Should martials be buffed... or casters brought down?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Flawed wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Flawed wrote:
You mean the wings of flying that give a 60 foot fly speed and last forever wouldn't allow me to keep up on top of the potion of fire resistance or a ring of evasion? Boots of speed to grant haste and you're even faster than the pit fiend.

Wait, how is a fighter only failing his saves on a 1 without a +5 cloak of resistance?

6+10 from Wisdom (I'm assuming a 30) only gets you to +16. I'm sure I'm forgetting some modifiers here. Iron Will gives a +2. You're still failing a DC 26 save 35% of the time.

It's in my post history. Look for Brutus. He has 5 Ioun stones that give a +5 resistance bonus instead of the cloak. His wisdom was a 14. I made the build as a point that fighters don't have to use any of their feats from levels to be capable characters to post huge numbers in damage.

The build would actually get a higher bonus to hit, damage, saves from the bane evil outsider while fighting a pit fiend.

Do you mean this guy?. I still see Will save of only +19.

*reads some more*

Ah, it's because of the touch of rage power, using Eldritch Heritage. Yeah that works. It requires you to go first, but it does work, and +19 isn't that bad anyway. Although yo dou list the bonus as +11, and unless I'm missing something again, it should be +9 (18/2). That change would put you at +25, which still falls in range of needing a 1 to fail a save, so it doesn't matter that much to the situation anyway.


Flawed wrote:

Can't teleport when using a phase locking weapon. This has already been discussed.

It can't get past the SR.

So we're looking at a +5 holy, phase locking, bane bow? K that's +10. Hope you are not running out of money. Even if the phase locking was useful in this situation...


Squirrel Dude wrote:
Ah, it's because of the touch of rage power, using Eldritch Heritage. Yeah that works. It requires you to go first, but it does work, and +19 isn't that bad anyway. Although yo dou list the bonus as +11, and unless I'm missing something again, it should be +9 (18/2). That change would put you at +25, which still falls in range of needing a 1 to fail a save, so it doesn't matter that much to the situation anyway.

Courageous weapon bumps all morale bonuses by 2. By 3 vs evil outsiders.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
It can't get past the SR.

No spell is being cast.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
So we're looking at a +5 holy, phase locking, bane bow? K that's +10. Hope you are not running out of money. Even if the phase locking was useful in this situation...

A +5 weapon bypasses alignment and doesn't need holy. When did anyone mention a bane bow?

A +1 holy phase locking bow will do just as well with a little less accuracy.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

There is no saving throw or SR for Phase locking. He's locked if he gets hit.

I see no reason for the weapon not to have to roll the SR check.

Well, there is the general rule that magic weapons are not subject to SR defense.

PRD wrote:

[LINK]

"Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not."

But I think the specific rule of the item trumps that

d20PFSRD wrote:

[LINK]

A phase locking weapon interferes with dimensional travel. A creature damaged by a phase locking weapon is affected as though by the dimensional anchor spell for 1 round.

But I'd need to look more into how weapon ability enchants work to really find a solid answer on that, and that's hoping there isn't some FAQ that runs counter to what the rules say.


Flawed wrote:
At the maximum range of fireballs vs the archer with far shot and a distance bow they're taking a -5.

1120 feet for the fireball (400 + 40*18).

A compasite longbow has a range increment of 110. So 10 increment aways, meaning 9 -2 penalties. -1 with far shot. That's a -9 to hit.


Flawed wrote:
Squirrel Dude wrote:
Ah, it's because of the touch of rage power, using Eldritch Heritage. Yeah that works. It requires you to go first, but it does work, and +19 isn't that bad anyway. Although yo dou list the bonus as +11, and unless I'm missing something again, it should be +9 (18/2). That change would put you at +25, which still falls in range of needing a 1 to fail a save, so it doesn't matter that much to the situation anyway.
Courageous weapon bumps all morale bonuses by 2. By 3 vs evil outsiders.

That weapon is impossible

You can't have a +5 holy phase locking bane courageous bow.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
At the maximum range of fireballs vs the archer with far shot and a distance bow they're taking a -5.

1120 feet for the fireball (400 + 40*18).

A compasite longbow has a range increment of 110. So 10 increment aways, meaning 9 -2 penalties. -1 with far shot. That's a -9 to hit.

You do know what the distance enchantment we've continually referenced is right?

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
You can't have a +5 holy phase locking bane courageous bow.

Wow dude. Seriously take a step back. Breath. And spend some time reading the thread so you have a clue what people are talking about.

Squirrel Dude wrote:

Well, there is the general rule that magic weapons are not subject to SR defense.

PRD wrote:
[LINK]
"Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not."
But I think the specific rule of the item trumps that

d20PFSRD wrote:
[LINK]
A phase locking weapon interferes with dimensional travel. A creature damaged by a phase locking weapon is affected as though by the dimensional anchor spell for 1 round.
But I'd need to look more into how weapon ability enchants work to really find a solid answer on that, and that's hoping there isn't some FAQ that runs counter to what the rules say.

The bolded part is just telling you the effects not that a spell is being cast. The creature is affected as though the were under the influence of the dimensional anchor spell for 1 round.


Flawed wrote:
swoosh wrote:
The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.

Use some of your 21 feats to be good at melee, archery, combat mobility, utilizing a mount, social events, spend 20,000 and get a carpet of flying that you guide around through verbal communication which is a free action and moves 60-80 feet a round, 7200 for jaunt boots help move around using 5 foot steps to get 15 feet of movement.

If you're running out of tricks because you can't full attack then work on different builds that add versatility. Don't invest heavily into DPR as it only matters to a point. Dealing 500+ damage a round is awesome, but entirely unnecessary as most things don't have that many HP and killing things in a single round shouldn't be your priority.

Except that Melee and archery are both the same thing "I FULL ATTACK!!!!"

Mounted COmbat only works if you are in a place supporting mounts (Look at what people complain about most when it comes to calaviers?)

Social Events: You will pretyt much ALWAYS suck. You barely have any skill points.. and WHAT is your Cha? I thought so...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

And he's forgetting we can use magic arrows...

==Aelryinth


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

There is no saving throw or SR for Phase locking. He's locked if he gets hit.

I see no reason for the weapon not to have to roll the SR check.

Well, there is the general rule that magic weapons are not subject to SR defense.

PRD wrote:

[LINK]

"Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not."

But I think the specific rule of the item trumps that

d20PFSRD wrote:

[LINK]

A phase locking weapon interferes with dimensional travel. A creature damaged by a phase locking weapon is affected as though by the dimensional anchor spell for 1 round.
But I'd need to look more into how weapon ability enchants work to really find a solid answer on that, and that's hoping there isn't some FAQ that runs counter to what the rules say.

Seems legit enough. The effect doesn't last forever though and the fighter is either as fast or slower than the pit fiend, meaning even assuming it works, the fighter still can't stop the pit fiend from teleporting unless they started right next to each other and the fighter won initative.

Somehow the fighter has to get close to the pit fiend before combat begins.

Evem then, one wish fickle winds, the pit fiend can easily fly away and is now in hunt mode, makign the fighter lose.


Flawed wrote:
And I've posted a fighter that only fails it's save vs anything the pit fiend throws at him on a 1 including disbelieving the persistent image, sees through it's invisibility, has a high enough perception to notice the sneaking or disguised pit fiend, can fly over the walls. Maybe if I'm stupid enough to interact with items while traipsing through hell I deserve to have my soul trapped.

So, I took a look at Brutus and you really really haven't. What you have posted is a character desperately reliant on being able to use Touch of Rage, a buff which lasts from 2-5 rounds and which you can only use 6 times per day as well as a 1 minute duration Divine Favour you can use only 3/day.

Any vaguely intelligent opponent capable of at will teleport will simply allow you to run out your buffs before returning for the kill.

For anyone interested the fighter can be found here. It is also worth noting that Brutus is really only capable of achieving this much by becoming a caster and investing heavily in eldritch heritage and item crafting. Very little of his capacity comes from actually being a fighter.


Flawed wrote:
Squirrel Dude wrote:
Ah, it's because of the touch of rage power, using Eldritch Heritage. Yeah that works. It requires you to go first, but it does work, and +19 isn't that bad anyway. Although yo dou list the bonus as +11, and unless I'm missing something again, it should be +9 (18/2). That change would put you at +25, which still falls in range of needing a 1 to fail a save, so it doesn't matter that much to the situation anyway.
Courageous weapon bumps all morale bonuses by 2. By 3 vs evil outsiders.

Ah, okay. It's a good enchant, especially with your character's power, or if you have a bard in the party.

Apologies for my questions about the build. 20th level games and characters are pretty stupid to begin with ("You didn't make a contingency for X ability combo? Well, I guess I'll just end the story immediately now"), but 20th level character sheets are even worse for me to try and read. At least fighters normally don't carry the small arsenal of consumable items that a caster of any kind will.

That's a roundabout way of saying that I'm less trying to pick apart that character, and more trying to get a complete understanding of it.


Aelryinth wrote:

And he's forgetting we can use magic arrows...

==Aelryinth

Your starting to run out of WBL.

Even with all this. The fighter still can't win.


Flawed wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Flawed wrote:
swoosh wrote:
The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.

Use some of your 21 feats to be good at melee, archery, combat mobility, utilizing a mount, social events, spend 20,000 and get a carpet of flying that you guide around through verbal communication which is a free action and moves 60-80 feet a round, 7200 for jaunt boots help move around using 5 foot steps to get 15 feet of movement.

If you're running out of tricks because you can't full attack then work on different builds that add versatility. Don't invest heavily into DPR as it only matters to a point. Dealing 500+ damage a round is awesome, but entirely unnecessary as most things don't have that many HP and killing things in a single round shouldn't be your priority.

That would not solve the problem, not for the fighter class anyway.

You can take skill focus 5 times, but you dont really have 5 skills worth investing in for most games, not the skill points to support them. You also have TWF and archery which are feat intensive. However lets go back to the skills. Why you are trying to become a pseudo skilled guy some other class is doing that better than you, and depending on the other class it can surpass your damage at times.

12 intelligence and a favored class bonus gets you 4 per level. Stop dumping intelligence to maximize strength and enjoy more benefits. I also don't get your absurd argument that i need 5 skill focus feats when i never said anything of the sort. Why not just diplomacy and sense motive and be a face? A couple knowledge checks to play something thematic? Acrobatics for added combat mobility? Bluff and disguise to add to your infiltration abilities and be a skirmisher? A...

Except fighters also needs Str to hit and deal damage... con to suvive the front line... Dex to help his AC and actually utilize his ONE FREAKING CLASS ABILITY (Mithril pretty much makes Armor training pointless)... AND wis to make up for his mediocre will save...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The phase locking is on the bow or arrow. Locks him nicely. It's not restricted to melee weapons.

And the fighter can always have spell storing arrows or items to counteract any fickle winds.

==Aelryinth


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Without having read the entire thread, two things need to happen. First, combat maneuvers need to be made easier to get by removing the prereq feats and combining many of the existing feats for the maneuvers a bit. Pathfinder did a lot to make these easier to use, but a lot more needs to be done.

Second, all spell lists need to be redone, from scratch; they worked fine when clerics and wizards were the only casters in the game, but at this point, they need to be reworked. For the divine casters, I would personally like to see them make domains drive what spells the caster has access to; makes domains more of a core feature of their class while building in some rp enforcement into the mechanics by making the different flavors of deities matter. Wizards still have enough limitations in their own class that the list is not a big problem for them, assuming that the DM properly manages the resources he is giving the party, but using it as a base or starting point for every other full arcane casting class is not an effective solution.

Third, they need to formalize a different system, either a point system or the words of power system, for spontaneous casters in order to truly make the difference between prepared and spontaneous noticeable and real.

Fourth, they need to look at the numbers within the healing and destruction spells and rework them to make them functional within the greater math built into the system now, not the math built into earlier systems. That or look at the math of the overall system and reign it back in, but the former is far easier, and far more likely to happen. This way, people who want to play blasters and healers can actually do so, rather than every caster ending up being a summoning and buffing god because literally nothing else is effective.

In the end, I would have to say neither to the original question, as both nerfs and buffs are better off being used sparingly and when nothing else will work. What needs to be done is reexamining the base material for each class and seeing if it's still working as originally intended, and reworking it as needed. Simply reworking the spell lists and the math found within the spells themselves would fix most of the caster problems we've seen crop up since 3rd edition. Go back to the idea that not all clerics had access to the same spells, and limit the all encompassing arcane list to the wizard, which has definite limitations built into the class if you know where to find them (even with the d6 hit dice and unlimited cantrips which were much needed improvements), and the raw power of the casters is suddenly not an issue. Meanwhile, making maneuvers easier for all classes to get and use makes it easier for the non-full caster classes to add interesting options to combat that don't require a magical explanation.

EDIT: Fifth, change skill point allocation. Make each stat, or at worst, each major group of stats (physical and mental) provide skill points for related skills. This gives more skill points overall, making it more likely that more skills would be used while enforcing a focus. A wizard that chooses to dump their physical stats would not be able to be stealthier than a rogue that invested heavily in both dex and stealth. Again, this provides more options overall while making it less likely that any one character is going to dominate overall.


Aelryinth wrote:

The phase locking is on the bow or arrow. Locks him nicely. It's not restricted to melee weapons.

And the fighter can always have spell storing arrows or items to counteract any fickle winds.

==Aelryinth

Eh just post it then. We can all see the pit fiend's stats. These fighters seem to have +11 weapons and a utility belt +plus 30 feats.

Even then, they might sort've have a shot at winning some of the time.


Aelryinth wrote:

The phase locking is on the bow or arrow. Locks him nicely. It's not restricted to melee weapons.

And the fighter can always have spell storing arrows or items to counteract any fickle winds.

==Aelryinth

Phase locking only lasts for 1 round and reads that the creature is "affected as though by the dimensional anchor spell". That arguably means that spell resistance would apply in much the same way it would apply to a spell storing weapon discharging its spell on the target.

In relation to weapons the spell resistance section only says that enhancement bonuses are not subject to SR.

Quote:
Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not.

If phase locking is subject to SR then it becomes irrelevant as its CL is 7.


andreww wrote:
Flawed wrote:
And I've posted a fighter that only fails it's save vs anything the pit fiend throws at him on a 1 including disbelieving the persistent image, sees through it's invisibility, has a high enough perception to notice the sneaking or disguised pit fiend, can fly over the walls. Maybe if I'm stupid enough to interact with items while traipsing through hell I deserve to have my soul trapped.

So, I took a look at Brutus and you really really haven't. What you have posted is a character desperately reliant on being able to use Touch of Rage, a buff which lasts from 2-5 rounds and which you can only use 6 times per day as well as a 1 minute duration Divine Favour you can use only 3/day.

Any vaguely intelligent opponent capable of at will teleport will simply allow you to run out your buffs before returning for the kill.

For anyone interested the fighter can be found here. It is also worth noting that Brutus is really only capable of achieving this much by becoming a caster and investing heavily in eldritch heritage and item crafting. Very little of his capacity comes from actually being a fighter.

Becoming a caster? He has no spell list. He has items that can cast spells like anyone can buy and feats grant some SLAs like anyone can take. The feats you choose don't define your class they define your character. The point of the build was that a fighter doesn't have to use any of their feats from character levels to gain more combat prowess and to prove that a fighter can provide more and do things that no one gives credit for. If you really think a fighter should only be taking combat feats then your skewed opinion of a fighters use is answered by your own failing builds.

How does any vaguely intelligent creature know how many times I can use my buffs per day?

I like how mad you guys are though that someone could possibly believe something you don't and their audacity for posting something contrary to your personal opinion. You guys must always be right.

How did I not provide what I said. He can save on any spell the pit fiend throws at him on a 1, sees through invisibility, has a high enough perception to bypass the fiends skills, can fly over walls. Seems like it lives up to the bargain.

Thanks for posting the build during your rage induced rant while it's already been posted above. It's a good read and needs to be further mentioned.


Wow you are bizarrely defensive about your fighter. I am not seeing where the rage induced rant is. You also ignore the bit about being totally dependant on touch of rage. Good luck with that.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Except fighters also needs Str to hit and deal damage... con to suvive the front line... Dex to help his AC and actually utilize his ONE FREAKING CLASS ABILITY (Mithril pretty much makes Armor training pointless)... AND wis to make up for his mediocre will save...

So Mithril provides a +2 to dex and -3 to ACP and armor training provides a +4 and -4 respectively. It means the fighter gets to save resources. Fighters also gain the ability to move full speed in any armor through this ability too. Anyone in Mithril full plate gets a +3 to dex. A fighter in regular full plate gets a +5. It means a fighter will have a higher AC and is far from worthless.

In a 15 point buy a human can have:

Str 14+2
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 7

And still max out AC from dex in regular full plate with a belt. Should he be a dex build he could opt for Mithril and get up to +7 from dex. Hardly worthless. The problem is people that want to maximize strength because they've confused doing insane damage and overkill with the only way to play.

Fighters get several class abilities. Weapon training, armor training, bravery, and 11 feats. They also gain access to feats based on their class that only a few archetypes can manage to gain access to.


andreww wrote:
Wow you are bizarrely defensive about your fighter. I am not seeing where the rage induced rant is. You also ignore the bit about being totally dependant on touch of rage. Good luck with that.

The build was based around the Eldritch heritage feats and celestial obedience and having a magical flair to it that people think a fighter isn't capable of, such as item creation feats. What does it matter that something built around an ability relies on that ability. This is as bad as saying a wizard relies on spells. Good luck with that.


Flawed wrote:
The build was based around the Eldritch heritage feats and celestial obedience and having a magical flair to it that people think a fighter isn't capable of, such as item creation feats. What does it matter that something built around an ability relies on that ability. This is as bad as saying a wizard relies on spells. Good luck with that.

So you are still going to ignore the issue that your ability to go much of anything is completely dependant on a buff which only lasts 2-5 rounds and that it is extremely easy to simply avoid you until it runs out.


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From a few pages back, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Batman is an Urban Ranger with Favored Enemy (Superstitious and Cowardly Lot).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Batman also wins a lot due to GM fiat...


andreww wrote:
Flawed wrote:
The build was based around the Eldritch heritage feats and celestial obedience and having a magical flair to it that people think a fighter isn't capable of, such as item creation feats. What does it matter that something built around an ability relies on that ability. This is as bad as saying a wizard relies on spells. Good luck with that.
So you are still going to ignore the issue that your ability to go much of anything is completely dependant on a buff which only lasts 2-5 rounds and that it is extremely easy to simply avoid you until it runs out.

The adventuring day is typically 4 combats lasting 4-6 rounds. The abilities listed last long enough. The build is far from optimized and was never the goal of it. He dual wields one handed weapons and suffers a -4/-4. You seem to be missing the point when I keep repeating it just so you can cling to this single comment for some self righteous justification. Good luck with that. I don't care.

I'm a little curious as to how creatures are supposed to know what my buffs are, how long they last, and how many times I can use them per day to know that they should just run away. Also why the same tactic doesn't then apply to any other aspect of the game like any other caster, but again, I don't care. Good luck with that.


honestly, this is a large thread, so its probably been brought up before, and most people will glance over this post.

i think some martials need brought up, i thnk some need some adjustments, and a good few casters need tweaking.

But thats not the point of this post, rather, a much larger changed i think would be AMAZING for the game worlds we play, is if some spells simply are not obtainable to mortals (PC's)

make a number of truly reality altering spells only thru NPC's/monsters/fantastic beings.

you want to get a wish spell? you have to track down a GENIE and get it to grant you a wish

you need resurection? better find something like a celestial or demonic being with magical powers, and better hope you can find a way to get it to cast it.

What this would do, is shape the world, suddenly fantastic creatures are not just deadly spells and big attacks, they have things players simply cannot get!

however these all powerful spells would still be in the game world, there value would skyrocket

and imagine the RP value? you want something fantastic done? (like wish) you have to embark on a journey IMPROMPTU to find a genie and then figure out how to get it to grant you the wish you want.

This, imo, would go MILES towards keeping casters from having all those game altering abilities, woudl make the gameworld incredible.


Ah, Crafting feats. That thing that unbalances the game pretty easily.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.


Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.

Not without an appropriate knowledge check. Orcs don't fall under arcana, religion, or planes.

Scavion wrote:
Ah, Crafting feats. That thing that unbalances the game pretty easily.

And yet they exist and everyone can take them. The build that was posted has 30,000 over the standard WBL of a level 20 character. Hardly unbalancing.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.
Not without an appropriate knowledge check. Orcs don't fall under arcana, religion, or planes.

Orc sorcerer bloodline is an arcana check, actually.


Bandw2 wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.
Not without an appropriate knowledge check. Orcs don't fall under arcana, religion, or planes.
Orc sorcerer bloodline is an arcana check, actually.

Got a rules quote that says that or should I just take your opinion as gospel.


Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.

The pit fiend's +31 Spellcraft and +28 knowledge arcana might also help.


Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.
Not without an appropriate knowledge check. Orcs don't fall under arcana, religion, or planes.
Orc sorcerer bloodline is an arcana check, actually.
Got a rules quote that says that or should I just take your opinion as gospel.

Sorcerer class features don't fall under knowledge arcana?

K


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

nope, I actually checked up on what I thought suggested it, and it just says "knowledge checks". I could a swore I read it some where, but oh well. I was mistaken.(it was a trait)

Still I'd like to know what you think sorcerer bloodline knowledge should fall under. Local? because that seems a really weird knowledge check for magic powers.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.
Not without an appropriate knowledge check. Orcs don't fall under arcana, religion, or planes.
Orc sorcerer bloodline is an arcana check, actually.
Got a rules quote that says that or should I just take your opinion as gospel.

Sorcerer class features don't fall under knowledge arcana?

K

So no rules quote?

K


Bandw2 wrote:

nope, I actually checked up on what I thought suggested it, and it just says "knowledge checks". I could a swore I read it some where, but oh well. I was mistaken.(it was a trait)

Still I'd like to know what you think sorcerer bloodline knowledge should fall under. Local? because that seems a really weird knowledge check for magic powers.

I'd imagine the check is applicable to each bloodline. Whatever creature the bloodline stems from is the applicable knowledge. I'd imagine orcs being humanoid would fall under a knowledge local check to know about orcs and what their bloodlines entail.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

So, if we're going to continue this discussion, we have to determine what type of check identifying a Sorcerer bloodline is. I say it's Arcana, that's how I have GM ruled it before.

Touch of Rage is definitely a magical effect.

and a check to determine on going magical effects is a DC 20+spell level arcana check. with +28 arcana he succeeds regardless of it's spell level on a 1, so he can identify it.


Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)

Seems like the pit fiend would know whats up. Note, none of those checks require detect magic.


Bandw2 wrote:

So, if we're going to continue this discussion, we have to determine what type of check identifying a Sorcerer bloodline is. I say it's Arcana, that's how I have GM ruled it before.

Touch of Rage is definitely a magical effect.

and a check to determine on going magical effects is a DC 20+spell level arcana check. with +28 arcana he succeeds regardless of it;s spell level on a 1, so he can identify it.

I like to point out that we are looking at this stuff when trying to argue about Fighter abilities.

Seems odd.

Shadow Lodge

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need to know how long they last or how many times per day, just that they aren't permanent and their nature. Any creature with 26 intelligence will probably understand how most buffs work, and might even have knowledge of your bloodline.
Not without an appropriate knowledge check. Orcs don't fall under arcana, religion, or planes.
Orc sorcerer bloodline is an arcana check, actually.
Got a rules quote that says that or should I just take your opinion as gospel.

Sorcerer class features don't fall under knowledge arcana?

K

Actually, if the Sorcerer is a Human, I believe it is Knowledge Local.

Because in order to find out a creature's special abilities, you must make an appropriate Knowledge check. Humans are of the Humanoid[Human] type, so it would take a Knowledge Local to ID them. The DC would be equal to 15[I'm assuming you are a particularly rare creature, there is only one after all]+CR[Which, for a Twentieth level PC, should be Twenty, right?], for a DC35 Knowledge Local check. Which the Pit-Fiend can't make.[unless, of course, I'm totally off about this, there might be special rules for IDing PC's].

Also, as food for thought, How long would it take a Well-Prepared Wizard to take out a Pit-Fiend? Compared to the Fighter?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
EvilPaladin wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
stuff

Actually, if the Sorcerer is a Human, I believe it is Knowledge Local.

Because in order to find out a creature's special abilities, you must make an appropriate Knowledge check. Humans are of the Humanoid[Human] type, so it would take a Knowledge Local to ID them. The DC would be equal to 15[I'm assuming you are a particularly rare creature, there is only one after all]+CR[Which, for a Twentieth level PC, should be Twenty, right?], for a DC35 Knowledge Local check. Which the Pit-Fiend can't make.[unless, of course, I'm totally off about this, there might be special rules for IDing PC's].

Also, as food for thought, How long would it take a Well-Prepared Wizard to take out a Pit-Fiend? Compared to the Fighter?

except that those aren't your average humans powers, aka, your knowledge of humans doesn't actually help you identify what that human is doing.


So, really quickly on the "How would the Devil know blah blah blah" discussion.

1. It wouldn't be a knowledge check to recognize the ability as it is being activated. That would be a spellcraft check. Touch of Rage is an SLA. Spell-Like Abilities function just like spells.

2. If you need to decide whether the Pit Fiend would know about the ability ahead of time, things get a bit tricky. Class features are not specifically called out as being part of any knowledge check,so we'll have to estimate which knowledge works best for it.

It would most likely fall best under knowledge (Arcana), which covers "Ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts," more than it would knowledge (Local), which covers "legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids." Even though it is an Orc Bloodline power, it's not stated that a character needs to be an Orc or Half-Orc to play that sorcerer.

3. It would be a knowledge check to identify the spell effect if it is already in place. That is a clearly listed use of Knowledge Arcana. [source].

Aside: I'm not really sure why the power is a spell-like ability. It's not replicating a spell in any way, and would seem to make far more sense as an (Su) ability, than as an (Sp) one.


EvilPaladin wrote:
Also, as food for thought, How long would it take a Well-Prepared Wizard to take out a Pit-Fiend? Compared to the Fighter?

It takes some doing, but planar bound army of devils or sno-cone army should do the trick.

Some optimized wizard builds would just zap the pit-fiend dead in one turn.

A better question is which level 20 wizard couldn't kill the pit fiend and under what conditions, 100% of the time. Maybe if they dump int or something. I guess bad spells prepped would do the trick too.


Flawed wrote:


Scavion wrote:
Ah, Crafting feats. That thing that unbalances the game pretty easily.
And yet they exist and everyone can take them. The build that was posted has 30,000 over the standard WBL of a level 20 character. Hardly unbalancing.

=)

And yet nearly every GM I've met or played with has banned crafting feats. They vastly change wealth expectations and progression. Pretty much the best way to derail attention from how poor a class is is to bring up how crafting makes them better.

So congratulations.


and as i thought everyone is talking about a pit fiend and a fighter at this point heh :)


I already said that I'd rule it appropriate to the bloodline. Sure Touch of Rage is an SLA and knowledge arcana can tell you what it's effects are. It can't tell you how many times I can use it in a day or where I've gained the ability from. It would need the appropriate knowledge check to know its a bloodline ability and even then knowledge checks don't tell you my stats or feats to know how often I can use it and if it's quickened.

Let's just not continue this conversation because it serves no function much like threads about disparity serve no function. Enough information has already been provided by Aelryinth alone to prove that a level 20 fighter with appropriate gear for his level is capable of fighting a pit fiend with a 50/50 survival rate as per CR system. Choosing to believe it or not won't change anything if that's your opinion. I don't see fighters as pathetic as people make them out to be and neither does the mass number of players that play them.

The build that I mentioned was strictly in regards to making saving throws vs. a pit fiend and only failing on a roll of 1. The build was never intended as anything more than using the fighter class features to provide combat prowess with minimal use of your character level feats. Character level feats were to provide utility outside of the normal fighter role that people seem to think of on these boards. He had skill focus perception, survival, and spellcraft to be able to track creatures, notice them if they hide, and identify anything the cast along with being able to make magic items without needing any spells.


To try and slightly move things back on topic:

1. Should casters be brought back down? Yes. If we can't accept that their power level needs to be brought down, then I would at least hope the number of times they can unleash that power be reigned in. The amount of spells high level wizards and clerics are throwing out in single rounds can be quite disgusting.

2. Should martial classes be buffed up? Eh, Pathfinder's 1st party stuff is pretty weak IMO, so yeah. I've always loved the Warblade and Swordsage, and I am also a fan of the Stalker, Warder, Warlord and Psychic Warrior. If we were to just keep those classes around I would be happier.

I've never had a problem with Weaboo fightin magics, though.


EvilPaladin wrote:
Also, as food for thought, How long would it take a Well-Prepared Wizard to take out a Pit-Fiend? Compared to the Fighter?

Pretty much any of the level 9 casters can one shot it in a single round with your preferred save or suck/lose spell and spell perfection. SR31 just isn't very high at this level, even assuming you use a spell subject to it. Between spell penetration (+4), the otherworldly kimono (+4) and the doubling from spell perfection you automatically bypass its SR with your preferred spell. With an orange ioun stone the rest of them beat it on a 2. With some dweomer essence it is completely irrelevant. With a ref of 21 it is horribly vulnerable to dazing evocations or conjurations and with a will of +19 it is at serious risk of being dominated.

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