So in September I'm going to be running Iron Gods for a group of four people that have all been playing Pathfinder for a couple of years now. I've heard that 15 point buy is not only the default assumption of Adventure Paths in terms of scaling encounters, but it also provides greater challenge to experienced players. On the other hand, a 15 point buy can really hurt MAD classes like the monk (which no one in this group is playing).
We've all been playing Pathfinder with a 20 point buy, including for Adventure Paths (none of which we were able to finish beyond level 5), and have never used a 15 point buy. What are your guys' experiences with 15 and 20 point buy? What differences, if any, do both have in the context of an Adventure Path?
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Okay. Here's one tiny little thing you can do.
Give everyone 25 points to build their characters with.
Then increase the statistics of every enemy by +1 per stat. That is the equivalence of a 25-point build, if you had a 15/14/13/12/10/8 build go to 16/15/14/13/11/9.
The end result is that enemies may get a +1 to strength or armor class and the like. It'll be a nice little boost but not overpowered like the Advanced Creature build is. And your players will have stats that are decent.
(Small note - if you go with a 25-point build, you might restrict stats to a 17 at highest before racial modifiers or a 9 at lowest.)
Both my groups are doing alright so far in RotR with just 15-point builds. (Of course, most of them did whine about being reduced to 15 points after the super-heroic levels they had been playing at in previous homebrew campaigns - the equivalent of 33- to 36-point builds.)
With a 15-point build, they will be fragile at L 1. Most of my players' front-liners put their favoured class bonus into +1 hp. They also have to play "smart", knowing how to coordinate and cooperate, and when to retreat.
It also requires a bit more coordination on the part of the players during character creation, to make sure that all the bases are covered by their characters: front-liners, divine caster, arcane caster, skill monkey (both the sneaky version and the knowledgeable version), face, etc.
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I have never used 15 point buy (my games are a fixed array at ~40pb), and only been a player in games with 25 point buy. The AP's feel *comfortable* in the 20-25 range, but even with my group's high pb, it still gets challenging at times. I can easily see a 15pb game adding an extra layer of difficulty, especially at lower levels. Folks typically won't play a cleric, monk, or paladin right out of the can, and unless you house rule fighters to 4+INT, the tank may have only a single skill rank (that being the one he gets from being human). Unless you have an oracle or bard, there will be no party face.
Super low pb will usually all dump mental stats, and play mostly humans and half-humans since they have no negative scores.
YMMV, but unless you're specifically looking to add that extra layer of challenge on, super low pb isn't the way to go.
I would say that it depends on the degree to which you plan on enhancing the difficulty of the combat encounters in Iron Gods. If you plan to run an AP as written, then a group of four players with over a year of play experience with the system and a party of four 15 point buy PCs, they will find the encounters to be of little challenge, barring a few exceptions in each AP. As APs are written with the assumption of groups that have an experience range of just starting to roughly six months of play, stated at one point by James Jacobs, encounters are usually very forgiving to non-optimal builds. Players with a good understanding of tactics and some of the more effective spells, items, and abilities in the vast toolbox that is Pathfinder will be able to breeze through encounters with just a 14 in their primary stat that newer players with an 18 might find challenging. It's really all about understanding your group.
That is my experience, at least. I've run a group of four 15 pt buy pcs run by experienced players through the first two books of Jade Regent and the content, as written, would very rarely lead the characters to expend resources. I've had to rebuild enemies, add enemies, and adjust tactics in most encounters to make them have enough tension to engage the players and justify the use of the rare and precious time we are all free and able to tell stories together. My players aren't the reincarnations of history's finest generals and they aren't using the flawlessly mathematical idealizations of their classes but they do understand the effectiveness of group buffs and abilites that remove the threat that enemies pose without chewing through their health pools.
My take is that in this case knowledge is in fact power, and for experienced players that enjoy a challenge in their Pathfinder 15 points is more than enough.
That's for running the Paizo APs as written though. If you are comfortable making changes to scale up the challenge for your party then use whichever point buy you like. I happen to rather enjoy the process of enhancing encounters myself.
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I personally go with 25 point buy, but with stats capped at 16 before racial mods, and only one stat below 10, and that no lower than 8 also before racial mods.
This has the advantage of powering down SAD classes slightly, and otherwise results in the same 'top 3' stats as highly optimized 15 point-buy, meaning that you're generally as safe using the APs as written as you would be using 15 point-buy. And all while giving the characters an appropriately impressive and heroic stat spread.
It really works quite well.
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We have been using 20 point buy for the last few games. I definitely feel it really helps the MAD classes (Paladin, Monk, Cleric). I don't think I would ever stray from Fighter/Barb/Rogue/Wizard if I had to play with 15pt buy. Our group is pretty good at optimizing, but at least with me as a GM they kind of need to be ;)
I would recommend using the 15 pt buy.
Try it out!
Having played with both 15 & 20 point buys fairly frequently, I will say that 15 point buy actually favors MAD in certain ways. No, you won't have really high scores in anything, but it is quite easy to have positives in everything. Twenty point is better for SAD in that you can get away with that one Ability at eighteen without knocking all your other Abilities down into negatives.
Yes, I prefer twenty point between the two, but I don't find it that difficult to adjust to 15.
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I'm a fan of 15 PB, but it really depends on your player group. You want them to be able to enjoy themselves. Some players just aren't happy unless they have that 20 to start.
If your players are hesitant but willing to try it, I say go for 15 PB, with the understanding that if things are too tough you may decide to bump it up.
In my experience the idea that you can't play MAD characters at 15 PB is a myth. It mostly involves revising your expectations about what ability scores are "needed" versus "wanted."
The changes in my opinion are relatively minor unless your group is hyper optimized.
Changing from a 15 to a 20 point buy makes your PCs more durable and more aggressive. They can handle more encounters per day with fewer stops for rest and expanding less resources, there by completing the AP more quickly.
It will also reduce the PC death rate due to the ability to defeat encounters more quickly and take less damage from said encounters.
You really do not need to make any changes to an AP with a 20 point buy, it will just have a more rapid pace.
Addendum: This is not true for parties that hyper optimize. Regardless of the point buy, some parties are going to make characters that chew through encounters like wet tissue paper.
For that type of personality/play-style, a 15 point buy will minimize extra work on your part.
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Why can't you build a paladin with 15 point buy?
it can be STR 14 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 14 pre racial, which is fine for an AP.
@OP
The APs are quite easy even with the assumptions that alrady are in place, do you want to make it even easier for experienced players with giving them a higher point buy?
As I said above, just let them build their characters with 25 points. Then add +1 to each stat for the encounters. If you use Hero Labs or similar software it's quite easy to do. And it balances the playing field.
Discuss it with your players, if they want a more challenging game then put them on 15 point buy, otherwise if you leave them with 20 point buy, enforce no stat higher than 16, and no dropping stats below 10 before racials.
I think this is what I'll do (15 point buy), except I'd allow only one stat to go below 10 and never below 8, and the maximum 16 before racials.
As I said above, just let them build their characters with 25 points. Then add +1 to each stat for the encounters. If you use Hero Labs or similar software it's quite easy to do. And it balances the playing field.
Given what I've seen these specific players do with 25 point buy characters, I probably won't do this. That being said, you did give me a good idea with a campaign that would be deliberately high level yet not becoming mythic.
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It might be useful to know why the group has never advanced beyond 5th level. Are the players citing the point buy as a reason? Are they looking for more challenge or less?
This is one of those questions that will depend more on how your players build than anything else. Are they going to take the extra 5 points and continue to dump everything except core stats? Are they going to use the extra points to bump up stats that aren't as meaningful (e.g. high charisma wizard or fighter)? You know your group better than we do.
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This is one of those questions that will depend more on how your players build than anything else. Are they going to take the extra 5 points and continue to dump everything except core stats? Are they going to use the extra points to bump up stats that aren't as meaningful (e.g. high charisma wizard or fighter)? You know your group better than we do.
Yes. Without context, the discussion is pointless.
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I play with extremely experienced gamers so I run all my AP's. one-offs, etc at 15 point buy in. I limit max starting abiity scores, including racial bonus to 18, and minimum to 9. I like the 1st ed. feel 15 point buys have. I remember when a +1 bonus was great and anything better epic lol.
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This is one of those questions that will depend more on how your players build than anything else. Are they going to take the extra 5 points and continue to dump everything except core stats? Are they going to use the extra points to bump up stats that aren't as meaningful (e.g. high charisma wizard or fighter)? You know your group better than we do.
This is true. Barring rules that enforce one or the other (which my rules do, for example).
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As a GM that ran an entire AP from start to finish enforcing a 15 point buy, I can honestly tell you that the difference between 15 and 20 is almost completely indistinguishable.
I've had players try to tell me that hybrid, MAD classes are "unplayable" at a 15 point buy. People just need to realign their expectations for these classes.
If your concept is to throw down lots of spells that require saving throws, your bard will have to sacrifice some melee capabilities to pump that Charisma a bit. Or if they want to be heavy on skills, something else will have to suffer a bit. That's the entire point of hybrid classes.
So, as long as your expectations of what classes like Paladins, Inquisitors, Bards, Magi, etc. are kept at a realistic level (either choose 1-2 specialties, or be a jack of all trades/master of none), a 15 point MAD class can be a lot of fun to play with.
Okay. This is my opinion on 15 vs. 20 point builds.
With 15 point builds you'll likely have several 10s and an 8 so that the player can build a couple key stats to a higher level. I've seen people comment on 15/14/14/10/10/8 builds before. It's ultimately boring.
Providing players with that 20 point build makes it more likely you'll see a couple 12s or 13s popping in there. A stray point might go into a stat... and encourage later on for a player to try and boost it with the level 4/8/12/16/20 stat boost to get an actual bonus.
You might also see no stats below 10 (and you could always enforce that rule if you wanted) or kept to a 9 (before racial adjustments at least). That helps vary things a bit.
Here's another question: Core races only, or do you allow the Advanced Race Book (or whatever it's called)?
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So, as long as your expectations of what classes like Paladins, Inquisitors, Bards, Magi, etc. are kept at a realistic level (either choose 1-2 specialties, or be a jack of all trades/master of none), a 15 point MAD class can be a lot of fun to play with.
This is the key point. If you want a 16+ strength for your paladin, you're not also going to have a 16+ charisma. A smite with a 14 charisma is still a great bonus and scales just fine as you go up levels.
You can build a monk with a 15/14/13/12/10/8 array and level 8 you will have. If you're complaining that you can't do as much damage as the fighter who maxed out strength - you can also do a lot of things that fighter can't do... that's not a problem, that's the way it should work.
I prefer 20 point buys over 15. I find that 15 point buys encourage min-maxing too much. With a 15 point buy, I can make my ranger. With a 20 point buy I can make my ranger and make him a bit resourceful and suave.
You can still be resourceful and suave with a 10 INT or CHA over a 12. The only difference is a numerical difference of 1 to the attribute, but you can still roleplay him however you'd like.
You must certainly can not. Your skills and attributes represent what the character is capable of and should be taken in to account when role playing.
A character with a 10 in Acrobatics with DEX 20 is someone who is naturally very agile and has expanded that natural talent with some training.
A character with a 10 in Acrobatics with DEX 8 is someone who is naturally clumsy and has overcome that limitation with a lot of hard work and training.
These are not the same and should not be played the same. Obviously this is an exaggerated example but the concepts are the same.
As I said above, just let them build their characters with 25 points. Then add +1 to each stat for the encounters. If you use Hero Labs or similar software it's quite easy to do. And it balances the playing field.
I don't see how your math pans out. If you bumped a monster with class levels from elite array up to a 20 point buy it would probably be worth less than a full CR worth of XP on that single monster. Putting a monsters stat array at a 9 point buy (what you are suggesting) isn't worth anything.
The easiest way to adjust for a 20 point buy on PCs is just allocating more XP to any encounter. A CR1 encounter normally worth 400XP becomes a CR1.25 encounter worth 500XP by adding an extra 100XP worth of threats. CR1.25 now being an "average" challenge for a 1st level party of 4 or 5; bumping the parties effective APL above that of their actual level just as if there was a 6th member. Halfway between CRs all the way up the chart to account for 1/2 a CR of difficulty without ever adjusting any monsters stats.
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You can still be resourceful and suave with a 10 INT or CHA over a 12. The only difference is a numerical difference of 1 to the attribute, but you can still roleplay him however you'd like.You must certainly can not. Your skills and attributes represent what the character is capable of and should be taken in to account when role playing.
A character with a 10 in Acrobatics with DEX 20 is someone who is naturally very agile and has expanded that natural talent with some training.
A character with a 10 in Acrobatics with DEX 8 is someone who is naturally clumsy and has overcome that limitation with a lot of hard work and training.
These are not the same and should not be played the same. Obviously this is an exaggerated example but the concepts are the same.
I think you kind of missed his point. A character with 10 Dex and 10 Acrobatics is not significantly different from a character with 12 Dex and 10 Acrobatics. Roleplay him as lightning quick and/or fast? Probably not, unless you know you are "bluffing" or otherwise fibbing about your own capabilities. Anyone can roleplay resourceful and suave no matter what their stats. Whether anyone buys it will depend on the skills and/or stats. And then there is a matter of perspective. That Dex 10, Acrobatics 10 character is going to seem pretty darn quick to someone with a 6 Dex and 0 Acrobatics.
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Going from 15 to 20 point buy isn't that big a deal. You basically get a +1 modifier in a primary stat or +2 modifiers to other stats. You probably wont notice that difference in the game.
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If I want to roleplay "the strongest man on Earth" with only a 6 STR, there's nothing preventing me from doing so. Will my character embarass himself often? Absolutely. But there's no reason why that can't be part of his personality. After all, a character's personality absolutely is not dictated by stats. If that was the case, we would need accompanying stat blocks for characters featured in Pathfinder Tales to prove they're actually capable of performing the tasks they're written to do.
If I want to roleplay "the strongest man on Earth" with only a 6 STR, there's nothing preventing me from doing so. Will my character embarass himself often? Absolutely. But there's no reason why that can't be part of his personality. After all, a character's personality absolutely is not dictated by stats. If that was the case, we would need accompanying stat blocks for characters featured in Pathfinder Tales to prove they're actually capable of performing the tasks they're written to do.
you can't role-play The Strongest Man on Earth with a strength of 6, you can certainly role-play someone with Delusions of being The Strongest Man on Earth with a strength of 6. but until you build up that strength thats all they are, Delusions:)
I`m curious: Why do those of you DMs in this thread who recommend forbidding or extremely limiting low stats, do so? No weaklings/butter-fingers/chronically ill/simpletons/fools/socially inept concepts allowed? Or is it to prevent "unmanageably" high stats for the trade-off? Or some other reason? I'm not attacking your suggestion, I merely don't understand it.
Because often at higher levels those high stats become part of an unmanageable system. And I'm one who doesn't like really low stats saying this... but I've noticed that the group that rolled really well? Are breezing through RotRL so far.
The general belief by that group is that nerfing the stats makes characters less likely to become overpowered. Because you know stats can't be boosted using magic items and the like. Personally I feel that nerfing the magic works just as well - because how many magic items just get sold because they're not of use?
But if someone has high stats but half the gold, then they're not going to be buying a Belt of Buff Everything. They'll have to pick and choose and be cautious with their gold.
Assuming you even let them buy magic items.
But then, I'm old-school AD&D and dislike the Monty Haul aspect of more modern D&D and Pathfinder. Mind you, my players like it so I tolerate it. But that doesn't mean I don't see alternatives. And again, having all that gold to buy overpowered magic items is half the problem. As is the existence of those items to begin with.
I`m curious: Why do those of you DMs in this thread who recommend forbidding or extremely limiting low stats, do so? No weaklings/butter-fingers/chronically ill/simpletons/fools/socially inept concepts allowed? Or is it to prevent "unmanageably" high stats for the trade-off? Or some other reason? I'm not attacking your suggestion, I merely don't understand it.
I would do it in order to maintain the challenge of the game, particularly at higher levels - and particularly for spellcasters.
The APs and modules (except for PFS scenarios) have been written for 15-point build characters. If a wizard/cleric/druid/other nine-level caster is allowed to pump up his spellcasting ability score, then the adventure's foes are far more likely to lose against his correspondingly higher spell save DCs. The same goes for that super-high Strength raging barbarian/smiting paladin, etc.
Sure, the GM can change the AP/module, but one of the reasons for buying the AP/module in the first place is to cut down on the time the GM needs to spend on game preparation. I've seen the effects of too-high ability scores, and have suffered the consequences of the constant race to provide significant foes to challenge that party.
Besides, if - after some levels - the party is obviously suffering due to un-coordinated character choices, etc., the GM can always plant a McGuffin to give them a power-up. On the other hand, if it's poor tactics and bad behaviour/roleplaying decisions (e.g., "You spat in the mayor's face?!? That's going to have consequences.") ... then they should learn the hard way, IMHO.
I prefer 20 point buy and if a player is good at optimizing you can't really stop him by banning low stats. He will just find another way to do what he wants to do.
So, it's not really the low stat the bothers you but the high stat? Why not just impose a high cap? I figure, if anything, a low stat would increase the challenge? Just wondering. In my experience, I've seen a number of well-played, enjoyable characters with competence deliberately balanced by a weakness represented by a low stat.
I prefer 20 point buy and if a player is good at optimizing you can't really stop him by banning low stats. He will just find another way to do what he wants to do.But won't he be able to do even more with higher stats?
Yes, but my point is that if a player truely intends to powergame the 15 pt buy is not stopping him so it won't matter. There is very little difference between 15 and 20 if someone intends to powergame. The best thing you can do is restrict magic items and certain abilities while asking the players to tone it down.
So, it's not really the low stat the bothers you but the high stat? Why not just impose a high cap? I figure, if anything, a low stat would increase the challenge? Just wondering. In my experience, I've seen a number of well-played, enjoyable characters with competence deliberately balanced by a weakness represented by a low stat.
I don't mind one ability score being dumped (preferably not below 8 before racial adjustments). As you pointed out, it can be interesting to have a character with a flaw. What I don't like seeing is a player over-doing it. That smacks of over-the-top min-maxing to me.
Plus, a character is supposed to be functional in the game world, and too many dump stats will lead to party disaster. For example, if the fighter has Int 8, Wis 8, and Cha 8, he's not just hamstringing himself, but he's also a liability to the party with his penalty to social skills, penalty to Will saves (already a poor save for a fighter) and Perception skill checks (not a fighter class skill), and reduced skill points (for a class that already doesn't get that many, and therefore unable to make up for most of the damage done by the other low ability scores).
As an aside, one of the differences between PF and 3.5 was recently brought to my attention (I had only grasped part of it before). Death is at the negative value of a character's Constitution score, and not (as I had previously thought it was) at the "greater value" of either -10 hp or the negative value of the Constitution score. So anyone dumping their Con score is asking for trouble.
As a second aside, I'm running two different groups through Rise of the Runelords. One group as a whole has dumped Wisdom (all have Wis 8 except for the dwarf bard, and he only has 10), the other has done a similar number on their Charisma. This was not pre-planned, it just happened that way. But it does mean that the two parties are facing certain (different) problems. It also has lead me to the decision that the next time we have group-wide character creation, I'm going to insist that it occurs as a group so the players can keep an eye on what's going on with the other characters and hopefully plug any "holes" in the party make-up.
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This may not help you, but this is a house rule I am playing with for Iron Gods:
By RAW, one gets an ability score boost at 4, 8, 12 etc. You increase a single stat by one point. This bonus encourages SAD characters to hyper-focus and provides very little help to MAD characters.
My system was designed to undo that.
Instead, at each level, you gain 1 point buy point. You may spent it immediately or save it. For example, if you had an 11 Int at level 1 (not counting magic or racial boosts), upon reaching level 2, you could spend your one point buy point to increase your Int to 12. However, you could not increase your 15 Str to 16 Str because that costs 3 points.
I extended the PB table for people to use when leveling up (I don't let people start with a 19 before racial mods).
Addition to PB table:
19=21 pts
20=26 pts
21= 31pts
22= 37 pts
Basically, you get a lot more boost out of increasing poor stats. You can turn a MAD build like:
14, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10
into
16, 16, 16, 14, 10, 10.
While a very focused point buy like this:
18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8
can either do this:
22, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8
OR
20, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10.
I prefer 15 pt buy. I believe it gives you more room as a GM, and supports/fosters characters becoming awesome in what they experience.
15 points make mad classes difficult to play. 20 points make mad classes better but if you want to stop the obvious extra power sad classes will gain from that just set the cap pre-racials at 16.
15 points makes a bit harder for the MAD classes to play outside their role at all so less charismatic fighters and monks. Not that you see them much in the first place. Since I like to play with my points in odd ways (dwarven sorcerers and such), I prefer 20 point buy.
Although another house rule I see locally is to start at 15 point buy, but have ability score boosts at every even level with the restriction that you can't pick the same score twice in a row.
I do allow the Advanced Race Guide, although right now I'm at a bit of the stage were I would like to see more core races in my games, so I might change that for my next game.
We are playing Kingmaker with a 25 points buy. It´s a really good way to have powerful (yes!!) Monk or Paladin get along with the wizard. But on the other hand we don't allow any ressurection spell, archetypes or items to keep the players affraid by death, so we must have strong characters!
Works very well, and it's fun because we can play not the best things and being usefull at the same time!
This may not help you, but this is a house rule I am playing with for Iron Gods:
By RAW, one gets an ability score boost at 4, 8, 12 etc. You increase a single stat by one point. This bonus encourages SAD characters to hyper-focus and provides very little help to MAD characters.
My system was designed to undo that.
Instead, at each level, you gain 1 point buy point. You may spent it immediately or save it. For example, if you had an 11 Int at level 1 (not counting magic or racial boosts), upon reaching level 2, you could spend your one point buy point to increase your Int to 12. However, you could not increase your 15 Str to 16 Str because that costs 3 points.
I extended the PB table for people to use when leveling up (I don't let people start with a 19 before racial mods).
Addition to PB table:
19=21 pts
20=26 pts
21= 31pts
22= 37 ptsBasically, you get a lot more boost out of increasing poor stats. You can turn a MAD build like:
14, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10
into
16, 16, 16, 14, 10, 10.
While a very focused point buy like this:
18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8
can either do this:
22, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8
OR
20, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10.
I absolutely adore this idea, and now plan to steal this concept for use in all of my own future campaigns!