Just tossing out my 2 cents on the whole debate.
Excellent points being made in that post.
I think it summarizes the issues nicely.
As an aside - I have played a number of wizards, many to high level. I have been both the most valuable and least useful character at times. When my wizard was in the right spot at the right times with my spells, there was nothing better. But when I am facing something that I just didn't anticipate I was left looking at all these spells and nothing to do.
I certainly think casters are a very potent force. I would never argue they are not. I just think that people underestimate martials inside of these strange theoretical constructs we make, when in game things usually work out nicely.
My apologies, but if the way to make my martial character perform awesome feats equitable to what casters can do at the same level is "use spells", then I am not satisfied with the way this character was designed.
I happen to agree. And for the record, I love playing martial types. I like imagining the bad guys going flying when my character swings his stick-o-doom. The image of my metal clad warrior stomping into a bar, shuddering the building his his raw, overt power is so much more satisfying than the mage's subdued hints of supreme power that darken the air around the wizard.
When my character stands on top of a pile of foes, he can say "I did this. One my own. By the strength of my arm and the skill of my mind." The wizard and cleric both have taller piles of fallen foes, but they had to rely on power outside them selves.
The rogue (and bard) is back in the castle he won in a card game, sitting on top of a pile of gold and jewels surrounded by gorgeous consorts, and is amused at argument.
By the strength of my arm and the skill of my mind." The wizard and cleric both have taller piles of fallen foes, but they had to rely on power outside them selves.
And then the sorcerer looked down upon them from his mountain of dead enemies and swooning men and women and goes. "That's cute."
And then the sorcerer looked down upon them from his mountain of dead enemies and swooning men and women and goes. "That's cute."By the strength of my arm and the skill of my mind." The wizard and cleric both have taller piles of fallen foes, but they had to rely on power outside them selves.
And the druid is cuddled up with his animal companion, softly stroking it's fur as they stare deeply into each others eyes... Oh, on a pile of dead bodies.
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And the druid is cuddled up with his animal companion, softly stroking it's fur as they stare deeply into each others eyes... Oh, on a pile of dead bodies.And then the sorcerer looked down upon them from his mountain of dead enemies and swooning men and women and goes. "That's cute."By the strength of my arm and the skill of my mind." The wizard and cleric both have taller piles of fallen foes, but they had to rely on power outside them selves.
Is that you, fanfiction.net?
End of the day a high lvl magic user will always out gun a high lvl warrior one on one
But when faced with enough low lvl opponents they can be over run and beaten unless he bugs out which is not always an option
Some people are into masochism.
I am 100% sure this is it.
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Spellcasters have been known to outdo martials at martial'dom. However, I've never seen martials be able to outdo spellcasters at spellcasting.
The argument that I COULD have a caster do all these things does not mean you will. Anymore than me saying that I COULD have a fighter with an 18 CHA mean I will.That is my argument. You can't do everything at once..
That was not the argument being made. The point was that casters can do certain things that martials can't if they choose to do them.
As an example I have a caster in my game with his own demiplane. He can teleport, fly(on his own), and do many of the other things that came up in this thread.
That was not the argument being put forth, as I understood it.
My response to that is: If it can go on a scroll the martial could do it.
The question I understood being put forth was: Can martials have the same narrative impact that a caster can?
In my opinion the answer is yes, Martials are more likely to be able to do certain things (especially at lower to mid levels) that can have an equal impact on the game.
The response I have seen is: Casters can do all that stuff too, if they wanted to.
My response to that is: Then why can't I say a martial could have a scroll and do all the things a caster could do too?
I think the bottom two arguments are both silly.
Even though it was not stated the ability to do it reliably is assumed to be there. If you need a scroll to be able to do something, you can't really do it as well so the caster is still ahead. If you need a scroll, and you need UMD then you are even farther behind because you need money , and a UMD check, and scrolls are priced by caster level. So you might have the right scroll, but it might not be strong enough to do what you need. Scroll also have a low save DC's, and that makes them less reliable.
A wizard can stab things, but he can't do it as reliably as fighter so saying a wizard can do that and can stand in well enough as a martial character is a poor argument. The same thing applies to someone relying on scrolls.
End of the day a high lvl magic user will always out gun a high lvl warrior one on one
But when faced with enough low lvl opponents they can be over run and beaten unless he bugs out which is not always an option
Why is this? Antilife shell and AoE spells can handle low level mooks. A fight is used as a single boss fight simply because they are better at taking on multiple opponents. That is why you don't see melee only monsters as BBEG's/bosses, but you do see monsters melee plus magic, or just magic.
Spellcasters have been known to outdo martials at martial'dom. However, I've never seen martials be able to outdo spellcasters at spellcasting.
I fixed your link. =P
What planes are there in the campaign setting with that time trait though? Looks to me like the GM would have to homebrew one before you could abuse it.
Probably the one Nex is trapped in. I'd so let them find out how to get in. Of course, getting out might present a problem if a Mythic transmuter can't do it. Or maybe they come out and a thousand years have passed.
==Aelryinth
Also the sheer amount of spells that are available now means that there is magic for all occasions there is very little a high lvl magic user can't do
So maybe the answer is to have fewer spells
Unless of course your GM says that no such plane is known to exist--which appears to be the default assumption in Golarion. None of the planes established in Golarion canon seem to share that trait (at least, none that I can find).
Remember, the hardback book rules are for generic settings, not for Golarion in particular. So one can't assume that it exists in the setting just because it's in the rulebook. A given element could easily exist in your homebrew setting, but not in Golarion, or vice versa.
Unless of course your GM says that no such plane is known to exist--which appears to be the default assumption in Golarion. None of the planes established in Golarion canon seem to share that trait (at least, none that I can find).
Remember, the hardback book rules are for generic settings, not for Golarion in particular. So one can't assume that it exists in the setting just because it's in the rulebook. A given element could easily exist in your homebrew setting, but not in Golarion, or vice versa.
i.e. RAW does not necessarily mean REAL
I've used Blood money to literally craft a plane from my very flesh. However this was only by the GM's leave. They could have easily said that ti did not work the way I did it.
Also, it is impossible to create a plane with that particular time trait in the RAW with anything better than half or double time.
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Basically, why use a class that relies on weapons when you could use a class that relies on something that doesn't cost anything, comes readily each morning, and can even take you places (the plane of water, hell, heaven, bacon world, etc.) that no other class ever could?
TL;DR.
Basically, because it's the character I want to play.
Yes, magic is powerful, and even necessary, in a lot of ways. Yes, high-level casters will be able to do more than pure martials most of the time. Yes, casters can even (if "built" to do so*) outperform pure martials in combat after a certain point (with some preparation).
However, depending on the specific level range of the campaign, the variety of encounters, and the composition of the party itself, the "caster/martial disparity" may not be as great as some make it out to be. In many cases, it's more efficient for the casters to buff the martials, and then thin out the minions with some AoE spells, so the martials can concentrate on the BBEG. For many groups, even "pure" martial classes (without casting) can be quite productive and relevant members of the party until about 9th-12th level (which is when most groups end that campaign and start a new one, based on sales demographics).
The biggest advice to those frustrated with martials being one-trick ponies: Stop making them one-trick ponies (i.e., dumping Int and Cha to 7 and then complaining that they have no skill ranks and suck in social situations); even the "weak" (for the detractors, having less than 18-20 Str) fighter that focuses on tripping with a reach weapon (hooked lance is a good choice) and starts at 1st level with 13 Int, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip (picking up Power Attack and Greater Trip by 4th level) can be effective in damage (two-handed, x4 crit weapon), maneuvers (tripping is powerful against most non-flying opponents at low- to mid-levels), and even has a decent amount of skills (3 ranks per level, 4 ranks if human or using the favored class benefit, 5 ranks if human and using the favored class benefit; with Fast Learner as the human bonus feat at 1st level, the human gets both +1 hp and +1 skill rank per level). Use some of the feats to take some of the Point Blank Shot tree (and probably Quick Draw) so you can be effective in ranged combat, as well. Alternately, the mobile fighter archetype, combined with selections from the Improved Shield Bash, Point Blank Shot, and Two-Weapon Fighting feat trees (plus Bashing Finish and Quick Draw, with an impact 18-20 crit range weapon, either keen or with Improved Critical, and a bashing quickdraw light shield) can be effective in most combat situations (range, mobile or stationary melee, tanking, etc.) even into the higher levels.
As effective (without help from friendly casters or magic items) in all situations as a caster? No, but if that's your standard, you won't be happy with martials in the game system, anyway.
*- COD-zilla is alive and well (cleric, oracle, druid in PF), even after being toned down a bit from 3.x; even sorcerers, witches, and wizards can end up with +17 BAB and either 16 or 17 levels of spell progression with certain multi-class/prestige class options.
Also, it is impossible to create a plane with that particular time trait in the RAW with anything better than half or double time.
Where do the rules say you must choose traits from an existing plane?
edit:
Time: By default, time passes at the normal rate in your demiplane. By selecting this feature, you may make your plane have the erratic time, flowing time (half or double normal time), or timeless trait (see Time, GameMastery Guide 185).
For those looking for ways to tone down casters a bit, Words of Power makes it harder for casters by limiting the sheer breadth of options they currently have (and removing or reducing the power of certain spell effects). In some respects, they get a boost (mainly direct damage, combined with status effects) and it's easier to adjust targeting (melee touch, ranged touch, AoE, etc.), but they aren't quite the powerhouses they are normally.
Time: By default, time passes at the normal rate in your demiplane. By selecting this feature, you may make your plane have the erratic time, flowing time (half or double normal time), or timeless trait (see Time, GameMastery Guide 185).I think time still passes in the real world while you are there, but it isn't clear. Time catches up with you when you leave. I would have talked about creating a permanent greater demiplane if not for that. It is pricy but doable for a group of 4 at 9th level.
** spoiler omitted **
I understand that. I posted it because RD said the you could not create a timeless plane. :)
I was referring to RAW game mechanics, such as the create demiplane spells, Wraithstrike, not GM campaign-making fiat.
I was referring to RAW game mechanics, such as the create demiplane spells, Wraithstrike, not GM campaign-making fiat.
That was from the demiplane line of spells so it is RAW.
What is? Greater Create Demiplane makes it absolutely clear that you can only halve time or double it when choosing the flowing time trait. You can't have the, "I step out of battle for a round, rest for a week, and step back into battle the next round" trick.
The timeless trait doesn't let you pull that trick off either since a day on the material is still a day on the demiplane. The only thing the timeless trait effects are the duration of certain effects.
What is? Greater Create Demiplane makes it absolutely clear that you can only halve time or double it with that trait. You can't have the, "I step out of battle for a round, rest for a week, and step back into battle the next round" trick.
I just quoted where it said "timeless". Did you not see it, and that was from the book. Unless there has been errata I don't know about.
Here it is again:
--> By selecting this feature, you may make your plane have the erratic time, flowing time (half or double normal time), or timeless trait (see Time, GameMastery Guide 185)<--All of this is me not adding any words. That is directly from the greater demiplane spell.
And I'm trying to explain to you that, that does NOT help the above abusive trick to function.
Some might think that the second sentence means you can heal faster on a plane with the timeless trait, but that's not true because the effects of time on such a plane are DIMINISHED (see first sentence), not ENHANCED. You could heal slower, but not faster. Meanwhile, if a week passes in your timeless demiplane, a week passes on the Material Plane as well. In short, it cannot be used for miraculous in combat healing and preparation. At least not as described by Malignant Manor above.
What is? Greater Create Demiplane makes it absolutely clear that you can only halve time or double it when choosing the flowing time trait. You can't have the, "I step out of battle for a round, rest for a week, and step back into battle the next round" trick.
The timeless trait doesn't let you pull that trick off either since a day on the material is still a day on the demiplane. The only thing the timeless trait effects are the duration of certain effects.
Noted. I just read it again.
This is strange since I am normally the one telling people "you can't do that".I was reading those as examples, but it seems they are all inclusive, and nothing actually says time does not pass.
Yeah. The total role reversal today was not lost on me.
The sense I get from this thread, and others like it, is that this game sucks, no class works properly, and everything and every class is useless.
So tell me again why you play?
The sense I get from this thread, and others like it, is that this game sucks, no class works properly, and everything and every class is useless.
So tell me again why you play?
It is not that bad at the table. What you are reading is differences in opinion of how to play the game.
So tell me again why you play?I don't play this game because it's good, I play it because it's popular.
Yeah, when it comes to setting up/finding any kind of gaming, how popular the system is will be a big factor. It's a lot easier to find a game of/find players for Pathfinder than it is for other less known gaming systems.
Yeah, when it comes to setting up/finding any kind of gaming, how popular the system is will be a big factor. It's a lot easier to find a game of/find players for Pathfinder than it is for other less known gaming systems.So tell me again why you play?I don't play this game because it's good, I play it because it's popular.That's a big deal.
Certain utilities exist the better facilitate finding and playing with people online, but meeting strangers across the globe for a game of TTRPG hasn't become a large part of the hobby just yet.
So you're stuck with D&D, Pathfinder, and maybe the group of weirdos that still play WOD games.
Unless you're in Washington state. Then all these bastards play Shadowrun and it'll take you a long ass time to find a group for anything else.
True story... I live in Everett and it sucks finding a PF group -.-
So tell me again why you play?I don't play this game because it's good, I play it because it's popular.
It's not the gaming system we need, but it's the gaming system we deserve.
Yeah, when it comes to setting up/finding any kind of gaming, how popular the system is will be a big factor. It's a lot easier to find a game of/find players for Pathfinder than it is for other less known gaming systems.So tell me again why you play?I don't play this game because it's good, I play it because it's popular.That's a big deal.
Certain utilities exist the better facilitate finding and playing with people online, but meeting strangers across the globe for a game of TTRPG hasn't become a large part of the hobby just yet.
So you're stuck with D&D, Pathfinder, and maybe the group of weirdos that still play WOD games.
Unless you're in Washington state. Then all these bastards play Shadowrun and it'll take you a long ass time to find a group for anything else.
Yeah, about the only recent opportunities I've had to play non-pathfinder RPGs was by having a tabletop wargaming group (40k and Warmachine) who were willing to try out the RPG rulesets for those franchises.
So you're stuck with D&D, Pathfinder, and maybe the group of weirdos that still play WOD games.Unless you're in Washington state. Then all these bastards play Shadowrun and it'll take you a long ass time to find a group for anything else.
I'm really puzzled how hard it seems to be elsewhere to get gaming groups. When counting the last couple of years I had groups for PF, shadowrun, L5R, the WH40k games from FFG, Midgard (german system), 7th sea and would have had the opportunity to play WOD or others but declined.
When looking at my whole gaming life I guess I played at least 50 different RPGs. As I had no group for some time I just joined my old pals (who were playing the traditional way around the table) via Skype. One place around the table. I could even see the battle-map and the other players, just not the GM, because he was sitting behind the camera./thread derail
The sad truth is that nearly every gaming system has a martial-magic disparity because nearly all of them assume that martials have to follow physics while the magic users don't.
If you take a system like D20 modern or Star Wars and kick out the Force....it's a great display of what a RP game can be without magic.
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The sad truth is that nearly every gaming system has a martial-magic disparity because nearly all of them assume that martials have to follow physics while the magic users don't.Systems without character classes frequently don't have this disparity.
They actually do tend to have such a disparity between magic-users and non magic-users if magic is a thing. There are some systems that avoid that, but they're actually pretty rare. It's pretty much all for the same reason, too: Non-magical people need to obey the laws of physics (at least vaguely) while magic users don't. I can list of a bunch if people don't believe me...
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The non-class examples that immediately come to my mind - GURPS, Hero, Mutants & Masterminds, Mayfair's old DC Heroes RPG - don't seem to have that disparity.
Superhero systems tend to be among the only systems that don't have this disparity, since by their nature everyone is supposed to violate realism, and to a similar extent. GURPS is the only system you list that doesn't fall under 'superhero system'...and given how GURPS is set up, calling it a non-superhero game is a bit misleading.
Some systems without Classes that still have this disparity: Unisystem, All White Wolf games (though those debatably have Classes of a sort), The Dresden Files RPG, The Call of Cthulhu RPG, Shadowrun, Unknown Armies, Dark Heresy, etc.
Now some of those have mechanics that punish magic use in some fashion (Sanity loss or the equivalent is popular), but that doesn't make it less powerful or remove the disparity per se, just institute an alternative balancing mechanism.