Cthulhu's unspeakable presence question.

[Cranky Dog]

Buri wrote:

I just had a thought. Has anyone considered the idea that Cthulu casts mythic version of his spells?

You mean like his Mythic AT WILL Control Weather that will guarantee there's a 4 mile wide storm surrounding him 24/7 that will blow away any paper runes the very instant they're not in a Timestop?

Any effect on visibility and ease of travel to people hanging around at 300ft?

Also, Cthulhu is usually depicted as favoring aquatic environments. Are the runes water proof?

What am I saying. Of course Anzyr already thought of everything. It's *so* simple. Everyone does it. Haven't you been reading? Use your head!

The runes are obviously written on hundreds of tiny steamships.

[Cranky Dog]

Extra detail we haven't covered yet: Greater Dispel Magic's range.

Spell range is 100ft + 10ft/lvl
Nalfeshnee's CL: 12th
Max range: 220ft (240ft if you include the Area of Effect's 20ft radius).
Cthulhu's distance: 300ft (from center position of Cthulhu)

There's 60ft missing somewhere (80ft-20ft size from center of Cthulhu)

[Starbuck_II]

Buri wrote:

You know what'd be a perfect outcome of 'defeating' Cthulu? It turns out it was its astral projection the whole time. By time you realize this that whole kingdom/town/whatever you thought you were saving is being destroyed.

If he is on Astral Plane is at danger from Silver swords cutting his cord and instantly killing him. No save, no revive. He is lost in the Astral forever.

[Cerberus Seven]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Buri wrote:

You know what'd be a perfect outcome of 'defeating' Cthulu? It turns out it was its astral projection the whole time. By time you realize this that whole kingdom/town/whatever you thought you were saving is being destroyed.

If he is on Astral Plane is at danger from Silver swords cutting his cord and instantly killing him. No save, no revive. He is lost in the Astral forever.

Yes, I'm sure the high priest of the Outer Gods is just going to leave his silver cord completely unguarded. It's not like he can summon Star Spawn to guard it or anything. Or that you'd have to really search to find the cord in the first place. Or that his Immortality ability says that killing him just means he goes vaporous and doesn't actually die. It takes doing this twice to make him go back to R'lyeh, btw. Which, really, is a good thing. Who in their right minds wants Cthulhu dwelling forever in the Astral? That's the makings of a Multiverse-wide nightmare, right there.

[Buri]

Cranky Dog wrote:

Extra detail we haven't covered yet: Greater Dispel Magic's range.

Spell range is 100ft + 10ft/lvl
Nalfeshnee's CL: 12th
Max range: 220ft (240ft if you include the Area of Effect's 20ft radius).
Cthulhu's distance: 300ft (from center position of Cthulhu)

There's 60ft missing somewhere (80ft-20ft size from center of Cthulhu)

You'll have to choose what you're doing, moving or readying, with that standard action from being staggered.

Cthulu's range, though, is 400ft.

[rooboy]

Many people are treating this combo as if it's some degenerate thing that Anzyr came up with just to attack Cthulhu. The only thing that really has anything to do with Cthulhu is the staying 300' away part, the rest of it mostly relies on permanent/might as well be permanent spells that are freely part of a wizard's kit. The entire point he has been trying to make is that this just illustrates the balance problems inherent in the system.

And this tactic is not "new". I have heard variations on the explosive runes nuke going back to third edition. House-rule it, and move on. Most players would be fine with that, as long as you do it after the game (otherwise you're the one derailing the game) and let them rebuild their way out of it. And, frankly, it's not the only degenerate thing about high level casters. A wizard doesn't even need the rebuild, since he can just pick up some different spells and work on some other super combo.

If your problem is that he's killing Cthulhu because he's Cthulhu, then just house rule that Cthulhu is an Elder God and that the entry is one of his avatars (Hastur's entry specifically mentions this possibility, it takes little imagination to apply the same logic to Cthulhu). Boom, problem solved. It's not like Lovecraft was generally that specific anyway.

EDIT: I apologize, Anzyr, if you actually were the person who came up with this tactic more than a decade ago, I could only find threads about it going back to 2005

[Anzyr]

Cranky Dog wrote:

Buri wrote:

I just had a thought. Has anyone considered the idea that Cthulu casts mythic version of his spells?

You mean like his Mythic AT WILL Control Weather that will guarantee there's a 4 mile wide storm surrounding him 24/7 that will blow away any paper runes the very instant they're not in a Timestop?

Any effect on visibility and ease of travel to people hanging around at 300ft?

Also, Cthulhu is usually depicted as favoring aquatic environments. Are the runes water proof?

What am I saying. Of course Anzyr already thought of everything. It's *so* simple. Everyone does it. Haven't you been reading? Use your head!

The runes are obviously written on hundreds of tiny steamships.

First of all, his mythic control weather won't help. The readied action will go off the instant the tome stop ends. The runes won't be going anywhere. Cthulhu can favor water environments that's fine, won't do much to stop. The runes won't be removed simply because they are underwater, and they will only be in the water a fraction of a second, since they will be detonated the instant the time stop ends.

Also, we already covered that the odds of the caster being staggered are extremely low. And 300 ft. only requires 2 rounds to close the gap. Or a swift action if you just teleport it.

@ Boomerang Nebula - You place many individual objects in a stack directly in front of Cthulhu. They will be hit by the area version of Greater Dispel when the Time Stop ends.

@ Cerberus Seven - Oh there is a way to get +3 luck bonus to saves. It's not even hard. IF explosive runes + dispel magic is 8th grade system mastery, getting +3 luck to saves it like... 5th grade system mastery. I just don't want to spoon-feed it to you since it may hurt your system mastery development. Why don't you try figuring it out?

@ rooboy - I most definitely did not come up with it. But yes, the fact that despite trying to pick at it they just keep demonstrating that they haven't actually *read* the information highlights many balance issues.

[Cerberus Seven]

For those wondering, Staff of Power + the Fate's Favored trait (increases luck bonuses by 1). I'm guessing Paragon Surge would be used to pick up that trait and one other if said wizard didn't already have it. I'm not sure why Anzyr couldn't come down off his high horse and politely just answer the question, but there it is. So, back to the other myriad problems with this whole scenario.

[Cerberus Seven]

So I just read through the Time Stop spell description and there's a wrinkle that I think we may be missing. Namely, Time Stop doesn't stop time:

Time Stop wrote:

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you.

This begs the question: does being under the effect of Time Stop make you immune to an aura? It seems to suggest 'no', since anything like a vat of liquid nitrogen, a normal bonfire, or a simple wall can still harm you if you interact with it the wrong way. Those are just mundane hazards, too, nothing like the reality warping presence of a Great Old One.

Edit: so on a whim I looked through this discussion and, credit where credit is due, FLite suggested this exact point on page 4 of this thread.

[rooboy]

I would think the aura would effect each of your rounds during the Time Stop. But, again, the save is mostly trivial.

[Cerberus Seven]

rooboy wrote:

I would think the aura would effect each of your rounds during the Time Stop. But, again, the save is mostly trivial.

For the wizard? If built correctly, yes, assuming no natural ones happen. How about for the summoned demon? If we give it Greater Heroism to get it's Will save up to +25, it still needs a natural 15 to pass every single round it's exposed or it's staggered for 1d6 rounds. If the plan hinges on getting the summoned demon close enough to do a Greater Dispel Magic, being immediately staggered could mean the difference between hitting that distance at the right time and missing it.

[johnlocke90]

CWheezy wrote:

Joej, that house rule is terrible, and I wouldn't play a game with it being used.

Also I laughed when someone said this build is built to kill cthulu, whoa guys four spells two of which picked by every wizard what a build

Yeah, the explosive runes trick would clearly work on almost every enemy ever. And Time Stop+Gate are just amazing spells no matter what.

[johnlocke90]

JoeJ wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

If this combination hits the caster they just shrug. They then other wake up in a clone or they were an astral projection the whole time. Dying is a minor inconvenience for high level casters. And if I was being really unfair I would go the Astral Projection route since then I could use consumables (like say Explosive Runes) without actually consuming them. Ya, high level casters are really really really unfair.

In other words, there's really no point in allowing PC casters of that level into the game because there's nothing they can do that isn't a complete bore for everybody at the table.

Yeah, but we have known that for ages. Stuff like Astral Projection and Clone make the wizard essentially a god. To kill a 20th level wizard you are going to need a macguffin to track down his real hiding place(which is protected by mind blank) and somehow enter it and make it through the ridiculous array of protective spells and traps he set up before he teleports his body to another hiding place and murders you with his astral projection.

[johnlocke90]

JoeJ wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

If this combination hits the caster they just shrug. They then other wake up in a clone or they were an astral projection the whole time. Dying is a minor inconvenience for high level casters. And if I was being really unfair I would go the Astral Projection route since then I could use consumables (like say Explosive Runes) without actually consuming them. Ya, high level casters are really really really unfair.

In other words, there's really no point in allowing PC casters of that level into the game because there's nothing they can do that isn't a complete bore for everybody at the table.

Well unless they are also casters ya pretty much. But that's been known forever, hence the linear Fighter, quadratic wizards trope. And level 20 is the pinnacle of that quadratic power. Hence why people like me would like to see martial buffed.

That wouldn't make it any better if the PCs and their NPC enemies can just fight forever with neither side able to seriously hurt the other.

PResumably both sides have goals beyond just killing each other. Death does temporarily set the caster back and gives you time to do whatever you like without the other guys interference.

[rooboy]

Cerberus Seven wrote:

For the wizard? If built correctly, yes, assuming no natural ones happen. How about for the summoned demon? If we give it Greater Heroism to get it's Will save up to +25, it still needs a natural 15 to pass every single round it's exposed or it's staggered for 1d6 rounds. If the plan hinges on getting the summoned demon close enough to do a Greater Dispel Magic, being immediately staggered could mean the difference between hitting that distance at the right time and missing it.

You would be right, but isn't he the only person in the Time Stop? The wizard would be affected each round of the aura, but I don't see why the demon would be unless it also was in the Time Stoppage. For example, I would not rule that if you set someone on fire and then stopped time, that person took damage each of those rounds - his time is still flowing normally, it's just yours that is sped up. I understood the purpose to be teleport in, encounter starts, Demon commanded to ready, time stopped, wizard spreads the runes around and teleports away, time stop ends, boom.

Which sucks for the demon I suppose, but I doubt the murderhobo wizard cares.

[Buri]

To say this trick works on Cthulu is to make him utterly inept. Sure, if he's not responding, just shows up fresh on the scene like a stroll through a garden, sure, you can surprise him. However, as I've shown in the other thread about this he gets mythic contingency. That's 6 spells he basically has on him for 30 day stretches of time. With a fairly simpl contingency command like "should anything kill me cast x just before" and poof he's got something at the ready.

Plus, the double standard in tactics is utterly assinine. He's got CWI just like most any wizard but for some reason he can't use it even though he's marked as having TRIPLE treasure? That's just stupid. Basically, we've got a mythic wishing monstronsity that can crank out more/better magic items than a level 20 wizard and you think the wizard will win? I smell some poo on the mere premise. THEN, he's got hundreds of HP more and boat load of abilities and racial features that already make him a level 20 dude in his own right but he still loses? You gotta be kidding me. Point is, Cthulu can act like Shrodinger's wizard every much as Shrodinger's wizard can but better.

With his fluff that ties him close to gods, something no theorycrafted character has out of the gate, you STILL think he's such a push over even for a level 20 caster? Please...

[johnlocke90]

Tarkeighas wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

Tarkeighas wrote:

2) anzyr displays a level of exploitative system mastery that would make azmodeus proud

Hardly, this is like... 8th grade system mastery, in my honest opinion. Not even College track stuff. If people find it impressive, it's not that I'm standing to high, it's that they're standing to low.

They have grades?!! Boy did I ever go to the wrong school. I only learned boring sums and stuff.

*Edit*
Way to burn your supporters! I love a bloke who's willing to slap the faces of his opponents and friends alike. I'm not sure why you deleted your post though. Have some conviction man!

But he is right. Explosive Rune Suitcase was a very obvious strategy to me right after I finished reading Explosive Runes. The only challenge here is dealing with the aura of fear.

[johnlocke90]

Haskol wrote:

While following this has been amusing, here is my fix for the problem.

If you feel that the Great Old Ones are far too weak for what they should be (I am among this group): The creatures given stats are not the Great Old Ones, but merely avatars of them. Should they be beaten, that was merely an avatar. Should the real one awaken, nothing mortal (or previously mortal) could stop it and the world is destroyed.

If you feel that the Great Old Ones are just right based on their stats: Congrats, you beat Cthulhu with magic and he goes back to R'lyeh. There he will sleep but he will still win because he will still exist millennia after everyone involved with trapping him again have already died and been forgotten. Because that is Lovecraft. You do not get to win, just hold on a bit longer.

If you feel that the Great Old Ones are too strong based on their stats: Then you have never read Lovecraft and do not know what you are talking about.

Wizards can get immortality as their capstone ability, so Cthulhu is going to be waiting a very long time.

[JoeJ]

johnlocke90 wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Joej, that house rule is terrible, and I wouldn't play a game with it being used.

Also I laughed when someone said this build is built to kill cthulu, whoa guys four spells two of which picked by every wizard what a build

Yeah, the explosive runes trick would clearly work on almost every enemy ever. And Time Stop+Gate are just amazing spells no matter what.

How many Explosive Runes does it say you have on your character sheet? Where are they stored? What defenses do you have for them and for yourself? (Not what Schrodinger's Wizard might have, but what precisely do you have?) Which spells are in your spellbook? Which feats and skills do you have? And your stats? What gear do you own, and where is it kept? I also need a complete map of any houses/lairs/hideouts or other locations that you use, along with a complete list of defenses and the character sheets of guards, servants, or anybody else who would typically be present.

The fact that you can pull together a combination that it's possible some wizard somewhere might have, and throw it against a monster whose statblock you have full access to is not very impressive. In an actual game it would be exactly the other way around: the GM has your full stats and plenty of time to prepare, while you have only partial information about Cthulhu's abilities and have to react to what he does.

[Buri]

If I were to run Big C he would absolutely have an array of abodes and toys lined up as anything would that's been around since pretty much the beginning of time. If he were hellbent on trying to actually kill you I might not even let you roll initiative. You just die especially if you're not mythic. If you are, then I'll describe his opening volley and ask if you have anything to handle that. No? Dead. Yes? Roll initiative.

[Anzyr]

JoeJ wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Joej, that house rule is terrible, and I wouldn't play a game with it being used.

Also I laughed when someone said this build is built to kill cthulu, whoa guys four spells two of which picked by every wizard what a build

Yeah, the explosive runes trick would clearly work on almost every enemy ever. And Time Stop+Gate are just amazing spells no matter what.

How many Explosive Runes does it say you have on your character sheet? Where are they stored? What defenses do you have for them and for yourself? (Not what Schrodinger's Wizard might have, but what precisely do you have?) Which spells are in your spellbook? Which feats and skills do you have? And your stats? What gear do you own, and where is it kept? I also need a complete map of any houses/lairs/hideouts or other locations that you use, along with a complete list of defenses and the character sheets of guards, servants, or anybody else who would typically be present.

The fact that you can pull together a combination that it's possible some wizard somewhere might have, and throw it against a monster whose statblock you have full access to is not very impressive. In an actual game it would be exactly the other way around: the GM has your full stats and plenty of time to prepare, while you have only partial information about Cthulhu's abilities and have to react to what he does.

Right, no caster have or can be expected to have Dazing Spell. Or a Metamagic Rod of Dazing Spell. Or the ability to use Paragon Surge to *get* Dazing Spell. Or the ability to summon way, way, more minions then Cthulhu can. You act like Explosive Runes is the only way anyone could win. It's not. It's just a really effective tactic.

[Cerberus Seven]

rooboy wrote:

You would be right, but isn't he the only person in the Time Stop? The wizard would be affected each round of the aura, but I don't see why the demon would be unless it also was in the Time Stoppage. For example, I would not rule that if you set someone on fire and then stopped time, that person took damage each of those rounds - his time is still flowing normally, it's just yours that is sped up. I understood the purpose to be teleport in, encounter starts, Demon commanded to ready, time stopped, wizard spreads the runes around and teleports away, time stop ends, boom.

Which sucks for the demon I suppose, but I doubt the murderhobo wizard cares.

Re-read the initial strategy steps just now. Yeah, he just neglected to initially mention how he was getting the demon into range to prep the dispel and I didn't mentally fill in the blanks, that's all.

[johnlocke90]

Buri wrote:

If I were to run Big C he would absolutely have an array of abodes and toys lined up as anything would that's been around since pretty much the beginning of time. If he were hellbent on trying to actually kill you I might not even let you roll initiative. You just die especially if you're not mythic. If you are, then I'll describe his opening volley and ask if you have anything to handle that. No? Dead. Yes? Roll initiative.

Except we are on the rules forum and you are just making stuff up. As written, Cthulhu is easy to kill. He is poorly designed for a BBG. Baba Yaga is a much bigger threat if you want an end boss, because she has a good spell list.

If you want to discuss how to make Cthulhu a legit threat, that would be a great discussion for another forum.

[johnlocke90]

JoeJ wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Joej, that house rule is terrible, and I wouldn't play a game with it being used.

Also I laughed when someone said this build is built to kill cthulu, whoa guys four spells two of which picked by every wizard what a build

Yeah, the explosive runes trick would clearly work on almost every enemy ever. And Time Stop+Gate are just amazing spells no matter what.

How many Explosive Runes does it say you have on your character sheet? Where are they stored? What defenses do you have for them and for yourself? (Not what Schrodinger's Wizard might have, but what precisely do you have?) Which spells are in your spellbook? Which feats and skills do you have? And your stats? What gear do you own, and where is it kept? I also need a complete map of any houses/lairs/hideouts or other locations that you use, along with a complete list of defenses and the character sheets of guards, servants, or anybody else who would typically be present.

The fact that you can pull together a combination that it's possible some wizard somewhere might have, and throw it against a monster whose statblock you have full access to is not very impressive. In an actual game it would be exactly the other way around: the GM has your full stats and plenty of time to prepare, while you have only partial information about Cthulhu's abilities and have to react to what he does.

earlier in the thread Anzyr linked a good level 20 wizard build that covers all of this.

[Anzyr]

johnlocke90 wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Joej, that house rule is terrible, and I wouldn't play a game with it being used.

Also I laughed when someone said this build is built to kill cthulu, whoa guys four spells two of which picked by every wizard what a build

Yeah, the explosive runes trick would clearly work on almost every enemy ever. And Time Stop+Gate are just amazing spells no matter what.

How many Explosive Runes does it say you have on your character sheet? Where are they stored? What defenses do you have for them and for yourself? (Not what Schrodinger's Wizard might have, but what precisely do you have?) Which spells are in your spellbook? Which feats and skills do you have? And your stats? What gear do you own, and where is it kept? I also need a complete map of any houses/lairs/hideouts or other locations that you use, along with a complete list of defenses and the character sheets of guards, servants, or anybody else who would typically be present.

The fact that you can pull together a combination that it's possible some wizard somewhere might have, and throw it against a monster whose statblock you have full access to is not very impressive. In an actual game it would be exactly the other way around: the GM has your full stats and plenty of time to prepare, while you have only partial information about Cthulhu's abilities and have to react to what he does.

earlier in the thread Anzyr linked a good level 20 wizard build that covers all of this.

My faith in people's ability to actually read the thread has been restored! +1. Though I should mention that Wizard has *all* of the Simulacrums and honestly wouldn't even need to be bothered to do it himself.

[CrystalSpellblade]

Anzyr wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Joej, that house rule is terrible, and I wouldn't play a game with it being used.

Also I laughed when someone said this build is built to kill cthulu, whoa guys four spells two of which picked by every wizard what a build

Yeah, the explosive runes trick would clearly work on almost every enemy ever. And Time Stop+Gate are just amazing spells no matter what.

How many Explosive Runes does it say you have on your character sheet? Where are they stored? What defenses do you have for them and for yourself? (Not what Schrodinger's Wizard might have, but what precisely do you have?) Which spells are in your spellbook? Which feats and skills do you have? And your stats? What gear do you own, and where is it kept? I also need a complete map of any houses/lairs/hideouts or other locations that you use, along with a complete list of defenses and the character sheets of guards, servants, or anybody else who would typically be present.

The fact that you can pull together a combination that it's possible some wizard somewhere might have, and throw it against a monster whose statblock you have full access to is not very impressive. In an actual game it would be exactly the other way around: the GM has your full stats and plenty of time to prepare, while you have only partial information about Cthulhu's abilities and have to react to what he does.

Right, no caster have or can be expected to have Dazing Spell. Or a Metamagic Rod of Dazing Spell. Or the ability to use Paragon Surge to *get* Dazing Spell. Or the ability to summon way, way, more minions then Cthulhu can. You act like Explosive Runes is the only way anyone could win. It's not. It's just a really effective tactic.

EDIT: Nevermind. There seems to be a difference in Mythic Rank and Mythic Tiers. My bad.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed some back and forth sniping and responses to it. This thread has been unraveling quite a bit, let's bring it back around to the rules question, please.

[Buri]

Chris Lambertz wrote:

Removed some back and forth sniping and responses to it. This thread has been unraveling quite a bit, let's bring it back around to the rules question, please.

Gladly

Can you spend your wealth to gain advantage in this scenario, yes or no? If not, then PC wealth is out of the window. If yes, Cthulu gets to spend his treasure value to be genericly outfitted and not for this particular fight whatsoever.

[Cerberus Seven]

How does a mythic Wish to simply teleport out of harms way when the miniature force nuke goes off qualify as 'painstakingly optimizing'? That's not even changing anything, it's just one of the uses of that particular mythic spell. And let's not get into the swimming bit, or having a constant hurricane going around the elder horror at all times, or astrally projecting to wreak havoc without any danger to his physical body, all very VERY simple tactics implied with his list of SLAs. All of those tactics make the chances of a significant portion of the explosives going off highly unlikely.

What people have a problem with is not beating Cthulhu. He's statted, you're supposed to be able to beat him now. They have a problem with hyper-optimizing all circumstances in favor of a single PC who has unlimited wealth due to a campaign-setting specific spell that only exists in two sources ANYWHERE, as well as giving precisely detailed information on the capabilities and location of the enemy while treating said enemy, who's enough of a threat to end worlds if he's just plain bored, as a complete and irredeemable moron. There are MANY people who believe a martial vs caster disparity exists and with good reason. Insisting upon ludicrous examples like this poisons the debate from the start by giving completely unrealistic standards for the latter party to use in the discussion of balance. The ramifications of that, should such extreme and stupid examples be taken seriously, are far more game-changing that can possibly be warranted. THAT'S the problem.

I will agree that the thread has run it's course concerning the initial topic (Cthulhu's presence aura), though. As such, I'll leave this thread in favor of another.

[Buri]

That post was modded, yo. Best not stir that pot again.

[johnlocke90]

Buri wrote:

Chris Lambertz wrote:

Removed some back and forth sniping and responses to it. This thread has been unraveling quite a bit, let's bring it back around to the rules question, please.

Gladly

Can you spend your wealth to gain advantage in this scenario, yes or no? If not, then PC wealth is out of the window. If yes, Cthulu gets to spend his treasure value to be genericly outfitted and not for this particular fight whatsoever.

The GM can, but they rarely do. One of the big issues Cthulhu runs into is that he can't wear most listed gear(see the Pathfinder FAQ on monsters wearing gear), so he would need to wear homebrewed equipment if you actually want to outfit him. If the party is supposed to fight him while he wears a wide area of expensive custom equipment, then the statblock should mention this. You would run into a similar issue with a large portion of the bestiary. Dragons, for instance, never seem to convert their horde into wearable magic items, even though they definitely could.

However, I do find the idea of Christmas Tree Cthulhu very entertaining.

[Caedwyr]

So, here's an interesting question. How easy would it be for a level 20 caster to turn Cthulhu into a bunny-rabbit?

[JoeJ]

johnlocke90 wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Joej, that house rule is terrible, and I wouldn't play a game with it being used.

Also I laughed when someone said this build is built to kill cthulu, whoa guys four spells two of which picked by every wizard what a build

Yeah, the explosive runes trick would clearly work on almost every enemy ever. And Time Stop+Gate are just amazing spells no matter what.

How many Explosive Runes does it say you have on your character sheet? Where are they stored? What defenses do you have for them and for yourself? (Not what Schrodinger's Wizard might have, but what precisely do you have?) Which spells are in your spellbook? Which feats and skills do you have? And your stats? What gear do you own, and where is it kept? I also need a complete map of any houses/lairs/hideouts or other locations that you use, along with a complete list of defenses and the character sheets of guards, servants, or anybody else who would typically be present.

The fact that you can pull together a combination that it's possible some wizard somewhere might have, and throw it against a monster whose statblock you have full access to is not very impressive. In an actual game it would be exactly the other way around: the GM has your full stats and plenty of time to prepare, while you have only partial information about Cthulhu's abilities and have to react to what he does.

earlier in the thread Anzyr linked a good level 20 wizard build that covers all of this.

If you mean This One, that's character's not remotely legal, just looking at WBL alone.

Also, that wizard can't produce an Explosive Runes bomb on short notice because it doesn't say anywhere that he has a stockpile of Explosive Runes sitting around ready to use. He doesn't have the Dazing Spell feat, so he can't use that. And, in fact, he's extremely limited in the spells he can cast since he seems to have misplaced his spell book.

Finally, if the wizard gets to use abilities from Simulacra then so does Cthulhu.

[JoeJ]

Caedwyr wrote:

So, here's an interesting question. How easy would it be for a level 20 caster to turn Cthulhu into a bunny-rabbit?

I have no doubt Schrodinger's Wizard could do it without breaking a sweat.

[Dimminsy]

Let's just assume for a minute that Anzyr's plan actually works (where the BBEG has not made any plans, done no scrying, Blood Money works the way he wants it to, Legend Lore works the way he wants it to, etc).

Not exactly sure if this has been addressed (read everything I believe), but assuming we're sticking to the WBL, how exactly are we getting all these scrolls of Explosive Runes? By that I mean paying for them? Blood Money only works when you're casting a spell the same round and not for the inks/materials required to scribe a scroll so you'd still be on the hook for the scroll costs. Wish to poof a couple of them into existence would seem odd, and even then IMO they should count toward your WBL since they're "consumable" items and they count toward WBL. You'd want to ensure that the nuke actually works, twice. So to make sure it works, twice, let's assume minimum damage.

774/min(6d6) = 774/6 = 129 scrolls. x2 = 258, but scribe scroll cuts the crafting cost down to 12.5 each. Also you'd want the caster level to be as high as possible, and as far as I know only metamagic feats can be applied to spells, so 20 caster level. When using scrolls you use the scroll caster level, so (I believe) Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration or any other bonus doesn't apply to the scroll unless you have something specific. But in case I'm wrong and assuming you can add in the Ioun Stone that gives +1 to caster level, that's a 25 caster level.

Anyway, the cost:
3 spell level * 25 "caster" level * 12.5 = 937.5 gp each
937.5 gp each * 258 scrolls = 241,875 gp, and that's assuming they all get through the SR of 41 (more than likely not with a 1d20 + caster level check, max being 45, or a 25% chance for a specific scroll to work. 1-[(0.75)^258] = 99.999999999999999999999999999999% (calculator ran out of places) chance of the plan not working.).

Let's assume you apply Piercing and Maximize Spell to the scrolls (Empower wouldn't help with the cost). 774/max(6d6) = 774/36 = 21.5 = 22 scrolls. x2 = 44 scrolls, but again, 12.5 instead.

7 spell level * 25 "caster" level * 12.5 = 2187.5 gp each
2187.5 gp each * 44 scrolls = 96,250 gp, again assuming they all overcome the SR. 1d20 + 25 vs a 36 SR means a 50% chance for success on each detonation. 1-(0.5)^44 = 99.999999999994315658113919198513% chance of failure.

In order to have a 99.991% chance of success (at least 22 scrolls overcoming his SR) for one nuke, you need to drop 75 of the scrolls (math at this link putting in 0.5/75/22 into the boxes and looking at the bottom grey box). For both nukes to work with the above math, that would be a 99.9647% chance. Probably good enough to ensure he "dies both times."

That would cost: 2187.5 gp each * 75*2 scrolls = 328,125 gp. Aka 328,125/880,000 = 37.287% of all the wealth of your character. Worth it to put to sleep a being of untold death and destruction, but still very expensive.

Not too keen on item creation so these numbers may be off, but still, this shows a significant investment. This isn't free stuff, it's stuff that has to be paid for. Hopefully I did not miss the answer to this somewhere because this would be a huge waste of time lol.

[JoeJ]

Dimminsy wrote:

Let's just assume for a minute that Anzyr's plan actually works (where the BBEG has not made any plans, done no scrying, Blood Money works the way he wants it to, Legend Lore works the way he wants it to, etc).

Not exactly sure if this has been addressed (read everything I believe), but assuming we're sticking to the WBL, how exactly are we getting all these scrolls of Explosive Runes? By that I mean paying for them? Blood Money only works when you're casting a spell the same round and not for the inks/materials required to scribe a scroll so you'd still be on the hook for the scroll costs. Wish to poof a couple of them into existence would seem odd, and even then IMO they should count toward your WBL since they're "consumable" items and they count toward WBL. You'd want to ensure that the nuke actually works, twice. So to make sure it works, twice, let's assume minimum damage. <snipped for length>

These aren't scrolls, he's just casting the spell over and over again on scraps of paper. As odd as it sounds, Explosive Runes doesn't have a material component. It's a 3rd level spell, so a 20th level caster with the maximum INT on the chart can create up to 8 of them per day; more if he sacrifices higher level slots. Anzr mentioned early in the thread that he would use the Heighten Spell metamagic feat, which increases the spell level and thus, obviously, decreases the number of castings per day. Other metamagic feats could also be added as desired (Maximize Spell for example, or even Maximize + Empower), further increasing the required spell slot. (He mentioned using a Staff of the Magi, but that would actually slow things down because a staff can only regain 1 charge per day.)

As should be apparent, a suitcase nuke made of Explosive Runes takes weeks, or even months, to prepare. To be useful in combat you have to have been stockpiling them for a while, so it's not like the GM is going to be surprised that you can do this. Just the opposite, in fact; they should be keeping a close count on how many Explosive Runes you prepare each day because those are spell slots that aren't available for anything else. The wizard has, in effect, nerfed himself while he's preparing his bomb. Having a stash of Explosive Runes sitting around in your lair is also a vulnerability that clever enemies could exploit.

[EvilPaladin]

Dimminsy wrote:

Not exactly sure if this has been addressed (read everything I believe), but assuming we're sticking to the WBL, how exactly are we getting all these scrolls of Explosive Runes?

Explosive Runes wrote:

School abjuration [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range touch

Target one touched object weighing no more than 10 lbs.

Duration permanent until discharged (D)

Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance yes

You trace mystic runes upon a book, map, scroll, or similar object bearing written information. The explosive runes detonate when read, dealing 6d6 points of force damage. Anyone next to the explosive runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the explosive runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage. The object on which the explosive runes were written also takes full damage (no saving throw).

You and any characters you specifically instruct can read the protected writing without triggering the explosive runes. Likewise, you can remove the explosive runes whenever desired. Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the explosive runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.

Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature (only) can use Disable Device to thwart explosive runes. The DC to find magic traps using Perception and to disable them is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.

Note the components bit[and lack of a cost]. The runes themselves are free. So, since you are supposedly casting this on sheets of paper, 1000 costs 400gp[4sp a piece]. Halve that if you settle for parchment.

[Cranky Dog]

EvilPaladin wrote:

Note the components bit[and lack of a cost]. The runes themselves are free. So, since you are supposedly casting this on sheets of paper, 1000 costs 400gp[4sp a piece]. Halve that if you settle for parchment.

Have you no imagination?

He *obviously* uses a single large sheet of paper, enlarges it, then polymorphs himself into an Elder Witchlight (Tome of Horrors 4) which is a Fine size fey, then casts Reduce Person on himself to be ridiculously small, and then proceeds into casting and inscribing explosive runes at microscopic scale.

So you end up with a sheet filled with dot sized explosive runes. It doesn't matter if they're too small to read since they only exist to be badly dispelled.

He could even "connect the dots" into a drawing of himself flipping the bird at the GM Cthulhu.

[EvilPaladin]

Cranky Dog wrote:

EvilPaladin wrote:

Note the components bit[and lack of a cost]. The runes themselves are free. So, since you are supposedly casting this on sheets of paper, 1000 costs 400gp[4sp a piece]. Halve that if you settle for parchment.

Have you no imagination?

He *obviously* uses a single large sheet of paper, enlarges it, then polymorphs himself into an Elder Witchlight (Tome of Horrors 4) which is a Fine size fey, then casts Reduce Person on himself to be ridiculously small, and then proceeds into casting and inscribing explosive runes at microscopic scale.

So you end up with a sheet filled with dot sized explosive runes. It doesn't matter if they're too small to read since they only exist to be badly dispelled.

He could even "connect the dots" into a drawing of himself flipping the bird at the GM Cthulhu.

Nice. I prefer to put mine in a 3-ring binder[well, whatever the PF equivalent is anyhow], have it disguised as a spellbook with the title "Spellbook:Read at your own risk", and disguise my spellbook as a cookbook named something along the lines of "100 ways to cook a monster, for the adventurous chef", just so that if somebody tries to steal my spellbook at night they get the wrong one. But still, no accounting for personal taste.

[Dimminsy]

Mmm, interesting. It just seems odd to me that it wouldn't count toward your WBL more than 400 gp and some days casting. In light of the Seeds Nerf I'd say this was not intentional. Now if it came out of your WBL I'd be (a little bit more) OK with this tactic, but as is I'd say one or two of the runes activate and destroy the rest or something like that. Also, SR isn't overcome by the spell level as far as I'm seeing (only 1d20 + caster level), so I'm not seeing the use of Highten Spell feat.

[Boomerang Nebula]

Anzyr, I just noticed that you replied to my previous post, thanks for that. I think most reasonable GMs would rule in your favour on that one.

[FLite]

EvilPaladin wrote:

Nice. I prefer to put mine in a 3-ring binder[well, whatever the PF equivalent is anyhow], have it disguised as a spellbook with the title "Spellbook:Read at your own risk", and disguise my spellbook as a cookbook named something along the lines of "100 ways to cook a monster, for the adventurous chef", just so that if somebody tries to steal my spellbook at night they get the wrong one. But still, no accounting for personal taste.

Works fine unless you develop a reputation as a gourmet chef, and a rival gormand tries to steal your recipes and gets a pleasant surprise instead.

I prefer:

A precise and detailed history of the first crusade, complete with enumeration of forces and personnel, Volume 5 of 37

(If you really are dedicated, spend the first 10 pages of the book on what it says on the cover. )

[aceDiamond]

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

[JoeJ]

Dimminsy wrote:

Mmm, interesting. It just seems odd to me that it wouldn't count toward your WBL more than 400 gp and some days casting. In light of the Seeds Nerf I'd say this was not intentional. Now if it came out of your WBL I'd be (a little bit more) OK with this tactic, but as is I'd say one or two of the runes activate and destroy the rest or something like that. Also, SR isn't overcome by the spell level as far as I'm seeing (only 1d20 + caster level), so I'm not seeing the use of Highten Spell feat.

Instead of worrying about wealth, a more elegant fix is just don't allow a character to enter the game with a stockpile of pre-cast spells. Once play begins, they're free to cast all the Explosive Runes they want, keeping in mind that the more they cast in any given day, the fewer other spells they'll have available for anything else that they want to do.

[Matthulu]

aceDiamond wrote:

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

Maybe, but the hypothetical wizard probably has hypothetical minions [a.k.a. his fellow party members] to deal with these cultists.

I love Cthulhu as much as anyone, but pathfinder is not his game. It's generally a game of smash and grab and stats mean mortality, which means you can be killed, or at least banished, very quickly. Unless he gets elevated to God status, but that's not part of this conversation.