with the arrival of the AGC it looks like theres a ton of ways to get just about any of the new class's abilities on just about any other class. it looks like just about any new mechanics you want thers a feat/archtype/magic item to get ahold of it. Now while I personal really enjoy it, I'm curious what others thoughts on the matter are
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I'll need to take a look at it myself. My only impression so far is the Oracle stealing Divine Grace from a Paladin... which came right after the whole Slashing Grace fiasco. Not the best first impression.
I had not heard about this feature of the ACG. I think it sounds very cool!
I'll need to take a look at it myself. My only impression so far is the Oracle stealing Divine Grace from a Paladin... which came right after the whole Slashing Grace fiasco. Not the best first impression.what is it called and are there any prereqs or limitations?
Don't recall the name, but it requires a 2nd level divine spell.
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Don't recall the name, but it requires a 2nd level divine spell.I'll need to take a look at it myself. My only impression so far is the Oracle stealing Divine Grace from a Paladin... which came right after the whole Slashing Grace fiasco. Not the best first impression.what is it called and are there any prereqs or limitations?
I believe it required some other stuff, too (ranks in Knowledge-Religion, for example), but might've misinterpreted.
I had not heard about this feature of the ACG. I think it sounds very cool!
yeah, once the books out proper im expecting a lot of people to be really surprised by these sort of options as paizo hasn't really mentioned it at all. Feats like amateur swashbuckler granting a nice chunk of swash toys, there's a simuler feat that hands out inspiration, many many archetypes swapping out class features like judgement and wild shape for sneak attack and studied combat. feats that give limited uses of martial flexibility to non brawlers, amulets that grant bloodraging.
I believe it required some other stuff, too (ranks in Knowledge-Religion, for example), but might've misinterpreted.
Cha 13, Knowledge(religion)5,
ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, blessings, domains,or mystery class feature.
so not supper hard
Question. Is that one of "able to cast 2nd-level divine spells", blessings, domains, or mystery, or "able to cast 2nd-level divine spells" and one of blessings, domains, or mystery?
Fair question let me just quote it
"Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks,ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells; blessings†, domains,
or mystery class feature."
so pretty sure its 2nd lvl spells and also ether of toughs 3 features
A 1 level Trickery cleric dip would fill out those requirements. I think Cayden Cailean will prove to be a very popular Swashbuckler god, and not just for flavor reasons...
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A 1 level Trickery cleric dip would fill out those requirements. I think Cayden Cailean will prove to be a very popular Swashbuckler god, and not just for flavor reasons...
Cayden Cailean actually lacks Trickery. Though with the Separatist archetype, any God will do. The dip's actually a very solid idea in a lot of ways, bolstering both their bad Saves even without the Feat.
There've also been some references to other Feats a Swashbuckler can take for this sort of thing without the dip, though. So we'll have to see whether the advantages outweigh the downsides of delaying all your Swashbuckler stuff a level...
There's also supposedly a Feat that gives you a 1st level Domain power, so that would obviate the need for a level of a Class entirely if you're willing to invest the Feats.
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Since Divine Grace is one of the major power boosters of the Paladin AND one that does not completely pertain to his role of icon of all that is LG, I am quite happy that it becomes so readily available to other builds.
That way, people who wants the power will not have to choose between Paladin-dip (and the whole code+LG baggage) and roleplaying the character they want.
A beneficial consequence will be that Paladins will be played more by players who like the concept and less by players who want the power (and run roughshod over the concept, to the dismay of many).
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Since Divine Grace is one of the major power boosters of the Paladin AND one that does not completely pertain to his role of icon of all that is LG, I am quite happy that it becomes so readily available to other builds.Except that it is also blatantly out of whack with pretty much all of the other save boosting feats or frankly any other defensive feat anywhere. I can take a feat to add +2 to one save or I can take one which will add anything between +4 and +14 to all of my saves.
Sure...but only if you've already invested in Charisma...and even then only if you put ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and invest in getting 2nd level Divine Spells (or SLAs). It's very nice, but not the most powerful thing in the world.
It was also already available from a Wand of Bestow Grace at 90 gp per fight...
Since Divine Grace is one of the major power boosters of the Paladin AND one that does not completely pertain to his role of icon of all that is LG, I am quite happy that it becomes so readily available to other builds.Except that it is also blatantly out of whack with pretty much all of the other save boosting feats or frankly any other defensive feat anywhere. I can take a feat to add +2 to one save or I can take one which will add anything between +4 and +14 to all of my saves.Sure...but only if you've already invested in Charisma...and even then only if you put ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and invest in getting 2nd level Divine Spells (or SLAs). It's very nice, but not the most powerful thing in the world.
It was also already available from a Wand of Bestow Grace at 90 gp per fight...
Why would you take it if you haven't already invested in Charisma? That's like saying "Power Attack isn't as good as you think it is, it's only good if you attack with a weapon".
The Kn. Religion restriction is kinda silly, since it requires Divine casting. Most divine casters will have 5 ranks in Kn. Religion.
It's every Oracle's wet dream, it's pretty damn good for Clerics (they want at least a 16 Cha for Channels, so it's at least 1 better than Iron Will), and it's probably going to be something Sorcerers scratch and bite to try and qualify for too (I'm sure there's a great many cheap ways to have a 2nd level Divine SLA, but at least it requiring a dip into another class makes this one a valid sacrifice).
It is the primary save booster for Divine casters who don't dump Cha, is what I'm saying.
Saying "Yeah but it stacks with iron Will" doesn't make it less good either...it makes it better.
A Feat that gives an Oracle the equivalent of all Good saves for a Feat is INSANELY good.
Bonus points for that one being the second best (arguably best, maybe) Aasimar for Cha based casters anyway.
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Why would you take it if you haven't already invested in Charisma? That's like saying "Power Attack isn't as good as you think it is, it's only good if you attack with a weapon".
It's a little more like saying "Crossbow Mastery is only good if you're already using a crossbow." Absent class features...Charisma just isn't that great. Many builds dump it entirely, which is actually a very good choice for many characters, which makes this Feat useless to them. And that's what I was getting at.
I agree that it's a really good Feat (possibly even too good), and that all Oracles forever will take it (because why wouldn't they?) I was just noting that it's not necessarily quite as ridiculous as was being stated.
it's very similar to Feat-Dip multiclassing, which is one of the things I actually liked about 4E.
Rogue Genius Games has a bunch of similar feats in their "Feats of Multiclassing" supliment as well.
Technically a druid that didn't take an animal companion could qualify as well. I doubt many would care though, since it requires a decent charisma to benefit from it.
I was surprised that they were handing out Divine Grace. Was disappointed that I only saw two save-based feats for non divine casters. Agreed that this might be too good for oracles.
Bigger topic to me is the magus archetype that gets spontaneous casting a bloodline and bloodrage. Not that its particularly good or something but it bends a lot of assumed rules about how archetypes are handled. Now changing from prepared to spontaneous caster is on the table and apparently we are open to first party MCAs. (I will note that during the play test I wish bloodrager fell more into the magus chassis. )
How the heck are you guys finding this stuff?
How the heck are you guys finding this stuff?
By reading our subscription copies of the Advanced Class Guide.
That makes me want to play a Magus more. I can't stand memorizing casters, but bloodrager is cool and comboing the two classes sounds fun to play. Hopefully the Archetype will be legal for PFS.
I like it, I'm just surprised it happened. It practically looks like they rewrote magus to be Sorcerer+Barbarian instead of Wizard+Fighter, which just opens questions like 'can we get the other way around and have a full BAB prepared caster?'. Basically its an implied rule that got broken, 'not changing casting type' so design space-wise this opens the door to other casters turning from prepared to spontaneous and vice-versa.
Are the feats/archetypes/items that grant access to these class abilities mostly focused on the class features of the new hybrid classes or are all the classes' abilities evenly covered?
Are the feats/archetypes/items that grant access to these class abilities mostly focused on the class features of the new hybrid classes or are all the classes' abilities evenly covered?
Mostly the hybrid classes. There's one thing that effectively gives divine grace to divine casters though.
Mostly the hybrid classes. There's one thing that effectively gives divine grace to divine casters though.And potentially to anyone taking a one level oracle or cleric dip.
Actually you need 2nd level divine spells and a domain, blessing or mystery to do it.
Nothing for rogues or fighters, I suppose...?
Nothing for rogues or fighters, I suppose...?
actully you'd be surprised,between the 2 feats that let you use reflex saves in place of fort and will saves, amiture swashbuckler, the feat chain that gives studied combat, and the archtype that gives sneak attack and int to damage with splash weapons, the rouge has some new toys to play with. Probably not enough for most people to see the rouge as 'viable' but at least they got stuff.
the fighters got some niffty toys as well, between the feat that grants limited martial flexibility and the 2 archetypes they get they got quite a bit going for them. one archtype replaces weapon training with martial flexability, and the other replaces armor training with mutagen and and some discoveries, mostly ones that upgrade mutagen but stuff like vistigel arms and wings are on that list to.
I just gotta know....
Is there a section on designing your own class or archetypes? something similar to the Race Builder?
Is there anything that even remotely resembles the Dark Knight from Final Fantasy, from leeching HP abilities/spells to damaging yourself to hurt your enemies badly?
How good are the prestige classes?! Is paizo still on it's Prestige-class hate, or are they actually good this time?
edit: I like the idea of handing out class abilities. I may actually yet live to see a d20 game system that does away with classes and gives you "Prime Archetypes" from which to choose your abilities from.
I just gotta know....
Is there a section on designing your own class or archetypes? something similar to the Race Builder?
Is there anything that even remotely resembles the Dark Knight from Final Fantasy, from leeching HP abilities/spells to damaging yourself to hurt your enemies badly?
How good are the prestige classes?! Is paizo still on it's Prestige-class hate, or are they actually good this time?
edit: I like the idea of handing out class abilities. I may actually yet live to see a d20 game system that does away with classes and gives you "Prime Archetypes" from which to choose your abilities from.
yes, no point based system like the ARG though but there is a chapter of class design
Nothing like the dark knight that I saw, always possible i overlooked it though, might I suggest the vitalist from dsp if your looking for something with life steal type abilities.No prestige classes at all in this book sadly :(
anyone looking specificly for book spoilers it suggest running over to the Product thred , lot of that going on over there.
The Pain Taster PrC is the coolest PrC nobody will ever get to play because the Special prerequisite is effectively impossible for a PC to get.
Actually you need 2nd level divine spells and a domain, blessing or mystery to do it.One level of Trickery Domain Cleric fulfills the prerequisites.
Nothing for rogues or fighters, I suppose...?Both get cool Archetypes, actually. The Fighter gets one giving Mutagen and Discoveries, for example.
How does trickery domain jump your spellcasting? I looked at the domain and the first power doesn't even cast mirror image or is even a spell or have a spell level.