So I've seen a few posts in some of the ACG threads talking about how strong people though the bloodrager is.
Anyone have a reason why? I can't see much to excite me looking through it myself.
Yeah, AncientSpark nails it on the head. I think the Primalist part is what actually frustrated me. Not getting rage powers seemed like it would help somewhat with what looked like straight power-creep, but the archetype removes that as an option where you can skip out on a weaker bloodline power in exchange for two rage powers. Sure, you get things online only every four levels (so usually two levels behind the barbarian) but that's ok, cuz you have spells, rage, and you can add Arcane Strike to the super fun new Reckless Rage feat. Letting Bloodrage count as normal rage for feats and prereqs might turn out to be a mistake...
They're a really strong class. They won't replace barbarians for a lot of people, and especially not for certain builds or flavorful options, but they definitely have outshining potential.
Is there any reason to not take Primalist? I don't see any downsides, just options. Kind of like Qinggong monk.
I guess it doesn't stack with all archetypes, but if you don't have one of those there is no reason to not take it.
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The Bloodrager is strong because he always eats his Cheerios with Protein.
Is there any reason to not take Primalist? I don't see any downsides, just options. Kind of like Qinggong monk.
I guess it doesn't stack with all archetypes, but if you don't have one of those there is no reason to not take it.
Yeah, I mean in my campaigns I let any players that want to play monks automatically just be Qinggong. There's no reason not to be, and they can swap out abilities they don't want for things they do, which is acceptable to me. Same thing here. If you're just going vanilla BR might as well also be a Primalist and, if the mood catches you and you don't want, like, energy resistance or whatever, take two rage powers to go with your newfound ability to cast spells!
A Primalist Elemental (Air) Bloodrager can get fly and pounce in-class. So uh, there's that.
I'm less concerned than I would be because an Alchemist can already do that. The Primalist does seem... really unnecessary, especially because most of the core Bloodrager options are super cool, but it's not exactly the worst thing in the game (hell, not even the worst thing in the book).
On the whole I really like all the new stuff. The Bloodrager looks pretty fun, and having it along with Magus, Inquisitor, and Warpriest gives a good number of options. I do think that Magus archetype that does Bloodrager things looks funky; I'll have to reread it but on first glance it seemed a little underwhelming...
Also, jeez, can I just say how annoyed I am with EVERY dang spell being sorcerer/wizard? Really diminishes the ability for cool classes like witch and shaman to have unique spells that only they can do because they approach magic differently. And then a spell like crimson confession being on their list and not the Inquisitor's? What?! It's, like, literally the caught red-handed spell. And on that note, Inquisitor, Bloodrager and Magus really should get more fun spells unique to them. My biggest eyebrow raises so far haven't been for the martial classes, which seem really solid and like they'd be a blast to play; but JEEZ do they keep giving wizards love they really don't need.
I'm putting together a Bloodrager guide right now and I'm starting to get really annoyed at the Primalist. I'm finding that I have to rate a lot of 12th level powers lower than they should be just because their existence interferes with getting Greater Beast Totem. Abyssal Bloodrage, for example, is a highlight of the bloodline but really isn't better than full attacking on a charge...
Well you can always Pummeling Charge. Three feats sucks but it gets you pounce and awesome crit fishing along the way.
I don't know if you'd really have the feats for that... The main draw of the Abyssal bloodline is that you can enlarge yourself as one of the outsider races. I think it's best for a Tiefling natural attacker, as anyone else who wants to get bigger is going to be much better off as an Aberrant. It doesn't help that the Abyssal feats kinda suck and don't have anything that you'd want if you weren't getting them for free.
I'm putting together a Bloodrager guide right now and I'm starting to get really annoyed at the Primalist. I'm finding that I have to rate a lot of 12th level powers lower than they should be just because their existence interferes with getting Greater Beast Totem. Abyssal Bloodrage, for example, is a highlight of the bloodline but really isn't better than full attacking on a charge...
I don't think I've ever built a barbarian around beast totem, though I only DM so I'm not usually making characters to play... I did just build a bloodrager with the Aberrant line to tinker, though, and with a reach weapon and enlarge person it might as well have pounce and full-attack. Not terribly versatile and relies on a spell, but it's just stuff the barbarian can't get until greater beast totem that this character is doing semi-well just at level 4.
Yeah, that's nutty. A lot of the Bloodrager stuff does seem like the power of math. And that archetype with the Metamagic stuff for rage rounds is pretty cool... Unless I'm reading it wrong, you can start firing off toppling magic missiles at level 5 while closing in to melee range, or to do some desperate crowd control to keep dudes off your backline, among other things. The deeper I delve in the more shenanigans I find.
two level moms dip (for 1st and 3rd pummeling style feats) into abyssal/arcane/destined primalist bloodrager has a lot of potential.
question: does trading a BR ability for rage powers allow you to start taking the extra rage power feats? because if so i could see that spiraling out of control quickly.
question 2: because you're a barbarian hybrid class, can you take barbarian FCBs? because trading out a bloodline ability for witch hunter + superstition's crazy high save boost (with human FCB) seems more than worth it.
then again for a BR's feats you'd want power attack, arcane strike, reckless rage, etc. still leaving you plenty to spend on extra rage power if that door is now open.
damn you MOMS...always sneaking into awesome optomizations
quick! nerf the monk more (and praise the exploiter wizard for his unique and perfect grasp of game balance)!
agreed hrothdane, but bane is still a thing as well:
Tiefling (demon-spawn) Bloodrager (abyssal bloodline) 12 / Fighter (two-handed fighter) 7 / Oracle (lore/lame) 1
-Scaled Skin racial feature taken
Str 35 (10pts +2 race +5 level +6 belt +6 EH) / 48 (+11 morale +2 size)
Dex 18 (2pts +6 belt) / 16 (-2 size)
Con 20 (5pts +6 belt) / 31 (+11 morale)
Int 14 (-2 race +6 headband)
Wis 14 (-2pts +6 headband)
Cha 22 (5pts +2 race +6 headband)
traits:
-Magical Knack (bloodrager)
-Unnatural Presence
revelations:
-Sidestep Secret
feats:
1 - Power Attack
3 - Skill Focus (knowledge: planes)
4 - Eschew Materials (br4)
5 - Eldritch heritage (abyssal: claws)
6 - Intimidating Prowess (br6)
7 - Furious Focus
9 - Cornugon Smash, Toughness (br9)
11 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (abyssal: strength of the abyss)
12 - Great Fortitude (br12)
13 - Weapon Focus (falchion), Lunge (f1)
14 - Dazing Assault (f2)
15 - Dazzling Display
16 - Staggering Critical (DC 39) (f4)
17 - Shatter Defenses
18 - Dreadful Carnage(f6)
19 - Raging Vitality
HP: 314 / 514 (rage) (d10 (5.5avg) x12 + d12 (6.5 avg) +5 con +1 toughness / +11 rage)
BAB: +19/19/+14/+9/+4 (with haste)
CMB/CMD: 39/52
AC: 38 (10 base +6 cha +11 armor +9 natural +5 deflection +1 haste +1 insight -4 rage -1 size)
Saves: 33/22/22 (13/6/8 base +5a resist +1a competence +4a morale +10/6/2 stat +2w rage)
Attack: +58*/54/+49/+44/+39 (19 BAB +19 str +7 enhancement +1 WF +4 morale +1 competence +2 bane +2 haste +3 gloves -1 size -4 PA) * - PA doesn’t apply to 1st 2H attack/round
Damage: 70 avg (2d4 base (5 avg) +36 2hstr +7 enhancement +12 PA +3 gloves +2d6 bane (7 avg))
-power attacking or dropping an enemy gives a free intimidate check to demoralize (+48 (23 ranks/class, 6 cha, 19 str), works on animals and vermin as well as usual targets)
-attack flat-footed AC of shaken enemies (see: everyone)
-sickens shaken enemies (for a total of -4 attack/saves/skills/ability checks and -2 damage between the two) when you hit them
-30% crit chance, inflicts staggered condition (DC39)
-can take a -5 to hit to inflict the dazed status as well (DC ??)
-CL14 Bloodrager casting
-CL1 Oracle casting
-immune to fatigue
-no speed reduction from encumbrance or armor
of course this is using the old playtest BR and needs to be double-checked against the current BR, as long as it keeps demonic bulk and the STR bonus it's golden.
you could even tack on primalist and trade the 8th, 16th, and 20th-level bloodline powers for 6 rage powers (lets say... the beast totem line and superstition/witch hunter/spell sunder).
i dont know whether to be frustrated or thankful that with the BR 12 req for the abyssal str boost and the 2HF 7 req for backswing cant be combined with a 2-level MoMS dip for prereq-free pummeling style and pummeling charge (since that would put you at 21 levels total).
I dislike how Paizo sucks at balancing... Can't complain too much about classes because it's not easy coming out based on D&D. But Bloodline is not that hard. Now The most optimal bloodlines are Arcane ,Aberrant and Distined because there didn't think it through. Let Abyssal have Claws and Demonic Resistance even outside of bloodrage would make it more useful. Celestial should be able to use Angelic Attacks and Wings Heaven outside of rage. Draconic should be allow to have Wings without Bloodrage and have Flyby Attack instead Cleave for bloodline feat. Allow Elemental to have their resistance and movement without rage and increase the movement speed of elements other than air. Fey should have many things active even other of bloodrage other than Quickling bloodrage. Infernal should have dark wings all the time and Undead should have death's gift active all the time. That will now make it balance as some bloodlines survive better without bloodrage and can be more passive while other bloodlines are stronger with bloodrage so need to be more active.
Bloodrager is strong, but only when bloodrage. Yet still not as good as paladin or ranger which many would hoped for. If they balanced it better it could be awesome. Paladin can aura all the time, I don't see why bloodragers can have some of their bloodline powers actives without bloodrage. If they could, then they are truly strong.
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Have you actually seen an abyssal bloodrager in action? It's awesome. Seriously, it's much better in practice than it looks on paper.
It's not just about the claws, although those are perfectly fine. It's mostly about the free Enlarge. Get a polearm. You have Uncanny Dodge. Combat starts, enemies try to close in, WHACK. On your turn, Rage and expand in a direction of your choice (which is like a free additional 5ft. step) and double your reach. The amount of battlefield control you can do with Combat Reflexes is quite ridiculous.
I regularly play a paladin alongside a friend's abyssal bloodrager in PFS (we've played together across levels 4-9 so far). My AC is double his, but I get hit a lot more, because he doesn't have to come closer than 20ft to inflict carnage. And I need Smite to keep up with his damage and to-hit. Seriously, in practice the abyssal bloodrager isn't behind the paladin.
lol <3.
its a valid point, its so annoying that they put a crappy t2 feat in between two awesome feats. moms away!
what feat is between the two awesome ones?
two level moms dip (for 1st and 3rd pummeling style feats) into abyssal/arcane/destined primalist bloodrager has a lot of potential.
question: does trading a BR ability for rage powers allow you to start taking the extra rage power feats? because if so i could see that spiraling out of control quickly.
question 2: because you're a barbarian hybrid class, can you take barbarian FCBs? because trading out a bloodline ability for witch hunter + superstition's crazy high save boost (with human FCB) seems more than worth it.
then again for a BR's feats you'd want power attack, arcane strike, reckless rage, etc. still leaving you plenty to spend on extra rage power if that door is now open.
It says in the primalist archtype that you cannot take extra rage power.
There is nothing to suggest you can take barbarian FCBs.Edit: and using unarmed attacks is kind of limiting on a bloodrager even if you can get superpounce.
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Yeah, AncientSpark nails it on the head. I think the Primalist part is what actually frustrated me. Not getting rage powers seemed like it would help somewhat with what looked like straight power-creep, but the archetype removes that as an option where you can skip out on a weaker bloodline power in exchange for two rage powers. Sure, you get things online only every four levels (so usually two levels behind the barbarian) but that's ok, cuz you have spells, rage, and you can add Arcane Strike to the super fun new Reckless Rage feat. Letting Bloodrage count as normal rage for feats and prereqs might turn out to be a mistake...
They're a really strong class. They won't replace barbarians for a lot of people, and especially not for certain builds or flavorful options, but they definitely have outshining potential.
Eh. The inability to take Extra Rage Power really hurts. As does the lack of the Human FCB to Superstition. The necessity of taking a reasonable Charisma is also a serious disadvantage mechanically, They also lack any good equivalent to Invulnerable Rager, or the archetypes to make their Rage Dex-based.
So...there are certainly reasons to take Bloodrager, but Rage-power heavy builds (like anything using Spell Sunder + Strength Surge), or DR based builds (both of which are very good builds) you're still better off going Barbarian. Likewise, Dex-based builds (whether fully, or just using it for Combat Reflexes with Come And Get Me) definitely do better as Barbarian builds.
And Human (or half-human) Barbarians taking advantage of their racial FC bonus are still way better in terms of Saves than any non-Destined Bloodragers (and even with Destined, only Primalists who grab Superstition equal them).