The superstitious barbarian is either for parties with poor teamwork or parties with excellent teamwork. Being able to buff the fighter is an advantage it has against the barbar, but not against every other class in game (except most monks).
The barbar is also great in parties where the casters want to focus on harming the enemy (via BFC, SoL, SoD, Summons, ect) instead of buffing allies.
Barbarian rage might run out in some parties with some GMs under some play styles. Conservative casters plus wand of CLW can make for a very long adventuring day. Like a party with mainly druids could go on for so long that the barbar might run out of rage. It seems to me like the druid spell list lends itself to multi-use spells like call lightning, produce flame, and summoning. Arcanes have summoning, spectral hand + frigid touch, telekinesis, planar binding, Animate Dead, ect. So even they could go awhile.
It was also fun when I was Dominated (sorta...still not sure what the hell that effect was, and I rolled a 1 on it) and the order was "Kill or incapacitate your teammates by any means necessary". Turns out, I'm basically immune to the party spellcasters via Eater of Magic and Strength Surge getting me out of the Sorcerer's favored Icy Prison spell.Were this to happen I would deeply regret enervating you to death while flying out of reach. I would still do it you understand but I would feel bad afterwards...:)
Sadly, with Ghost Rager, Barbarians have a pretty good touch AC. Fortunately, getting an order that is against your nature would usually give the character a 2nd will save with a +4 bonus... Or the Barbarian could use Clear Mind and/or Eater of Magic, getting up to 4 different saving throws!
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Fighters are deeply flawed because they are supposed to be good at fighting. They aren't.Fighter are good enough to impose the DEAD condition on anything they full attack.
How much better at fighting do they need to be past that point?
Every martial class has good DPR on a full attack.
However, Fighters have terrible mobility, terrible saves and terrible tools to deal with anything other than AC.
That's not being good at fighting, that's being good at standing still and full attacking, and at best, being mediocre at fighting.
The best solution for the Fighter's mobility seems to be dipping Horizon Walker for three levels and getting the Dimension Door SLA. Then you can take the Dimensional Agility feat line. Unfortunately they aren't Combat Feats.
On the one hand, the Barbarian (or anyone) can also take the combo, and with Beast Totem he only needs to go up to Dimensional Assault. Or he can take Dimensional Dervish and take a different Totem line, or otherwise free up some Rage Powers. Eldritch Knights can do it with their regular spellcasting, and Magi can do it with just the first feat, using it with Spell Combat.
On the other hand, the Fighter can more easily afford all those feats. He can go all the way up to Dimensional Savant and use the Outflank teamwork feat with himself.
He could also go Archer, but then he's up against the Zen Archer and Ranger. Those comparisons are probably even more unfavorable toward the Fighter.
As for the saving throws, the best solution is probably Dwarf + Steel Soul + Glory of Old.
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One encounter took about two hours to complete because, even though they all ended up being able to fly, the enemy largely spent its time hundreds of feet in the air and a flight speed of 60 doesn't really cut it outside. The fighter never actually managed to reach melee with the thing. He spent much of the fight readying to throw a tanglefoot bag if it came in range (it never did) until I could finally get round to casting fly on him. Two of them only managed to get in range because I dimension doored them there.
Why did the fighter not pull his bow out and start shooting?
Even if not his primary weapon, it was what he used Weapon Training II on right?
He could also go Archer, but then he's up against the Zen Archer and Ranger. Those comparisons are probably even more unfavorable toward the Fighter.
Not really. After you start adding in weapon training and weapon specialization, the fighter starts looking pretty good.
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One encounter took about two hours to complete because, even though they all ended up being able to fly, the enemy largely spent its time hundreds of feet in the air and a flight speed of 60 doesn't really cut it outside. The fighter never actually managed to reach melee with the thing. He spent much of the fight readying to throw a tanglefoot bag if it came in range (it never did) until I could finally get round to casting fly on him. Two of them only managed to get in range because I dimension doored them there.Why did the fighter not pull his bow out and start shooting?
Even if not his primary weapon, it was what he used Weapon Training II on right?
He could also go Archer, but then he's up against the Zen Archer and Ranger. Those comparisons are probably even more unfavorable toward the Fighter.Not really. After you start adding in weapon training and weapon specialization, the fighter starts looking pretty good.
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.
Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
He could also go Archer, but then he's up against the Zen Archer and Ranger. Those comparisons are probably even more unfavorable toward the Fighter.Not really. After you start adding in weapon training and weapon specialization, the fighter starts looking pretty good.
A fighter specc'd for melee would not stack up well. A fighter focusing on archery would stack up as well in terms of DPR and AC, but not anything else.
One encounter took about two hours to complete because, even though they all ended up being able to fly, the enemy largely spent its time hundreds of feet in the air and a flight speed of 60 doesn't really cut it outside. The fighter never actually managed to reach melee with the thing. He spent much of the fight readying to throw a tanglefoot bag if it came in range (it never did) until I could finally get round to casting fly on him. Two of them only managed to get in range because I dimension doored them there.Why did the fighter not pull his bow out and start shooting?
Even if not his primary weapon, it was what he used Weapon Training II on right?
He could also go Archer, but then he's up against the Zen Archer and Ranger. Those comparisons are probably even more unfavorable toward the Fighter.Not really. After you start adding in weapon training and weapon specialization, the fighter starts looking pretty good.
The Zen Archer also gets Weapon Specialization, in fact it gets a whole pile of bonus feats, some of which he gets earlier than the Fighter. And he doesn't need to spend two on Rapid Shot and Manyshot).
The One thread linked earlier has an in depth comparison between Zen Archer Monk and Archer Fighter. The Zen Archer has superior offense at low levels (more bonus feats, including early Improved Precise Shot) and at high levels (Ki Focus Bow), with the Fighter being comparable at the mid levels. It's much better defensively, with much higher saves and Touch AC. And it has better utility with more skill ranks and Qinggong SLA's.
As for the Ranger, Instant Enemy shenanigans aside, it's better than the Fighter against favored enemies and worse without it. It does have the edge in utility, with an Animal Companion, many more Skill ranks and class skills, and (albeit limited) spellcasting. Its bonus feats, though fewer, do allow you to ignore prerequisites, which means it also gets early Improved Precise Shot.
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.
Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
*yesssssssss*
This is I what I think constitutes a good martial. RWBY is nice, but a lot of their appeal is spectacle, the combat lends itself to something more real-time than turn based.
It was also fun when I was Dominated (sorta...still not sure what the hell that effect was, and I rolled a 1 on it) and the order was "Kill or incapacitate your teammates by any means necessary". Turns out, I'm basically immune to the party spellcasters via Eater of Magic and Strength Surge getting me out of the Sorcerer's favored Icy Prison spell.Were this to happen I would deeply regret enervating you to death while flying out of reach. I would still do it you understand but I would feel bad afterwards...:)
Assuming you can hit my Ghost Rager boosted touch AC, and had dispelled both my Air Walk and Winged Boots beforehand, certainly.
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Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
Interesting show.
I don't think Pathfinder is the game system you are looking for. I would recommend either the HERO system or GURPS as better suited to your desired style of play.
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
Interesting show.
I don't think Pathfinder is the game system you are looking for. I would recommend either the HERO system or GURPS as better suited to your desired style of play.
So spellcasters get to do crazy anime naruto magic, but martials continue to be limited by realism.
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
Interesting show.
I don't think Pathfinder is the game system you are looking for. I would recommend either the HERO system or GURPS as better suited to your desired style of play.
Or I could just play a Psychic Warrior (or Psion/Slayer) and do 90% of it. The problem is I should be able to do that without needing a casting system to support it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.
SQUEEEE! @.@*
** Drops everything and runs to Rooster Teeth **
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.
Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
*yesssssssss*
This is I what I think constitutes a good martial. RWBY is nice, but a lot of their appeal is spectacle, the combat lends itself to something more real-time than turn based.
Real time isn't that much different than turn based. For example, WoW PvP is probably the closest videogame analog to d20 combat that I've seen, and all the same pros and cons, and same thinking goes miles in both.
Most people mock MMOs for "aggro" but that's just against computer foes who have no human mind backing them. But other PCs? Well those have human minds, just like GMs, and that's where the aggro thing falls apart. Your "aggro" comes from how much of a threat real people consider you, and no matter how much you insult their mothers (I.G. taunt) they are going to murder your healer/artillery if you don't do something about it.
Unrelated Note: Concerning the barbarian and buffs, I'm currently playing a dedicated Healer/Buffer in a game right now, and if given the choice between a Fighter and a Barbarian w/ Superstition, I'd take the Barbarian...every...single...time. I'll have to use fewer resources on the Barbarian, use temporary HP / damage mitigation as an option, and worst case scenario the Barbarian can just delay (if convenient).
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.SQUEEEE! @.@*
** Drops everything and runs to Rooster Teeth **
Yeah Anzyr, thanks for reminding me.
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So spellcasters get to do crazy anime naruto magic, but martials continue to be limited by realism.
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
Interesting show.
I don't think Pathfinder is the game system you are looking for. I would recommend either the HERO system or GURPS as better suited to your desired style of play.
There is little distinction between the martial/magic in either system. It is all thematics.
I can define an energy blast as ki energy coming from my fists, a wizards fire ray, or a plasma gun. Thematics aside all are resolved with the same to-hit roll and the same amount of damage of the specified energy type.
Run up walls? Innate martial power or wizards spell, take your pick. The only difference is going to be the limitations and advantages purchased (if any).
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Or I could just play a Psychic Warrior (or Psion/Slayer) and do 90% of it. The problem is I should be able to do that without needing a casting system to support it.
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
Interesting show.
I don't think Pathfinder is the game system you are looking for. I would recommend either the HERO system or GURPS as better suited to your desired style of play.
You want to redesign core assumptions of the game system.
I point you towards game systems that already have everything you are looking for in the existing mechanics.
You reply back, "I don't want to move to a game system that already matches my expectations, I want this game system rewritten to fit my play style and be damned with the people who enjoy the system as-is."
I am not being sarcastic or snarky when I point out alternate game systems. I am simply pointing you towards rules systems that mechanically support what you are asking for. Not every game system is a good match for every player and I don't believe any D&D derivative is going to deliver what you are asking for.
Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.
Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
*yesssssssss*
This is I what I think constitutes a good martial. RWBY is nice, but a lot of their appeal is spectacle, the combat lends itself to something more real-time than turn based.
Real time isn't that much different than turn based. For example, WoW PvP is probably the closest videogame analog to d20 combat that I've seen, and all the same pros and cons, and same thinking goes miles in both.
Most people mock MMOs for "aggro" but that's just against computer foes who have no human mind backing them. But other PCs? Well those have human minds, just like GMs, and that's where the aggro thing falls apart. Your "aggro" comes from how much of a threat real people consider you, and no matter how much you insult their mothers (I.G. taunt) they are going to murder your healer/artillery if you don't do something about it.
Unrelated Note: Concerning the barbarian and buffs, I'm currently playing a dedicated Healer/Buffer in a game right now, and if given the choice between a Fighter and a Barbarian w/ Superstition, I'd take the Barbarian...every...single...time. I'll have to use fewer resources on the Barbarian, use temporary HP / damage mitigation as an option, and worst case scenario the Barbarian can just delay (if convenient).
Hm...
I've been thinking. WoW classes d20ized would be kinda cool.
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Or I could just play a Psychic Warrior (or Psion/Slayer) and do 90% of it. The problem is I should be able to do that without needing a casting system to support it.Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.
Watch the series and understand what a mid level martial should be capable. The answer is not "full out their bow". It's attack every enemy around while defending with your weapon, while you move around.
Interesting show.
I don't think Pathfinder is the game system you are looking for. I would recommend either the HERO system or GURPS as better suited to your desired style of play.
You want to redesign core assumptions of the game system.
I point you towards game systems that already have everything you are looking for in the existing mechanics.
You reply back, "I don't want to move to a game system that already matches my expectations, I want this game system rewritten to fit my play style and be damned with the people who enjoy the system as-is."
I am not being sarcastic or snarky when I point out alternate game systems. I am simply pointing you towards rules systems that mechanically support what you are asking for. Not every game system is a good match for every player and I don't believe any D&D derivative is going to deliver what you are asking for.
I'm curious as to what is the "core assumption" you think Anzyr wants to see redesigned?
Is it that fighters should fall behind at high levels?
Is it that high level fighter OOC should resemble this?
Is it that martials should strive and hope to move less than 5ft a round and full attack?
Is it that casters should play their own game and counter each other and martials, while martials just hope that the casters use them in their grand stratagems?
Because I've seem the DSP classes in Ultimate psionics and their martials follow none of those tropes and that is very much the same game as paizo pathfinder. Is it really so much to ask that Paizo steps up their content to the same level of balance as a third party?
I'm curious as to what is the "core assumption" you think Anzyr wants to see redesigned?Both systems would allow him to play martials as depicted in RWBY while still allowing characters thematically designed as mages.
So can Pathfinder. I'm not understanding the problem here.
Hm...
I've been thinking. WoW classes d20ized would be kinda cool.
Weeeeell...
This is a thing I'm working on for Kryzbyn. ^_^
It's not done, but you can read the comments (upper right of the google doc viewer page) to read changes and/or updates. Mostly getting abilities and such into their alpha phases. Given the extent of new content being added in this, I'll need to do some acid tests on it as well before I put my Ashiel's Seal of Approval on it.
However, if it's enjoyed, I'll probably consider doing the rest of the WoW classes up through WotLK. Probably continuing with Death Knight as the second, seeing as it's the least like any of the usual PF/d20 classes in terms of mechanics and playstyle.
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That would be important if the Fighter actually had a decent will save.
Coming back to this: define decent. At what point would you agree a will save is "high enough" at 20th level without disqualifying everyone except barbarians, paladins, monks and clerics.
Low level is trivial to compensate for via Iron Will or one of several racial options.
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So can Pathfinder. I'm not understanding the problem here.I'm curious as to what is the "core assumption" you think Anzyr wants to see redesigned?Both systems would allow him to play martials as depicted in RWBY while still allowing characters thematically designed as mages.
Go test the game systems out. Come back afterwards and tell me if the martial/caster disparity that Anzyr enjoys complaining about exists in either game system.
If you don't see the problems Anzyr cannot stop complaining about, then Pathfinder is probably a better match for you.
Go test the game systems out. Come back afterwards and tell me if the martial/caster disparity that Anzyr enjoys complaining about exists in either game system.So can Pathfinder. I'm not understanding the problem here.I'm curious as to what is the "core assumption" you think Anzyr wants to see redesigned?Both systems would allow him to play martials as depicted in RWBY while still allowing characters thematically designed as mages.
Why would that matter? It doesn't have to exist in Pathfinder either(as shown by at least one 3PP). I didn't ask you about those other systems either.
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Notice how the conversation has gone from "Fighters are not inferior" to "It's a core assumption of the game that Fighters be inferior, so deal with it or find a different system."
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At level 20? I would say at least +18 without magic items.
That would be important if the Fighter actually had a decent will save.Coming back to this: define decent. At what point would you agree a will save is "high enough" at 20th level without disqualifying everyone except barbarians, paladins, monks and clerics.
Low level is trivial to compensate for via Iron Will or one of several racial options.
Wonderful
You've just disqualified every class in the game with the possible exception of the four I just listed. Monks are disqualified under your guideline unless they have at an unmodified wisdom of 22. Most clerics will make the cut, barely, if they started with a 17 wisdom and put all 5 level increases into wisdom.
Anyone else pumping their unmodified wisdom that high has crippled the stats their classes rely upon.
Notice how the conversation has gone from "Fighters are not inferior" to "It's a core assumption of the game that Fighters be inferior, so deal with it or find a different system."
I'm exploring how it doesn't have to be that way. I am interested as to why my efforts would be futile.
Hm...
I've been thinking. WoW classes d20ized would be kinda cool.
Weeeeell...
This is a thing I'm working on for Kryzbyn. ^_^
It's not done, but you can read the comments (upper right of the google doc viewer page) to read changes and/or updates. Mostly getting abilities and such into their alpha phases. Given the extent of new content being added in this, I'll need to do some acid tests on it as well before I put my Ashiel's Seal of Approval on it.
However, if it's enjoyed, I'll probably consider doing the rest of the WoW classes up through WotLK. Probably continuing with Death Knight as the second, seeing as it's the least like any of the usual PF/d20 classes in terms of mechanics and playstyle.
NEAT.
At level 20? I would say at least +18 without magic items.
That would be important if the Fighter actually had a decent will save.Coming back to this: define decent. At what point would you agree a will save is "high enough" at 20th level without disqualifying everyone except barbarians, paladins, monks and clerics.
Low level is trivial to compensate for via Iron Will or one of several racial options.
Wonderful
You've just disqualified every class in the game with the possible exception of the four I just listed. Monks are disqualified under your guideline unless they have at an unmodified wisdom of 22. Most clerics will make the cut, barely, if they started with a 17 wisdom and put all 5 level increases into wisdom.
Anyone else pumping their unmodified wisdom that high has crippled the stats their classes rely upon.
Dwarf with good will save, 12 base wisdom, iron will, will trait = 18
2+12+1+2+1Not a fair standard, but not impossible.
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Notice how the conversation has gone from "Fighters are not inferior" to "It's a core assumption of the game that Fighters be inferior, so deal with it or find a different system."
No, I don't believe fighter are inferior.
What was requested for capabilities is far, far outside the scope of anything Pathfinder has ever offered. It would required revising core assumptions about what classes are and are not capable of.
If your expectations are that disjointed with the existing mechanics, it is time to change to a game system whose mechanics do match your expectations rather than completely rewrite a system you are so dissatisfied with.
Not all game systems are suited for all people.
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twoNotice how the conversation has gone from "Fighters are not inferior" to "It's a core assumption of the game that Fighters be inferior, so deal with it or find a different system."No, I don't believe fighter are inferior.
What was requested for capabilities is far, far outside the scope of anything Pathfinder has ever offered. It would required revising core assumptions about what classes are and are not capable of.
If your expectations are that disjointed with the existing mechanics, it is time to change to a game system whose mechanics do match your expectations rather than completely rewrite a system you are so dissatisfied with.
Not all game systems are suited for all people.
three
four counter examples.
Dwarf with good will save, 14 base wisdom, iron will, will trait = 18
2+12+2+2+1Not a fair standard, but not impossible.
Human wizard. 14 wisdom, will trait, iron will.
12+1+2+2 = 17
Feats are much more precious to non-fighters, the relative opportunity cost is higher.
Dwarf wizard = 19
It's not impossible.
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Dwarf with good will save, 14 base wisdom, iron will, will trait = 18
2+12+2+2+1Not a fair standard, but not impossible.
Human wizard. 14 wisdom, will trait, iron will.
12+1+2+2 = 17
Feats are much more precious to non-fighters, the relative opportunity cost is higher.
Feats are only precious to other martials, unless they also get them from their class (as monk and ranger do, for example). Spellcasters don't have to deal with ridiculous feat chains/feat taxes (unless they're trying to do martial combat), and can pretty much take whatever they want.
What you're saying here is that Fighters have little incentive to stay Fighter, because the class features are so poor.The fighter does multi-class better than the barbarian.
Fighter loses out on some bonus feats, but gains more.
Barbarian loses rage rounds, stronger rages, rage powers, and other class abilities.
Player's have little incentive to stay as fighters if they are not having fun.
Fighters choosing to stay as fighters can be awesome at switch-hitting, something the barbarian doesn't have the feats for, the fighter can be good at archery, melee, and because of their large feat pool, the can take social feats to help in those areas. They can also be awesome siege masters.
The believe that the mobility fighter archetype could be the best comparison to the barbarian who pounces for dpr.
The fighter is good at what it is supposed to do: soak damage, battle-field control, and do damage in melee or range. Some classes can do it better, but they cannot do it all better.
The gem of the fighter is that they can more easily multiclass than other classes because of their class features (or lack thereof).
Want to dps better than the barbarian, take two levels of barbarian (wild rager archetype) then go the rest into fighter and maybe into a third or fourth class. Want to defend an area well, go into stalwart defender and pick up a suit of mithral fullplate and a tower shield, fight defensively.
To make a decent comparison of the fighter vs -whatever-, do it at arbitrary levels: 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, and 20.
At level 1, the fighter can have an an ac of: 24 (FF 23, Touch 11); this is with fullplate, tower shield, and a dex of minimum 12.
At level 1, the barbarian can have an ac of: 21 (FF 18, Touch 13); this is with breastplate, a heavy shield, and a dex of minimum 16.
so on and so forth. At later levels the gaps will increase and decrease as the levels increase.
But beating a dead horse is still beating a dead horse. How can we fix the fighter to be more competitive in these arenas? Do we reduce the number of feats it gets and give it something like the grit/deeds system of the gunslinger? Tactical auras of the 3.0 marshal? Bonuses vs more than one adjacent enemy?
(on a side-note: How does the Barbarian stack against the alchemist/master chymist?)
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Feats are only precious to other martials, unless they also get them from their class (as monk and ranger do, for example). Spellcasters don't have to deal with ridiculous feat chains/feat taxes (unless they're trying to do martial combat), and can pretty much take whatever they want.Dwarf with good will save, 14 base wisdom, iron will, will trait = 18
2+12+2+2+1Not a fair standard, but not impossible.
Human wizard. 14 wisdom, will trait, iron will.
12+1+2+2 = 17
Feats are much more precious to non-fighters, the relative opportunity cost is higher.
You don't play casters do you?
Casters dump most of their feats into raising spell DC's, overcoming SR and picking up the metamagics they need.
Yes, that does involve feat chains. In fact, the level 5 wizard I am currently playing as all but 1 feat invested in a feat chain, and has yet to afford starting on meta-magics or SR breaking.
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That is a good number. THe fighter should not be far behind (and he will be wiht he same stats, feats and trait expenditure)Dwarf with good will save, 14 base wisdom, iron will, will trait = 18
2+12+2+2+1Not a fair standard, but not impossible.
Human wizard. 14 wisdom, will trait, iron will.
12+1+2+2 = 17
Feats are much more precious to non-fighters, the relative opportunity cost is higher.
Read the post.
The fighter was higher.