Being able to full attack with a bow and then quick draw and full attack with melee is all any martial needs. You do enough damage and provide threat. Fighters do this fine.Optimization has nothing to do with it. Other classes fight better. All the Fighter can do okayishly is full attack. The Fighter is actually the least adaptable to combat in the game.If the Fighter isn't doing anything particularly good about fulfilling it's concepts, then why should someone play one over another class? It's essentially a waste of text if other classes fit the Fighter's bill better.And this is where the whole thing falls apart. The concept of a fighter is to fight well. It does this, but everyone wants more from it and then cry because they don't want to have a less than 18 strength at level one and dump intelligence.
The problem is and has always been optimizers.
Still waiting to see how those spellstoring arrows work...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And this is where the whole thing falls apart. The concept of a fighter is to fight well. It does this, but everyone wants more from it and then cry because they don't want to have a less than 18 strength at level one and dump intelligence.
The problem is and has always been optimizers.
Because "Increasing Int" is a Fighter class feature, right? No other class can do it. And Fighter get such amazing benefits from Int. Really impressive synergy there!
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.I see very little evidence the Titan he fought are CR 21-22. Maybe I missed the Meteor Swarms when I was reading that though. A 13th Level Druid is absolutely capable of being a swan or a bull, and calling down lightning.
Stop changing the rules of your "take what they fought and claim that determines their CR" game.
I see no evidence that the Nazgul in LoTR are CR 5 Wraiths; I would put them much higher, but you and others have used that to claim that everyone in LoTR is Level 5 or lower.
Well, same rules apply-- Zeus and the Olympians fought and defeated an army of Titans. Titans are CR 21-22, therefore Zeus and the Olympians are at a minimum Level 20.
You don't get to change those facts because 3000+ years ago when they made the myths they understood the power of deities and mythic creatures without specific narrative where their deeds are described in detail.
Because "Increasing Int" is a Fighter class feature, right? No other class can do it. And Fighter get such amazing benefits from Int. Really impressive synergy there!And this is where the whole thing falls apart. The concept of a fighter is to fight well. It does this, but everyone wants more from it and then cry because they don't want to have a less than 18 strength at level one and dump intelligence.
The problem is and has always been optimizers.
Lemmy you're not yourself when starving for class features.
Play a magus.
Spell storing arrows with dispel magic deal with your fickle winds. I do enjoy seeing everyone post this crap repeatedly to counter archers every time they can.Reread the rules please. And then please come in here and post why you were wrong. Normally I'd get the rule and quote them, but this is just so obviously wrong that it's not worth it.Three questions for Anzyr
1) How would the arrows even hit the spell?
2) How is the CL high enough to even dispel the spell?
3) Who is putting the spell in the arrows?Or does that trick just not even begin to work?
It just does not work based on the wording for "spell storing".
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.I see very little evidence the Titan he fought are CR 21-22. Maybe I missed the Meteor Swarms when I was reading that though. A 13th Level Druid is absolutely capable of being a swan or a bull, and calling down lightning.Stop changing the rules of your "take what they fought and claim that determines their CR" game.
I see no evidence that the Nazgul in LoTR are CR 5 Wraiths; I would put them much higher, but you and others have used that to claim that everyone in LoTR is Level 5 or lower.
Well, same rules apply-- Zeus and the Olympians fought and defeated an army of Titans. Titans are CR 21-22, therefore Zeus and the Olympians are at a minimum Level 20.
You don't get to change those facts because 3000+ years ago when they made the myths they understood the power of deities and mythic creatures without specific narrative where their deeds are described in detail.
They did have help from Hekatonkheires, which you'll note are CR 24. So yes, I think a Level 13 Druid with an Army of CR 24 Creatures would beat CR 21-22 creatures.
Check and Mate.
More words on paper. Other classes lack the feats to do both exceptionally.So can all the other classes be exceptional archers AND sword and board combatants like a fighter can with their 21 feats? Still having more feats to spare for whatever other utility they like?CErtainly not "all", but yes, several other classes are esceptional archers and sword and board combatants.
Rangers do both really well.
What utility is the fighter bringing to the table, while being exceptionally good at S&B and archery? Also what level is this taking place at?
Save your sarcasm. Hercules is a demigod and Beowulf, with the hyperbolic style of the Norse ballads may as well be one.
Counterbalancing those two examples are my two floor-to-ceiling bookshelves filled with fantasy warriors & rogues that aren't demigods.
It doesn't matter what they are.
If Beowulf is a demigod with CR 15, then a 15th level Fighter should theoretically be just as powerful as Beowulf, since they have the same CR.
And your books simply star low-level characters. So what?
The point was that Mythic specifically addresses the "I wanna play a demigod" trope and that some people want to play a mortal, heroic, non-caster rather than flip the "I went from Batman to Superman" switch with the same character.
If that's too difficult to follow, let's leave it at that. If you simply disagree b/c you want a power-bump, that's cool but not wanting it is a valid opinion I can offer in a thread asking which way the power-pendulum should swing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hey now wraithstrike, those are just words on paper. And what is words on paper good for? Recording history? Passing on knowledge? Revealing universal truths?
Oh...
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.I see very little evidence the Titan he fought are CR 21-22. Maybe I missed the Meteor Swarms when I was reading that though. A 13th Level Druid is absolutely capable of being a swan or a bull, and calling down lightning.Stop changing the rules of your "take what they fought and claim that determines their CR" game.
I see no evidence that the Nazgul in LoTR are CR 5 Wraiths; I would put them much higher, but you and others have used that to claim that everyone in LoTR is Level 5 or lower.
Well, same rules apply-- Zeus and the Olympians fought and defeated an army of Titans. Titans are CR 21-22, therefore Zeus and the Olympians are at a minimum Level 20.
You don't get to change those facts because 3000+ years ago when they made the myths they understood the power of deities and mythic creatures without specific narrative where their deeds are described in detail.
Weren't you the guy who said the Orcs that killed Boromir must have been like level 16 despite how obvious that wouldn't kill Boromir in the 4-5 arrows he took if he was a level 16 character in an attempt to make LotR sound like a much higher level game than it actually would be in Pathfinder?
And if demon-lords are in the CR 20-30 range, I don't think Zeus is a CR 15.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anyways, not sure why this threads become about just fighters.
Because Fighters are THE martial. If there is a problem with them it is indicative a problem with martials in general.
If you lined up martials in terms of effectiveness, the best martials are generally the ones least like the fighter.
Save your sarcasm. Hercules is a demigod and Beowulf, with the hyperbolic style of the Norse ballads may as well be one.
Counterbalancing those two examples are my two floor-to-ceiling bookshelves filled with fantasy warriors & rogues that aren't demigods.
It doesn't matter what they are.
If Beowulf is a demigod with CR 15, then a 15th level Fighter should theoretically be just as powerful as Beowulf, since they have the same CR.
And your books simply star low-level characters. So what?
The point was that Mythic specifically addresses the "I wanna play a demigod" trope and that some people want to play a mortal, heroic, non-caster rather than flip the "I went from Batman to Superman" switch with the same character.
If that's too difficult to follow, let's leave it at that. If you simply disagree b/c you want a power-bump, that's cool but not wanting it is a valid opinion I can offer in a thread asking which way the power-pendulum should swing.
That's not true. Let's talk about how you really feel. Say it with me now:
"I want to play a low level character."
There. Don't you feel better?
And if demon-lords are in the CR 20-30 range, I don't think Zeus is a CR 15.
You are forgetting his army of CR 24 Hekatonkheires.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rangers do both really well.
Heck, certain types of monk can do it well.
The only real requirements for switch hitting are power attack and quick draw. Given that a switch hitter can skip precise shot as a feat that's only one feat more they'd need over basic archery.
If the Fighter isn't doing anything particularly good about fulfilling it's concepts, then why should someone play one over another class? It's essentially a waste of text if other classes fit the Fighter's bill better.And this is where the whole thing falls apart. The concept of a fighter is to fight well. It does this, but everyone wants more from it and then cry because they don't want to have a less than 18 strength at level one and dump intelligence.
The problem is and has always been optimizers.
Just because it fights well does not mean it has to be limited to fighting only.
The other full BAB classes fight well and still do other things. No they don't match a fighter in DPR when their class abilities are not on, but they still do enough damage to stand in for a fighter in that regard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Casters do have equivalents in literature.
The Belgariad, The Chronicles of Amber, Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Mageborn, The Half-Orc series, The Book of the new Sun, ect.
And of course if you branch out into animes the list is endless. (On that not saint seiya martials would not be an issue)
I would also include Milamber / Pug (From the Raymond E. Feist books) and Quick Ben from The Book of Malazn series (Which I guess is part of your etc... but I like these characters... so.. yeah). Milamber / Pug especially reached these levels. I won't state any of his particular feats as I don't want to spoil anything for possible readers. But needless to say, there are equivalents.
It seems to me that this boils down to the fighter particularly (maybe the rogue as well). If that is the case, the class itself needs reworked and might be in Unchained.
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.I see very little evidence the Titan he fought are CR 21-22. Maybe I missed the Meteor Swarms when I was reading that though. A 13th Level Druid is absolutely capable of being a swan or a bull, and calling down lightning.Stop changing the rules of your "take what they fought and claim that determines their CR" game.
I see no evidence that the Nazgul in LoTR are CR 5 Wraiths; I would put them much higher, but you and others have used that to claim that everyone in LoTR is Level 5 or lower.
Well, same rules apply-- Zeus and the Olympians fought and defeated an army of Titans. Titans are CR 21-22, therefore Zeus and the Olympians are at a minimum Level 20.
You don't get to change those facts because 3000+ years ago when they made the myths they understood the power of deities and mythic creatures without specific narrative where their deeds are described in detail.
They did have help from Hekatonkheires, which you'll note are CR 24. So yes, I think a Level 13 Druid with an Army of CR 24 Creatures would beat CR 21-22 creartures.
Both Zeus and Poseidon cast Storm of Vengeance a 9th level spell at times in the myths. They summon Krakens-- CR 18 which even a 9th level spell cannot do.
Not buying the level 13 argument in anyway shape or form.
Also, check your myth knowledge again-- Zeus defeats Chronos, King of the Titans SOLO to free the other Olympians before the war.
|
Other classes can't do what the fighter does though. No other class gains 21 feats, armor training, and weapon training. A fighter gets more out of armor than any class. A fighter gets more combat options through feats than any other class.A Barbarian can wear heavy armor and move full speed, 10 better than feats talents, 10 feats, and Rage which applies to all their weapons and bows(with Adaptive).
Though I'd be more than happy to hear what combat options you're taking. A 10th level Fighter would be pleasant to see as a thought experiment.
Human Lore Warden:
Str18[15+2lrace+1@level4]
Dex16[15+1@level8]
Con14
Int13
Wis12
Cha7
Feats:
1:Power Attack
1:Point-Blank Shot
1:Quickdraw
2:Combat Expertise
2:Precise Shot
3:Improved Dirty Trick
4:Improved Unarmed Strike
5:Improved Grapple
6:Greater Dirty Trick
7:Greater Grapple
8:Rapidshot
9:Manyshot
10:Combat Reflexes
Haven't gotten the the gear yet, but I'd probably go with using a Glaive and getting weapon training in polearms. It can do ranged, swap quickly to melee, go up front, use a reach weapon and step back, grapple people to death, and blind/entangle/sicken/etc people, all with moderate, if not exceptional effectiveness. I suppose the greater feats, and rapid/manyshot could be replaced with things like Vital Strike and spring attack, but considering how fast CMD scales I figured the greater maneuver feats were worth it.
Both Zeus and Poseidon cast Storm of Vengeance a 9th level spell at times in the myths. They summon Krakens-- CR 18 which even a 9th level spell cannot do.Not buying the level 13 argument in anyway shape or form.
Also, check your myth knowledge again-- Zeus defeats Chronos, King of the Titans SOLO to free the other Olympians before the war.
I think you are mistaking Control Weather for Storm of Vengeance. And they don't summon Krakens. They keep one singular Kraken. Under lock and key. Because it would wreck them. Like a CR 18 should wreck a CR 13. Please continue providing evidence supporting Zeus being CR 13. It's actually working out very well for me.
Edit: TarkXT beat me to the punch. Curse my google-fu.
Also, check your myth knowledge again-- Zeus defeats Chronos, King of the Titans SOLO to free the other Olympians before the war.
Through trickery mind. Not single combat.
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.
Books don't have CR's, and monsters in book may not match Paizo's.
With that aside, I think Anzyr is saying that if you port the people in novels into Pathfinder giving them the abilities they show in stories they will not be CR 20's.
Hercules as an example could not create demiplanes, so in Pathfinder he is not a demigod. He was killed by poison IIRC, but he was tough to hurt so he would have a really high DR.
I think people need to stop giving the mythological gods so much credit. I'd bet on a level 20 Wizard over all (Yes, ALL) of them.
Dominions, i love this game, why? because a dragon, a wizard, and Zeus all have the same chance to become the one true god. I like Wizards or dragons too as i can cast a ton of spells with their naturally high abilities, meaning "yay, i just resurrected half of the battlefield as zombie thralls, and i sacrificed a few slaves to bind some pit fiends to join combat.
"now time to teleport to the back of the battlefield and start going into melee in a polymorph form."
"oh yeah and i can do this on the campaign map too"
I think you are mistaking Control Weather for Storm of Vengeance. And they don't summon Krakens. They keep one singular Kraken. Under lock and key. Because it would wreck them. Like a CR 18 should wreck a CR 13. Please continue providing evidence supporting Zeus being CR 13. It's actually working out very well for me.
In the sense that you are so completely wrong you fail to even consider the obvious evidence.
Control Weather does not destroy Kingdoms.
13th level characters do not solo Titans.
Good answer.Anyways, not sure why this threads become about just fighters.Because Fighters are THE martial. If there is a problem with them it is indicative a problem with martials in general.
If you lined up martials in terms of effectiveness, the best martials are generally the ones least like the fighter.
It really is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.Books don't have CR's, and monsters in book may not match Paizo's.
With that aside, I think Anzyr is saying that if you port the people in novels into Pathfinder giving them the abilities they show in stories they will not be CR 20's.
Hercules as an example could not create demiplanes, so in Pathfinder he is not a demigod. He was killed by poison IIRC, but he was tough to hurt so he would have a really high DR.
Exactly correct!
I think you are mistaking Control Weather for Storm of Vengeance. And they don't summon Krakens. They keep one singular Kraken. Under lock and key. Because it would wreck them. Like a CR 18 should wreck a CR 13. Please continue providing evidence supporting Zeus being CR 13. It's actually working out very well for me.In the sense that you are so completely wrong you fail to even consider the obvious evidence.
Control Weather does not destroy Kingdoms.
13th level characters do not solo Titans.
Control Weather can totally destroy kingdoms. Or does days and days of Tornadoes not destroy Kingdoms anymore? I could have sworn it did.
Through trickery mind. Not single combat.
Also, check your myth knowledge again-- Zeus defeats Chronos, King of the Titans SOLO to free the other Olympians before the war.
"Zeus released the brothers of Cronus, the Gigantes, the Hecatonchires and the Cyclopes, from their dungeon in Tartarus"
He had Cyclopses on his side, that war was a sham.
Ya honestly, all the Zeus stuff in this thread is making me even more certain he was probably only a level 13 Druid.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the Fighter isn't doing anything particularly good about fulfilling it's concepts, then why should someone play one over another class? It's essentially a waste of text if other classes fit the Fighter's bill better.And this is where the whole thing falls apart. The concept of a fighter is to fight well. It does this, but everyone wants more from it and then cry because they don't want to have a less than 18 strength at level one and dump intelligence.
The problem is and has always been optimizers.
Just because it fights well does not mean it has to be limited to fighting only.
The other full BAB classes fight well and still do other things. No they don't match a fighter in DPR when their class abilities are not on, but they still do enough damage to stand in for a fighter in that regard.
In some cases they exceed the fighter.
Cavalier on a charge against a challenged meat puppet?
Think I've managed 290 damage on the first attack of a charge.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ya honestly, all the Zeus stuff in this thread is making me even more certain he was probably only a level 13 Druid.
Got it. Pure trolling.
Right, because backing it up with facts, like the fact that Hekatonkheires are CR 24, Control Weather can provide endless days of catastrophic weather, the fact that Level 13 Druid can do all that and turn into animals, is probably not at all a serious argument.
Sorry, bad arguments bring out my sarcasm.
Ya honestly, all the Zeus stuff in this thread is making me even more certain he was probably only a level 13 Druid.Got it. Pure trolling.
no trolling, the average human never get's above level 2. a lvl 13 druid would have been a god to humans. He does not ever show off abilities that would have been considered lvl 20 or above. Most of the gods don't do anything special in Greek/Roman mythos.
Zeus once nodded his head and all Olympias shook.
As far as Xenophanes is concerned that means he is not qualified to be a deity, because he had to move. So even pre-Socratic greek philosophers were questioning his status as a divine.
I still think he is strong enough in the mythos to deserve the title. I also attribute the acts of the entire Greek pantheon to him since he was the one in charge.
Zeus once nodded his head and all Olympias shook.
As far as Xenophanes is concerned that means he is not qualified to be a deity, because he had to move. So even pre-Socratic greek philosophers were questioning his status as a divine.
I still think he is strong enough in the mythos to deserve the title. I also attribute the acts of the entire Greek pantheon to him since he was the one in charge.
I guess if you think about it, their gameworld had no beings that could truly oppose the Olympians and their allies. That's as good as godliness, right?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.Way off on the CR. The Titans were not those wimpy things from Bestiary 2; they were full gods. That's why they had to be bound in Tartarus - as gods, they could not be killed.
Zeus was explicitly stated by Homer to be more powerful than all the other gods combined. He didn't cast just Control Weather spells, he actually controlled the weather. All of it.
They have regen that the gods didn't have a way to overcome (Evil). So ya, they'd need imprisoned.
And you realize Control Weather... well... controls the weather.
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.Way off on the CR. The Titans were not those wimpy things from Bestiary 2; they were full gods. That's why they had to be bound in Tartarus - as gods, they could not be killed.
Zeus was explicitly stated by Homer to be more powerful than all the other gods combined. He didn't cast just Control Weather spells, he actually controlled the weather. All of it.
that's only because his brothers LITERALLY got the short stick, and so Zeus got the best domain to exert power.
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.Way off on the CR. The Titans were not those wimpy things from Bestiary 2; they were full gods. That's why they had to be bound in Tartarus - as gods, they could not be killed.
Zeus was explicitly stated by Homer to be more powerful than all the other gods combined. He didn't cast just Control Weather spells, he actually controlled the weather. All of it.
They have regen that the gods didn't have a way to overcome (Evil). So ya, they'd need imprisoned.
And you realize Control Weather... well... controls the weather.
Control Weather lets you control a tiny little bit of weather in one place for a short time. It doesn't make you the person who decides which countries get rain today and which don't.
considering that A. none of the greek gods were omnipotent, and B no god could over rule another gods decrees. I doubt that in reality. Posedion at several times used control weather.
Actually, this is a fair point. Is godliness only defined by who is king of the hill?I guess if you think about it, their gameworld had no beings that could truly oppose the Olympians and their allies. That's as good as godliness, right?Zeus once nodded his head and all Olympias shook.
As far as Xenophanes is concerned that means he is not qualified to be a deity, because he had to move. So even pre-Socratic greek philosophers were questioning his status as a divine.
I still think he is strong enough in the mythos to deserve the title. I also attribute the acts of the entire Greek pantheon to him since he was the one in charge.
More or less. What other metric would you use?
More or less. What other metric would you use?Actually, this is a fair point. Is godliness only defined by who is king of the hill?I guess if you think about it, their gameworld had no beings that could truly oppose the Olympians and their allies. That's as good as godliness, right?Zeus once nodded his head and all Olympias shook.
As far as Xenophanes is concerned that means he is not qualified to be a deity, because he had to move. So even pre-Socratic greek philosophers were questioning his status as a divine.
I still think he is strong enough in the mythos to deserve the title. I also attribute the acts of the entire Greek pantheon to him since he was the one in charge.
Regarding Xenophanes' theology five key concepts about God can be formed. God is: beyond human morality, does not resemble human form, cannot die or be born (God is divine thus eternal), no divine hierarchy exists, and God does not intervene in human affairs.[22] While Xenophanes is rejecting Homeric theology, he is not questioning the presence of a divine entity, rather his philosophy is a critique on Ancient Greek writers and their conception of divinity[23] There is also the concept of God being whole with the universe, essentially controlling it, while at the same time being physically unconnected.[22]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophanes
To bring things back on topic, Flawed if you are still around---> Why are you opposed to fighters being able to actually have some utility? I am not saying they should be on part with bards or inquisitors for options, but something beyond "I hit things hard" is not going to break the class.
I am asking because I don't get why some are opposed to this.
PS: If anyone else is around that does not want to give fighters some options you may reply also.
Anzyr-- Titans are CR 21-22. Zeus defeated an Army of them. Zeus is not level 13.Way off on the CR. The Titans were not those wimpy things from Bestiary 2; they were full gods. That's why they had to be bound in Tartarus - as gods, they could not be killed.
Zeus was explicitly stated by Homer to be more powerful than all the other gods combined. He didn't cast just Control Weather spells, he actually controlled the weather. All of it.
They have regen that the gods didn't have a way to overcome (Evil). So ya, they'd need imprisoned.
And you realize Control Weather... well... controls the weather.
Control Weather lets you control a tiny little bit of weather in one place for a short time. It doesn't make you the person who decides which countries get rain today and which don't.
I don't see why not? 2 Miles is a long distance. 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there. Boom, tornados aplenty.