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I still prefer a counter-spelling system that isn't the load of garbage it was previously. At least now you aren't potentially losing a turn to try and counter a spell with less than 50% success on average and it's actually possible to have one of those epic spell battles that's always portrayed in books, movies, television, etc.
Surely you understand how implementing an effective counterspelling system for only a single class + one archetype brings imbalance to the whole system. I'm all for rethinking the counterspell mechanics, but this fixes nothing.
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I still prefer a counter-spelling system that isn't the load of garbage it was previously. At least now you aren't potentially losing a turn to try and counter a spell with less than 50% success on average and it's actually possible to have one of those epic spell battles that's always portrayed in books, movies, television, etc.Surely you understand how implementing an effective counterspelling system for only a single class + one archetype brings imbalance to the whole system. I'm all for rethinking the counterspell mechanics, but this fixes nothing.
Sure it does. There's now one class who can use a painfully small pool of resources to actually utilize the counter-spell mechanic.
The archetype is probably over the top, but without looking at it (my book's not available at the moment) I can't say with certainty whether or not what they're giving up (if anything) is equivalent to the power gain.
In my experience so far, a counter-spelling arcanist runs out of resources fast. I'll probably have to do a little digging when I get home and see how much of that ability can be exploited by other classes and what that archetype looks like though.
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How does burning an Inspiration point allow you to use Studied Strike on an opponent for a second time in 24 hours? I can't find anything in the book about that.
It's at the end of Studied Combat. Study them again to strike again!
An investigator can only have one target of studied combat at a time, and once a creature has become the target of an investigator’s studied combat, he cannot become the target of the same investigator’s studied combat again for 24 hours unless the investigator expends one use of inspiration when taking the move action to use this ability.
I imagine Quick Study allows this to be done as a swift action, although with the typo its text, it's arguably unclear.
Guys I think we are getting off topic. Just a little.
Arcanist: I am not a fan of its fluff. It feels like Wizard fluff. I don't comprehend how this class is somehow different from a wizard in setting. Mechanically, this class is a combo of two of the most similar classes in the game. To me, it did not belong in the book. It is very strong though, and honestly looks funner than a wizard. If anything, I'd encourage anyone who wants to play a wizard to use this class instead because I think they'd have more fun. I don't like this class at all, but it is a very effective class. I just wish some of its arcane exploits did not exist. 7/10
Bloodrager: Like a sorcerer, but instead of their bloodline granting them mighty spellcasting, it granted them physical might. This is cool. The bloodlines have been rebalanced to be more fair. 8/10
Brawler: Ended up much better than I expected between the playtest version 2 and the release. Great feat support too. Definitely a good addition to the game, and everything I wanted the unarmed fighter archetype to be and more. 7/10
Hunter: For what could have been the natural counterpart to the summoner, this one was botched. The hunter was supposed to fight well, but lacks class features that buff its accuracy that are needed. The animal companion is supposed to be a killer, but animal focus provides less powerful benefits than favored enemy. Instead of getting a killer team, you get a team that gets less effective as they level up because their attack bonus scales slower than the average enemy's AC. So much potential. 5/10
Investigator: One of my personal favorites, but perhaps out of place in Pathfinder. Incredible out of combat. Probably better than a rogue in combat (need to test). I was disappointed to discover studied combat needed feats to be useful at a range. Ranged combat is already feat intensive, so I guess it was not meant to be. 6/10 Only rated so low because I doubt it can be used to its full potential in most games. In a game less focused on combat, this guy jumps to a solid 9
Shaman: The spell list is not as strong as I suspected. This is actually a good thing to me. Both the Shaman and the Witch have specialized spell lists that often don't allow them to overshadow other players. Incredibly well designed class and very modular. Wandering spirit is such a cool ability too. 8/10
Skald: One of the coolest classes to come out of the book. I have been wanting a mechanically sound bardbarian for a long time. The ragesong abilities are a lot of fun, and potentially incredibly cool. Spell kenning suprised me in that is was a very strong ability, but it does not manage to overpower the Skald. Definitely a class I can't wait to play. 9/10
Slayer: A replacement for rogues, and fighters who do not wear heavy armor. As a DM, this will be a very used class. As a player? I want to try a few of its archetypes. Slayer talents feel very solidly built. Studied target is a great mechanic too, and I prefer it over favored enemy. Altogether, this is the martial I have always wanted. 9/10
Swashbuckler: Almost the other martial I have always wanted. Between the Swashbuckler and the Slayer, I feel that the rogue will rarely see my table again. The execution of the Swashbuckler could have been better. I like most of the class, but I feel as if something is missing. Using charisma as intelligence for feats though? Great idea. 6/10
Warpriest: For sure, this is not the warpriest that everyone wanted. Therefore, I will not judge it in comparison to what everyone wanted, but as its own class. Medium BaB and 6/9 spellcasting? Probably a good sign. I am peeved that you have to spend a fervor to activate sacred armor and sacred weapon at the same time and that sacred weapon is in rounds/level. Fervor is a cool mechanic. Skill points are bad though. Not a bad class overall, but the player really needs to know their stuff to get it working properly. 7/10
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I keep finding it crazy that the Hunter gets rated lower than other classe that he has so much better action economy and potential then, but maybe I just need to accept that his power will not be realized here, but at the table.
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I mean come on people, his pet gets an ability that was intended to replace Ranger spellcasting practically for free, with what appears to be unlimited use (strong even if that turns out to get FAQ'd), and right from 1st level. He also got a Teamwork ability that actually shares all of his Teamwork feats, both he and his mount have access to Evasion (amongst other buffs from their Focus) right from first level, and a spell-list chock full of great buffs (if he wanted to do the Amiri thing he could swing a 4d8 greatsword at 1st level with lead blades), and none of that even touches the crazy s$$@ you can do with the new feats presented in the ACG.
Ah, well, time will tell I suppose...
I keep finding it crazy that the Hunter gets rated lower than other classe that he has so much better action economy and potential then, but maybe I just need to accept that his power will not be realized here, but at the table.
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I mean come on people, his pet gets an ability that was intended to replace Ranger spellcasting practically for free, with what appears to be unlimited use (strong even if that turns out to get FAQ'd), and right from 1st level. He also got a Teamwork ability that actually shares all of his Teamwork feats, both he and his mount have access to Evasion (amongst other buffs from their Focus) right from first level, and a spell-list chock full of great buffs (if he wanted to do the Amiri thing he could swing a 4d8 greatsword at 1st level with lead blades), and none of that even touches the crazy s*&@ you can do with the new feats presented in the ACG.
Ah, well, time will tell I suppose...
Well if it makes you feel any better, I was writing my review before any of your posts showed up in this thread. I probably would have reconsidered the math if I saw your post. It took me a while to write because I was eating and typing all at the same time. I can see where you are coming from, and I probably should play a hunter before I make judgements like that.
Presently I think the best Hunter is the archetype that gets Wildshape and throws Fido in the garbage.I would be happy to be wrong about the Hunter, honest to god I would love to be wrong.
If I get a chance I'll even set up a game with a Ranger and Hunter to see how their strengths compare.
If you can prove us wrong and show just how cool and awesome a Hunter can be I would be overjoyed! Please find some way to prove us wrong.
I suspect the Hunter is a very strong class through the first ten levels but that 2/3 BAB and lack of a truly tailored spell list is going to hurt when the Ranger spells start running out.
The animal companion gaining Skirmisher tricks is potentially powerful (especially depending based on who's wisdom modifier it's based upon) but I still think that the 5th and 6th level spells aren't going to interact well with how most people are going to approach the class.
I ended up being really underwhelmed by wildshape hunter. You give up a lot for the ability to aspect yourself and get a pretty weak wildshape and I'm not sure you really earn it all back.
And actually reading the class features I wish that instead of just slapping on double nerfed wildshape they'd done more with the "adopt the aspects to yourself" thing, since that fluff actually seemed kind of cool.
Also the more I look at the hunter the more it feels like a variant summoner to me.
Which oddly lines up. Summoner (apparently, never saw this on my forums) was underappreciated at launch and Synthesist is historically viewed as incredibly strong (even though it's arguably quite a bit weaker than baseline)... Hunter is considered underwhelming but has a lot of cool tricks, wildshape variant preferred but probably not worth the action economy loss.
Of course, the hunter not having his own custom spell list really hurts, since many of the other sixth level casters get access to one or two 8ths/9ths somwehere on their list.
Totally unrelated, but the fact that you can ritually sacrifice your pet for buffs seems silly.
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what does divine protection do?Add your Charisma bonus as an untyped bonus to all saving throws. Requires 5 ranks in Knowledge: Religion, 2nd level Divine Spells, and (just in case you wanted to qualify for this with an SLA), a Domain, Mystery, or Blessing class feature.
I don't know what that one guy was talking about. People are going to build around this feat, even using a race with a Divine SLA and dipping a level of (say) Cleric to qualify.
LOL, no one is going to build around this feat.
dazing spell is a feat you build around.
power attack is a feat you build around.
combat expertise + manuver feat chain are feats you build around.
prefered spell is a feat you build around.no oracle or cleric is going build around this feat. no martial class is going build around this feat.
I keep being told that I need to be constructive. The only way I can think to do that in this case is: If you're a new player, please don't listen to this person at all. They're obviously just as new as you are, but where you read to learn, they read to argue a losing cause.
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Presently I think the best Hunter is the archetype that gets Wildshape and throws Fido in the garbage.I would be happy to be wrong about the Hunter, honest to god I would love to be wrong.
If I get a chance I'll even set up a game with a Ranger and Hunter to see how their strengths compare.
If you can prove us wrong and show just how cool and awesome a Hunter can be I would be overjoyed! Please find some way to prove us wrong.
Books not in front of me, but I believe that it's at 3rd level they pick either Outflank or Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat, so if I wanted to give enemies a really bad day while up close and personal, I'd probably go-
Human Hunter 20 point buy
STR 16 (14+2 racial) DEX 14 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 14 CHA 10
Feats:
1st- Precise Strike, Combat Reflexes
3rd- Outflank (bonus), Power Attack
My animal focus will either be a stat booster for me or the Mouse for evasion. My pet gets a stat boost and knows Aiding Attack and Tangling Attack as tricks pulled from the Skirmisher list. If I'm recalling their proficiencies correctly, my weapon of choice would probably be a glaive-guisarme, otherwise a longspear. If possible, I cast lead blades pre-combat to boost my damage die to 2d8. My companion opens up with Tangling Attack to lock the enemy down, I move in to flanking with a +8 to-hit dealing 2d8+7+1d6. Next round, my companion also has an additional +4 to-hit and +1d6 damage and uses Aiding Attack, boosting my to-hit, including Power Attack penalties, to +10. I've got two AoOs to take against any opponents trying to save the poor bastard I'm murdering.
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what does divine protection do?+Charsima to all saves. Requires Know:R 5 and access to second level divine spells.
Actually I'm playing a nature oracle in my next game specifically because of this feat. If I can get her turned into a lich I'll get +charisma to everything except physical attacks and skills. Which is pretty cool and silly.ask yourself this question is anyone going to play an oracle because of this feat? the answer is no.
Well s*@% my life oracle, invulnerable rager, rage prophet just blew the doors off this game with Devine protection lol.
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The animal companion gaining Skirmisher tricks is potentially powerful (especially depending based on who's wisdom modifier it's based upon) but I still think that the 5th and 6th level spells aren't going to interact well with how most people are going to approach the class.
I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like WIS is an issue. The pet appears to learn Skirmisher tricks as Handle Animal tricks, so no daily limit.
Some of the exploits are crazy good, like counterspelling as an immediate actionI personally haven't found the counterspell exploit to be even passably good versus crazy good. My arcanist is 8th level.
Counterspell (Su): By expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir, the arcanist can attempt to counter a spell as it is being cast. She must identify the spell being cast as normal. If she successfully does so, the arcanist can attempt to counter the spell as an immediate action and by expending an available arcanist spell slot of a level at least one higher than the level of the spell being cast. To counterspell, the arcanist must attempt a dispel check as if using dispel magic.To date, my arcanist has squared off against several wizards (both BBEG and non-BBEG).
Recent examples:
#1) While 6th level, faced a 6th level wizard hammering the party with lightning bolt. Sadly, didn't have 4th level spell slots to use here. Combat was over before the wizard even cast a 2nd level spell.
#2) While 7th level, faced an 11th level evoker. Party was being hit by chain lightning, quickened burning hands, ice storm and silent lightning. Sadly, didn't have a 5th level spell slot to counter any of the 4th-6th level spells flung at us.
I can probably go through a half-dozen other examples where my arcanist squared off against spellcasters. I believe the only thing I could have counterspelled to date may have been some magic missiles, where it wasn't really a big deal to have done so.
Requiring a higher level spell when you're behind the curve on spell level and you are regularly pitted against spellcaster BBEGs that will exceed your level by 3-4 sadly means not a lot of counterspelling. For this reason, I don't recommend the counterspell exploit in level 1-10 play.
The thing is what about monsters with spellcasting capabilities? Everyone always says they want more bestiaries (I for one don't) and there are plenty of monsters that are equal to or higher CR than the party will be that can cast spells but due to their monsters statistics, the spells they cast will be of a level the arcanist can cast. You can't only compare the counterspelling to enemy wizards. You have to think about how it will work against monsters, sorcerers, and even other arcanists.
The arcanist was the class when this book was first announced that I was most interested in and most concerned about. When the playtests came out, my fears were confirmed. After the arcanist preview, many people warned that this class was too stupid powerful, and other thought they were stupid since the full version of the class hadn't come out yet. Now that it has, if you were part of the latter group you can now see that our concerns were valid.
I for one have banned this class from all games I run and urge other gms to do the same. If you wanna keep the arcanist, I say change all other casters (and I mean ALL) to cast similar tothe arcanist to help balance things out a bit, although the exploits are stupid broken too. As well as the based ability to increase a spells DC or your caster level.
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The animal companion gaining Skirmisher tricks is potentially powerful (especially depending based on who's wisdom modifier it's based upon) but I still think that the 5th and 6th level spells aren't going to interact well with how most people are going to approach the class.I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like WIS is an issue. The pet appears to learn Skirmisher tricks as Handle Animal tricks, so no daily limit.
Well that would be something wouldn't it.
Except a lot of the skirmisher tricks are based on enchancing the action economy of an animal companion, but the companion is actually learning the tricks so how does that apply? You'd think an aspect of a class that duplicate the mechanic an entire archetype is based around would be more prominently displayed and would have enough language to clarify how such an addition is suppposed to work when those abilities are applied to the companion instead of the PC.
Ikarinokami is right in a sense. I don't think people will "build around" Divine Protection. I think it's such a powerful feat that if you have 14 or more charisma you'll just find a way to take it. What you're trying to do with your build is irrelevant, with high charisma it's as automatic of a pick as Power Attack is for a full BAB class.
As for the main topic, I'm not going to go through and review every class (I didn't even read the full casters) but I'd like to point out that I'm really pleasantly surprised with the Bloodrager. All of the bloodlines have interesting tricks and are things I can make a build out of; I don't see any that I look at and think, "there is no way I'd ever take this".
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Sorry, I was away, so I couldn't respond on time to you guys. I'll do my best to catch up, although I'll keep it short, its's 03:00 a.m. here in Germany at the moment. ^^
I think you're under-rating the bloodrager and skald a bit. The bloodrager is, without a doubt, one of the most powerful classes ever created. I don't need a single spell from the spellcasting section other than ablative barrier (to put it on par with a barbarian) in order to break the hell out of it. The real power is in the bloodlines. I'd give it a 9 or 9.5.
The skald is definitely underpowered compared to the standard optimizer classes, but has its place. It's a lot better than a bard, and a very capable melee combatant. All I have to say is that at 15th level my ENTIRE PARTY just got 4 strength, 45 extra hit points, 2 AC, and pounce. I'd go with a 7 here.
I think we can put this down to personal preference. I talked about the Skald with two players of my group and one of them reminded me that even in a melee heavy party, a good number of them will still be spellcasters.
What about studied strike is a trap btw? I don't have the ACG yet, but I was under the impression the debilities go off whenever studied strike hits..s o you get teh damage and the status debuff.?
or are you refering to it only occuring once per bad guy per fight (baring inspiration spending I assume)?
It's only a one-time damage bonus, which forces you to spend Inspiration and another action to get it onto the target again. Overall, it seems a bit sub-standard, but then again the class itself doesn't seem to lend itself to heavy damage builds. Although I could be wrong there, I'm sure someone can build the Mr. Hyde with the right combination of extracts and discoveries.
i was enjoying this post, then i saw the divine protection feat hyperbole. the feat is ok. if that feat should be erased, then power attack should be removed from the game, because it is bar none the most powerful feat in the game period and exponentially more powerful and game changing than divine protection.
No. Seriously, no. Divine Protection gives CHA on saves to a class like the Oracle, which already could get CHA on AC and initiative. You can easily get something like CHA 28 with such a character and the bonus stacks with every other method to increase your saves. It's broken as hell. Divine Grace was barely okay because it was on the class with the greatest roleplaying opportunity cost. Giving it to three other classes (plus archetypes of more classes) is way too much.
Requiring a higher level spell when you're behind the curve on spell level and you are regularly pitted against spellcaster BBEGs that will exceed your level by 3-4 sadly means not a lot of counterspelling. For this reason, I don't recommend the counterspell exploit in level 1-10 play.
Good advice. I see it becoming much more powerful after level 11, though.
ask yourself this question is anyone going to play an oracle because of this feat? the answer is no. the feat is ok, there is nothing special about, except people the omg, they stole paladin stuff.
I'm pretty sure the guy in my group who was constantly getting one level of lore Oracles because of the crazy bonus they get (CHA instead of DEX for AC and other stuff) would disagree. I had to explicitly ask him to stop making the same powergaming move.
LOL, no one is going to build around this feat.dazing spell is a feat you build around.
power attack is a feat you build around.
combat expertise + manuver feat chain are feats you build around.
prefered spell is a feat you build around.no oracle or cleric is going build around this feat. no martial class is going build around this feat.
Your lack of system mastery disturbs me.
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that he doesn't have good buffing spells, since he has the full spread of Ranger spells much earlier than the Ranger, and all of the Druid spells up to 6, with many of the spells gained much earlier in the game than either parent class, and in some cases any class, can gain them.
He does not have access to: Haste, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Good Hope, Blessing of Fervor, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Bless, Prayer. That is the kind of buffing spells I am talking about.
Stuff like Lead Blades/Gravity Bow is nice, but if you can't hit anything because of your 3/4 BAB and because you are more than a bit MAD, then they are of no use. I guess melee Hunters will benefit from the increased attack bonuses from their pets you were talking about, but ranged Hunters will have it pretty bad.
Also, could we get a little bit more back on topic? ^^ The Hunter stuff probably should get its own thread, where you guys can do math and all that. Anyway, I'm off to bed, before the sun comes up or anything similarly silly. :p
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I haven't been able to look at the ACG yet, but... What is with all this fear concerning the new stuff? Seriously. I've been reading up vast majority of these ACG posts, and I just gotta say.
If you're worried about it, let it in bit by bit on the condition it'll be retired if it gets too imbalancing, or house ruled. That way, you can actually see what it seems like IN GAME, rather than read it, scream "OMG!" and assume that it's totally broken... Without seeing it in play first.
Sorry if that sounded offensive, or if anyone took it offensively, but that's seriously a lot of what I'm seeing in response to the ACG. Mostly the Arcanist, I'll admit, but some other stuff as well.
What ever happened to PLAYING it, and THEN judging it? Or am I just too old school for these new-fangled players?
Seriously... Everyone's group is different. What's broke at your table may be sub par at someone else's.
Sry for the venting, just getting tired of seeing people getting far too up in arms over judging books by their covers.
Perhaps people have more experience than me with Investigator (which isnt hard as I have none) but it seems like it can be very solid in melee. Take the ability to swift action mark and you are looking at half your level to hit and damage. It may not multiple on a crit but that pushes you towadd other weapon choices now that crit ranges dont mean much for you. The talent that lets you add inspiration for only 1 use gives you quite a few uses for combat so you can laugh at the dm when he smirks about how you missed by 1. Throw in buff extracts and mutagen and it seems like you have something that can hold its own as well as anyone can expect from a 3/4 bab class.
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Perhaps people have more experience than me with Investigator (which isnt hard as I have none) but it seems like it can be very solid in melee. Take the ability to swift action mark and you are looking at half your level to hit and damage. It may not multiple on a crit but that pushes you towadd other weapon choices now that crit ranges dont mean much for you. The talent that lets you add inspiration for only 1 use gives you quite a few uses for combat so you can laugh at the dm when he smirks about how you missed by 1. Throw in buff extracts and mutagen and it seems like you have something that can hold its own as well as anyone can expect from a 3/4 bab class.
They get started a little slow, but they're actually really competent in melee once they get going. They don't quite catch up to the Rogue in that extra "sneak attack" damage, but their other abilities make up and then bypass it. They may not be the best combatant out there, but they're certainly not the worst either (again, once they get going).
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What ever happened to PLAYING it, and THEN judging it? Or am I just too old school for these new-fangled players?
You're too old school. These days most people play PFS (whether they have a separate home campaign or not), and once something is in PFS it takes an act of congress (current congress, not a historical congress where they actually voted on stuff from time to time) in order to get it removed. It's MUCH easier to get things changed right when the books come out than waiting for a few months after people already have fully developed characters.
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Divine Protection is Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes rolled into one feat for anyone with at least 14 charisma. More if you're an Oracle and you're pumping charisma as high as it can go.
Amusingly, Paizo thought that making Charmed Life (Swashbuckler ability) function as Divine Grace was too powerful... So instead they gave it to a full caster that needs nothing but charisma.
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So from my reading, Fated Champion and Totemic Skald archetypes are really neat. I'd been intending to build a Savage Skald Bard for a long time now, but this has finally got me excited about playing one.
I'm also really interested in how the Sacred Fist Warpriest is, because it looks like it's Monk+ w/o an alignment requirement, which could finally push me into playing one (I've loved the concept but found the regular Monk just doesn't seem all that interesting mechanically).
All-in-all, this might be really cool for the kind of characters I usually build.
I haven't been able to look at the ACG yet, but... What is with all this fear concerning the new stuff? Seriously. I've been reading up vast majority of these ACG posts, and I just gotta say.
If you're worried about it, let it in bit by bit on the condition it'll be retired if it gets too imbalancing, or house ruled. That way, you can actually see what it seems like IN GAME, rather than read it, scream "OMG!" and assume that it's totally broken... Without seeing it in play first.
Sorry if that sounded offensive, or if anyone took it offensively, but that's seriously a lot of what I'm seeing in response to the ACG. Mostly the Arcanist, I'll admit, but some other stuff as well.
What ever happened to PLAYING it, and THEN judging it? Or am I just too old school for these new-fangled players?
Seriously... Everyone's group is different. What's broke at your table may be sub par at someone else's.
Sry for the venting, just getting tired of seeing people getting far too up in arms over judging books by their covers.
The truth is that I usually agree with this point of view. But it's also the first time that I said to myself: WTF is this class/ feat/ capacity while just reading the book. This book is great but stinks a little bit like 3.5 foolishness of new books/class better than the old one. And it's scared me.
This book is great but stinks a little bit like 3.5 foolishness of new books/class better than the old one. And it's scared me.
To be fair. I think some of it (Slayer/Investigator) is intentional in the same way that ToB was intentional. Can't really go back and rebuild classes that have been in core forever, so might as well print replacements.
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I think the only two things where people (including myself) have gone "WTH, this is too good!" are the Arcanist (now even topped by the Exploiter Wizard archetype) and Divine Protection. Both have obvious problems to anybody with experience with the system.
Anything else looked fine or even underpowered to me (the new spells seem to be mostly less effective than the ones we had in the CRB, magic items seem to be just fine).
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I think the only two things where people (including myself) have gone "WTH, this is too good!" are the Arcanist (now even topped by the Exploiter Wizard archetype) and Divine Protection. Both have obvious problems to anybody with experience with the system.
Anything else looked fine or even underpowered to me (the new spells seem to be mostly less effective than the ones we had in the CRB, magic items seem to be just fine).
Yup...that's about the size of it. Everything else is fine, but the power bloat of these two things is simply foolish, and obviously so.
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Investigator: One of my personal favorites, but perhaps out of place in Pathfinder. Incredible out of combat. Probably better than a rogue in combat (need to test). I was disappointed to discover studied combat needed feats to be useful at a range. Ranged combat is already feat intensive, so I guess it was not meant to be. 6/10 Only rated so low because I doubt it can be used to its full potential in most games. In a game less focused on combat, this guy jumps to a solid 9
Studied Combat needs only one Feat to be useful in ranged combat, that's not too bad. And Investigator is actually great in combat if built for it (with +15 BAB and +10 Studied Combat to both hit and damage, they actually max out at +25 to hit, +10 damage, which isn't too far off from a Fighter's +26 to hit and +6 damage...and that Fighter number includes Gloves of Dueling). Studied Combat is a buff on par with a Dawnflower Dervish's version of Inspire Courage (which makes the Dawnflower Dervish equal to many full BAB classes), and Inspiration can add even more to attack rolls at need (and cheaply if you focus your Talents on it). And all that's on top of having all an Alchemist's self-buff stuff in melee combat (they can even grab Mutagen). All told it's very solid in combat and phenomenal outside it. That's an 8/10 even in a more traditional game IMO...unless you build them poorly for the kind of game they're in, of course.
I think the only two things where people (including myself) have gone "WTH, this is too good!" are the Arcanist (now even topped by the Exploiter Wizard archetype) and Divine Protection. Both have obvious problems to anybody with experience with the system.
Anything else looked fine or even underpowered to me (the new spells seem to be mostly less effective than the ones we had in the CRB, magic items seem to be just fine).
Agreed. Though only Swashbuckler looks especially underpowered to me as Classes go. There are a few legitimately bad Archetypes and Feats, though.
I think the only two things where people (including myself) have gone "WTH, this is too good!" are the Arcanist (now even topped by the Exploiter Wizard archetype) and Divine Protection. Both have obvious problems to anybody with experience with the system.
Anything else looked fine or even underpowered to me (the new spells seem to be mostly less effective than the ones we had in the CRB, magic items seem to be just fine).
I'm also worry by the Magus's Amazing Deed Arcana with Precise Strike, Slashing Grace and Kensai/Blackblade Katana :/
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It can be good against metamagic though, since metamgagic explicitly does not increase the level of a spell, only the level of the slot it takes.Such is not the case in games we're playing, as we're using this FAQ which indicates the spell is indeed higher level.
I agree though, the arcanist class and counterspell exploit are amazing in a GM's hands, as the arcanist will be spending immediate actions to negate the party spellcaster's standard actions for at least the first couple rounds of combat. :)
FEAR THE ARCANIST BBEG!
Kyle Baird: Make this happen.
I think you have misread that FAQ.
First, the question:
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
It give a specific list, it is not for everything.
Then:
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Being counted as a lower level spell for counterspelling is the more disadvantage for the caster interpretation for the caster.
You should read the threads that spawned that FAQ. People trying to recall a empowered magic missile with a qst level pearl of power and claiming that was what the rules say.