I think this thread is seriously derailed.
The OP question has been thoroughly answered (yes, you must make a save every round).
The level 20 wizard vs Cthulhu bit should likely migrate to another thread. Granted, I think there's a reason most APs stop at level 17. Shenanigans. Shenanigans like the explosive rune nuke.
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The Pathfinder or other D20 version of Cthulhu has stats and (in theory espoused by others on this thread) can be killed, perhaps not permanently, depending upon individual DM adjudication.
The Call of Cthulhu non D20 version of Cthulhu cannot be killed by a player character. (That is not to say that you can't somehow gather assistance from some other mythos being - hard as that may be, and remain sane.) The point of most CoC games I have played is to keep the cultists from succeeding in summoning this Old One, and numerous others. If the bad guys succeed, your player characters have lost. (Unless they joined the bad guys, but I digress.)
If it bothers people that PCs have a chance, however marginally, of defeating Cthulhu, then I recommend playing the CoC version of the game.
Just my own two pence.
Honestly, I would rather play Cthulhu Punk :)
It even gives you the option to nuke Cthulhu from orbit. (Okay, it's not a *good* option, since now you have just made him mad *and* radioactive. But it is an option.)
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I'm amused by how many here simply say "well the DM should come up with more houserules to make Cthulhu truly unkillable" in response to people actually using tactics against Cthulhu instead of kindly lining up to die at the hands of the octopus faced alien who got wrecked by a steamboat, of all things. As a DM, I am more willing to reward my players for pulling off something thought impossible instead of arbitrarily punishing them for my own decision to add Cthulhu into the campaign. Being a jerk to your players just generally doesn't seem like a good way to DM if you ask me.
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Okay, so basically, if you GM is willing to throw game balance out the window, and allow wizards to have consequence free infinite wealth, then yes, they will trivialize any encounter... Umm... Okay. Why are we even playing? On the other hand, if you have a decent GM who has not thrown WBL out as a balancing factor, it is a lot harder.
I have no problem with PCs coming up with awesome ways to kill cthulhu using the sort of resources that they should have at their level. Frankly, I think he is pretty killable as written with a 20+some mythic party and some prep.
@JoeJ, who wouldn't want an angry radioactive cthulhu?
(Now I feel the need for an adventure titled:
Dr. Strangestars or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Lovecraft the Bomb
Definitely needs to be a It Came From the Late, Late, Late Show game.
Preferably with a lot of alcohol)
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The decision to include Cthulhu is already a "willing to throw game balance out the window" scenario for a lot of people.
How do I know this? This thread is the only proof you need. If it wasn't an issue, this thread would have died out quite a while ago.
If you read the description for Magic Runes, the only way to set them off is to read them or fail a dispell. There is no description of chaining them together to explode or them exploding for any reason other then reading them or failure to dispell. There is certainly no talk of one going off and setting off others by proximity.
It seems to me that Anzyr's rune tactic would effectively set off and destroy one rune per dispell.
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Combat Monster.
Greater Dispel has an area effect mode.
I don't dispute that under the rules this works. I am just saying that any GM who allows this in his game has reduced pathfinder to: I go, one to two enemies dies. They go, one to two of us die. At the end, whoever has people left over casts resurrection.
If you read the description for Magic Runes, the only way to set them off is to read them or fail a dispell. There is no description of chaining them together to explode or them exploding for any reason other then reading them or failure to dispell. There is certainly no talk of one going off and setting off others by proximity.
It seems to me that Anzyr's rune tactic would effectively set off and destroy one rune per dispell.
Greater Dispel Magic Area Dispel affects every creature or object in the area, thus if the Nalfeshnee fails to dispel one of them, he fails to dispel all of them, thus triggering every Explosive Rune in a 20 foot radius.
FLite, I should stick to the martial stuff it seems. That's more my speed.
However reading greater dispell it seems to affect things over a 20 foot radius burst. It seems to me that there should be some limit to the amount of runes you can put in each five foot space. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so I agree with you in that the GM isn't doing his job.
Any NPC magic type guy who doesn't wallpaper his treasure room with them is a moron otherwise.
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One problem with the Explosive Runes spell is that it violates the games own rules for magical traps. It has no expensive material component, yet it creates a magical trap that would normally cost 1,400 gp for the spell alone.
A simple fix would be to limit the spells duration to one day. So that if you wanted a permanent trap, you'd have to use the regular trap rules.
But if the GM has switched out Resist sonic 30 for Resist force 30 in the stat block, then you get to spend the evening rolling 6d6-30 100 times. Fun, fun fun!
That's what they invented Dice Rollers for, my friend!
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Another question occurred to me. If I cast Time Stop and use then summon a demon, is the demon sharing my time frame or is it frozen in time like everything else?
And if real time is frozen will it even appear before the Time Stop ends?
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Another question occurred to me. If I cast Time Stop and use then summon a demon, is the demon sharing my time frame or is it frozen in time like everything else?
Since they're creatures, they'd be frozen in time just like everything else. Which is why Anxyr mentioned having a readied action to cast greater heroism when the time stop ended.
I wouldn't allow the greater heroism to kick in before unspeakable presence melt the demon's brain - you've got a second or so of casting to finishing before your summoned demon gets the buff - but my own solution to the issue would be to just gate a Nightwing instead - as an undead creature, it won't have brain melting issues.
Though Gate targets a creature, meaning you can't actually do it for calling purposes during the time stop; got to use your action after the time stop to do it.
The nightwing's a strong enough creature that it'll actually fry some of the runes, but since this situation assumes the wizard has an infinite amount of them, that's an non issue.
In short, the explosive runes suitcase nuke is a technically legitimate tactic, but one that I wouldn't allow, and I suspect most other GMs also wouldn't allow, simply because explosive runes suitcase nukes are kind of dumb.
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The decision to include Cthulhu is already a "willing to throw game balance out the window" scenario for a lot of people.
How do I know this? This thread is the only proof you need. If it wasn't an issue, this thread would have died out quite a while ago.
as others have mentioned, it's not killing Cthulhu, it's killing Cthulhu in a RAW cheesy manner. If a wizard answered every threat with a 1000 exploding ruins, I really can't imagine what the point of playing would be, for the other players or for the GM. It also seems to depend on playing Cthulhu the same as the GM would play a 1st level Orc warrior.
I mean replace Cthulhu with "Pazuzu" or an Archdevil, and I would probably feel the same way.
The Nalfeshnee can simply be called using summoned early and then given Heroism. It should also be able to turn off it's constant true seeing. The Nalfeshnee thus would be virtually guaranteed to succeed at casting Greater Dispel (he wouldn't provoke since Greater Dispel has range farther then Cthulhu's reach. And while Cthulhu can use Wish, there's not much that would help. If one option fails, the caster still has lots of go tos.
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So you are talking about 51 points of strength damage.)Not difficult to get.
10 (base) + 6 (enhancement; item) + 10 (morale; Blood Rage) + 8 (inherent; Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess) + 10 (size; Form of the Dragon III) + 4 (profane; Profane Pact with a lilitu) + 6 ("effective" since Greater Ring of Inner Fortitude reduces penalties by 6) = 54 STR.
Done.
Just a couple questions for clarification here:
1. What is causing the 25 damage needed to grant the +10 from Blood Rage
2. What do you do when you drop down to -5 Str when Blood Reservoir ends the next round? (54 - 51 - 8)
3. How long do you need to avoid having Restoration, Dispel Chaos, or Dispel Evil cast on you so that the Lilitu's brand doesn't go away thus causing you to lose the Profane Pact?
I'm not doubting there are answers to these questions, I'd just like to know what they are.
You can damage yourself, or have a minion (pick one) do it. You should get a Heal spell from one of the possible Summon Monsters that have it as their readied action removing all your STR damage. Of course it's easier to just use Marionette Possession/Magic Jar on a high STR minion. And I don't think Heal will remove Profane Pact, since it says only Dispel Chaos or Dispel Evil will do it.
Also some debate. Blood Price requires inflicting Str damage on yourself to get the component you want. There is an arguement that if you reduce the strength damage you inflict via ring of inner fortitude, then you don't get the complete component.
A bad argument, since Ring can't prevent damage you aren't taking. So you are definitely taking the required STR damage.
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Also some debate. Blood Price requires inflicting Str damage on yourself to get the component you want. There is an arguement that if you reduce the strength damage you inflict via ring of inner fortitude, then you don't get the complete component.A bad argument, since Ring can't prevent damage you aren't taking. So you are definitely taking the required STR damage.
You don't take damage that was prevented...
So the opposing argument isn't any better.
Also some debate. Blood Price requires inflicting Str damage on yourself to get the component you want. There is an arguement that if you reduce the strength damage you inflict via ring of inner fortitude, then you don't get the complete component.A bad argument, since Ring can't prevent damage you aren't taking. So you are definitely taking the required STR damage.You don't take damage that was prevented...
So the opposing argument isn't any better.
Actually it is since you did *take* the damage. It was merely prevented. Which wouldn't have been possible, if you hadn't taken it.
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You don't understand what it means to prevent something then.
Definition: keep (something) from happening or arising
For example, if I prevent a bomb from going off, that doesn't mean it actually exploded but did not do damage to its surroundings.
Preventing damage means 'normally you would have taken this much damage, but some force/magic/natural law/etc stopped the damage from actually occurring.'
Restoring would be 'x happened' but then was restored to its normal or original state.
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You can damage yourself, or have a minion (pick one) do it. You should get a Heal spell from one of the possible Summon Monsters that have it as their readied action removing all your STR damage. Of course it's easier to just use Marionette Possession/Magic Jar on a high STR minion. And I don't think Heal will remove Profane Pact, since it says only Dispel Chaos or Dispel Evil will do it.
You're right, Heal doesn't remove 1 brand. It removes 1d4+4 brands, also eliminating the Profane Pact.
Branding (Su)
Each time a lilitu damages a living creature with her tail slap, the wound leaves an angry and permanent red brand. In addition, the creature struck becomes staggered for 1 round from the pain. A successful DC 26 Will save negates the staggered condition and reduces the duration of the brand from permanent to 1 hour. The save DC is Charisma-based. Removing brands is difficult—each casting of restoration, dispel chaos, or dispel evil removes 1 brand. Heal removes 1d4+4 brands. Greater restoration removes a number of brands equal to the spell's caster level. Miracle and wish can remove all brands at once. The number of brands a creature gains in this manner has a cumulative series of effects, as summarized below.
There have been threads and threads about Blood Money, and this isn't one of them.
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PS: the idea that you can just casually convince what is basically a uber succubus to mark you, place her pact upon you, and then *NOT EXPLOIT THIS IN ANY WAY* says that you expect your GM to basically play the monsters as moveable stat blocks that you get to line up and knock down.
It is a TEMPTATION demon.
If you *aren't* using her gift to do what she wants, all she has to do is remove the brand.
For that matter, waiting till you cast Blood Money, and yanking the brand just as you are casting wish, leaving you with 0 Str -11 Strength and a 2d6 charisma drain and unconscious, right in the path of an oncoming cthulhu sounds like a great opertunity for her to get a little revenge.
I hope you are keeping her happy.
ETA:
54 strength.
-51 blood money = 3
-4 revoke bond = -1 - you drop unconsious. This triggers:
-10 Boiling blood expires if you go unconsious = -11
At the beginning of your next round it drops to -19.
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I would just like to say how much I love the flame wars in this site.I swear I could make a post saying "I like fluffy bunnies" and it'd devolve into the same crap.
I posted this question because the DM of my game and I were talking about Cthulhu and this question came up. It somehow changed from I have this rules question I'd like to confirm for my DM to Wizards are gods because I say so and I can cheese the game.
To the first handful of people who answered the question thankyou I appreciate it :).
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PS: the idea that you can just casually convince what is basically a uber succubus to mark you, place her pact upon you, and then *NOT EXPLOIT THIS IN ANY WAY* says that you expect your GM to basically play the monsters as moveable stat blocks that you get to line up and knock down.
It is a TEMPTATION demon.
If you *aren't* using her gift to do what she wants, all she has to do is remove the brand.
For that matter, waiting till you cast Blood Money, and yanking the brand just as you are casting wish, leaving you with
0 Str-11 Strength and a 2d6 charisma drain and unconscious, right in the path of an oncoming cthulhu sounds like a great opertunity for her to get a little revenge.I hope you are keeping her happy.
ETA:
54 strength.
-51 blood money = 3
-4 revoke bond = -1 - you drop unconsious. This triggers:
-10 Boiling blood expires if you go unconsious = -11At the beginning of your next round it drops to -19.
First of all, you use a Simulacrum. They can't betray you. Second of all, I said Profane Gift can't be removed via Heal, not Branding. Third real casters use Nocticula Simulacrums for Profane Ascension. Which also has the benefit of letting your Nocticula toss Greater Dispels without actually being there. And just to confirm that Profane Pact isn't removed by Heal:
"Once per day as a full-round action, a succubus may grant a profane gift to a willing humanoid creature by touching it for 1 full round. The target gains a +2 profane bonus to an ability score of his choice. A single creature may have no more than one profane gift from a succubus at a time. As long as the profane gift persists, the succubus can communicate telepathically with the target across any distance (and may use her suggestion spell-like ability through it). A profane gift is removed by dispel evil or dispel chaos. The succubus can remove it as well as a free action (causing 2d6 Charisma drain to the victim, no save)."
And of course Profane Ascension isn't either:
"As a swift action while in an act of passion with a willing mortal, Nocticula may grant a profane ascension. The target’s name appears in glowing Abyssal runes on Nocticula’s wings, and a crimson mark manifests somewhere on the target’s body. The target immediately gains a +6 profane bonus to any one ability score of its choice, a +4 profane bonus to any other ability score of its choice, and the see in darkness ability. A single creature may have only one profane ascension in effect at any one time. As long as the effect persists, Nocticula can communicate telepathically with the target across any distance and may use any of her spell-like abilities through the target, manifesting them as if the target were using them. A profane ascension may be removed by a miracle or wish. Nocticula can remove it as a free action, dealing 4d6 points of Charisma drain and imparting 1d10+10 permanent negative levels to the victim."
Finally as to Blood Money you have to agree to take 50 STR damage. You take it, ring prevents some, but you still already paid. And Blood Money only cares if you are immune.
Lastly, I'm not trying to impress anyone, this is all stuff anyone whose been paying attention since 3.5 already knows.
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Third real casters use Nocticula Simulacrums for Profane Ascension.
Correction: Real casters in actual games have GMs who say "No."
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Why? It's what the spell does?
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Oh good. I am going to create a simulacra that will tap the powers of hell on my behalf and bestow them on me. There is no way it will be corrupted in the process...
Also:
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
So, a lilitu is a 17 HD Temptation Demon
a succubus is a 8 HD Temptation Demon.So if you simulacra a lilitu, you get something that looks like a lilitu, but with the power of a succubus.
Cause that's how shadow illusions work.
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Nocticula Simulacrums
Because there is no way a CL 30 demon lord will find out you made a copy of him and get offended...
Sounds like a good way to come home and find out (The hard way) that your simulacra is a little more real than when you left.
(I've actually had a lot of players like Anzyr in my games over the years. They are great. Once they get going you don't have to write plot anymore. Just the fall out from their latest scheme will keep everyone busy, and by the time that mess has been cleaned up, they had come up with some new scheme that needed to be cleaned up.)
Oh good. I am going to create a simulacra that will tap the powers of hell on my behalf and bestow them on me. There is no way it will be corrupted in the process...
Also:
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
So, a lilitu is a 17 HD Temptation Demon
a succubus is a 8 HD Temptation Demon.So if you simulacra a lilitu, you get something that looks like a lilitu, but with the power of a succubus.
Cause that's how shadow illusions work.
No, you get a half HD Lilitu, which has Branding. Because that's not a HD dependent ability. Cause that's how Simulacrum works. And no there really isn't way a Simulacrum of Nocticula would be corrupted by the powers of hell, because again, it doesn't work like that. Lastly, Nocticula can try to get revenge. Attempting to attack a Wizards demiplane is pretty lolz worthy though.