weapon gained by a magus with the bladebound archetype. There are several ways a magus might gain this weapon. Sometimes it just appears among the magus's possessions, and its origin is a mystery. Other times the magus finds a black blade during an adventure or event of some kind. Sometimes a black blade is passed down generation to generation in an ongoing search for a magus who can unlock its true potential. A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. The magus chooses the blade's type upon gaining the blade, and once chosen, it can't be changed.
I don't think it is intended, and I will be hesitant to allow it (And I won't certainly give someone a axe musket at start). Still, because you need to wait to have it, and need to take an exotic weapon proficiency and other feats to use it efficiently, I could allow it if I'm in a good mood.
But I consider that the black blade powers only apply to the "battleaxe" side, as it need to be "a blade". And a missfire will make the firearm broken, and potentially destroy the weapon.
RAW.
A two bladed Sword is a two-handed melee weapon. Not a choice.
I am saying an Axe-Musket is an One-handed Melee weapon, and a two-handed firearm, and counts as both.
Do you have any evidence of that statement? I have not found it listed as a one handed Melee weapon anywhere. The weapon's description indicates it is a musket first with an axe head attached at the end of the barrel. It's a perfectly reasonable houserule but does not seem supported by RAW.
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It's in the description:
Statistics
Cost 1,600 gp Weight 6 lbs.
Damage 1d6 (small), 1d8 (medium); Critical x4; Range 30 ft.; Type B and P; Special — Misfire 1-2 (5 ft.); Capacity 1
Description
This short musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for the purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition. This is an early firearm.
A Battleaxe is an One-handed Melee weapon.
It's in the description:
Statistics
Cost 1,600 gp Weight 6 lbs.
Damage 1d6 (small), 1d8 (medium); Critical x4; Range 30 ft.; Type B and P; Special — Misfire 1-2 (5 ft.); Capacity 1
Description
This short musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for the purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition. This is an early firearm.A Battleaxe is an One-handed Melee weapon.
Yes but an Axe Musket is a two handed firearm and a double weapon. So if the axe half is eligible for a black blade then why not a two-bladed sword* or orc double axe*?
Edit: *by which I mean one sword or one axe half.
It's in the description:
Statistics
Cost 1,600 gp Weight 6 lbs.
Damage 1d6 (small), 1d8 (medium); Critical x4; Range 30 ft.; Type B and P; Special — Misfire 1-2 (5 ft.); Capacity 1
Description
This short musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for the purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition. This is an early firearm.A Battleaxe is an One-handed Melee weapon.
Yes but an Axe Musket is a two handed firearm and a double weapon. So if the axe half is eligible for a black blade then why not a two-bladed sword* or orc double axe*?
Edit: *by which I mean one sword or one axe half.
simply answered: its quite easy to enchant only a single side of a double weapon. we've been doing so for years, and their a many examples of specific items such as artifacts that have both sides enchanted entirely separate from each other. the problem lies in the fact that "normal" double weapons cannot be broken apart or wielded as only half of themselves. the axe musket, however, quite simply, can. incidentally, it cannot be wielded as a "traditional" double weapon can, showing that every once in a while the dev's actually DO put a bit of balance in the game.
my 2 cents: nothing is stopping the weapon from being a black blade., however, the user of such a weapon would need the EWP-(musket) feat to use it as a firearm. the firearm would however not receive the benefits of the bonus enchantments or the other cool things a black blade can do because as its been already stated, that it not the half of this particular double weapon that has received the enchantments.
It's in the description:
Statistics
Cost 1,600 gp Weight 6 lbs.
Damage 1d6 (small), 1d8 (medium); Critical x4; Range 30 ft.; Type B and P; Special — Misfire 1-2 (5 ft.); Capacity 1
Description
This short musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for the purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition. This is an early firearm.A Battleaxe is an One-handed Melee weapon.
Yes but an Axe Musket is a two handed firearm and a double weapon. So if the axe half is eligible for a black blade then why not a two-bladed sword* or orc double axe*?
Edit: *by which I mean one sword or one axe half.
simply answered: its quite easy to enchant only a single side of a double weapon. we've been doing so for years, and their a many examples of specific items such as artifacts that have both sides enchanted entirely separate from each other. the problem lies in the fact that "normal" double weapons cannot be broken apart or wielded as only half of themselves. the axe musket, however, quite simply, can. incidentally, it cannot be wielded as a "traditional" double weapon can, showing that every once in a while the dev's actually DO put a bit of balance in the game.
my 2 cents: nothing is stopping the weapon from being a black blade., however, the user of such a weapon would need the EWP-(musket) feat to use it as a firearm. the firearm would however not receive the benefits of the bonus enchantments or the other cool things a black blade can do because as its been already stated, that it not the half of this particular double...
You can use just one half of a double weapon as well. That doesn't stop it from being a two-handed weapon or make it eligible for being a black blade.
I have nothing against using an axe musket for a black blade (seems like a really cool idea). I just don't think it qualifies under the rules and this is the rules forum.
Considering that the Battleaxe's crit range makes it a pretty terrible Magus weapon anyway, I'd let it work.
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Once again, it's a one-handed slashing weapon.
Therefore, it works.
There are no other factors. As I have said before, the ability requires "a one-handed slashing weapon." The ability does not require "a one-handed slashing weapon which is not also a two-handed firearm."
A square is a rectangle. It also has equal-length-sides.
I tell you I require a rectangle, you can hand me a square and fulfill my requirement. Just because some rectangles are longer than they are tall, or are purple, or can be used as a firearm with two hands, doesn't mean you've failed my "give me a rectangle" test.
Once again, it's a one-handed slashing weapon.
Therefore, it works.
There are no other factors. As I have said before, the ability requires "a one-handed slashing weapon." The ability does not require "a one-handed slashing weapon which is not also a two-handed firearm."
A square is a rectangle. It also has equal-length-sides.
I tell you I require a rectangle, you can hand me a square and fulfill my requirement. Just because some rectangles are longer than they are tall, or are purple, or can be used as a firearm with two hands, doesn't mean you've failed my "give me a rectangle" test.
Again, this is the rules forum. Can you show me the written rule that says an axe musket is a one handed slashing weapon or a written rule that says it stops being a two handed firearm?
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Again, this is the rules forum. Can you show me the written rule that says an axe musket is a one handed slashing weapon
Sure.
This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel.
It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.
Battleaxe appears in the "one-handed" martial weapons table.
It deals Slashing damage.
or a written rule that says it stops being a two handed firearm?
Do you want me to read you the "square/rectangle" bit again?
It doesn't matter that it's a two-handed firearm. It's ALSO a one-handed slashing weapon. There is no ambiguity here...
at all.
Again, this is the rules forum. Can you show me the written rule that says an axe musket is a one handed slashing weaponSure.
This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel.
It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.
Battleaxe appears in the "one-handed" martial weapons table.
It deals Slashing damage.
or a written rule that says it stops being a two handed firearm?Do you want me to read you the "square/rectangle" bit again?
It doesn't matter that it's a two-handed firearm. It's ALSO a one-handed slashing weapon. There is no ambiguity here...
at all.
I suggest you look up discussions on the bastard sword. A weapon is what it is, even when it's something else. An axe musket is a two handed firearm that can be used as a battleaxe, but it never is a battleaxe.