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Hope more archetypes replace Maneuver Training. You're never going to make those DCs anyways and in Pathfinder, Full Attack> Absolutely any other option 99% of the time.
Martial Flexibility has great potential in the right hands. It's what fighters should have been able to do all along, instantly morph into the perfect tool for the job. Would be super awesome if it had more uses without a feat tax.
So is it like two extra uses or something?
Extra Martial Flexibility is Three uses.
EDIT: Please tell me that there is an FCB for extra uses too.
Gnomes get 1/4 extra uses as their FCB
Brawlers are solid, smart players will use them to amazing effect, getting the perfect feat to fit the situation. Base class wise you grab WF+PA+PS+CE and you face roll until you need to worry about saves. Then you get creative. But there so much flexibility. Just have decently balanced stat array, carry of copy of the combat feat list with you and your set. Need Fire resist? multi-into perfect style or one of the elemental fighting styles. Need to hit in the dark, grab blind fight. Can't melee? Grab throw anything, Point blank, and precise, and go to town with rock, branches, whatever is at handy. Need to win the jousting contest? No problem Mounted combat, ride by attack, and Spirited Charge. Can't get near the big dragon cause its got all the reach? Dodge, mobility, spring attack. Yeah those are all 3 feat combos but you can scale down easily.
Blind fight seems particularly good for someone focused on pummeling, since that '1 hit for your whole full attack' thing can work against you with concealment. But you don't always end up in darkness, so putting actual feats into blindfight could be questionable (at least when there are more routinely relevant stuff)
So is it like two extra uses or something?
Extra Martial Flexibility is Three uses.
EDIT: Please tell me that there is an FCB for extra uses too.Gnomes get 1/4 extra uses as their FCB
Hmm the FCB is a little irrelevant. It takes 16 levels of gnome to equal a human bonus feat.
So human brawler can get 43 uses and power attack by 20, 27 uses by 12, 15 uses by 6.
at 20 a brawler could give himself 43 feats + power attack at the same time for a minute.
I just think that is fun sounding.
Speaking of level 20... Improved Awesome Blow is kind of cool, but it basically never coming online ever is frustrating.
Didn't see it mentioned, but don't forget that during that minute of usage, you can change up your feat(s) on the fly, so you aren't locked into one feat(s) per combat minute.
at 20 a brawler could give himself 43 feats + power attack at the same time for a minute.
I just think that is fun sounding.
Wellp. Sounds like I'm gonna need to start requiring the completion of at least two years of law school at my tables.
Brawler's Cunning I will agree is a dumb ability, but not for the same reason you do.
Free feats I do not necessarily agree with, because that creates stupid level dips.
But being treated as meeting the ability prereqs when you clearly don't is a result of terrible game design with the point buy system, aka the devil.
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But being treated as meeting the ability prereqs when you clearly don't is a result of terrible game design with the point buy system, aka the devil.
You wanna run that by me again, minus the snide, plus detail?
Point buy is the devil.
The fact that the developers are now designing classes around having to deal with the point buy system proves that the system is flawed and that the game has changed from the first printing of the CRB.
The Swashbuckler and Brawler both have means of getting around the 13 INT requirement for combat feats, which is sad because the devs understand that creating MAD classes means players have to choose between taking feats to use their class features, or not having sufficient ability scores to use their class features.
All of this is not a problem in a system that is not governed by point buy, but classes are now being designed as if point buy was the only way to play the game and that makes me sad because I have never played at a table that used point buy because of this very reason.
Point buy is the devil.
The fact that the developers are now designing classes around having to deal with the point buy system proves that the system is flawed and that the game has changed from the first printing of the CRB.
The Swashbuckler and Brawler both have means of getting around the 13 INT requirement for combat feats, which is sad because the devs understand that creating MAD classes means players have to choose between taking feats to use their class features, or not having sufficient ability scores to use their class features.
All of this is not a problem in a system that is not governed by point buy, but classes are now being designed as if point buy was the only way to play the game and that makes me sad because I have never played at a table that used point buy because of this very reason.
I think reading that actually managed to hurt my soul a little. What form of stat generation are you using that doesn't have this issue? I mean, I could see elite array being a thing I suppose but it's not like rolling doesn't do this to people too. How in all nine various flaming and frozen hells is this point buy's fault and not a flaw PF inherited from 3.5?
Point buy is the devil.
The fact that the developers are now designing classes around having to deal with the point buy system proves that the system is flawed and that the game has changed from the first printing of the CRB.
The Swashbuckler and Brawler both have means of getting around the 13 INT requirement for combat feats, which is sad because the devs understand that creating MAD classes means players have to choose between taking feats to use their class features, or not having sufficient ability scores to use their class features.
All of this is not a problem in a system that is not governed by point buy, but classes are now being designed as if point buy was the only way to play the game and that makes me sad because I have never played at a table that used point buy because of this very reason.
I'd rather you talk about the brawler than try to advocate for your own personal stat generation system in a round about way.
Step 1: Call point buy devil
Step 2: People point out how rolling for stats is worse
Step 3: Get all incredulous that people assumed disliking point buy means you support random stats
Step 4: Propose your own method that I personally do not see as better than point buy in any sense.
The need for class features to get around feat prerequisites is more indicative of poor feat design than poor ability score generation methods.
Point buy is the devil.
That's not really "plus detail".
The fact that the developers are now designing classes around having to deal with the point buy system proves that the system is flawed
How is that now?
All of this is not a problem in a system that is not governed by point buy
Only if you're giving everyone 18s in every stat (or something similar).
but classes are now being designed as if point buy was the only way to play the game and that makes me sad because I have never played at a table that used point buy because of this very reason.
that sounds circular.
The need for class features to get around feat prerequisites is more indicative of poor feat design than poor ability score generation methods.
That's a fair argument, but it doesn't change the fact that point buy has changed the way the designers look at the game, and imo it's for the worse.
Honestly, stat generation is the least important part of the game, and the fact that the design philosophy has changed so much that it has become one of the most important is what makes me sad.
The 'X stat to Z roll instead of Y stat' abilities would be no where near as popular if not for the marginalizing point buy system.
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best part about this thread
I can scroll through all the words you all have written
then I can just go 'nope'
and then go back to working with an awesome new class
Point buy is the devil.That's not really "plus detail".
ignoring this one
The fact that the developers are now designing classes around having to deal with the point buy system proves that the system is flawedHow is that now?
Swashbucker's Finesse and Brawler's Cunning exist for the sole purpose of letting the player buy in a lower INT score so they can min-max their characters.
All of this is not a problem in a system that is not governed by point buyOnly if you're giving everyone 18s in every stat (or something similar).
You are incorrect, there are several ways to have stats other than point buy.
but classes are now being designed as if point buy was the only way to play the game and that makes me sad because I have never played at a table that used point buy because of this very reason.that sounds circular.
Because it is, when the game was designed, point buy was an optional rule, and it had its flaws that were clear because of reasons like this. Internet optimization boards, PFS, or some other thing has caused it to become so normal that the game is now designed as if there were no other way to play the game. We see more and more abilities to marginalize ability scores so that players who use the point buy system can play their character concepts as if players who don't use the system don't exist or don't matter, it's insulting.
ignoring this one
You shouldn't. Just calling something "The devil" isn't really a presentation of any argument.
Swashbucker's Finesse and Brawler's Cunning exist for the sole purpose of letting the player buy in a lower INT score so they can min-max their characters.
Or place their lowered roll score. Or place the weak end of the array. Not even sure what else to say here because the idea is so silly.
You are incorrect, there are several ways to have stats other than point buy.
which... had absolutely nothing to do with the point.
Because it is, when the game was designed, point buy was an optional rule, and it had its flaws that were clear because of reasons like this. Internet optimization boards, PFS, or some other thing has caused it to become so normal that the game is now designed as if there were no other way to play the game. We see more and more abilities to marginalize ability scores so that players who use the point buy system can play their character concepts as if players who don't use the system don't exist or don't matter, it's insulting.
No, what's insulting is you coming in here and screaming that everyone is having badwrongfun for using point buy while remaining entirely vague about why it's bad or what's better.
Nevermind that, again, the entire premise of the idea doesn't really follow.
No, what's insulting is you coming in here and screaming that everyone is having badwrongfun for using point buy while remaining entirely vague about why it's bad or what's better.
Nevermind that, again, the entire premise of the idea doesn't really follow.
"The game's design has changed to be based around the point buy system when originally it was never meant to be based on that system" is not stating the premise for my stance?
I'm being trolled...
EDIT: It would be different if the game was actually designed around the point buy system from the start, but it was not, and all of these are patches to fix that system.
"The game's design has changed to be based around the point buy system when originally it was never meant to be based on that system" is not stating the premise for my stance?
No. That's stating your presence. I'm just pointing out that it's an illogical one, since stating that Brawler's Cunning only exists so you don't need to spend points on it in Point Buy requires use to assume that point buy is the only character generation method where you won't necessarily have an extra 13 to put into int. Which is blatantly false.
I'm being trolled...
Honestly if I were to guess the guy telling people that they're playing with the devil because they use a system he doesn't like is closer to that.
its funny but im not sure how effective that would actually be, as youd never have more then 3 feats "working" on your character.3?!?!?!?
Human brawler can get 30 extra uses (assuming you can take it multiple times)
Feats aren't all that great, but if you can get a custom list for each encounter that is really nice.
hmmm except at level 20 where there is no limit you are right.
hmm you may want to grab some more base feats then to be able to build off them better, but the bonus feats can help with that which have vague requirements.
its funny but im not sure how effective that would actually be, as youd never have more then 3 feats "working" on your character.3?!?!?!?
Human brawler can get 30 extra uses (assuming you can take it multiple times)
Feats aren't all that great, but if you can get a custom list for each encounter that is really nice.
That still seems like you could trade out three feats for an extra 9 uses, and then just use those uses to fill in the three feats (along with the uses from the class).
It is like how Critical versatlity is better than any single critical feat since it can stand in for any of them, and then leave in the option of changing when you can't make the elementals bleed or blind the eyeless werebat-morlocks.
Overall, sounds like a good idea to me.
@marcus, ya i read the capstone, interesting stuff. and i agree while taking all feats as extra flexibility would be entertaining, definitly need to work out some base feats.
@lemeres, maybe im tired i keep reading your first sentence and its greek to me lol. i did just get out of work.
trade out 3 feats...as in? spend 3 feat slots on extra flexibility?
fill in what 3 feats?
god maybe im tired
Spend 3 feats on extra flexibility, and then use martial flexibility to pick any 3 feats you need.
With 9 extra usages (bringing you to a max 21 uses), it does not seem to hard to consistently use this ability.
You indicated that you can only have 3 uses going at once (don't own ACG, can't check). So spending more than 3 feats on this is a waste and means your build is short on feats. But with all the uses you get from 3 feats, it seems like it can work out well.
Yeah, I'd missed that the first couple of times I read it, too (even during the playtest). I only noticed it when I got my copy the other day, which is why I mentioned it.
Between that and the changes they implemented between v1 and v2 of the playtest (opening up the feat selection to *any* combat feat and not just certain ones), made the Brawler so much more versatile and interesting to me.
That said, I think it might be cool to have an archetype that combines the Brawler with a Gunslinger-like "grit" pool and lets him recharge his martial flexibility (albeit with a more limited range of feat selection or other mitigating factor).
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If you need to use martial flexibility in every fight, your character probably isn't very flexible.
If you want to do like Marcus is suggesting and built to get 40 something uses a day, then sure, use it every combat. You could also just take a bunch of feats to make you good at doing something, and then leave options open to cover your weaknesses. You just have to play more like a spellcaster and not use all your resources in every fight.
Unless you're in PFS, in which case you are only doing 2-4 encounters (maybe not even in the same day!), so why are you complaining about not having enough uses.
*puts on old man suspenders and holy symbol of Iomedae*
"These younguns with their fancy new classes don't know how hard it was back in the day for us paladins. One smite evil a day until 4th! Then two! Maybe more if you were one a them fancy Oath a Vengeance paladins. Why I remember whole scenarios without a single evil thing to smite! Or what about them times you would save it the whole adventure for the boss, just to find out he's not evil!"
No, what's insulting is you coming in here and screaming that everyone is having badwrongfun for using point buy while remaining entirely vague about why it's bad or what's better.
Nevermind that, again, the entire premise of the idea doesn't really follow.
"The game's design has changed to be based around the point buy system when originally it was never meant to be based on that system" is not stating the premise for my stance?
I'm being trolled...
EDIT: It would be different if the game was actually designed around the point buy system from the start, but it was not, and all of these are patches to fix that system.
Pathfinder had 15 point buy as the standard when it first started. Nothing has changed. They use it when designing adventures, and AP's.
The reason they drop the prereq for combat expertise is because many of us feel it is a useless tax feat for combat maneuvers. If it somehow made sense that you had to be smart in order to trip someone then it likely would not have been bypassed.
thankyou lemeres, you have helped my over stressed brain understand lol.
until level 20, you can only have up to 3 "temporary" feats from flexibility at a time. tho doing so burns 3 "uses" of the ability. tho as someone mentioned, the fact that you can during those 1 min duration uses change them freely...is incredibly liberating. being able to go blind fighting one round, to tripping the next, to getting over difficult terrain...all on those same 3 uses.
until that was pointed out (as i had missed it repeatedly when reading it) i thought you would have to spend 3 more uses to change the feats in combat...not so. brings a lot more longevity to it.
Well, yeah, you might not have to spend uses to switch feats... but my thought was to grab an entire feat chain with this ability.
Is it possible to grab blind fight with 1 use, then grab improved blind fight with a 2nd use, and then greater blind fight with a 3rd use? (picked these since the only other prerequisite is X ranks in perception, which you generally have anyway) so I am unsure about specifics.
Or are there rules against using martial versatility granted feats to qualify for feats via martial versatility? I lack the text (and I am unsure in how many different threads I've mentioned this, since I TOO am tired), so I lack the specifics on such limits.
If it is allowed, then grabbing an entire (situational) chain when you need it seems appealing. It would make feat taxes into much less of an issue (and heck, you might even take some common feat taxes like mobility just so you can open up more possibilities)
And wraithstrike, just because they changed how something worked doesn't mean it wasn't originally a good idea. Just remember crane wing as it was in the good old days- before poor GM's complaining about MoMS tore off its wings. Crane wing was not that bad- just have someone flanking (add 1-2 weak things to the fight), using TWF, natural attacks, etc could have dealt with the problem at low levels. And that higher levels, where it was made for, mostly mitigated it with iteratives. But no- NERF NOW. And thus, the whiners won the day.
it is indeed allowed lemeres.
Ah, good. So spending 3 feats so you have enough uses to splurge on a fight can be good.
Some days you have to fight in darkness. Other days, you have to grab a bow and shoot down flying enemies. Heck, grab a gun and just go for touch AC when that problem comes up! You could get EWP and some ranged feats, and then switch to amateur gunslinger when the thing blows up on you.
Or grab a dip into MoMS monk and then combine any styles you choose!
You are only restricted by your skill points and stats, for the most part.
Pathfinder had 15 point buy as the standard when it first started. Nothing has changed. They use it when designing adventures, and AP's.
The reason they drop the prereq for combat expertise is because many of us feel it is a useless tax feat for combat maneuvers. If it somehow made sense that you had to be smart in order to trip someone then it likely would not have been bypassed.
Standard: Roll 4d6, discard the lowest die result, and
add the three remaining results together. Record this total
and repeat the process until six numbers are generated.
Assign these totals to your ability scores as you see fit.
This method is less random than Classic and tends to
create characters with above-average ability scores
Pathfinder had 15 point buy as the standard when it first started. Nothing has changed. They use it when designing adventures, and AP's.
The reason they drop the prereq for combat expertise is because many of us feel it is a useless tax feat for combat maneuvers. If it somehow made sense that you had to be smart in order to trip someone then it likely would not have been bypassed.
Standard: Roll 4d6, discard the lowest die result, and
add the three remaining results together. Record this total
and repeat the process until six numbers are generated.
Assign these totals to your ability scores as you see fit.
This method is less random than Classic and tends to
create characters with above-average ability scores
Tell you what, why don't you start a thread for this and we can all cuss it & discuss it there.
Tell you what, why don't you start a thread for this and we can all cuss it & discuss it there.Pathfinder had 15 point buy as the standard when it first started. Nothing has changed. They use it when designing adventures, and AP's.
The reason they drop the prereq for combat expertise is because many of us feel it is a useless tax feat for combat maneuvers. If it somehow made sense that you had to be smart in order to trip someone then it likely would not have been bypassed.
Standard: Roll 4d6, discard the lowest die result, and
add the three remaining results together. Record this total
and repeat the process until six numbers are generated.
Assign these totals to your ability scores as you see fit.
This method is less random than Classic and tends to
create characters with above-average ability scores
I'm really not interested in continuing the discussion.
It's a quarrel I have with the way the direction the game is going, and now we can't pretend it doesn't exist because the classes are starting to be balanced around point buy. It was meant to be totally relevant to the current discussion until people started attacking me.
thankyou lemeres, you have helped my over stressed brain understand lol.
until level 20, you can only have up to 3 "temporary" feats from flexibility at a time. tho doing so burns 3 "uses" of the ability. tho as someone mentioned, the fact that you can during those 1 min duration uses change them freely...is incredibly liberating. being able to go blind fighting one round, to tripping the next, to getting over difficult terrain...all on those same 3 uses.
until that was pointed out (as i had missed it repeatedly when reading it) i thought you would have to spend 3 more uses to change the feats in combat...not so. brings a lot more longevity to it.
Do we have confirmation that it works that way? Here is the relevant text.
The brawler can use this ability again before the duration
expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with
another choice.
Also, do we know if the Brawler has a cap for how many Flexibility feats can be active at once. Ex: I use a move to take three feats this turn, and then another move to add three more feats on top of that. Obviously it would burn up usages but the language is a little vague.
As for not liking Maneuver training... why not just take Shield Champion? Replaces all that stuff with some really sexy range options, a boost to AC, and free shield champion.
Also, if I'm reading it right, you can basically now do any maneuver as a ranged attack as part of a ricochet. Even if you hate maneuvers you have to admit that's huge. If you take the Shield Slam line you can now bull rush without having to move yourself, and you can technically ricochet your shield to allow you to attack from any angle. Basically you just turned one maneuver into three that can be performed at range without sucking AoOs, WHILE INFLICTING DAMAGE AND HAVING MULTIPLE ATTACKS LEFT IN THE ROUND.
Honestly, I haven't had a problem with the brawler in my play with it. And no, its not because I played with one battle a day. It was because I realized that the flexibility is a limited resource, but not a resource I have to use every single battle to do anything.
So I built to be flexible, but at the same time, built to be able to perform well enough without it.
im aware of brawler archetype, i played it. its boring.
"oh but all you wanted to do was hit things" someone might say. yes and no. brawler doesnt provide the other half of what i aim for and nothing ever will probably, but i do supposed id rather be bored then frustrated at failing CM rolls or staring at maneuver training ability on my character sheet and being annoyed its there.
this is part of the reason i enjoyed bloodrager. i didnt just hit things, i could enlarge, move faster, move on surfaces i normally wouldnt, etc. it provided me options, but the options didnt suck.
...what did you want from the brawler class then? An unarmed spellcaster? Maybe a rage/smite/judgment mechanic?
I honestly want a summary of what you are looking for here. Please just list a set of mechanics you have seen on other classes that 'work' for you.
I dint think he knows what he wants...
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I'm sure RAI you can only have 1/2/3 instance of Martial Flexibility up. I'm pretty sure they didn't intend to brawler to be able to grab 30 feats at once until lvl 20. I'm also sure "The brawler can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice." means you can use another charge to replace the feat chosen before the duration us up, not that you can freely switch out the chosen feat for the duration without expending more charges. Paizo should probably stop hiring 17-year-old interns to do their editing.