A Few months back I stumbled into a Discussion Talking about how to make a pathfinder game low magic and how its nearly impossible with how the game is made. Well that got me thinking and i have since put together a setting based mostly on old myths, especially greek to use as a low magic setting.
The base premise is ignorance. Rather than sprawling kingdoms and complete maps and brilliant universities to teach and learn you need a more basic world of city states and to some extent xenophobia. A world where the maps are patchwork at best, making no promises of what lies outside your homelands with rumors of monsters lurking in the gaps. In this world magic is not the tool of man, rather it belongs to the spirits and the gods. A wizard has no books or scrolls to learn his trade from, he must seek out an older wizard as a mentor or barter with the spirits themselves. Arcane casters are looked at with suspicion at best and in some areas such practices are banned completely. Even more suspicion is placed on those who are born with such talents, in part due to suspicions this places on their parentage but also because of the instability of their powers. similarly Divine miracles are not a common occurrence, only the most devout members of the church are granted this gift from the gods.
There are a few basic rule changes
1) spellcraft is not a skill, spellcraft checks are fulfilled with knowledge (Arcana) (Religion) and (Nature) respectively
2) Almost all casting classes are re-listed as prestige classes with the following pre-requisits
Bard - 3 ranks in arcana and Preform
Cleric - 5 ranks in Religion
Druid - 5 ranks in nature
Paladin - 1 ranks in Religion,
Ranger - 1 ranks in Nature,
Wizard - 5 ranks in arcana
Alchemist - 3 ranks in craft (alchemy) 3 ranks in Arcana
Inquisitor - 3 Ranks in Religion,
Summoner - 3 Ranks in the Planes, 3 Ranks in Arcana
Witch - 5 Ranks in Arcana
Magus - 3 ranks in Arcana
Arcanist - 5 ranks in Arcana
Bloodrager -1 Rank in Arcana
investigator - 3 Ranks Arcana 3 Ranks craft (alchemy)
Hunter - 3 Ranks of Nature
Shaman - 5 ranks of the Planes and Nature
Skald -3 ranks in arcana and Preform
Warpriest - 3 ranks in religion
you will notice that sorcerer and oracle are not on this list, these two classes can be taken from level one but have a couple kinks,
- - Firstly, both roll for the spells they gain when they level rather than choosing them; They can however specify the school they want to roll from and weather they will be pulling from a base, or expanded spell list
- - Second they both use the ruleset of Wild Magic, from 3.5
Now onto magic items, The feats scribe scroll and brew potion still exist and function as before, however all other Item creation Feats no longer exist. Magical items are not sold in stores or made in any number they are sources of awe, and carefully guarded by those who own them, Occasionally one might be sold, stolen or bartered off but this is not the norm. Most must be found, either buried in ancient ruins and temples or won from their previous owners.
In this system the art of magic item creation has been lost but it can be discovered in fragments. Any character with enough craft skills to create the base item could in theory enchant it, it is simply a matter of discovering the specific rare reagents required.
For Instance; a flaming burst weapon might require such items as a few drops of uncooled magma, an elementals breath, obsidian dust and a chimeras blood, The recipes and rites might be discovered in ruins or perhaps bought from higher powers and the activities to make a magical weapon should be an adventure in of itself
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It's not that people don't know how to limit magic. It's just that you need to rebalance encounters based on lack of expected magic gear/efficient healing/increased difficulty against monsters with DR/etc.
The system expects you to have these tools, so when you don't, you need to change what the PCs encounter.
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The 5 steps to running a low-magic campaign
1) Don't give your players any useful (magical) treasure.
2) Watch your players flail helplessly against the weakest enemies with DR, or become frustrated when they need to sneak in somewhere and (surprise) the warrior isn't maxed in Stealth.
3) Cackle maniacally and rub your hands together as your players are slaughtered.
4) Wait for your players to drop due to frustration, and find a new group.
5) Repeat
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It's not that low-magic is impossible. It is that the philosophical drive for low-magic settings is fundamentally flawed.
How so?
What's the intent of making a low magic setting?
I'll skip ahead, it's "because I want a more epic fantasy feel, where magic is rare and mysterious and even a +1 sword is the stuff of superb legends and characters aren't so expectant or jaded as to see a suit of magical HALF-plate as 'vendor trash' because it isn't full plate."
Which is code for, "I want those darned players to be weaker, poorer, and more appreciative of all my hard work DMing because they don't seem to have the emotional reaction I personally want in my magical fantasy story."
Unsurprisingly, players do NOT suddenly become super-appreciative of the first +1 short sword at level 10, they are just more exasperated when they keep running into shortages (real or perceived).
And let's take this line, "...magic is not the tool of man, rather it belongs to the spirits and the gods. A wizard has no books or scrolls to learn his trade from, he must seek out an older wizard as a mentor or barter with the spirits themselves..."
That translates to, "Wizards, whose strength has always been their versatility and creativity, are reduced to a handful of spells known, which are going to be the 'bare necessities' and essentially relegate them to boom duty with fireballs, and being less creative or varied than a martial class, which is already complained about for it's lack of options in gameplay besides hitting stuff."
The underlying principle, is holding down characters. And it doesn't make the players more special, at no time has any "low magic setting" ever said, "and this is to make the characters more special, they are epic adventurers in a world of little magic, Heroes of legend who can do what no one else can and thus save the world from evil." The setting of these low magic campaigns always makes it clear that players are more likely...
I am curious - what are the reasons a player has for wanting to play a low magic campaign?
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I am curious - what are the reasons a player has for wanting to play a low magic campaign?
there can be a few
1) Player is tired of the impression of magic-wins-all.
2) Player is tired of blinging-up like a magical Christmas-tree just to keep-up.
3) Player wants to play in a setting akin to (insert low-magic fantasy movie or book).
4) Player wants to have a feel that magic is rare and mystical.
5) Player likes d20/3e/Pathfinder but doesn't like that 50% of the game is about casting spells/receiving spells/saving against spells.
d20/3e/Pathfinder is magic-heavy. In order to function as intended, magic occupies a huge amount of the game. Magic isn't just a useful tool; not having magic is a huge handicap.
Please see this comment as an observation rather than a negative criticism. For most players, magic-heavy is fun. For others, the default level of reliance on magic is just too much. Yet d20 is very strong and flexible RPG engine, and one that most players know, so people want to "fix" it to fit their preferred style of play.
Thinking further on the topic, Low magic settings also usually just don't make sense. If magic is real and magic works (...)
why are you making this assumption?
And even if it does, perhaps not everyone can become a caster. Kind of a Star Wars/jedi relation
Even D&D had had a descent low magic-setting (Birthright)
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Okay, so cross boring7 off the list of people who might enjoy a game like this.
I'm guessing you missed the thread where I suggested a very low magic/very powerful martial campaign, based on examples like medieval romances or wuxia, chanbara, or swashbuckling/pirate movies.
One thing to understand is that many players (including myself) have had very poor dealings with GMs that use low magic. So much so that it's a red flag for me when I read that as a description for a campaign. Many times it isn't even intentional. It's just that the GM takes away magic from the players, but forgets to do the same for the rest of the world. I remember being a level 10 fighter forced to fight some demons and the best weapon we had was a masterwork longsword. Couldn't heal either cause no alchemy. It wasn't fun and by the end of it, we all took leadership and would just throw our followers at monsters.
Most GMs don't put much thought into how removing magic changes the game, so they screw over their players. If you're going to remove things like magic weapons, healing items, and spells, you need to compensate for it with rules that add bonuses to hit and recovering HP. Otherwise your players will resent you when you throw demons and werewolves and dragons and they can't do much because they have no magic.
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I've plotted out how I would run a low to no magic campaign. These are the pitfalls I would remember.
- Altered Healing: This is important to remember. You need to give the PCs some form of healing/recovery mechanic to aid them, since you are banning healing magic and, in your case, alchemical items. If you do not do this, you are dooming your players to long downtimes where they rest all day to heal. I use the recovery system from 13th Age mixed in with Wounds and Vigor.
- Alchemy: I'd keep alchemy in honestly. It's useful and helps players handle some of the crazier monsters. If you want to throw demons and dragons at your players, but don't want to give them magic, let them have alchemy. If not, then just let them fight nothing but humanoid creatures.
- Bake in the Big Six: There are items that help out with saves, attack rolls, and stats that you have to take into account. If you are removing all magic items, you need to just tally up these stat boosting items and simply give them to the players as they gain levels. This allows them to defend against higher level creatures.
- Calibrating Expectations: I'm going to be frank. Players aren't going to be wowed by magic or magic creatures if you play them as is. They won't care that this hydra is a rare, fantasy creature because they are already jaded by fantasy literature and media. They will never really fear a chimera or other monster unless you give them a reason to fear it. I'd suggest throwing mostly humanoid creatures, play up the rarity and danger, or even better, let the players assume that there are no mythical beasts. This way, there is a sense of dread when the mythical creature appears and trashes everything around them. But even then, this will only do so much, because players have seen it all. So I suggest adding new creatures they've never heard of. Players fear what they don't know, so this will be your best bet.
- Rewards: This is actually a lot easier with Ultimate Campaign. Since there are no magic items, you need to still give players cool rewards. Well, how about a store front? Or castle? Or land? Titles and an army are cool too. You can still reward your players handsomely in a low-magic campaign. Conan didn't do jack s%&@ unless there was ample money in it.
In short, that's what I'd do as a low/no magic setting. Probably would couple it with Incantations for 4 level + spells.
Better than asking if it is necessary or not, we can talk about the ideas given to us, not?
The basic idea seems solid, but you need to really address the things Odraude has said, specially the recovery and healing, not only HP, but specially ability point damage, negative levels and similar. The base of that kind of campaign should be fight against NPC. If you do fight with monsters, you have to be REALLY careful, or will exterminate the PC.
On the specifics, many seems working ideas... except the random spells for oracle and sorcerer. JUST DON'T DO THAT. Those two clases will no only be unplayable, but worse still, they would seem playable, making them truly horrible traps.
The one time I ran a genuinely low magic campaign I was specifically going for a Knights of the Round Table feel. All of the PCs were knights, using one or another martial class. In keeping with the genre, they didn't fight magical creatures, except for a couple of witches. Mostly their opponents were other knights or marauding sea raiders. This also had the benefit of requiring the least amount of fiddling to get the level of challenge right - the PCs didn't have any magic items, but neither did the bad guys.
I found that healing was a complete non-issue. Sure, it took a while for wounded characters to get better, just like in the stories. But that had basically zero effect on the game. Time spent healing usually allowed for a lot of interaction and roleplay with the inhabitants of whatever castle they were at. And if there wasn't anything interesting going on, I'd just jump forward to the point where the PCs were ready to get going again.
Did the players do short adventures, or longer adventuring days with more encounters? The latter is where you will see the healing issues. Players infiltrating a lair but can't make it all the way to the end because of loss of HP. Granted, they can sneak, but all it takes is one f&@+ up...
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I enjoy lower magic campaigns, by and large. I think Odraude's list is really useful to keep in mind. I'd also make sure your players want to play a low-magic game (and understand it to mean the same thing you do). That seems to me to be the heart of the problem in most of these genre-challenging situations - if the DM isnt running the game the players want to play, someone isnt going to enjoy themselves.
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The 5 steps to running a low-magic campaign
1) Don't give your players any useful (magical) treasure.
2) Watch your players flail helplessly against the weakest enemies with DR, or become frustrated when they need to sneak in somewhere and (surprise) the warrior isn't maxed in Stealth.
3) Cackle maniacally and rub your hands together as your players are slaughtered.
4) Wait for your players to drop due to frustration, and find a new group.
5) Repeat
Any halfway competent GM wouldn't need a low magic campaign to do any of that. If you make a level 20 / mythic 10 party of a dozen characters and fully deck them out with all the magic you want, no WBL restrictions and artifacts allowed, I could easily TPK them.
Playing low magic in d20/3E/Pathfinder is going to be a different game; same basic system, but a different game nonetheless. I requires adjustment on the player and GM's sides.
Playstyle needs to be adjusted.
Players' expectations need to be adjusted.
Tactics and strategies will need to be adjusted.
Monsters (and their CR) will need to be adjusted.
The same way playstyle, expectations, strategies and challenges need to be adjusted when going from D&D to Warhammer fantasy, or whatever. Only, the rules are more familiar.
If one comes to a low-magic game expecting things to run as RaW, he/she will have a bad experience. As joe said, some potential problems end up being a non-issue with the proper style of play, or forces another dynamic turning the problem into an interesting dynamics.
Healing in one example; it will take a few days to go from niet to full. That changes the pace of adventures, 'cause that's the pace to be expected in a low-magic game (houserules non withstanding). That would likely be the same with other low-magic RPGs.
It means that this monster with DR 15 is now crazy powerful. That's OK, just treat it as a powerful monsters. Pathfinder is full of powerful monsters, and a GM who wants to over CR its encounters will do so regardless of low-magic/high-magic.
JoeJ i like what your trying to do i also feel that magic is abused by a lot of players
Which is fine if that's how they like to play
But what sort of feel are you going for a lord of the rings type game ( which is very low magic when you think about it ) or a more conan the barbarian type of game where magicians also rare and feared
Low magic can be done but you need to be careful when you get to higher lvls things like DR/magic can cause real problems also monsters with spell like abilities can be very powerful
I differ with many people in the thread; I think you can have awesome, awesome games that are "low magic" compared to Core. That said, you're best advised not to try and do it and also try to play levels 1-20 out of Core; that's a recipe for failure, as noted by others.
Instead, you do it by playing E6.
Personally i prefer a low to moderate magic lvl where minor magic items like scrolls and potions are fairly common as are low power weapons and armour ( read +1/+2 ) but anything else is rare and powerful items are only ever found on adventures
The campaign was cut short by r/l, unfortunately, when a couple of the players moved. But while it lasted everybody seemed to be having fun, and I would love to do something like that again some day.
And what level were the PCs when the campaign ended?
I actually prefer playing in low magic games. As often as you see people talk about them in these boards you'd think they'd be more prolific. In actual low magic games it is less of a change to the player characters than the setting.
Having magic not be ubiquitous makes it easier to get a feel for, makes it more immersive. It's kind of world breaking when there are high level clerics and wizards everywhere and they haven't solved some of them more basic problems.
As a player, my biggest problem with high-magic settings is that for some reason a lot of GMs will keep issues involved with low-magic settings in (Hunger, Dehydration, Territory, Non-Magical Diseases) and all the people with power to fix it are just being jerks who don't care because the GM didn't think about it. The setting is high-magic but everyone is stuck in a low-magic mentality destroying the illusion of the game. Suddenly the GM is frustrated and upset because all the players are questioning all of his "rational" decisions. The GM then tries to come up with a way to fix the player characters to make a low magic game not realizing it's the setting that is the issue.
Low magic games are better at lower levels. If you go with E6, you save yourself a lot of trouble. They make for better setting in my opinion.
High magic games are fun if you go all the way. Make it about the quest and defeating the bad guys and you'll have a blast. Just don't be surprised if puzzles, investigations, and social issues don't go the way you planned, because they won't.
Third, almost to fourth.
Bingo! Goes right back to what I was saying, which RA echoed: E6 does "low magic" a lot better than 20-level Core.
Please do not mix game core balance mechanics and flavor.
I get it you want magic to feel special, you want supernatural season 1 and 2 not 8 and 9! You want Buffy the vampire slayer season 1!
If you REALLY want a low magic campaign,here is the secret: make it happen without changing every darn game mechanic in the book. The system is barely balanced as it is don't go in thinking you are doing yourself and your players a favor by changing everything.
Make commoners react in awe if they see a potion of cure light wounds in action. Make magical items very well described it's not a +3 spear, it's the mythical "Heart Seeker" used in a long forgotten war against Ak'yal the winged devourer of men. These 50 +1 arrows you guys found? They are Galian steel forged arrowheads, only made in the forbidden forest by blind elves under the moonlight, under the full moon their steel hum harmoniously with the stars.
If you really wanna tweak the mechanics do this: 50% chance only to find the items listed by towns. Small villages and hamlets do not have magical items in stock.
Low magic does not necessarily mean low level or low power, however.
By 6th level, you can replicate most if not all of what Lancelot and John McClane can do. The only mythological sources E6 won't approach are things like the exploits of the Norse gods, or a few particulars of the Irish Táin Bo Cuailnge.
90% of running a low magic game is presentation not mechanical.
I have done this rundown before. Even in the Holy Grail of "Low" magic settings LOTR. The players are swimming in magic items. Several magic swords, magic cloaks, magic rings, magic dirt, magic rope, magic boats that don't capsize when you send them over the falls. The difference is the relationship the item has with the setting and the character.
If you run the available magic for purchase as written you are already on your way to a not ridiculous high magic setting.
Low magic does not necessarily mean low level or low power, however.By 6th level, you can replicate most if not all of what Lancelot and John McClane can do. The only mythological sources E6 won't approach are things like the exploits of the Norse gods, or a few particulars of the Irish Táin Bo Cuailnge.
There is a certain satisfaction of playing mid-levels (let's say 7th thru 12th) that allows you to fight small armies of minions, surviving dangerous traps and avalanches, or being thrown out of the window after a good fight and still have the oooph to keep going. The problem is that at those levels, magic is starting to steal the show.
E6 does a good job of keeping magic under control, but it also does a good job of keeping what I call the "Hollywood cinematic action style" relatively tame. E6 does it great, but it doesn't solve every issue.
Level 7th to 12th are great, in many ways they are my favourite; it allows you to fight longer, fight creatures and overcome challenge of too large a scale for levels 1-6. Mechanically speaking, bonuses start to be meaningful, abilities are making a big difference between one class and another. The engine seems to run at optimal RPM. But by RaW, levels 7-12 is where magic starts to become problematic. Casters have enough spell slots to be carefree (let's say generous) with their spellcasting, characters really start to collect the big 6 and spells start having serious world-altering consequences. Magic becomes indispensable, not merely useful, and I wouldn't mind turning it down a notch or two, of figure out a way to play with magic on a dial of "1".
After all these years, I can't believe a 3PP hasn't come with a "how to run low-magic in your campaign" book that didn't become "forget about this game, play that one instead".
TL;DR: Levels 1-6 is "realistic" D&D, levels 7-12 is "blockbuster action movie" D&D, but it's also where magic become too much IMO. E6 solves many issues with remarkable simplicity, but low-magic 7-12 would be just awesome.
I've done up to L12, but disallowed 4th+level spells for full casters. Instead, I made those longer, costlier rituals (much like Incantations) that can't really be prepared and spammed. Things like scry, teleport, clairvoyance, etc. Still made casters fun, but more thematic. They could still cast 4th level spells with a feat (Ritual Casting), and for the most part, the utility spells were put as Rituals.
I'd probably tweak it some, allowing offensive and defensive spells to be exempt from that status. I'll have to print the PDF one day for it. I've been meaning to do it for a long time now.
Slightly lower magic more recent grittier novels without mages.
In my opinion the biggest problem with the low vs high discussion is that neither defined based on something that you can measure. My low may be someone else's medium so we're all imagining what the opposing point of view means when they say low or high. I'm a proponent of 'low' magic campaigns but it certainly isn't low based on what some others in this thread are describing as low magic.
As others have pointed out a good GM will taylor encounters to their players abilities and not just match encounter CR to character levels.
Another vote for E6...
...Hey I have trouble getting a party to go from lv. 1 to 2 let alone 2 to 3...
Depending on how low you want magic to be it is more or less difficult. The easiest path is to just increase all spell levels by 1. Meaning cantrips become level 1 spells and level 9 spells become epic no standard caster can cast. That leads to casters starting out with nothing but what are cantrips today.
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What's the intent of making a low magic setting?I'll skip ahead, it's "because I want a more epic fantasy feel, where magic is rare and mysterious and even a +1 sword is the stuff of superb legends and characters aren't so expectant or jaded as to see a suit of magical HALF-plate as 'vendor trash' because it isn't full plate."
Which is code for, "I want those darned players to be weaker, poorer, and more appreciative of all my hard work DMing because they don't seem to have the emotional reaction I personally want in my magical fantasy story."
Unsurprisingly, players do NOT suddenly become super-appreciative of the first +1 short sword at level 10, they are just more exasperated when they keep running into shortages (real or perceived).
Incorrect. You obviously don't understand resource scarce games so you shouldn't post from a position of ignorance. Here's an example - I frequently run Post Apocalyptic Sci fi games - on average more than D&D/PF. Tech items are rare finds and when the player do find them they hold onto them and use them when the really need them. Turn around and run PF - my players complain that magic items are more prevalent than technology in my PA game and none of the stuff feels "magical". They have more of a sense of awe and wonder in my PA game then in my PF game.
That's SadOther game styles are likewise restricted in player power - horror based games. Yeah, you probably don't play those because the lower player agency scares you. But, that's how it works - not every game needs to be about Powah running through the characters veins. Some game styles require the PCs to be closer to the earth.
So I get it, you like higher powered characters - there are people clamoring for more character power as I type this.
Some players want their characters to be confidant bad asses without the need to be decked out in +X bling. Again, play style preference.
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And let's take this line, "...magic is not the tool of man, rather it belongs to the spirits and the gods. A wizard has no books or scrolls to learn his trade from, he must seek out an older wizard as a mentor or barter with the spirits themselves..."
That translates to, "Wizards, whose strength has always been their versatility and creativity, are reduced to a handful of spells known, which are going to be the 'bare necessities' and essentially relegate them to boom duty with fireballs, and being less creative or varied than a martial class, which is already complained about for it's lack of options in gameplay besides hitting stuff."
No, it sounds like a reasonable check on what is causing PF to implode upon itself: Caster vs. Martial disparity (if you know how to play the game this exist) and that Pathfinder is 3.5 D&D on super-easy mode (and 3.5 was 2nd ed on very easy mode). It also sounds like the OP is trying to restore some mysticism back to his game vs. relegating gaining a new spell to the sophistication and difficulty of making a sandwich.
Some people want the game to play harder and will give up character power/training wheels to get that while others will diamond-clench player power so hard that the needed system changes can't come until another edition rolls around.
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The underlying principle, is holding down characters. And it doesn't make the players more special, at no time has any "low magic setting" ever said, "and this is to make the characters more special, they are epic adventurers in a world of little magic, Heroes of legend who can do what no one else can and thus save the world from evil." The setting of these low magic campaigns always makes it clear that players are more likely to be "hunted and feared" like the X-men than "demigod saviors" or "ruling god-kings."
It is about holding down characters - in relation to the player power offered by PF. Which is too high and not a challenge - if you run the game or talk to other DMs you would know this.
Some people like to play a game where their PCs are "demigod saviors" or "ruling god-kings" while many others want to play a game with some challenge and risk -risk of loss and opportunity for heroics. YMMV
This is more of a subjective "like" than following your preference of play style as an edict. The default "high-power/high fantasy" of PF is boring to me and my players but more than that it again shows some ignorance on your part: how can you have a high powered/high fantasy game if their isn't a medium or low power game as a comparison?
3rd ed gaming - going into PF is power for power's sake. Much like the current crop of MtG cards - they just get more powerful each set (Splat) older cards being phased out if possible while trying to avoid a player revolt (new feats, classes and spells in PF), because the MtG players are only interested in MOAR power (re: player splats).
They want to be rocked, they want something that is going to help them win the game easier and more reliably. Luckily Paizo didn't go that route entirely (they have in a few books) as the core selling point for their splats, but it's there - it's called power creep.
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I get it, you watched Conan or read Song of Ice and Fire and want something more like that, but that isn't how it ever plays out. The way it plays out is characters just get weaker and higher-mortality and players get more desperate or less scrupulous. If they were monty haul before they stay monty haul (or straight-up quit) but at no time has there ever been a story where players "developed a new appreciation" or campaigns got "more epic/interesting."
This is where I would somewhat agree with you. It doesn't play out that way because the rules support high fantasy/easy mode. If you want a gritty or challenging game PF needs a major system overall or to be run in a powah limited mode (E6, et al). The rest of your comments are nonsensical - low resource games don't turn PCs into desperate scumbags. Bad players turn their PCs into desperate scumbags.
I love your absolutes though, spoken like a true believer: Players quit, players never develop a new appreciation of the game.
It's as if you are omnipotent and can see every game and campaign out there - much like your imaginative "ruling god-king" #253.
Also - you don't seem to understand the term you are throwing out here - Monty Hall is the concept where the DM keeps giving away magic items of increasing power at players to keep them happy and interested in the game. It is the exact OPPOSITE of a low powered game. The boredom/stop playing aspect is what happens in any game where the players get bored of how easy it is and quit.
You should probably understand the term and it's origins before posting a catchphrase in an attempt to look informed.
Your other post on "magic is science" is such a nonsensical reach that it wasn't quote worthy. You should try another angle to convince people that what they want or like out of game is wrong.
Anyway - sorry for the derail.
See low magic means the bad guys are low magic too...If the bad guys have magic items, and you don't, that isn't going to end well, or fairly....That's not low magic, that's like RP'ing the Opium Wars.
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Well I guess you're right, there is another option. It also makes the PCs dead.
You can be a villain OR you can be a victim. I've played plenty of low-magic games and low-tech games and the end result was always the same. The bad guys won. The bad guys won big. Either we ran away and watched the town burn, stealing from the weak just to survive and leaving a stack of corpses to slow the bad guys down, or we tried to help and died horribly, usually laughed at by the people we tried to help.
Bad DM/GM.
If a GM is only going to give the option between being scum or having per-determined sad ending then you are dealing with DM who can't handle low-resource (tech or magic) games. Right now I'm running a low resource PA game - the players have gone out of their way to save every other survivor they can find. And because they have limited gear, are outnumbered, there is no healing - the thing feels epically heroic. More heroic than my last "high-power" PF game.Comes down the players and what they want and the skill set of the GM.
And your "corrections" on terminology are wrong, but feel free to keep insulting people from a position of completely mistaken authority, it's certainly an effective tactic at explaining your position.
No, you are incorrect on the terminology (and a few other things). Monty Haul is "guess whats behind door number 3". It's prize give-away to keep the players attention.
It's in the 1st ed DMG as a thing to avoid: keeping players attention, interest and getting their adoration by the DM giving them more and more magic items.
You really should understand the term before you toss it around here, just makes you look uninformed.
And I get it, you have alot of angst towards low-magic/low-tech or low resource games (as a whole). But other people are looking for something else - just because you and your group were incapable of achieving it with enjoyment doesn't mean that others (who may have more skill or understanding) can't try? That was your groups failure - your DM's inability to see the problems with a low-resource game. Not different from a DM who runs a high-powered game and the game gets away from him.
It happens.
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Third, almost to fourth.Bingo! Goes right back to what I was saying, which RA echoed: E6 does "low magic" a lot better than 20-level Core.Okay, I just looked up E6, and it looks worth trying. Low magic does not necessarily mean low level or low power, however. Some of the characters in those medieval romances did things that were well beyond the limits of ordinary non-superpowered humans. Character in action movies, whether Western or Asian, are also frequently able to pull of ridiculously over-the-top stunts with ease.
I think that E6 with some class banning could work well if done right. I would Nix Wizards and clerics if they didn't fit in and possibly some of the other full casters if they seem to be too magical from the get-go. Another idea to limit casters is to limit mental stats to 14 or so. They can still cast, the DCs are more managable, and not so much bonus spells.
Another resource to look at for ideas on a low-magic type of setting and system is Sean K Reynold's own The New Argonauts. It is free first of all, it is for D20 so may need some minor conversion to Pathfinder, BUT it IS a Pseudo-greek mythology setting with rules on classes, spells, and monsters for a low-magic Ancient Greece-type of campaign. I have used it and it is wonderful.
So Either way, E6 or The New Argonauts, would seem to be a great way to go and have the benefit of already existing and having been tested for functionality.
Edit ----Here is the description of The New Argonauts on Drivethrurpg....
This book by Sean K Reynolds gives you everything you need to run a campaign in mythic Greece. Rather than cramming dwarves, paladins, and otyughs into a Greek setting, The New Argonauts presents a low-magic campaign (but still with a touch of the fantastic and divine) where the focus is on Greek-style heroes, their battles against strange monsters, and great quests. This book gives insights on how a low-magic campaign affects character concepts and game balance, an overview of Greek culture, history, the Olympian pantheon, the original Olympic Games, and advice on running a mythic Greek campaign. Gamers who love crunchy bits can find new feats and spells, a set of heroic powers derived from godly bloodlines, a campaign-themed spellcasting class, simple magic items based on parts from mythic monsters, and over thirty monsters drawn from the Greek myths (many rewritten from the core version to suit a low-magic campaign).
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Also I forgot to add in that there was a couple of threads on Paizo here that were about conversions of E6 to Pathfinder, one where a member of the board had written up an extensive PDF file that was looking very very good. I would post the link but I am feeling lazy....you can do a messageboard search on E6 Pathfinder or P6 I believe to find it...