Ugh. someone just pointed out that they nerfed parry to require a penache point per parry.
I suppose that gives the dumped charisma dwarven pickbuckler ONE limitation.. but not many.
|
Speaking of PFS bans.
Doesn't PFS ban all gun using archetypes outright? Because for some reason Picaroon isn't banned. Which is weird.
Yeah, traditionally only Gunslinger and Gunslinger archetypes get to have firearms in PFS, but maybe they decided "close enough" since it's an archetype of a class that counts the Gunslinger as a parent class?
I think the PFS gun banning is flavor based. Guns are currently supposed to be really rare in that world. I wonder if those bans may change with the new technology books coming out.
Steelblood bloodrager with powered armor is kinda cool, ignore the 60% spell failure.
Fat chance getting your hands on power armor though.
Yeah, traditionally only Gunslinger and Gunslinger archetypes get to have firearms in PFS, but maybe they decided "close enough" since it's an archetype of a class that counts the Gunslinger as a parent class?
Maybe, but the musketeer archetype of the same class is banned.
|
|
Maybe, but the musketeer archetype of the same class is banned.
Yeah, traditionally only Gunslinger and Gunslinger archetypes get to have firearms in PFS, but maybe they decided "close enough" since it's an archetype of a class that counts the Gunslinger as a parent class?
Yeah, I can't even begin to guess there. Maybe because the Musketeer archetype doesn't do much more than slap firearm proficiency on the Swashbuckler while the Picaroon is a little more extensive and specialized? Who knows...
Your shout heartens your allies and encourages them in the fight.
Prerequisites: Cha 13; base attack bonus +5 or Perform(act, oratory, or sing) 5 ranks.
Benefit: A number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus, you can let out a battle cry a swif action. When you do, allies within 30 feet who can hear you gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear. This effect lasts for 1 minute. If an ally is under the effect of this feat and fails a saving throw, she can choose to end the battle cry’s effect on her to reroll the failed save. The ally must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s lower. Each ally can use this effect only once per use of this feat.
I was discussing this feat with my friends and it occured to me that the reroll may be intended to only apply to fear effects even though RAW it clearly should apply to all saving throws. The feat is mimicing the effect of Mythic Bless which seems really, really strong for a fifth level feat. Or am I just letting the forum-led Paizo-hates-martials-bias get to me?
** spoiler omitted **
I was discussing this feat with my friends and it occured to me that the reroll may be intended to only apply to fear effects even though RAW it clearly should apply to all saving throws. The feat is mimicing the effect of Mythic Bless which seems really, really strong for a fifth level feat. Or am I just letting the forum-led Paizo-hates-martials-bias get to me?
It's a lot of potential rerolls (and it's definitely to all saves), but honestly it doesn't seem OP. If anything it looks like what I would like more feats to be like. Honestly though, by that level you should have more then +1 morale to attacks, so the only real benefit is the team wide reroll.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Monk lovers will like this book. A lot of cool stuff.
Those that had hoped for some love for the rogue and fighter will probably come to the conclusion that it’s time to end all hope.
Fighters: No fighter feats and no feats at all worth investing in. I may have missed something, but I don’t think so. I don’t even think Pummeling Style chain can be used unless you use unarmed combat, but I might be wrong.
Rogue: I skimmed true the feat list and first thought feats like Talented Magician (extra uses of minor and major rogue talents), Twist Away (Use Reflex in place of Fortitude as an immediate action), Twinned Feint (After succeeding at a feint, you can attempt a feint against a second target), all sounded cool until you actually read the feats. Talented Magician only give you one more use of each. Really? Would it be broken to let the rogue use the minor magic rogue talent at will? Would it even be broken to double the uses per day? Twist away don’t change feints duration or the time taken to feint, so unless you have cleave it is useless. Twist Away is nice, nut the fine print is that it leaves you staggered until the end of your next turn. Sorry, I have no hope for the rogue, not even in Unchained book.
Those that like me love the Bard, will realize the Skald is the new Bard. Sorry guys. The Skald gets feats that the Bard should have had ages ago, stuff like raider effects to his performance. True, the Dirge of doom chain is awesome, but we only got it thanks to the Skald. The Skald is also a better spell caster than the bard and it gets Scribe scroll so it can use Spell Kenning to get a bunch of nice scrolls during downtime. Or Pick item creation feats or craft wand and craft away. People complain the Arcanist is broken, hey a Skald can cast any spell from Bard, Cleric or Wizard list twice per day at level 11. Need arcane Eye? Sure. Need fireball? Sure? Need greater magic weapon? Sure. Need fly? Sure. I don’t think Spell Kenning is broken. The Skald isn’t a full caster and it will mostly be used for utility, but the ability scream bard. Why Bard didn’t get access to Spell Kenning as a feat is beyond me. BTW, the Bloodrager can pick a feat that activates Arcane Strike as a free action when raging. Would that be nice if you are a Bard? Arcane Strike as a free action if you perform? No, not for the Bard.
Daring Champion is a better Swashbuckler than Swashbuckler. Daring Champion is the ultimate Swashbuckler fix. Sad the Cavalier is a better
Swashbuckler, but strike out the name Daring Champion and use the name Swashbuckler. Done.
And why the heck do we get Extra channel and extra Hex from the APG in this book?
Kneejerk reaction is the expected one (and the same one I had when I read gestalt classes so many years ago):
Well that is overpowered...why would I ever play anything from the base book again if I can get all here and more?
Those that had hoped for some love for the rogue and fighter will probably come to the conclusion that it’s time to end all hope.
Eh. All four of their archetypes are at least kinda cool.
Daring Champion Cavaliers are probably better Swashbucklers than the Swashbuckler Class...and the new kings of DPR at high levels. Why? Precise Strike adds their level to damage. Also, Challenge adds their level to damage. So...double their level to damage on all attacks while Challenging is now a thing. Go Order of the Dragon (or a few other Orders) and you get +5 to hit by 20th level as well. TWF (easy as hell to do, given the Dex-focus of the build), and it gets worse.
Daring Champions get a very specific list of swashbuckler deeds. (Hint: not all of them). Precise Strike is not on the list of deeds that the class receives.
Eh.
Cool perhaps, but that doesn't mean they are good and it still doesn't help the vanilla classes or other archetypes.
Fighter don't get spells or rage powers, the get bonus feats and there are no such thing as good fighter feats on this book. I'm still waiting for any feat that improve their class features. Still nothing. Similar problem with the rogue.
Daring Champion Cavaliers are probably better Swashbucklers than the Swashbuckler Class...and the new kings of DPR at high levels. Why? Precise Strike adds their level to damage. Also, Challenge adds their level to damage. So...double their level to damage on all attacks while Challenging is now a thing. Go Order of the Dragon (or a few other Orders) and you get +5 to hit by 20th level as well. TWF (easy as hell to do, given the Dex-focus of the build), and it gets worse.Daring Champions get a very specific list of swashbuckler deeds. (Hint: not all of them). Precise Strike is not on the list of deeds that the class receives.
Are you sure? I've seen several people mention the Daring Champion getting Precise Strike so that means they can add their level to damage twice, once through Precise Strike and once through Challenge.
Those that had hoped for some love for the rogue and fighter will probably come to the conclusion that it’s time to end all hope.Eh. All four of their archetypes are at least kinda cool.
Rogue ones are bad. Counterfeit Mage retunes your trapfinding and actually takes away your bonus to finding regular traps. You then get class features to help you use Wands which weren't an issue for Rogues anyways since it's only DC20. Past a certain level, those features are pointedly worthless.
Underground Chemist is poor as well although not as terrible. Int to splash weapons is nice up till the moment you begin to encounter energy resistance. Precise Splash Weapons runs into the same problems all ranged rogues do in that ranged sneak attacks are nearly impossible to get AND you only get to do the Splash Weapon Sneak Attack on 1 attack a round. Getting Alchemist Discoveries is actually the best sounding feature since they tend to be 10x better than Rogue talents except the list is crippled from the start and fixes little to no issues the Rogue as a class has.
The Fighter ones are vastly more interesting and actually good.
I wish there was support for dirty tricks that doesn't suck.
There is. Dirty Trick Master, from Bastards of Golarion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Daring Champion Cavaliers are probably better Swashbucklers than the Swashbuckler Class...and the new kings of DPR at high levels. Why? Precise Strike adds their level to damage. Also, Challenge adds their level to damage. So...double their level to damage on all attacks while Challenging is now a thing. Go Order of the Dragon (or a few other Orders) and you get +5 to hit by 20th level as well. TWF (easy as hell to do, given the Dex-focus of the build), and it gets worse.Daring Champions get a very specific list of swashbuckler deeds. (Hint: not all of them). Precise Strike is not on the list of deeds that the class receives.
Panache and Deeds (Ex): At 4th level, a daring champion
gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the
following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune
parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.
This ability replaces expert trainer.
I recommend you read it again.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
100% of swashbucklers are going to be humans or half-elves with a bastard sword or a katana.
The wonderful thing about generalizations is that the moment one person speaks up and contradicts a generalization, its wrong!
I'm a kitsune flying blade swashbuckler in PFS. My character is a tappenyaki (Hibachi) chef that uses his knives to kill his food and then prepare it for the party.
So far, I've have the pleasure of cooking:
— Snake Rolls (Giant Desert Snake + Desert Oasis Lotuses)
— Thunder Lizard Roll (Shocker Lizard with Spicy Giant Spider on top)
— Hibachi Canine (Wild Dog served with a side of race and diced vegetables)
One last kneejerk wtf:
Arcane Bloodragers still get magic missile at level 7.
They don't get 1st level spells until Level 4. Its not that bad.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Daring Champion Cavaliers are probably better Swashbucklers than the Swashbuckler Class...and the new kings of DPR at high levels. Why? Precise Strike adds their level to damage. Also, Challenge adds their level to damage. So...double their level to damage on all attacks while Challenging is now a thing. Go Order of the Dragon (or a few other Orders) and you get +5 to hit by 20th level as well. TWF (easy as hell to do, given the Dex-focus of the build), and it gets worse.Daring Champions get a very specific list of swashbuckler deeds. (Hint: not all of them). Precise Strike is not on the list of deeds that the class receives.I recommend you read it again.
Panache and Deeds (Ex): At 4th level, a daring champion
gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the
following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune
parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.
This ability replaces expert trainer.
Wow... They traded Expert Trainer for that? No contest, I'd take Panache and Deeds over Expert Trainer every day of the week! Methinks they should read up a little on archetype design.
Daring Champion Cavaliers are probably better Swashbucklers than the Swashbuckler Class...and the new kings of DPR at high levels. Why? Precise Strike adds their level to damage. Also, Challenge adds their level to damage. So...double their level to damage on all attacks while Challenging is now a thing. Go Order of the Dragon (or a few other Orders) and you get +5 to hit by 20th level as well. TWF (easy as hell to do, given the Dex-focus of the build), and it gets worse.Daring Champions get a very specific list of swashbuckler deeds. (Hint: not all of them). Precise Strike is not on the list of deeds that the class receives.I recommend you read it again.
Panache and Deeds (Ex): At 4th level, a daring champion
gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the
following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune
parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.
This ability replaces expert trainer.
Huh. You're right.
That's a horrible, horrible miscalculation.
Daring Champion Cavaliers are probably better Swashbucklers than the Swashbuckler Class...and the new kings of DPR at high levels. Why? Precise Strike adds their level to damage. Also, Challenge adds their level to damage. So...double their level to damage on all attacks while Challenging is now a thing. Go Order of the Dragon (or a few other Orders) and you get +5 to hit by 20th level as well. TWF (easy as hell to do, given the Dex-focus of the build), and it gets worse.Daring Champions get a very specific list of swashbuckler deeds. (Hint: not all of them). Precise Strike is not on the list of deeds that the class receives.I recommend you read it again.
Panache and Deeds (Ex): At 4th level, a daring champion
gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the
following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune
parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.
This ability replaces expert trainer.Wow... They traded Expert Trainer for that? No contest, I'd take Panache and Deeds over Expert Trainer every day of the week! Methinks they should read up a little on archetype design.
Why on earth would I contest MORE shameless plug-ins for my blog? :-P
What's the bloodrager spell list now? At first it had the magi list (which was passable, but meant it couldn't cast some spells every caster in the game could) second it got a unique list that was strictly worse than the magi's.
At first glance I feel the final list is worse than the magus list. But it depends on what you want from those spells. During the first part of the playtest I build my BR in a way that he coped with most combat related things using his rage and only cast spells out of combat or in emergencies. As such my spells were vanish, keep watch, Swift girding.
The final list* is mostly combat with only a little utility. All those spells have to compete with attacking during rage in effectiveness. And that with the spells only starting at 4th level. So you have to compare a shocking grasp to a two-handed powerattack, for example.
Sure, I can see using some combat spells in rounds in which you have to move, for example. But all in all I'd see a bigger net gain in overall power and versatility via out of combat or emergency spell usage.
*I mainly looked at the low levels.
Apart from the spell list I could not see significant alterations done to the BR. Especially not in the bloodlines which were (and seemingly still are) very unbalanced to each others.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow... They traded Expert Trainer for that? No contest, I'd take Panache and Deeds over Expert Trainer every day of the week! Methinks they should read up a little on archetype design.
Archetypes aren't designed to be balanced per-feature. The Archetype gives up the mount entirely, as well as all armor proficiencies heavier than light, and officially only gain Champion's Finesse (basically Swashbuckler's Finesse) the equivalent of a single Feat in exchange. So...those are really to help make up for that, whatever they are officially in exchange for.
Now, whether the Archetype as a whole is balanced is another matter (it's quite possibly not...Precise Strike + Challenge is maybe a bit excessive), but just comparing single trades in isolation is a bad way to determine whether an archetype is balanced.
Wow... They traded Expert Trainer for that? No contest, I'd take Panache and Deeds over Expert Trainer every day of the week! Methinks they should read up a little on archetype design.
Archetypes aren't designed to be balanced per-feature. The Archetype gives up the mount entirely, as well as all armor proficiencies heavier than light, and officially only gain Champion's Finesse (basically Swashbuckler's Finesse) the equivalent of a single Feat in exchange. So...those are really to help make up for that, whatever they are officially in exchange for.
Now, whether the Archetype as a whole is balanced is another matter (it's quite possibly not...Precise Strike + Challenge is maybe a bit excessive), but just comparing single trades in isolation is a bad way to determine whether an archetype is balanced.
See, I was not aware of that. Still waiting on the ACG to be available at the FLGS. Our distributor up here is really, really slow sometimes. I had to wait for a full month until Ultimate Equipment became available when it came out.
|
|
See, I was not aware of that. Still waiting on the ACG to be available at the FLGS. Our distributor up here is really, really slow sometimes. I had to wait for a full month until Ultimate Equipment became available when it came out.
Oh, I completely understand. I was just noting the full trade-off involved for clarity's sake.
Those that had hoped for some love for the rogue and fighter will probably come to the conclusion that it’s time to end all hope.
I'm suspicious they aren't doing much for some classes, because of the upcoming Unchained book. Specifically fighter,rogue,monk and summoner.
I'm hopeful for the summoner unchained. I love the idea of a summoner, but the current implementation was probably too complicated and hard to manage, resulting in all of its archetypes either being too niche or too powerful.
Monk lovers will like this book. A lot of cool stuff.
Those that had hoped for some love for the rogue and fighter will probably come to the conclusion that it’s time to end all hope.
Fighters: No fighter feats and no feats at all worth investing in. I may have missed something, but I don’t think so. I don’t even think Pummeling Style chain can be used unless you use unarmed combat, but I might be wrong.Rogue: I skimmed true the feat list and first thought feats like Talented Magician (extra uses of minor and major rogue talents), Twist Away (Use Reflex in place of Fortitude as an immediate action), Twinned Feint (After succeeding at a feint, you can attempt a feint against a second target), all sounded cool until you actually read the feats. Talented Magician only give you one more use of each. Really? Would it be broken to let the rogue use the minor magic rogue talent at will? Would it even be broken to double the uses per day? Twist away don’t change feints duration or the time taken to feint, so unless you have cleave it is useless. Twist Away is nice, nut the fine print is that it leaves you staggered until the end of your next turn. Sorry, I have no hope for the rogue, not even in Unchained book.
Rogue gets no love. They just get replaced. Unchained will be a new rogue replacing the old rogue.
Fighters got a couple of amazing archetypes. Martial flexibility and a mutagen + discoveries. Basically not even the fighter anymore, but that char is at least good to decent.
Those that had hoped for some love for the rogue and fighter will probably come to the conclusion that it’s time to end all hope.I'm suspicious they aren't doing much for some classes, because of the upcoming Unchained book. Specifically fighter,rogue,monk and summoner.
Monk's are kind of already awesome. Qinggong just does wonders.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be absolutely, 100% fair, a lot of people liked the Cavalier but didn't like mounts, so that's also a lot of pent-up Cavaliering.
To be absolutely, 100% fair, a lot of people liked the Cavalier but didn't like mounts, so that's also a lot of pent-up Cavaliering.
Yeah. Unless you are small with a medium mount, the mount just can't reasonably go a lot of places with you.
Those that had hoped for some love for the rogue and fighter will probably come to the conclusion that it’s time to end all hope.I'm suspicious they aren't doing much for some classes, because of the upcoming Unchained book. Specifically fighter,rogue,monk and summoner.
I'm hopeful for the summoner unchained. I love the idea of a summoner, but the current implementation was probably too complicated and hard to manage, resulting in all of its archetypes either being too niche or too powerful.
Oy, thought the Fighter wasn't to be in Unchained.
|
|
I'm probably gonna sound dumb, but am I the only one who was kinda disappointed that the spontaneous magus was CHA based instead of INT? I wish there were more INT based spontaneous casters and CHA based prepared casters--arcanist and paladin just don't really do it for me.
I'm fairly certain that it's a deliberate design choice by Paizo that INT = prepared and CHA = spontaneous. The Paladin is kind of an aberration due to legacy issues and the Arcanist isn't really a CHA caster, he's just a caster who has uses for CHA.
To be absolutely, 100% fair, a lot of people liked the Cavalier but didn't like mounts, so that's also a lot of pent-up Cavaliering.
Bingo. I've had my eye on Cavalier Archetypes for awhile waiting for good ones that replace the Mount.
Wow... They traded Expert Trainer for that? No contest, I'd take Panache and Deeds over Expert Trainer every day of the week! Methinks they should read up a little on archetype design.
Archetypes aren't designed to be balanced per-feature. The Archetype gives up the mount entirely, as well as all armor proficiencies heavier than light, and officially only gain Champion's Finesse (basically Swashbuckler's Finesse) the equivalent of a single Feat in exchange. So...those are really to help make up for that, whatever they are officially in exchange for.
Now, whether the Archetype as a whole is balanced is another matter (it's quite possibly not...Precise Strike + Challenge is maybe a bit excessive), but just comparing single trades in isolation is a bad way to determine whether an archetype is balanced.
Actually this is wrong. They keep medium armor proficiency and are also proficient with bucklers.
|
|
Actually this is wrong. They keep medium armor proficiency and are also proficient with bucklers.Archetypes aren't designed to be balanced per-feature. The Archetype gives up the mount entirely, as well as all armor proficiencies heavier than light, and officially only gain Champion's Finesse (basically Swashbuckler's Finesse) the equivalent of a single Feat in exchange. So...those are really to help make up for that, whatever they are officially in exchange for.
Now, whether the Archetype as a whole is balanced is another matter (it's quite possibly not...Precise Strike + Challenge is maybe a bit excessive), but just comparing single trades in isolation is a bad way to determine whether an archetype is balanced.
The trade he indicated was off a bit, but the rest of the statement was correct. Archetypes are balanced as a whole, not on feature to feature trade value.
I like the daring champion. I'm going to be rolling up a Daring Champion with Order of the Star and a 2 level dip in Paladin for some knightly goodness :)
I'm probably gonna sound dumb, but am I the only one who was kinda disappointed that the spontaneous magus was CHA based instead of INT? I wish there were more INT based spontaneous casters and CHA based prepared casters--arcanist and paladin just don't really do it for me.I'm fairly certain that it's a deliberate design choice by Paizo that INT = prepared and CHA = spontaneous. The Paladin is kind of an aberration due to legacy issues and the Arcanist isn't really a CHA caster, he's just a caster who has uses for CHA.
I agree, INT and WIS based casters are prepared casters, CHA are spontaneous, the only ones that break this rule are the paladin and two sorcerer archetypes. The reason that the paladin broke this rule is because the paladin "must" have CHA for legacy reasons but Paizo decided (very wisely i might add) that a class shouldn't require two mental abilities.
PS. The arcanist is INT based through and through, in fact it can work very well with dumped CHA from what i can understand.
EDIT: And inquisitor, which i forgot about, i really don't have a reason for this other than "they didn't want the inquisitor class to use a usless stat"
Oy, thought the Fighter wasn't to be in Unchained.
Woops. You seem to be right. It was barbarian and not fighter. Weird?
Unfortunately, I can no longer edit that post, so there will now be several separate posts offering the same correction.
And why the heck do we get Extra channel and extra Hex from the APG in this book?
Because they wanted to modify those feats to accommodate special cases introduced by the Shaman and Warpriest classes.
I agree, INT and WIS based casters are prepared casters, CHA are spontaneous, the only ones that break this rule are the paladin and two sorcerer archetypes. The reason that the paladin broke this rule is because the paladin "must" have CHA for legacy reasons but Paizo decided (very wisely i might add) that a class shouldn't require two mental abilities.
PS. The arcanist is INT based through and through, in fact it can work very well with dumped CHA from what i can understand.
Don't forget inquisitors and hunters - they're spontaneous casters based off of wisdom.
And why the heck do we get Extra channel and extra Hex from the APG in this book?
I was wondering about that myself. There are a handful of reprints for some odd reason.
|
|
I was wondering about that myself. There are a handful of reprints for some odd reason.And why the heck do we get Extra channel and extra Hex from the APG in this book?
My guess would be that they just want to make sure that all the pieces you need to play the new classes are located with them right in the book. That way, if you own the ACG but not the APG, you've still got the most relevant feats.
IT's a little weird considering the existence of the PRD, but... It also makes sense for players who maybe don't internets as much.
|
|
I believe there will be far fewer swashbucklers than cavalier swasbucklers.
Which is unfortunate because I liked the swashbuckler.
Agreed, I'm probably using House Rules to make Charmed Life actually really good to make them more viable.
Actually this is wrong. They keep medium armor proficiency and are also proficient with bucklers.
Whoops. That'll show me to post when not actually looking at the Archetype. Though I'll note that I said nothing about shield proficiencies one way or the other. And, as Ssalarn notes, I think my basic point stands.