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caster martial disparity
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I personally believe that casters at high level are more powerful then martials. Once 7th level spells can be cast I find the disparity so extreme that I can not have fun as player very easily and as DM I find publish material useless with a table filled with players with high system mastery.
At upper levels how do you justify a BBEG not having layered defenses on his person and contingencies that make attacking him physical all but useless.
I don't justify it. If there is a BBEG, and it's appropriate, all of those things will come into play. I expect player ingenuity to find a way around such things (especially since they, too, have high-level abilities and spells), but just in case I generally build in at least three explicit ways to do so that the players have a reasonable chance of discovering.
If there is no BBEG, or if that BBEG wouldn't reasonably do such things (after all, the BBEG might be an Ineffable Being from Beyond the Void), then that's fine too.
By summoning, binding or simply employing low level creatures with commune/1 a week you should be able to know when you going to be attacked by a real threat. Why would someone who can plane shift not get a bunch of these guys?
Ditto.
If you have BBEG without spells how do you justify his not being scryed and fried.
If that's the tactic the PCs want to take, so be it. Still, a typical BBEG still has access to a considerable wealth of magic items that can foil such things. For that matter, a BBEG is generally the (or at least "a") primary antagonist of the campaign. It is not unusual for such a being to have access to all kinds of unusual resources such as artifacts, lairs with unusual properties, and all kinds of campaign-specific (whether homebrewed or published) advantages.
If you martial at the table how do you have fun when not in RP or combat mode?
You want me to describe how to have fun playing a roleplaying game? I pretend to be my character and do what that character would do, just like I would if I were playing a caster.
If a caster at the table how do justify not using spells to solve the problem and skipping the combat?
If I can do that, I will. That's what casters generally do--solve problems using spells. Feature, not bug.
I really do want to know since I would love to use the last 8 levels of content that is published.
Then do so!
In my experience, the primary problem with high-level play is keeping up with the dozens of modifiers that might apply to any given roll. Cheat sheets and tech can help immensely with that sort of thing. But "how do I not use my character's abilities?" has not been a problem.
you roll dice... heck sometimes I don't even roll dice! they just die :P
Dotting so I can comment later.
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I think good GMs can do a lot to bridge the gap between casters and martials in higher levels by prescribing to the "rule of cool". For example, I was playing a 13th level game with a Barbarian with an extremely high intimidate check. We were fighting a lich and his black dragon minion. So, the whole party is having a really hard time with the encounter when the Barbarian jumps onto the back of the black dragon and makes his intimidate check by a mile. He then asks if he can use the check to ride the dragon, and command it to start fighting the lich. Because he got such a high score, and the idea seemed so cool, the GM went along with it even though it wasn't explicitly written into the rules. The creativity of the player and the agreement of the GM led to a super flavorful solution to a very difficult encounter that the rest of us were willing to accept.
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Thank you for answers. I just find that typical design that works at low to mid levels fails at high levels.
How do you have the dragon act so that is a real challenge to the PCs?
As a fighter I feel useless unless there is a combat going on.
RP is one thing but that does not need any rules but creative problem solving that uses mechanics does not favor them.
What do you do to challenge the wizard?
I would love to hear stories.
Ohohohoh, dragons! : )
First off, never, ever close to melee. A dragon in melee is like a wizard in melee--they've already terminally screwed up.
It goes beyond that, though: dragons are, generally smart. Really smart. As in "their opponents never even realized that a fight happened" smart. Get into the mindset of the most diabolical, Xanatos-Gambit-loving super villain and the ways to challenge the party will start pouring in.
That said, at high enough levels, the party can be every bit as cunning, so the end result may or may not be very challenging.
As a fighter, your primary reason for being is combat. It's little surprise that your options are more limited outside of it. My only advice there is to step into character and worry less about mechanical support for your desired actions. If your GM is good, you'll feel empowered whether your class abilities directly apply or not. Pathfinder is not meant to be solely mechanics.
To challenge a wizard...depends on the wizard. Surprise is useful if the wizard isn't a diviner. Without time to prep, even a high level wizard is squishy. Disjunction is a really bad day for a wizard unless they spam spellbane every day. And despite SKR's thoughts in the subject, antimagic and weird magic are things and have their place. But basically, how does your party handle enemy wizards? For a starting point, try that.
Really, questions of challenging PCs are very subject to specific situations. It's hard to propose solutions in the general sense since not all parties are created equal.
Casey's suggestions are also excellent and further encourage reaching outside mechanics to have a good time. The mechanics are there to enable a good time, not the other way around.
Def play a pally, ranger, barbarian, etc next time instead of a fighter. The fighter is pretty much the weakest martial excepting a monk that is non zen archer, and the only class considered worst by most people is the rogue. The best role of the fighter is extra feats to dip for specific builds, generally.
*sheds single tear as yet another thread devolves into "fighters suck"*
Thank you for answers. I just find that typical design that works at low to mid levels fails at high levels.
How do you have the dragon act so that is a real challenge to the PCs?
As a fighter I feel useless unless there is a combat going on.
RP is one thing but that does not need any rules but creative problem solving that uses mechanics does not favor them.
What do you do to challenge the wizard?
I would love to hear stories.
Dragons are ancient and incredibly intelligent creatures with magical powers on par with the strongest wizards. They should have extensively prepared with precast spells, minions, contingencies, trapped lairs, and defenses against scrying. If anything, they'll be the ones scrying on the PCs.
Yes, mechanics are not in the favor of the fighter and other martials. It's an unfortunate fact. As a GM, this is an easy problem to solve. Make the martials important. Give him followers, an army, hell, make him a king. Give him political power. Give him a bonded artifact that grants important powers or knowledge. As a GM, all you need to do is be active and aware of this imbalance.
As a player, this is obviously harder, because you're right. Mechanics do not favor fighters. Talk to your GM about it. Have the GM give you some narrative power. If your GM isn't cooperative... well, it's very hard to deal with an unconvincable GM.
The best way to challenge wizards is with other casters. Know the rules better than the players do. Fight magic with magic.
Also, I think this thread may develop with the sort of advice you're looking for.
As a GM I hold back in fights. It also helps to know the rules well and not get upset if an encounter gets trounced.
As for dragons remember ti change spells and feats and have the dragon use trickery. Ambushes also work. A party that is not buffed can struggle. They should also cover up any defenses.
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One thing to note - depending on his position, I don't think that a BBEG at high levels should have anything even vaguely resembling an adherence to WBL. Why no scry and fry? Because this SOB covers damn near everything in a foot-thick coat of lead. Maybe he even makes his base in a dead magic area.
Embrace the utter ridiculousness of high levels for the bad guys too.
I don't know how my DM kept the game interesting all the way up to Lv. 25 (Yes, we actually stepped into the hell that is 3.0/3.5 Epic) but somehow he did. With one of my characters being a strength focused halfling fighter. (The final stretch was a collusion between two groups banding together to take out the Big Bad.)
How did we enjoy it? Perhaps the few spells that weren't working (The Big Bad was screwing around with the very fabric of reality. Teleportation was very unreliable and dangerous. We were trying to approach the Big Bad's castle at least somewhat stealthily, thanks to Powerful NPC Divination cloaking. Flying would have placed a great big "HEY, OVER HERE" on us.) did a lot more to remove any issues than it initially appeared. Perhaps being run ragged (I don't recall ever having more than a few days off, and thus having no time for our casters to craft anything magical, though I'm pretty sure aside from scrolls nobody had any crafting feats anyways.) Maybe the fact we didn't have a full wizard (One Arcane Trickster and One Sorceress) helped?
All I know is that while I do recall my fighter feeling sidelined at times, I can't say I ever felt completely useless, especially once the swords and spells start flying.
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How do you have the dragon act so that is a real challenge to the PCs?
Ho Ho! Go look up "ancient copper dragon" for starters. Here is a CR17 that can cast (at will): Grease, Hideous Laughter, Stone Shape, Transmute Rock to Mud, and Wall of Stone. ...What do you think an encounter with one would be like? It would be like a 3D funhouse of terrorlaughs. It's a dungeon designed by M.C. Escher and run by the Time Bandits. It's doubtful any of them would ever actually FIND the copper dragon unless he wanted them to. Never mind WHAT the party is doing there in the first place.
At that level, you gotta go beyond just the list of stats and putting them in a 30x30 room. Go down the monster's list of feats and abilities and put together a story of how they got to be so old and powerful. Consider all of the friends and alliances they've made in their lives and the general ecology of how they live. You'll come up with some epic encounters to keep high level characters guessing.
As a fighter I feel useless unless there is a combat going on.
Just like a high level dragon, how did a fighter get so experienced? Does he live in a vacuum? What about all of the enemies he's made along the way? What about all of the friends who want a powerful martial to come help them out? (think of all those westerns where they want to recruit the hero). Remember a martial is what the people SEE when they picture "adventurer" or "hero". He should be casting a long shadow.
What do you do to challenge the wizard?
Make the world a deadly place for someone with less than 100 hit points. Make it a dangerous place for someone with an AC of only around 20 or so. Adjudicate EVERY SINGLE SPELL as it's written in the book. There are actually a surprising number of limitations.
Then...make him work for it. Creating an adventure? Surprise! It takes place in a cavern system that is incredibly hot and full of smoke. (Gonna need that Environment spell). Find the bad guy's castle? Surprise! It doesn't have any doors or windows! (Gonna need a transmute or something). It's up on that floating island in the sky? Surprise! How you getting up there? Surprise! It's guarded by invisible redcaps! Now the spellcaster has to somehow make all those redcaps visible for the party...You get the idea. If he thinks he's so great, make him work for it.
...and then have him roll a save for his spellbook the next time they cross a river. He'll start feeling vulnerable.
*sheds single tear as yet another thread devolves into "fighters suck"*Yeah it's sad but to some extent it's true, but nearly every other martial is as good or nearly as good at what the fighter does (DPR, CMB's, or intimidating) and has neat tricks, extra skill points, spells, etc. Not that all fighters suck, it's just something else is better at what just about any fighter can do.
Whether or not that's true, it feels like the message boards are turning into "fightersandroguessuck.com". Even threads than have nothing to do with it are getting derailed by a single drive-by post. It's exhausting and sad and makes me less likely to bother checking the boards for interesting topics--I don't know which threads are safe and which will end up vortices of thousands of "no U" posts.
...speaking of derailing threads: Sorry about that. : |
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Just going to answer a few of those.
As a fighter I feel useless unless there is a combat going on.
That's because you chose to play a Fighter. There are plenty of melee classes which have more going on. Also could be a campaign issue.
RP is one thing but that does not need any rules but creative problem solving that uses mechanics does not favor them.
Try to imagine how a non-caster BBEG would prepare himself for the adventurers he knows are coming. There are plenty of examples in AP's of locations where you can't use scry and fry. A powerful non-spellcaster can have spellcasting minions / partners in crime, too.
What do you do to challenge the wizard?
I yet have to play with any of those horror story Wizards who sit in their demiplane all day and just scry and fry at will. Sure, they have better methods of escape and avoidance at hand than anybody else, but so far I have had the luck to play with normal players, who don't do crap like that... mostly because they know that if they pull tactics of that kind, they can expect to face the same in the future. A mutual armistice is sometimes needed between the GM and the players on too destructive options.
I am actually having some issues with that at the moment, but it is understandable since we are playing Wrath of the Righteous and both my players and me constantly get surprised how over the top the whole mythic ruleset is (and how badly designed, to boot).
I played SRD-only 3.5e rules in a brutal published campaign that went from 1st to 20th. My "Fighter" was basically a multi-class hodge-podge, but if it's one thing that non-casters can do, it's multi-class without big problems.
Especially in 3.5e where "high level martial abilities" were somewhat lacking (typically, folks jumped into PrCs).
Also, Trip and the original Stand Still allow conflated DCs that basically allowed staying relevant even to high level, very large creatures. Stopping giants in their tracks, while large-sized myself and using a spiked chain for reach, gave my a lot of battlefield control.
Multi-classing barbarian, ranger, rogue, commander, and psychic warrior gave me a lot of options and skills to work with as well.
However, by the near end of the game we were talking about making clones of ourselves, going all "sith" (wizard going Lich, myself going death knight) to kill the epic god-like immortal end boss, and then letting the group cleric who holds our weakness kill us off so we can revert to our cloned selves.
We never finished that campaign, but the end fight was a sort of "enter a demi-plane and fight a final fantasy style super-collossal boss" kind of deal.
High level gameplay gets weird. Best to stop playing if you don't like that kind of stuff.
I've never had a problem with high level play. When playing high level I avoid fighters and rogues unless I'm multiclassing. I had 18th level Barbarian that was blast to play in RotRL. I was a casters nightmare and loved Spell Sunder.
When I gm a high level game I run the 10+ much differently than lower that than 10th level. I use the first 10 levels to set things up for high level play. They get the contacts, responsibilities and such. When I don't do this high level characters are like dropping nuke into a setting when there is no care on the impact of such action. Just scry and fry with out consequences. Who cares about the aftermath in the area or have no effect at all. Actions need consequence in high level play or just goes crazy. The only way you can have consequences is getting the players invested in the setting.
Read the Epic level handbook creatures.
Think big and dont be afraid of mess up the scenario
I stopped caring about running high level games once I figured out that I can make and use enemies that are just as cool by applying templates. If I want a colossal dragon I can just apply the giant and half-dragon templates to a gargantuan dinosaur, for example.
High level gameplay gets weird. Best to stop playing if you don't like that kind of stuff.
Had to run quick at the end there and that sounded far more derisive than I meant.
What I was meaning is to start a new game/campaign or even play an EX game if high level craziness isn't your cup of tea, lol.