Well no didnt they already state they were adding a rapier specific feat for this?It's true there should be a feat heavy way to get DEX to damage for TWFs, especially rouges and such, but honestly I feel Agile is actually balanced enough as is when it comes to those classes.I wasn't aware that being incapable of doing the thing you want to do before level 7 was considered a balanced and fair way to introduce a play style. I don't want to wait through what could be several months of real life time to do the thing I designed my character to do.Oh hey sup.
Hmmm I guess I can see your point, but I personally dont think the damage output difference is that important during the early game.
How about this I saw earlier the "greater weapon finesse feat" and I was thinking:
Greater weapon finesse - requires 17 dex, weapon finesse, slashing grace. You may use dex instead of str for any single finessable weapon, or use dex for attack rolls on any slashing weapon affected by slashing grace. This feat can be selected multiple times. Each time it does it applies to a different weapon.
Ok, so in order for my character to play even a Swashbuckler with this fix and a Rapier, I would need Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, and Greater Weapon Finesse.
So I'll be waiting until 7th or 9th level before this comes together? I might as well just buy an agile weapon then, because I won't have the feats to do anything other than 'full attack' with that lineup.
Yes... In another book, not as an errata to this feat.
And between that feat being Rapier-only, and this feat being One-Handed Weapon only, if you want to use TWF you need Agile on your off-hand weapon anyways.
Why not just a general feat is the question we are all asking ourselves...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not just a general feat is the question we are all asking ourselves...
A few misguided individuals think it would be overpowered, for reasons that have been thoroughly debunked.
Maybe they aren't good feats, but they're miles ahead better designed than giving all finessable weapons Dex to Damage. :)
Also I hate this line of thinking. It's like "Hey these options might suck, but it's better than anything people have come up with". I'd rather that not be the bar we set for feats, especially for Martials.
Well no didnt they already state they were adding a rapier specific feat for this?Ok, so in order for my character to play even a Swashbuckler with this fix and a Rapier, I would need Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, and Greater Weapon Finesse.
So I'll be waiting until 7th or 9th level before this comes together? I might as well just buy an agile weapon then, because I won't have the feats to do anything other than 'full attack' with that lineup.
Yes they did, but that's one of the points of this thread. Should they release errata that, essentially, re-writes Slashing Grace into something more desirable, or should they leave it as it is, in it's clunky, not working, faulty incarnation? Or should they release a more generic feat in a later book?
The Rapier feat still doesn't change the fact that it makes absolutely no sense that I can make a dex martial with an axe, or bastard sword, but I can't do so with a dagger unless I wait until 6th level to purchase a magic dagger.
Meanwhile, I have to fear having my weapon stolen, broken, dispelled, or rendered non-magical but the Dex Battleaxe Wielder can simply use any old battleaxe he finds.
I predict a future filled with 1 level Swashbuckler dips to make builds work, but honestly milticlassing should be about something more than that in my mind...
because with one feat you would make str, pointless, except for power attack. two weapon fighting would become hands down the powerful form of fighting.
right now the game is well balanced with str and dex. paizo and the devs are right to never do it, and they shouldnt, they would in one fell swoop undue everything they tried to regarding dump stats.
with such a feat, no one would need to take beyond 13 str, ever.
because it would break the game. with one feat you would make str, pointless, unless you needed power attack, but even then why would you want to do that, when two weapon fighting would become hands down the powerful form of fighting.
- 2 feats, not 1.
- Still less powerful than both 2-handed and archery builds- No access to Power Attack
- Low carrying capacity
- TWF would still be underpowered, just less so.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
because it would break the game. with one feat you would make str, pointless, unless you needed power attack, but even then why would you want to do that, when two weapon fighting would become hands down the powerful form of fighting.
right now the game is well balanced with str and dex. paizo and the devs are right to never do it, and they shouldnt, they would in one fell swoop undue everything they tried to regarding dump stats.
Confirmed for not reading the thread.
because it would break the game. with one feat you would make str, pointless, unless you needed power attack, but even then why would you want to do that, when two weapon fighting would become hands down the powerful form of fighting.
right now the game is well balanced with str and dex. paizo and the devs are right to never do it, and they shouldnt, they would in one fell swoop undue everything they tried to regarding dump stats.
Where is your math to support this? As it currently exists, Strength is the more superior option damage wise.
You don't get 1.5 Dex when you two hand, you don't get 1.5 damage with piranha strike. You only get that when you use Strength and Power Attack.
To the best of my knowledge, even with the existence of the Slashing Grace feat, it is still, mechanically, superior to play a Swashbuckler with a high strength rather than a high Dex because of the superior damage.
It's no different than that, mechanically, it's better to play a Strength Monk, or Strength Rogue than to play a dex one, even with Weapon Finesse and agile weapons or Dervish Dance.
You know what Dex to Damage really does for combat wise, though? Makes it last longer.
With the decrease in damage, enemies survive more rounds, meaning the party spends more rounds fighting enemies. So there is a greater expenditure in resources, which means parties are less likely to curbstomp their way threw all encounters.
it would be a waste. even if you didnt get the 1.5dex damage.
why would you invest in a abilty that would only give you at most 50% of your str to damage.
when you can focus you resources and incease you, ac, reflex saves, skills you actually use, acrobatics, stealth, I'm sorry but this is a no brainer. no to meantion you still get the benefit of power attack with only 13 str, which quite frankly is way more important than 50% str damage.
currently the game is perfectly balanced with str and dex, there are trade off both. if you did a general feat, the balance in favor of dexterity would be over the top. there literally would be zero reason for a vanilla fighter to be anything other than two weapon high dex fighter or two weapon high dex shield fighter. you would be gimping yourself by making yourself a strenght fighter compared to the massive benefits you give up for half more str damage. this is not even a close argument.
Confirmed for not reading the thread.because it would break the game. with one feat you would make str, pointless, unless you needed power attack, but even then why would you want to do that, when two weapon fighting would become hands down the powerful form of fighting.
right now the game is well balanced with str and dex. paizo and the devs are right to never do it, and they shouldnt, they would in one fell swoop undue everything they tried to regarding dump stats.
Seriously, re-read the thread. These objections have already been dealt with, multiple times.
Seriously, re-read the thread. These objections have already been dealt with, multiple times.Confirmed for not reading the thread.because it would break the game. with one feat you would make str, pointless, unless you needed power attack, but even then why would you want to do that, when two weapon fighting would become hands down the powerful form of fighting.
right now the game is well balanced with str and dex. paizo and the devs are right to never do it, and they shouldnt, they would in one fell swoop undue everything they tried to regarding dump stats.
i did read the thread, and i disagree with the conclusion, and i completely concur with what the developers have previously said that such a feat would destroy game balance.
it would be a waste. even if you didnt get the 1.5dex damage.
why would you invest in a abilty that would only give you at most 50% more damage.
when you can focus you resources and incease you, ac, reflex saves, skills you actually use, acrobatics, stealth, I'm sorry but this is a no brainer. no to meantion you still get the benefit of power attack with only 13 str, which quite frankly is way more important than 50% str damage.
currently the game is perfectly balanced with str and dex, there are trade off both. if you did a general feat, the balance in favor of dexterity would be over the top. there literally would be zero reason for a vanilla fighter to be anything other than two weapon high dex fighter or two weapon high dex shield fighter. you would be gimping yourself by making yourself a strenght fighter compared to the massive benefits you give up for half more str damage. this is not even a close argument.
That's why everyone takes takes Dervish Dance!
Oh, right! They don't! Unless they are Magus, since the class is shohorned into dueling anyway... And even then, Str build are just as good.
Also, investing in Str saves you 2 feats. Enough to give them a good edge.
i did read the thread, and i disagree with the conclusion, and i completely concur with what the developers have previously said that such a feat would destroy game balance.
It really wouldn't.
There are many, many things that are far more powerful than a dueling character adding Dex to damage for the cost of 2 feats.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
i did read the thread, and i disagree with the conclusion, and i completely concur with what the developers have previously said that such a feat would destroy game balance.Seriously, re-read the thread. These objections have already been dealt with, multiple times.Confirmed for not reading the thread.because it would break the game. with one feat you would make str, pointless, unless you needed power attack, but even then why would you want to do that, when two weapon fighting would become hands down the powerful form of fighting.
right now the game is well balanced with str and dex. paizo and the devs are right to never do it, and they shouldnt, they would in one fell swoop undue everything they tried to regarding dump stats.
Dex to damage already exists and doesnt unbalance the game. So whatever reservations the devs have are pretty damn unfounded.
I think the fact that two weapon fighters have to spend twice as much to be as effective as a one handed fighter is still another limitation.
it would be a waste. even if you didnt get the 1.5dex damage.
why would you invest in a abilty that would only give you at most 50% of your str to damage.
when you can focus you resources and incease you, ac, reflex saves, skills you actually use, acrobatics, stealth, I'm sorry but this is a no brainer. no to meantion you still get the benefit of power attack with only 13 str, which quite frankly is way more important than 50% str damage.
Why??? Because it eliminates the absurdity of the best Monks and Rogues being musclebound thugs capable of benchpressing buses, and allows nimble, agile, precise, fighters. There's a good reason right there.
it would be a waste. even if you didnt get the 1.5dex damage.
why would you invest in a abilty that would only give you at most 50% more damage.
when you can focus you resources and incease you, ac, reflex saves, skills you actually use, acrobatics, stealth, I'm sorry but this is a no brainer. no to meantion you still get the benefit of power attack with only 13 str, which quite frankly is way more important than 50% str damage.
currently the game is perfectly balanced with str and dex, there are trade off both. if you did a general feat, the balance in favor of dexterity would be over the top. there literally would be zero reason for a vanilla fighter to be anything other than two weapon high dex fighter or two weapon high dex shield fighter. you would be gimping yourself by making yourself a strenght fighter compared to the massive benefits you give up for half more str damage. this is not even a close argument.
That's why everyone takes takes Dervish Dance!
Oh, right! They don't! Unless they are Magus, since the class is shohorned into dueling anyway... And even then, Str build are just as good.
Also, investing in Str saves you 2 feats. Enough to give them a good edge.
we agree to disagree.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dueling Grace
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of Weapon Finessable, Light, or One Handed weapon. When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed or Light piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
| 41 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 35 people marked this as a favorite. |
I propose a FAQrata from the devs
Slashing Grace (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Fencing Grace (Combat)
Your extreme style and fluid rapier forms allow you to use agility rather than brute force to fell your foes.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: ou can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
In addition, if you have the panache class feature, you gain a +2 bonus to CMD against attempts to disarm you of your weapon while you have at least 1 panache point.
Incredibly, by removing Weapon Focus as a prerequisite, and by adding a couple of words the feat is fixed. Weapon Focus is a terrible feat tax to be placed on something that is a player's option. Only human fighters and swashbucklers can have this feat online at lvl 1, humans who pay for retraining via UCamp can have it at 3rd level, and everyone else has to wait until 5th level and they have to dedicate all their feats to it. Very poor design that is very easily fixed by removing the Weapon Focus tax imo.
Since we already know a second printing of the ACG is going to happen because of the cover fiasco, why don't we propose this errata for the second printing and an FAQ for the release.
If you like this idea, please favorite and hit FAQ.
Incredibly, by removing Weapon Focus as a prerequisite, and by adding a couple of words the feat is fixed. Weapon Focus is a terrible feat tax to be placed on something that is a player's option. Only human fighters and swashbucklers can have this feat online at lvl 1, humans who pay for retraining via UCamp can have it at 3rd level, and everyone else has to wait until 5th level and they have to dedicate all their feats to it. Very poor design that is very easily fixed by removing the Weapon Focus tax imo.
Since we already know a second printing of the ACG is going to happen because of the cover fiasco, why don't we propose this errata for the second printing and an FAQ for the release.
If you like this idea, please favorite and hit FAQ.
I don't see the point in limiting it to a single weapon, but still... It's a pretty good fix. Probably the best we can hope for.
I don't see the point in limiting it to a single weapon, but still... It's a pretty good fix. Probably the best we can hope for.Incredibly, by removing Weapon Focus as a prerequisite, and by adding a couple of words the feat is fixed. Weapon Focus is a terrible feat tax to be placed on something that is a player's option. Only human fighters and swashbucklers can have this feat online at lvl 1, humans who pay for retraining via UCamp can have it at 3rd level, and everyone else has to wait until 5th level and they have to dedicate all their feats to it. Very poor design that is very easily fixed by removing the Weapon Focus tax imo.
Since we already know a second printing of the ACG is going to happen because of the cover fiasco, why don't we propose this errata for the second printing and an FAQ for the release.
If you like this idea, please favorite and hit FAQ.
Improved Critical also requires you to pick a specific weapon. Personally I also think that that feat needs a FAQrata to remove the BAB requirement considering all of the classes that have access to expanded threat ranges before BAB 8 anyway. It's just another stab at the fighter being weaker than everyone else, but that's for another thread. Simply using the requirement of selecting a specific weapon as precedent makes the feat seem a lot less 'omfg broken sauce the sky is falling we are all DOOMED because STR is now a universal dump stat we all better go to 5e the world is dead and the cat has found the cheezburger' reactions that the feat would receive otherwise.
Requiring a specific weapon doesn't bother me personally.
It feels weird that a guy could know how to add Dex to damage with a rapier, but not a dagger... But like I said, your idea is probably the best we can hope form anyway.
I guess the devs are terrified of the idea of someone TWFing with two different weapons.
It feels weird that a guy could know how to add Dex to damage with a rapier, but not a dagger... But like I said, your idea is probably the best we can hope form anyway.
I guess the devs are terrified of the idea of someone TWFing with two different weapons.
Anecdotal evidence on my part is that most people will want to use the same weapon in both hands because TWF penalties are halved by taking weapon focus, and by using the same weapon in both hands you remove the need to take the feat twice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It feels weird that a guy could know how to add Dex to damage with a battleaxe , but not a dagger... But like I said, your idea is probably the best we can hope form anyway.
I guess the devs are terrified of the idea of someone TWFing with two different weapons.
Fixed that for you. Color me...jaded.
Anecdotal evidence on my part is that most people will want to use the same weapon in both hands because TWF penalties are halved by taking weapon focus, and by using the same weapon in both hands you remove the need to take the feat twice.It feels weird that a guy could know how to add Dex to damage with a rapier, but not a dagger... But like I said, your idea is probably the best we can hope form anyway.
I guess the devs are terrified of the idea of someone TWFing with two different weapons.
I know... I just don't think characters should be required to do so.
If players want to use the less powerful, more flavorful option, they shouldn't be penalized for it.
minor rant:
Although, that seems to always be the case... If a martial is not using a DPR-focused 2-handed or archery-based build, they have to pay a bunch of feat taxes just for the privilege of not being a cookie-cutter build.
/minor rant.
I propose a FAQrata from the devs
Slashing Grace (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Incredibly, by removing Weapon Focus as a prerequisite, and by adding a couple of words the feat is fixed. Weapon Focus is a terrible feat tax to be placed on something that is a player's option. Only human fighters and swashbucklers can have this feat online at lvl 1, humans who pay for retraining via UCamp can have it at 3rd level, and everyone else has to wait until 5th level and they have to dedicate all their feats to it. Very poor design that is very...Fencing Grace (Combat)
Your extreme style and fluid rapier forms allow you to use agility rather than brute force to fell your foes.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: ou can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
In addition, if you have the panache class feature, you gain a +2 bonus to CMD against attempts to disarm you of your weapon while you have at least 1 panache point.
I FAQ'd it, but the biggest problem with this is that you have Slashing Grace in the ACG, the hardback rule book line, while Fencing Grace will appear in a player companion. So if a GM doesn't allow splat books and only the hardback rule books (something several posters have mentioned their GM already does), then they won't have access to Fencing Grace, shoehorning every Finesse character into having to use slashing only weapons.
However, this is probably the best thing we'll get since the Designers think that Dex to Damage is the single most powerful option in the game, bar none.
I say this because Jason Bulmahn stated he thinks Mythic Weapon Finesse is probably too powerful even for Mythic. However the ability to self-create artifacts, or become a god and grant spells to followers, or cast any spell on your list for a Mythic Point etc. are perfectly fine. But Mythic Weapon Finesse? Nah, that's broken.
Odd, how all the players and GMs are saying Mythic Power Attack, Vital Strike and Improved Crit are the biggest problems in Mythic and not a single person has mentioned Mythic Weapon Finesse being too powerful...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah... Paizo's paranoia of Dex-to-damage options breaking the game is mind-boggling and almost funny, considering how much broken stuff they accept as perfectly balanced.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anecdotal evidence on my part is that most people will want to use the same weapon in both hands because TWF penalties are halved by taking weapon focus, and by using the same weapon in both hands you remove the need to take the feat twice.It feels weird that a guy could know how to add Dex to damage with a rapier, but not a dagger... But like I said, your idea is probably the best we can hope form anyway.
I guess the devs are terrified of the idea of someone TWFing with two different weapons.
I know... I just don't think characters should be required to do so.
If players want to use the less powerful, more flavorful option, they shouldn't be penalized for it.
Although, that seems to always be the case... If a martial is not using a DPR-focused 2-handed or archery-based build, they have to pay a bunch of feat taxes just for the privilege of not being a cookie-cutter build.
If only there there was some avenue where paizo could redo the feat chain so that it scales with Base Attack, and had precedent for such a design mechanic. So that players who want that style can do so without completely dedicating their character's existence to it.
Maybe even allow a single main hand and single off hand attack as a standard action as part of the feat. But that's none of my business, nor is it one for this thread.
awesome stuff that I postedI FAQ'd it, but the biggest problem with this is that you have Slashing Grace in the ACG, the hardback rule book line, while Fencing Grace will appear in a player companion. So if a GM doesn't allow splat books and only the hardback rule books (something several posters have mentioned their GM already does), then they won't have access to Fencing Grace, shoehorning every Finesse character into having to use slashing only weapons.
However, this is probably the best thing we'll get since the Designers think that Dex to Damage is the single most powerful option in the game, bar none.
I say this because Jason Bulmahn stated he thinks Mythic Weapon Finesse is probably too powerful even for Mythic. However the ability to self-create artifacts, or become a god and grant spells to followers, or cast any spell on your list for a Mythic Point etc. are perfectly fine. But Mythic Weapon Finesse? Nah, that's broken.
Odd, how all the players and GMs are saying Mythic Power Attack, Vital Strike and Improved Crit are the biggest problems in Mythic and not a single person has mentioned Mythic Weapon Finesse being too powerful...
Perhaps we should FAQrata Fencing Grace into the ACG for the second printing?
Perhaps we should FAQrata Fencing Grace into the ACG for the second printing?awesome stuff that I postedI FAQ'd it, but the biggest problem with this is that you have Slashing Grace in the ACG, the hardback rule book line, while Fencing Grace will appear in a player companion. So if a GM doesn't allow splat books and only the hardback rule books (something several posters have mentioned their GM already does), then they won't have access to Fencing Grace, shoehorning every Finesse character into having to use slashing only weapons.
However, this is probably the best thing we'll get since the Designers think that Dex to Damage is the single most powerful option in the game, bar none.
I say this because Jason Bulmahn stated he thinks Mythic Weapon Finesse is probably too powerful even for Mythic. However the ability to self-create artifacts, or become a god and grant spells to followers, or cast any spell on your list for a Mythic Point etc. are perfectly fine. But Mythic Weapon Finesse? Nah, that's broken.
Odd, how all the players and GMs are saying Mythic Power Attack, Vital Strike and Improved Crit are the biggest problems in Mythic and not a single person has mentioned Mythic Weapon Finesse being too powerful...
Paizo has a policy of not adding to the books if it changes the number count. So if something refers to Page 98 of the ACG and then that content gets bumped to Page 99, they have to reprint everything that references.
It's the primary reason why they don't change a bunch of stuff in the CRB.
If Fencing Grace could be added to the ACG without changing the page numbers, I'd be all for it. But that's highly unlikely.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah... Paizo's paranoia of Dex-to-damage options breaking the game is mind-boggling and almost funny, considering how much broken stuff they accept as perfectly balanced.
Yeah... Paizo's paranoia of Dex-to-damage options breaking the game is mind-boggling and almost funny, considering how much broken stuff they accept as perfectly balanced.
F$#&in' Win right here! :P