It doesn't even do that, since you have to roll the dice at the same time. You don't get to know the result of the first die before you use the second.
All this really does for high Will characters is save them from that time they roll a 1. Which, really, is more power to it. F$%$ that rule, and whoever came up with it.I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make here:
"Roll twice, take highest" and "reroll once if you fail" are mathematically equivalent.
But you have to roll twice, it's not about mathematics. You can't look at your first roll and say "Hey that's a good roll, I think I actually won't use my magic item!" Likewise, you can't make a will save, get a s%**ty result, and then use the Cap - it's too late by then.
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If it were activated via an Immediate action or had a limited number of uses, that would matter, but since it's a flat "Roll 2d20, pick one" effect, it works out to the same result.
There's a difference between "roll twice and take the best" and "roll, before you know if you succeeded, decide if you want to reroll".
The Cap is of the former (superior) variety.
Neither allows you to view the first roll before you decide to make the second roll, so I fail to see the difference.
The difference is that all examples of the latter generally A.) Require an action to activate, B.) Are limited in usage, C.) Require you to take the second roll, even if it is worse, or D.) Some combination of the above.
Neither allows you to view the first roll before you decide to make the second roll, so I fail to see the difference.There's a difference between "roll twice and take the best" and "roll, before you know if you succeeded, decide if you want to reroll".
The Cap is of the former (superior) variety.
The second allows you to see the roll, you just can't know the results of the roll.
You might have an idea what that roll might or might not do, but you don't know the actual results until announced by the GM.
So if you have an alright save and you rolled a 5 and you don't want to risk it you can reroll.
CommandoDude, this item isn't a limited use item. You don't need to decide to use it before-hand. It just works. Being able to roll twice and take the better is STRICTLY superior to rolling once and deciding to reroll after. It's even just more convenient than deciding to reroll and take the higher.
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Would not buy that over a Jingasa and a clear spindle ioun stone mounted in a wayfinder.It won't protect you from confusion, hold monster, mind fog, etc. so good luck combating that den of evil enchantresses! :3
If the GM feels the compulsion to throw the party into a den of evil enchantresses solely to take advantage of their low will saves, I hope he is at least having fun because I as a player would not.
That said, as someone with a high level fighter with an 11 will save the only thing that truly scares me or my party is domination as my DPR is quite a bit higher than that of any one enemy that we run into on most occasions. The clear spindle at 1/3 the cost takes care of that ever being a problem.
Confusion, if I fail, has a 25% chance of me attacking the nearest creature. Assuming that a spellcraft check is made or a sense motive check is made there is ample time in most cases for the party to move away as the fighter initiative modifier of below 5 usually kicks in.
On a hold monster I sit there and don't kill anything which is far preferable to one rounding the cleric or bard.
On a feeblemind (why would a caster ever waste a feeblemind on a melee) I drool on myself.
In case of a mind fog I engage and do as much damage as I can that round before the confusion goes off the next round (still arguably the best tactic against something that you know is immune to dominate or charm, but it doesn't know that yet as it hasn't wasted a round finding out).
The AC bonus of a jingasa gives me a 5% better chance of fending off every blow I take versus the occasional spell that a caster MIGHT throw at me, and gives me fortification... most things can crit, most things aren't evil enchantresses.
In our group, the worst case scenario is the confusion goes off, the melee fails, and everyone that can moves away while the party stays out of range of full attack until an aoe goes off forcing a retarget.
I don't want to foul your cheerios, but the assumption that something is a "must have" either only exists in your games where you tailor the encounters to hit player weaknesses and you want to maintain that edge, or something really went wrong in one of your games one time, or I don't see the value as that terrible thing hasn't befallen me yet in which case I will find you and admit you told me so if it ever does, after which I will begin looking into improved iron will as my next feat.
The clear spindle at 1/3 the cost takes care of that ever being a problem.
I'm still not sure I understand about what Clear Spindle Ioun stone we are talking about. Clear Spindle Ioun stone as per UE sustains 'wearer' without food and water.
I don't want to foul your cheerios, but the assumption that something is a "must have" either only exists in your games where you tailor the encounters to hit player weaknesses and you want to maintain that edge, or something really went wrong in one of your games one time, or I don't see the value as that terrible thing hasn't befallen me yet in which case I will find you and admit you told me so if it ever does, after which I will begin looking into improved iron will as my next feat.
I'm not sure if you are familiar with a term 'optimizing', but my players tend to optimize their characters (not too much, but still). It means they try to maximize their characters' defenses, attacks and role specializations.
And again, my point is, that from optimization standpoint this item is must-have, not because I personally like to use mind-affecting abilities of different monsters, but because this item covers nearly 1/4 of vital defenses in game. Only for 12K.
Again, I would like to ask you if you would allow in your game item for triple this cost (36K) that allows to roll 2d20 for all attacks and choose best. Just wondering, you know.
Attack rolls come up much more often than saves against mind affecting effects.
It's a false equivalence that has no bearing on this discussion one way or another.
Attack rolls come up much more often than saves against mind affecting effects.
It's a false equivalence that has no bearing on this discussion one way or another.
I'm not so sure. My player's wizard roll for attack... something like 1 time per 4-5 gaming sessions.
I'm not so sure. My player's wizard roll for attack... something like 1 time per 4-5 gaming sessions.Attack rolls come up much more often than saves against mind affecting effects.
It's a false equivalence that has no bearing on this discussion one way or another.
Your player's Wizard will also be getting one of the least benefits out of this Cap.
Any way you slice it, making Will saves is not a core feature of the class that they do constantly.
No class in the game makes a Will save every round to accomplish something.
Quite a few make attack rolls.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'm still not sure I understand about what Clear Spindle Ioun stone we are talking about. Clear Spindle Ioun stone as per UE sustains 'wearer' without food and water.
There are rules in the old Seekers of Secrets book that allow you to activate "resonant" powers of ioun stones by placing them into the slot in a wayfinder.
The resonant power of the clear spindle ioun stone is that the bearer is protected from possession and mental control (as protection from evil)
You can read more here.
Oh, ok. Still this protection work only from ~66% of enemies in ordinary campaign (only evil, there are a lot of neutral enemies as well)
Generally, however, Neutral and Good enemies don't use spells like Dominate. Neutral because they're generally Animals, Magical Beasts, and Aberrations with low Int scores, and Good because they find it icky.
Generally, however, Neutral and Good enemies don't use spells like Dominate. Neutral because they're generally Animals, Magical Beasts, and Aberrations with low Int scores, and Good because they find it icky.
There are no charm/dominate-using neutral wizards/sorcerers/witches in your campaigns? O_o
Generally my players don't piss off people who are ambivalent towards them, as Neutral aligned characters probably will be.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Generally, however, Neutral and Good enemies don't use spells like Dominate. Neutral because they're generally Animals, Magical Beasts, and Aberrations with low Int scores, and Good because they find it icky.
Dominate is icky, but Command? Charm? Suggestion? All great ways to shut down enemies without killing them, which is totally Good's jam.
And you never have neutral casters in your game with motives opposed to the party?
Honestly? I usually run APs.
The one homebrew I AM running has my PCs on the wrong side of the law. Though there may be a few LN "bad" guys in there that will toss some mind f~+~ery at them.
Though the Ioun+Wayfinder combo doesn't work on Charm, or Command if I recall.
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High bonus. Check.
Stacks with everything. Check.
Can make nearly immune to mind-affecting effects 24 hours a day. Check.
Crazy hyperbole that refuses all arguments? Check.
There's no point in discussing this. The OP has already made up his mind on the subject and sought out confirmation bias, not a discussion.
and that almost no one agrees with him should have given him the answer
Crazy hyperbole that refuses all arguments? Check.
No problem. Let's compare.
Default Harsk, ranger 12 lvl from NPC Codex decides to battle iconic monsters with mind-affecting abilities... Succubi and in order to make it as easy as possible hires 15th level spellcaster to cast on him Mind Blank. He can afford it after all.
Succubus is only CR 7 monster, so 1 vs. 2 fight (EL 9 for 1 PC of 12 lvl) is pretty ok
Without this super item he saves vs. Dominate Person (DC 23) on 5+ (he has total +18 Will save vs spell-like ability). So its 80% of success per demon, overall it should be only 64% per enemy round not to become their slave.
I would say it's pretty tough situation for Harsk!
Now introduce this "useless" item.
Suddenly Harsk saves rise up to 96% per Dominate! So it's something like 92% per enemy round not to become their slave.
So in 100 combats with 2 succubi without Cap Harsk will become slave 36 times after 1st round. With Cap its only 8 times. Survival increased 4.5 times.
Example above could be similarly applied to Hold Monster, Confusion and bunch of other save-or-suck abilities.
This is my argument for all that care.
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First, nobody said it was useless.
Second, your numbers only really matter if you really think you're going to be fighting 100 combats involving 2 succubi.
Theoretically? It might be that good.
Realistically, not in the slightest.
Second, your numbers only really matter if you really think you're going to be fighting 100 combats involving 2 succubi.
Theoretically? It might be that good.
Realistically, not in the slightest.
Why?
I just said why.
It is an ability that applies against a certain kind of enemy, making it inherently situational.
Resist Energy: Fire looks insanely good if the only creatures you're fighting are ones that do fire damage.
Realistically, that will not generally be the case.
Likewise, this ability looks insanely good (rather than merely good) because you are constantly shoving it into scenarios where every creature (and multiple creatures in the same encounter) are targeting the same thing and/or using the same ability.
I just said why.
It is an ability that applies against a certain kind of enemy, making it inherently situational.
Resist Energy: Fire looks insanely good if the only creatures you're fighting are ones that do fire damage.
Do you understand that mind-affecting abilities include much more broader category than fire-based abilities? Nearly whole Enchantment and Illusion schools of magic, all fear effects + nearly 30% of monsters have something that is considered mind-affecting ability.
And in comparison, resist energy provides only fraction of protection against powerfull attacks, caps at 30 resistance (laughable at 13+ levels, when you are hit by Intensified, Maximized and Empowered Fireballs) + there is ability to easily modify energy type of spell, etc.
Harsk needs a 5+ to save, and you are concerned about this item that gives him a high chance of success? A cloak of resistance +3 would give him a 95% chance of success (only fail on a 1.)
That cloak costs less than the cap. And applies to more things.
If your will save is low, the benefit of the cap is low. If your will save is high, you probably have more important things to spend the money on. The maximum benefit from the cap is for characters who need an 11+, equal to a +5 bonus. But that isn't fixed: some foes have higher or lower saves, and the benefit of the cap is diminished the further your chances get from 'half'.
Let me ask this: is the Improved Iron Will (and it's siblings, Improved Great Fortitude and Improved Lighning Reflexes) feat broken? The cap provides a benefit that is not quite as good as Improved Iron Will.
Harsk needs a 5+ to save, and you are concerned about this item that gives him a high chance of success? A cloak of resistance +3 would give him a 95% chance of success (only fail on a 1.)
That cloak costs less than the cap. And applies to more things.
In fairness, Mrakvampire had Harsk buy a casting of mind blank, which would totally overlap the cloak of resistance +3 and is how (I think) Harsk is ending up with such a high chance of success in the first place. I don't have access to the NPC Codex Harsk to verify that that is the case (and that there aren't other resistance bonuses that are being stacked incorrectly with the mind blank.
Though he would be much better served by getting a potion of protection from evil in this case rather than (or in addition to) mind blank.
That cloak costs less than the cap. And applies to more things.
If your will save is low, the benefit of the cap is low. If your will save is high, you probably have more important things to spend the money on. The maximum benefit from the cap is for characters who need an 11+, equal to a +5 bonus. But that isn't fixed: some foes have higher or lower saves, and the benefit of the cap is diminished the further your chances get from 'half'.
Let me ask this: is the Improved Iron Will (and it's siblings, Improved Great Fortitude and Improved Lighning Reflexes) feat broken? The cap provides a benefit that is not quite as good as Improved Iron Will.
1. Harsk already has +8 resistance bonus from Mind Blank
2. Cap gives MUCH BETTER benefit than Improved Iron Will, cause:a) it's unlimited vs 1/day
b) it's not reroll when you are forced to use latter result even if it's worse, it's 'pick best from two rolls'
I think you missing the point that Harsk is supposed to be successful, the cap does just that increased his odds. The price is right for the item, someone compared it to improved iron will, it obviously better then improved iron will but not a lot better because it always on ability is reflected by it only working on mind effecting ability, but not all will saves. Average cost of wondrous item that grants you a feat like is what 8k to 10k, so 12k is fair price for what it does since it is better than improved iron will.
Also in your example Succubi are very smart creatures 18 int, the moment they realize Dominate is not working on this person they would move to other tactics, more than likely flying about Harsk each summoning a babau to aid other action to help in grappling Harsk,It a...
Actually in my example one item (only one!) shuts down main abilities of monster. Ok, yes, they can fly... yes, wizard enchanter also can attack with staff/dagger instead of casting spells. You miss my point entirely. What you propose is (as I see it right now, please do not be offended, no intent from my side) - "Oh, it's not a problem that there is a one item that completely shuts down melee attacks, that barbarian can probably... start throwing javelins with crappy attack"
And about steal maneuver. Yes, it can probably work, but in order to do that they have to identify this item first? How do they know that this cap is Cap of the Free Thinker? :) GM whispered? :)
on his own Harsk is dead in this encounter. the hat just help him vrs...
My example shows typical average (not best one!) Will save bonus, not entire combat capability (you should have noticed that I've never calculated how that combat will continue)
Obviously you shoud notice that Harsk has serious handicap here, cause his favorite enemy choice is subpar for this combat.
It's a pretty good item. It gives fighters and rogues an alternative to taking multiple feats to mitigate their bad Will saves. (They may not be the best characters, but at least if they can resist mind control they won't be a complete liability.)
I've never seen anyone actually buy one though.
And again, my point is, that from optimization standpoint this item is must-have, not because I personally like to use mind-affecting abilities of different monsters, but because this item covers nearly 1/4 of vital defenses in game. Only for 12K.
Yet no one has one.
Why? Because the list of "must haves" is fairly long and they include items that are not nearly as situational. Items that effect the same abilities as this one (like the cloak of resistance) and improve a characters overall effectiveness.
Like I said before this is nice to have but not needed. It's akin to high quality toilet paper on a camping trip, it's nice to have, but it's not really needed.
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I'm not sure if you are familiar with a term 'optimizing', but my players tend to optimize their characters (not too much, but still). It means they try to maximize their characters' defenses, attacks and role specializations.
I am actually quite familiar with the term, and I again offer an item that would protect from your death rain of succubi (this is beginning to seem like Colbert's Doom Bunker episode) for 1/3 the price, allowing me to put that money into other areas to improve the CONSTANTLY USED ABILITIES of my character. Buying this makes the character less effective, thus less optimal, but I don't get the feeling that you're open to rethinking your stance, which is TOTALLY ok by me, free thought and all.
House nerf it however you like as that is your prerogative but don't ask for advice and then when challenged start being condescending to people, that's not a good way to foster discussion.
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here is an idea, vary your encounters and stop using so many mind affecting effects.
Count me in the "the item is fine" camp.I agree - it can only be used once per day
At the time when this thread was made, seven years ago, the cap had a different effect. It allowed you to roll twice on every save against mind-affecting effects you made. Not just once per day, but every single time.
So the item which the people in this thread were discussing before the impending nerf was in a completely different league than what we have today.