Should martials be buffed... or casters brought down?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Also, I think many are saying they dont want casters to have cosmic powers.
Semi Phenomenal, nearly cosmic powers please. :)

Iiiiiiiiitty bitty living space.

Bandw2 wrote:

basically, i think if a wizard should be able to do something godlike, a fighter should be able to do something awesome as well. like cut a mountain in half.

Awesome is something else that's subjective. I think cleaving a mountain in half is ridiculous and that martials can already do awesome things. Standing toe to toe with most creatures is beyond the mortal commoner.


Bandw2 wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
basically, i think if a wizard should be able to do something godlike, a fighter should be able to do something awesome as well. like cut a mountain in half.

So now that we've taken care of wizards and fighters, what classes would you recommend for people who don't want the medieval JLA?

i keep doing this, i say fighter, when i mean any martial, or martial like abilities.

also, if you don't want the game to get to that power level, then you end the game at a lower level.

As it is, you only get to play for about 5 levels as a skilled normal, compared with about 15 as a superhuman.

And anyway, it doesn't matter what the wizards can do, I'm quite happy making the maximum possible for fighters = Batman.

Batman is like a level 5-6 fighter... COVERED in magic items out of his WBL. XD

I say Batman is a level 20 Fighter/Rogue/Matial Artist Gestalt with the super money power. Most of the time he doesn't wear an enhancement belt, putting his strength and all other stats at about 20 (Actually his strength is 27 as per comic book lore, since he bench presses over 1000 lbs).

That may be the issue. Fighters never really get better than Batman and they don't get the Super-Wealth and ninja like skills to go with it, meanwhile Everyone else is like either actual deities or pretty close.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I say Batman is a level 20

The Litmus Test of 20th level martialness: Could he, using no special tricks, regularly out-wrestle a T-Rex?

Batman ain't 20.


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Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I say Batman is a level 20

The Litmus Test of 20th level martialness: Could he, using no special tricks, regularly out-wrestle a T-Rex?

Batman ain't 20.

You were saying?


Valian wrote:
Or, in other words, if the game alreay support me to move and make a single attack with a standard action (partial charge), why I cannot usa a move action to move, then use a standard action to make a full attack? It doesn't make sense.

Nope, it's pretty silly.


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Valian wrote:
Or, in other words, if the game alreay support me to move and make a single attack with a standard action (partial charge), why I cannot usa a move action to move, then use a standard action to make a full attack? It doesn't make sense.
Nope, it's pretty silly.

I think it is mainly because full attacks are such encounter enders.

If we want martials to be able to do more things, I think their damage needs toned down.


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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I think it is mainly because full attacks are such encounter enders.

BFCs are encounter enders. Full attacks are the thing you're expected to do basically every round. It's what every martial is built around.

That said, you are partially right. Damage isn't the answer. You could build a fighter that one shot anything on a charge in 3.5 and that didn't fix most of his problems.

The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.


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swoosh wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I think it is mainly because full attacks are such encounter enders.

BFCs are encounter enders. Full attacks are the thing you're expected to do basically every round. It's what every martial is built around.

That said, you are partially right. Damage isn't the answer. You could build a fighter that one shot anything on a charge in 3.5 and that didn't fix most of his problems.

The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.

Someone asks if they can do cool stuff from myths, someone says that's anime bull#!$&, topic ends without resolution.


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Bandw2 wrote:
Grimmy wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:


This game is to be played for fun. These characters are meant to be fun to play. The game should not be balanced around "well his character will be fun at this point in the game and yours will be fun at this point."
power =/= fun for everyone.

this is like the statement money doesn't buy happiness.

It just happens people who have more money are happier.

:/

Money makes it easier to find happiness (plus, poverty buys a lot of misery), but only to a point. If you have millions of dollars but aren't happy, then having billions is unlikely to change that.


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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I say Batman is a level 20

The Litmus Test of 20th level martialness: Could he, using no special tricks, regularly out-wrestle a T-Rex?

Batman ain't 20.

You were saying?

Riding =/= Wrestling.

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Flawed wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Also, I think many are saying they dont want casters to have cosmic powers.
Semi Phenomenal, nearly cosmic powers please. :)
Iiiiiiiiitty bitty living space.

Oh, the itty bitty living space is in the game!

...It's Rope Trick.


Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I say Batman is a level 20

The Litmus Test of 20th level martialness: Could he, using no special tricks, regularly out-wrestle a T-Rex?

Batman ain't 20.

You were saying?
Riding =/= Wrestling.

Now you are just being pedantic.


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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I say Batman is a level 20

The Litmus Test of 20th level martialness: Could he, using no special tricks, regularly out-wrestle a T-Rex?

Batman ain't 20.

You were saying?
Riding =/= Wrestling.
Now you are just being pedantic.

Dude as someone who has both wrestled and ridden horses, they are nowhere near the same thing.


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swoosh wrote:
The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.

Use some of your 21 feats to be good at melee, archery, combat mobility, utilizing a mount, social events, spend 20,000 and get a carpet of flying that you guide around through verbal communication which is a free action and moves 60-80 feet a round, 7200 for jaunt boots help move around using 5 foot steps to get 15 feet of movement.

If you're running out of tricks because you can't full attack then work on different builds that add versatility. Don't invest heavily into DPR as it only matters to a point. Dealing 500+ damage a round is awesome, but entirely unnecessary as most things don't have that many HP and killing things in a single round shouldn't be your priority.


Indeed. Even in PF mechanics, they are completely different. One is a skill check, the other is a grapple attempt.

Can Batman, without using any gear or trick, grapple a T-Rex? Can he survive jumping from the moon or being immersed in lava? Is he as powerful as a Pit Fiend?

Batman isn't anywhere near 20th level. I'd be surprised if he reached the double digits.

IMO, he's a 6~8th level character who rolled 4~6 18s for his attributes, is using an extremely broken gestalt (or homebrew) class and has wealth way over the expected for his level.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Valian wrote:
Or, in other words, if the game alreay support me to move and make a single attack with a standard action (partial charge), why I cannot usa a move action to move, then use a standard action to make a full attack? It doesn't make sense.
Nope, it's pretty silly.

I think it is mainly because full attacks are such encounter enders.

If we want martials to be able to do more things, I think their damage needs toned down.

Druids and Clerics can get close to fighter(the class) level damage, and they still get options that are strong enough on their own that they can control a fight without actually making weapon based attacks. They need to buff to do it, but at higher levels that is not really a problem.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I say Batman is a level 20

The Litmus Test of 20th level martialness: Could he, using no special tricks, regularly out-wrestle a T-Rex?

Batman ain't 20.

You were saying?
Riding =/= Wrestling.
Now you are just being pedantic.
Dude as someone who has both wrestled and ridden horses, they are nowhere near the same thing.

Yes but you didn't have wrestle the horse into submission before you could ride it.


Lemmy wrote:

Indeed. Even in PF mechanics, they are completely different. One is a skill check, the other is a grapple attempt.

Can Batman, without using any gear or trick, grapple a T-Rex? Can he survive jumping from the moon or being immersed in lava? Is he as powerful as a Pit Fiend?

Batman isn't anywhere near 20th level. I'd be surprised if he reached the double digits.

IMO, he's a 6~8th level character who rolled 4~6 18s for his attributes, is using an extremely broken gestalt (or homebrew) class and has wealth way over the expected for his level.

Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?

No, I actually do think Batman is level 20, (needs at least 27 strength to bench press what he can). I think that is the problem though.

Batman might just be a rogue though.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?

A level 20 fighter with proper WBL, yes.


Flawed wrote:
swoosh wrote:
The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.

Use some of your 21 feats to be good at melee, archery, combat mobility, utilizing a mount, social events, spend 20,000 and get a carpet of flying that you guide around through verbal communication which is a free action and moves 60-80 feet a round, 7200 for jaunt boots help move around using 5 foot steps to get 15 feet of movement.

If you're running out of tricks because you can't full attack then work on different builds that add versatility. Don't invest heavily into DPR as it only matters to a point. Dealing 500+ damage a round is awesome, but entirely unnecessary as most things don't have that many HP and killing things in a single round shouldn't be your priority.

That would not solve the problem, not for the fighter class anyway.

You can take skill focus 5 times, but you dont really have 5 skills worth investing in for most games, not the skill points to support them. You also have TWF and archery which are feat intensive. However lets go back to the skills. Why you are trying to become a pseudo skilled guy some other class is doing that better than you, and depending on the other class it can surpass your damage at times.

Even taking UMD won't really help because you will need the right scroll or wand, and that also takes away from you buying the items you need just to keep up for as long as you can.

Spells are so much better than feats that you can't even keep up with classes that only get up to 4 levels of spells like the ranger and paladin.


wraithstrike wrote:
Flawed wrote:
swoosh wrote:
The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.

Use some of your 21 feats to be good at melee, archery, combat mobility, utilizing a mount, social events, spend 20,000 and get a carpet of flying that you guide around through verbal communication which is a free action and moves 60-80 feet a round, 7200 for jaunt boots help move around using 5 foot steps to get 15 feet of movement.

If you're running out of tricks because you can't full attack then work on different builds that add versatility. Don't invest heavily into DPR as it only matters to a point. Dealing 500+ damage a round is awesome, but entirely unnecessary as most things don't have that many HP and killing things in a single round shouldn't be your priority.

That would not solve the problem, not for the fighter class anyway.

You can take skill focus 5 times, but you dont really have 5 skills worth investing in for most games, not the skill points to support them. You also have TWF and archery which are feat intensive. However lets go back to the skills. Why you are trying to become a pseudo skilled guy some other class is doing that better than you, and depending on the other class it can surpass your damage at times.

12 intelligence and a favored class bonus gets you 4 per level. Stop dumping intelligence to maximize strength and enjoy more benefits. I also don't get your absurd argument that i need 5 skill focus feats when i never said anything of the sort. Why not just diplomacy and sense motive and be a face? A couple knowledge checks to play something thematic? Acrobatics for added combat mobility? Bluff and disguise to add to your infiltration abilities and be a skirmisher? A couple archetypes get more and one can use bonus fighter feats for skill focus. Why are you trying to build a character off of two feat intensive builds? Arguing that it's not possible because you want to use something that requires the most amount of feats isn't an argument. "I want to cast nothing but 9th level spells, but I don't get that many a day and have to use others. Omg wizards are no good." Why even play the game if I have to pick the class that does it best. That's not a good argument either. It's a role playing game which means I can play any class and choose the role I want to play. The system is there to make it happen within the limitations.

Wraithstrike wrote:
Even taking UMD won't really help because you will need the right scroll or wand, and that also takes away from you buying the items you need just to keep up for as long as you can.

Do you really think the wizard gained access to all of those spells without spending any of his WBL or needing to spend money on spell components?

Wraithstrike wrote:
Spells are so much better than feats that you can't even keep up with classes that only get up to 4 levels of spells like the ranger and paladin.

Not every spell, but some are. I'm not seeing where the fighter doesn't keep up with what he's intended to do. This is akin to saying you're upset because your wizard doesn't do 500+ DPR with his staff.


Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?
A level 20 fighter with proper WBL, yes.

I don't believe you* can make a fighter that can win against a pit fiend. With enough optimization the pit fiend may not be able to just stand there and trade full attacks, but it shouldn't be able to lose.

*general you


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?
A level 20 fighter with proper WBL, yes.

I don't believe you* can make a fighter that can win against a pit fiend. With enough optimization the pit fiend may not be able to just stand there and trade full attacks, but it shouldn't be able to lose.

*general you

What is it about the pit fiend that just says it shouldn't be able to lose?


Flawed wrote:
I'm not seeing where the fighter doesn't keep up with what he's intended to do.

In my experience, it's the fighting that the Fighter has trouble with. As levels get up there enemy full attacks will rip my fighter to shreds and he doesn't have nearly enough tactical options not to be easily accounted for by the enemy.

His job seems to be "have really high to-hit and damage", it's then up to the casters to counter casters so that he can actually use that damage. Of course that only works out if the casters don't just take everyone out themselves. My character is nothing more than a pawn in the caster's chess match.

It's easy to turn on the blinders and just pretend that the casters are their to support me, but I know that I could be easily replaced by a couple summons or a bound demon, or even just the casters army of bloody skeletons. My character is tactically expendable. Our group is low optimized enough that only the GM and I know that though.


Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?
A level 20 fighter with proper WBL, yes.

I don't believe you* can make a fighter that can win against a pit fiend. With enough optimization the pit fiend may not be able to just stand there and trade full attacks, but it shouldn't be able to lose.

*general you

What is it about the pit fiend that just says it shouldn't be able to lose?

Greater Teleport as an at will SLA. If it ever feels that it is in danger of losing, it can instantly retreat and return again. It also has Mass Hold Monster as an at will SLA, so it can simply stay away from the fighter while spamming that SLA out until the fighter fails his save (A will save, probably be his worst). It has a very tough DR to pass with arrows (good & silver), so it will be hard to beat it at ranged, and it has a base fly speed that's hard to get with gear (60 ft.). If he gets the fighter below 150 hitpoints, power word stun is a no-save, just suck spell, and will on average stun the fighter for 2.5 rounds (aka, stun locked for the entire fight).

The Pit Fiend also has some pretty bad feats (cleave, really?), that if replaced with more appropriate selections, would make the monster stronger that presented in the book.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
I'm not seeing where the fighter doesn't keep up with what he's intended to do.
In my experience, it's the fighting that the Fighter has trouble with. As levels get up there enemy full attacks will rip my fighter to shreds and he doesn't have nearly enough tactical options not to be easily accounted for by the enemy.

A well-built Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin/Magus/Inquisitor will turn the Pit Fiend into paste. The Fighter is the odd man out.

And also, while a lvl 20 Fighter and a lvl 20 Barbarian have exactly the same CR, that's something that should not happen.


Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?
A level 20 fighter with proper WBL, yes.

I don't believe you* can make a fighter that can win against a pit fiend. With enough optimization the pit fiend may not be able to just stand there and trade full attacks, but it shouldn't be able to lose.

*general you

What is it about the pit fiend that just says it shouldn't be able to lose?

Well with regeneration you can't kill it without an aligned good weapon. So there goes some of your WBL to handle that. It can fling fire-balls at you all day from 1120ft away and flies at 60ft per round. So need to be at-least that fast to even catch it and be able to do that all day. An archer will have to get through the range increment penalties and it's 42 AC (unholy aura is an at-will power). So you will need energy resistance, and an Ion stone to prevent mind affecting abilities (or else it can just fly around you spraying save or loses). Even then you'll need a decently high save to avoid trap the soul.

It can also just teleport away whenever it gets low on health, rest up for a few minutes and come back at you. So you will need to be able to kill it in either one strike or one full attack(and somehow be able to get a full attack off).

It can also create enless hords of undead and summon 1 CR 19 or lower devil to also join the fight. Let's just say a Puragaus, who can cut through fire imunity and widdle the fighter away with it's 80ft fly speed.

If you can counter all that somehow with money and the fighter, I'll be impressed.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
I'm not seeing where the fighter doesn't keep up with what he's intended to do.
In my experience, it's the fighting that the Fighter has trouble with. As levels get up there enemy full attacks will rip my fighter to shreds and he doesn't have nearly enough tactical options not to be easily accounted for by the enemy.

YMMV. I've never had a fighter get ripped to shreds in melee combat. Fighters generally have some of the highest AC gaining the most bonus out of dex to armor. You shouldn't be getting hit by every attack unless you've invested minimally to your defenses to favor offense. I see this often on these boards as the kill it fast so it can't hit back option outweighs everything for the terms of efficiency. If a fight ends in 5 rounds and the fighter loses 100 HP vs a fight ending in 10 rounds and the fighter losing 50 HP the latter is more efficient. Rounds and time are not deemed a resource and as a round is 6 seconds the difference is 30 seconds for half the damage.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
His job seems to be "have really high to-hit and damage", it's then up to the casters to counter casters so that he can actually use that damage. Of course that only works out if the casters don't just take everyone out themselves. My character is nothing more than a pawn in the caster's chess match.

Since fighters come with things like weapon training maybe weapon focus and specialization aren't that good compared to shield focus and dodge. Favoring offense only matters because some people think you have to end fights right away and a caster can't keep pace with long combats as they'll spend too many resources. Forcing a class to function in a non optimal situation makes the class seem non optimal.

If your casters can end combat by themselves why can't the enemy casters do the same? Seems like an arbitrary statement to make martials seem worse than they are.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
It's easy to turn on the blinders and just pretend that the casters are their to support me, but I know that I could be easily replaced by a couple summons or a bound demon, or even just the casters army of bloody skeletons. My character is tactically expendable. Our group is low optimized enough that only the GM and I know that though.

No blinders needed although you're choosing to use them in the opposite regard as well. It takes time to summon creatures or bind a demon. While they're busy doing those things the enemies are beating them to death without someone to protect them. Yes they then don't have to spend resources to heal you, unfortunately they spent resources to summon or bind and unless they didn't want their summons to last more than a round or to do nothing in a round then a very high level resource was spent probably higher than a 6th level heal to put you back to full HP.


Flawed wrote:
Fighters generally have some of the highest AC gaining the most bonus out of dex to armor.

That has turned out to be my experience as well. Most monsters don't see to care though. Not every attack has to hit for the fighter to get ripped to shreads anyways.


Flawed wrote:
No blinders needed although you're choosing to use them in the opposite regard as well. It takes time to summon creatures or bind a demon. While they're busy doing those things the enemies are beating them to death without someone to protect them. Yes they then don't have to spend resources to heal you, unfortunately they spent resources to summon or bind and unless they didn't want their summons to last more than a round or to do nothing in a round then a very high level resource was spent probably higher than a 6th level heal to put you back to full HP.

Binding take no combat time, and generally no resources for that day since it last a day per level.

Wall spell + summoning tends to be pretty effective, and that's assuming the party has no druids, battle-clerics, or magi that can tie up the front for a round or two.

A few slots shouldn't be able to replace a character. Instead of me they could have another caster. At which point the party has a net gain. The fighter is a positive to the party when compared to not having another team member.


Flawed wrote:


If your casters can end combat by themselves why can't the enemy casters do the same? Seems like an arbitrary statement to make martials seem worse than they are.

This is a silly statement. Because most enemies at that level are casters, and, can in fact end a fight through casting.

A pit fiend, from behind its persistent image, invisibility, +27 disguise, +28 stealth, and several walls of fire can cut off individuals and suck out their soul with at will trap the soul's.

This is not some specialized pit fiend it's a stock run of the mill boring as written in the book.


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I will point out that in my mind the fighter is the lowest possible choice for thigns to have in terms of martials.

There are much better options.

For example it's hard to argue with a multiple immunity highly resilient paladin backed by its own minor buffs. OR a raging, pouncing, come and get me maniac with saves so far into the stratosphere that smashes apart magic with the sheer force of its disdain.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?
A level 20 fighter with proper WBL, yes.

I don't believe you* can make a fighter that can win against a pit fiend. With enough optimization the pit fiend may not be able to just stand there and trade full attacks, but it shouldn't be able to lose.

*general you

What is it about the pit fiend that just says it shouldn't be able to lose?

Well with regeneration you can't kill it without an aligned good weapon. So there goes some of your WBL to handle that. It can fling fire-balls at you all day from 1120ft away and flies at 60ft per round. So need to be at-least that fast to even catch it and be able to do that all day. An archer will have to get through the range increment penalties and it's 42 AC (unholy aura is an at-will power). So you will need energy resistance, and an Ion stone to prevent mind affecting abilities (or else it can just fly around you spraying save or loses). Even then you'll need a decently high save to avoid trap the soul.

It can also just teleport away whenever it get low on health, rest up for a few minutes and come back at you. So you will need to be able to kill it in either one strike or one full attack(and somehow be able to get a full attack off).

It can also create enless hords of undead and summon 1 CR 19 or lower devil to also join the fight. Let's just say a Puragaus, who can cut through fire imunity and widdle the fighter away with it's 80ft fly speed.

If you can counter all that somehow with money and the fighter, I'll be impressed.

Wouldn't a properly geared fighter have a +5 weapon or simply a +1 Holy weapon relatively easy by 20th level with his nearly 900,000 gold. Not much losing out on 18-50k of your overall wealth which makes it's regeneration pretty moot.

Unholy aura only affects good creatures. Does nothing for it vs anyone neutral or evil. At will also requires a standard action to use. One less action to get away from an archer. Even if it's a good fighter you can build to have potential +50 to hit possibly higher by level 20. That means the first two attacks are auto hits and the next ones aren't that hard of a roll either.

It lacks any means to see invisibility so a UMD wand of greater invisibility mitigates it's range using any spell and targeting you with any spell. Most of its spells have a close range so it'll be within the first range increment of an archer.

I posted a build recently of a melee fighter with a +25 will save at level 20 and capable of dealing 700 DPR on a full attack. A single full attack ends the fight in a single round. Archer builds can generally post higher DPR than melee.

You don't need energy resistance just a ring of evasion and an ok reflex saving throw. Although potions are cheap. The Ioun stone wayfinder combo is 4500 GP. Moot for a level 20.

By level 20 a fighter will have a means of flying. The hordes of undead mean nothing if they can't reach you. The cr 19 devil is easier to kill than the cr 20 devil.


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also, I still say there's nothing to suggest that batman is exceptionally high level. He DOES use enhancement items, just not all the time or in every series, as he often has an exoskeleton for strength. remember the average human is like a lvl 1 commoner, and in the case of henchmen a lvl 1 warrior.


TarkXT wrote:
Flawed wrote:


If your casters can end combat by themselves why can't the enemy casters do the same? Seems like an arbitrary statement to make martials seem worse than they are.
This is a silly statement. Because most enemies at that level are casters, and, can in fact end a fight through casting.

What was silly is pretending that your casters can end a combat with one spell where the enemy casters couldn't. This is all also dependent on failing saving throws and makes the assumption that everyone has. If that assumption is allowed then so is a martial always full attacking.

TarkXT wrote:

A pit fiend, from behind its persistent image, invisibility, +27 disguise, +28 stealth, and several walls of fire can cut off individuals and suck out their soul with at will trap the soul's.

This is not some specialized pit fiend it's a stock run of the mill boring as written in the book.

And I've posted a fighter that only fails it's save vs anything the pit fiend throws at him on a 1 including disbelieving the persistent image, sees through it's invisibility, has a high enough perception to notice the sneaking or disguised pit fiend, can fly over the walls. Maybe if I'm stupid enough to interact with items while traipsing through hell I deserve to have my soul trapped.

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He needs holy or Good on his bow or arrows to overcome regen.

Other then that, he needs a +5 bow. Satisfies good and silver reqs.

Dimensional Locking is totally a thing on weapons. No teleport SLA for the Pit Fiend.

Winged boots are cheap and will keep him in range. Fighter probably had them at level 12.

Accuracy/Distance/Far Shot are totally doable and let the Fighter take him down from 500 yards.

A 42 AC isn't going to even slow a devoted archer down. With a +5 Bow, 30 dex, Weapon training/GWF, the fighter's TH STARTS at +41.

10d6 damage isn't going to get through the fighter's hit points in any amount of time, and that's if he was totally, utterly stupid and didn't buy a potion of fire resist or prot fire.

If that Pit Fiend is anywhere in range of a Manyshotting Fighter and thinks it can eat a full attack from an archer fighter, it's going to die.

==Aelryinth


Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Is a Fighter as powerful as a Pit Fiend?
A level 20 fighter with proper WBL, yes.

I don't believe you* can make a fighter that can win against a pit fiend. With enough optimization the pit fiend may not be able to just stand there and trade full attacks, but it shouldn't be able to lose.

*general you

What is it about the pit fiend that just says it shouldn't be able to lose?

Well with regeneration you can't kill it without an aligned good weapon. So there goes some of your WBL to handle that. It can fling fire-balls at you all day from 1120ft away and flies at 60ft per round. So need to be at-least that fast to even catch it and be able to do that all day. An archer will have to get through the range increment penalties and it's 42 AC (unholy aura is an at-will power). So you will need energy resistance, and an Ion stone to prevent mind affecting abilities (or else it can just fly around you spraying save or loses). Even then you'll need a decently high save to avoid trap the soul.

It can also just teleport away whenever it get low on health, rest up for a few minutes and come back at you. So you will need to be able to kill it in either one strike or one full attack(and somehow be able to get a full attack off).

It can also create enless hords of undead and summon 1 CR 19 or lower devil to also join the fight. Let's just say a Puragaus, who can cut through fire imunity and widdle the fighter away with it's 80ft fly speed.

If you can counter all that somehow with money and the fighter, I'll be impressed.

Wouldn't a properly geared fighter have a +5 weapon or simply a +1 Holy weapon relatively easy by 20th level with his nearly 900,000 gold. Not much losing out on 18-50k of your overall wealth which makes it's regeneration pretty moot.

Unholy aura only affects good creatures. Does nothing for it vs anyone neutral or...

Your fly speed does not last forever and is not fast enough. So you would lose. Even if it was fast enough, you have no way to counter greater teleport.

Assuming the Pit fiend is in close range is a mistake.

Some people have also pointed out more social routes the pit fiend could take.

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Aelryinth wrote:

10d6 damage isn't going to get through the fighter's hit points in any amount of time, and that's if he was totally, utterly stupid and didn't buy a potion of fire resist or prot fire.

If that Pit Fiend is anywhere in range of a Manyshotting Fighter and thinks it can eat a full attack from an archer fighter, it's going to die.

So unless the Pit Fiend is dumber than the fighter (Int 26, so probably not), it's going to have some scrolls of Wind Wall or Fickle Winds, right?


Aelryinth wrote:

He needs holy or Good on his bow or arrows to overcome regen.

Other then that, he needs a +5 bow. Satisfies good and silver reqs.

Dimensional Locking is totally a thing on weapons. No teleport SLA for the Pit Fiend.

Winged boots are cheap and will keep him in range. Fighter probably had them at level 12.

Accuracy/Distance/Far Shot are totally doable and let the Fighter take him down from 500 yards.

A 42 AC isn't going to even slow a devoted archer down. With a +5 Bow, 30 dex, Weapon training/GWF, the fighter's TH STARTS at +41.

10d6 damage isn't going to get through the fighter's hit points in any amount of time, and that's if he was totally, utterly stupid and didn't buy a potion of fire resist or prot fire.

If that Pit Fiend is anywhere in range of a Manyshotting Fighter and thinks it can eat a full attack from an archer fighter, it's going to die.

==Aelryinth

I doesn't matter that it takes a long time. Once the pit fiend is at range the fighter can't win.

Even if you did start near the pit-fiend chances are your deminsion lock from an item won't get through that SR, and that is assuming you win iniative. I'm still not sure how you managed to get close to the pit fiend at all though.

EDIT: Actually the dimensional lock is CL 7 so it can't actually lock a pit fiend. The weapon property phase locking.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

10d6 damage isn't going to get through the fighter's hit points in any amount of time, and that's if he was totally, utterly stupid and didn't buy a potion of fire resist or prot fire.

If that Pit Fiend is anywhere in range of a Manyshotting Fighter and thinks it can eat a full attack from an archer fighter, it's going to die.

So unless the Pit Fiend is dumber than the fighter (Int 26, so probably not), it's going to have some scrolls of Wind Wall or Fickle Winds, right?

Oh we haven't even touched on gear or their wish SLA.

I'm assuming the pit fiend has to kill one level 20 fighter per day or something.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Your fly speed does not last forever and is not fast enough. So you would lose. Even if it was fast enough, you have no way to counter greater teleport.

Assuming the Pit fiend is in close range is a mistake.

Some people have also pointed out more social routes the pit fiend could take.

You mean the wings of flying that give a 60 foot fly speed and last forever wouldn't allow me to keep up on top of the potion of fire resistance or a ring of evasion? Boots of speed to grant haste and you're even faster than the pit fiend.

Wish SLA? Doesn't exist.

Still not getting how the fighter loses, but you keep on thinking fighters are terrible and preach more on caster deities. Or giving undue credit where there isn't.


Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Your fly speed does not last forever and is not fast enough. So you would lose. Even if it was fast enough, you have no way to counter greater teleport.

Assuming the Pit fiend is in close range is a mistake.

Some people have also pointed out more social routes the pit fiend could take.

You mean the wings of flying that give a 60 foot fly speed and last forever wouldn't allow me to keep up on top of the potion of fire resistance or a ring of evasion? Boots of speed to grant haste and you're even faster than the pit fiend.

Still not getting how the fighter loses, but you keep on thinking fighters are terrible and preach more on caster deities.

Wait, how is a fighter only failing his saves on a 1 without a +5 cloak of resistance?

6+10 from Wisdom (I'm assuming a 30) only gets you to +16. I'm sure I'm forgetting some modifiers here. Iron Will gives a +2. You're still failing a DC 26 save 35% of the time.

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the pit fiend can stay at range all it likes. All the fighter has to do is get out of line of sight, and the pit fiend can't do squat. You're assuming an open field with unlimited range.

Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 7th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

A phase locking weapon interferes with dimensional travel. A creature damaged by a phase locking weapon is affected as though by the dimensional anchor spell for 1 round.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, dimensional anchor; Cost +2 bonus

===There is no saving throw or SR for Phase locking. He's locked if he gets hit.

The flight for winged boots can be broken up into multiple slots. He doesn't have to catch the Pit fiend. He has to get into bow range. His bow range is farther then the Pit Fiend can cast a fireball.

If the Pit Fiend gets scrolls of Fickle Winds, the fighter gets Spell Storing arrows...or just waits out the spell in an area that forces the pit fiend into melee range, which could also end really badly for it.

There have been a LOT of threads about DPS and Fighter Archers rank near the top in all of them. Damage infliction is not the problem. Playing the pit fiend with custom gear and playing the fighter like an idiot is.

==Aelryinth


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Your fly speed does not last forever and is not fast enough. So you would lose. Even if it was fast enough, you have no way to counter greater teleport.

Assuming the Pit fiend is in close range is a mistake.

Some people have also pointed out more social routes the pit fiend could take.

You mean the wings of flying that give a 60 foot fly speed and last forever wouldn't allow me to keep up on top of the potion of fire resistance or a ring of evasion? Boots of speed to grant haste and you're even faster than the pit fiend.

Still not getting how the fighter loses, but you keep on thinking fighters are terrible and preach more on caster deities.

Wait, how is a fighter only failing his saves on a 1 without a +5 cloak of resistance?

6+10 from Wisdom (I'm assuming a 30) only gets you to +16. I'm sure I'm forgetting some modifiers here. Iron Will gives a +2. You're still failing a DC 26 save 35% of the time.

It's in my post history. Look for Brutus. He has 5 Ioun stones that give a +5 resistance bonus instead of the cloak. His wisdom was a 14. I made the build as a point that fighters don't have to use any of their feats from levels to be capable characters to post huge numbers in damage.

The build would actually get a higher bonus to hit, damage, saves from the bane evil outsider while fighting a pit fiend.


Flawed wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Flawed wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Your fly speed does not last forever and is not fast enough. So you would lose. Even if it was fast enough, you have no way to counter greater teleport.

Assuming the Pit fiend is in close range is a mistake.

Some people have also pointed out more social routes the pit fiend could take.

You mean the wings of flying that give a 60 foot fly speed and last forever wouldn't allow me to keep up on top of the potion of fire resistance or a ring of evasion? Boots of speed to grant haste and you're even faster than the pit fiend.

Still not getting how the fighter loses, but you keep on thinking fighters are terrible and preach more on caster deities.

Wait, how is a fighter only failing his saves on a 1 without a +5 cloak of resistance?

6+10 from Wisdom (I'm assuming a 30) only gets you to +16. I'm sure I'm forgetting some modifiers here. Iron Will gives a +2. You're still failing a DC 26 save 35% of the time.

It's in my post history. Look for Brutus. He has 5 Ioun stones that give a +5 resistance bonus instead of the cloak. His wisdom was a 14. I made the build as a point that fighters don't have to use any of their feats from levels to be capable characters to post huge numbers in damage.

Pretty sure 5 separate ions stones don't stack unless they say they do.

Even then, you can't out run his teleport, all you can do in that situation is make the Fiend take longer in killing you.


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Flawed wrote:
You mean the wings of flying that give a 60 foot fly speed and last forever wouldn't allow me to keep up on top of the potion of fire resistance or a ring of evasion? Boots of speed to grant haste and you're even faster than the pit fiend.

Wings of Flying have a CL of 10. The Pit Fiend has at will Greater Dispel Magic with a CL of 18. It dispels your ability to fly on a 3, good luck with that.

Quote:
Wish SLA? Doesn't exist.

I rather think it does.

Quote:

At will—blasphemy (DC 25), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), greater scrying (DC 25), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, scorching ray, trap the soul (DC 26), unholy aura (DC 26), wall of fire

3/day—quickened fireball (DC 21)

1/day—meteor swarm, summon (level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower devil, 100%)

1/year—wish

It doesn't get to use it often but it does have it.


Aelryinth wrote:

the pit fiend can stay at range all it likes. All the fighter has to do is get out of line of sight, and the pit fiend can't do squat. You're assuming an open field with unlimited range.

Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 7th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

A phase locking weapon interferes with dimensional travel. A creature damaged by a phase locking weapon is affected as though by the dimensional anchor spell for 1 round.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, dimensional anchor; Cost +2 bonus

===There is no saving throw or SR for Phase locking. He's locked if he gets hit.

The flight for winged boots can be broken up into multiple slots. He doesn't have to catch the Pit fiend. He has to get into bow range. His bow range is farther then the Pit Fiend can cast a fireball.

If the Pit Fiend gets scrolls of Fickle Winds, the fighter gets Spell Storing arrows...or just waits out the spell in an area that forces the pit fiend into melee range, which could also end really badly for it.

There have been a LOT of threads about DPS and Fighter Archers rank near the top in all of them. Damage infliction is not the problem. Playing the pit fiend with custom gear and playing the fighter like an idiot is.

==Aelryinth

I see no reason for the weapon not to have to roll the SR check.

The pit fiend can also wait out the wing boots via teleport, which are too slow to keep up with the Pit fiend anyways. Anytime you actual get close to hurting him he can teleport away and regen up in a few minutes and then come back.

He doesn't even need fickle winds because you take a -8 to -16 range increment penalty to all attacks.


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can we please step away from theoretical 1v1 fighter-pitfiend fight?


Marroar Gellentara wrote:

Pretty sure 5 separate ions stones don't stack unless they say they do.

Even then, you can't out run his teleport, all you can do in that situation is make the Fiend take longer in killing you.

Look them up some time. They do say they stack.

Can't teleport when using a phase locking weapon. This has already been discussed.

andreww wrote:

Wings of Flying have a CL of 10. The Pit Fiend has at will Greater Dispel Magic with a CL of 18. It dispels your ability to fly on a 3, good luck with that.

And to do so it'll bring itself into the range of you bow should you have far shot or a distance weapon. The argument was that the pit fiend can stay 1120 feet away which it can't if it wants to use greater dispel. The greater dispel also has to target the wings specifically which means one action not spent attacking you that you can full attack it with your bow.

Yes, I noticed the once per year wish after the fact and didn't care to change it. Now you have to play the odds of it actually having it available.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

I see no reason for the weapon not to have to roll the SR check.

The pit fiend can also wait out the wing boots via teleport, which are too slow to keep up with the Pit fiend anyways. Anytime you actual get close to hurting him he can teleport away and regen up in a few minutes and then come back.

He doesn't even need fickle winds because you take a -8 to -16 range increment penalty to all attacks.

At the maximum range of fireballs vs the archer with far shot and a distance bow they're taking a -5.

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