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So I was driving on my way home from work today, and I was thinking about a campaign I want to run and I began to wonder why arcane magic wasn't completely ubiquitous in Golarion yet. What I mean by that is that arcane magic has been studied in the world for something like 10,000 years, so why isn't a magic a bigger force in everybody’s life? I can understand why divine casters are rare, after all you have to appease a god, but arcane magic merely requires training and a desire to learn. Furthermore, it seems like even low-level arcane magic would solve a lot of civic problems and high level magic would solve the rest.
Ray of Frost provides means for both food preservation (refrigeration) and climate control (air conditioning). Continual flame provides a cheap means of keeping an area lit at all times. Access to a magical item that casts fabricate at will (costs around 90,000 gp) and a competent craftsman will make a factory that would make modern production lines weep with envy. A little work with create demiplain and permanent gates will create transport hubs will make goods and people a breeze to transport. Disintegrate makes garbage and sewage concerns non-existent. Unseen servant could handle a majority of labor jobs that don't require a large amount of strength (such as harvesting and plowing fields); golems and elementals can solve the rest.
Long story short, arcane magic’s ability to flip physics the bird and solve so many problems means that, by all rights, Golarion should make the modern world look like a bunch of ants scratching in the dirt. Is there an in-game reason why it seems to be permanently stuck in the Renaissance? I mean, I understand that it’s a fantasy game and that’s what we want to play; but I was wondering if there was something in the lore that explains it.
Because people are lazy, and not everybody gets inborn magic?
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Magic isn't everywhere because most players want a medieval world. You can try to justify it some way in-game, but it is really an out-of-game situation.
There really is no in-game reason for it. Most fantasy worlds are just stagnant.
The only real explanation I can see that would work in-game is that some over-deity (who views even the strongest of the normal gods as nothing more than little playthings) wants things to stay the way they are. How else can not only the material plane stay the same, but every other plane in existence?
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Same reason that reading wasn't ubiquitous in medieval Europe.
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Why do people still live in mud huts on Earth with the abundance of technology? Why are there tribes in the Amazon that have never even had any sort of contact with the rest of the world?
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Hell, why don't Americans speak several languages? We have easy access and we still don't know these things. Imagine how difficult it must be to find magical training and knowledge in the world that isn't snatched up my powerful wizards, academies, liches, etc.
Magic isn't everywhere because most players want a medieval world. You can try to justify it some way in-game, but it is really an out-of-game situation.
There really is no in-game reason for it. Most fantasy worlds are just stagnant.
The only real explanation I can see that would work in-game is that some over-deity (who views even the strongest of the normal gods as nothing more than little playthings) wants things to stay the way they are. How else can not only the material plane stay the same, but every other plane in existence?
Sounds like an Epic-level Big Bad for a campaign.
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Why isn't everyone trained in the intricacies of electronic repair, auto repair, and computer programming in real life?
The problem here is many fold. Let's just look at humans (the race most like us, and with the easiest mechanics for this argument). Now, let us remember the simple fact that most people are of an NPC class (mostly commoner) and that a lot of NPCs have stats between 10 (average) and 14 (fairly skilled). And that is being optimistic. A lot of people might have penalties. So they simply might not be suited for arcane magic.
Another problem is the time setting. While Golarian is note entirely the classic medieval setting (certain elements point more towards a renaissance era), but the simple fact of the matter is that this is clearly a preindustrial age. I highly doubt there are even printing presses (I may be wrong on that). So magical texts might be prohibitively expensive for the common man. And learning it from another wizard may have a huge amount of restrictions (the mage's guild probably doesn't like people training dozens of people in the basic, staple magics that is their bread and butter). And even if the techniques were there to learn, many people do not have the leisure time to study magic because of the antiquated agricultural techniques requires so much raw labor.
Also, there is the fact that many of the advancements of that era might be stifled by magic users themselves (who would bother creating vaccinations when clerics can just cure people instantly?). Yet, looking at how it works in the book, magic is in fact horribly inefficient compared to basic technology, since it relies so heavily on single talented individuals. I mean, a factory worker doesn't have spells per day. He does need decades of training just to work a textile mill. While the world is tied so heavily to these very particular artisans in their ivory towers, rather than something that can be easily brought to the working man, it will in fact be restricted.
Overall, the reason why the game seems stuck in the renaissance is because it is under the same influences seen in the renaissance. And that didn't exactly pass by quickly, now did it? And that doesn't even include the complications brought on by elves that have lived for centuries who might try to bring more conservative trends, or demons coming in and wiping out centers of art and learning.
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It's true that some arcane magic (wizardry) can be accomplished with "just" training and a desire to learn. And a decent amount of inborn talent (intelligence). The rest of arcane magic is either inborn (sorcerors), gained through pacts with strange entities (summoner, witch), or from handwavium (bards, I love the class, but the justification for their magic is odd).
It takes years to learn even basic magic. Years. Conversely, a basic trade that will put food in your mouth and a roof over your head can be learned in weeks. Even a journeyman apprentice will be on his way to founding his own business before the wizardling is let loose from his training.
Now lets add in catastrophe, divine mandates, and danger. Most fantasy worlds have at least one major and often a few minor catastrophes that halt, destroy, undo, or even rewind the progress of a region. Golarion has Earthfall, which shattered the Azlant empire, which was likely exactly the sort of society you are referring to. They terraformed the moon with a magic laser for crying out loud. A numerian artifact detonation set the shoanti tribesmen on an anti-technology crusade for generations. A plague in Osirion devastated the population. Etc.
Divine entities might mandate certain limits. Nethys, in his all knowing puissance, might be actually capable of seeing the results of over-use of magic and puts a limit on it. Maybe Abadar wants civilization to advance at a controllable rate, and not repeat the Azlant boom-collapse.
And then simple danger. When you have to invest hundreds of thousands of gold into your army to keep enemy nations, dragons, demons, aboleth, more demons, pathfinders, and so on from causing chaos and destruction in your lands, you likely don't have much left for advancing society to a new plateau of magical industrialization.
Just my thoughts, typed fast and loose. YYMV.
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Hell, why don't Americans speak several languages? We have easy access and we still don't know these things. Imagine how difficult it must be to find magical training and knowledge in the world that isn't snatched up my powerful wizards, academies, liches, etc.
There are several major centers of learning for magic already in the lore; it seems like every major city has a place you can learn magic. And given how useful battlefield magic is you would think most nations would invest heavily to train as many as they could.
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Why isn't everyone trained in the intricacies of electronic repair, auto repair, and computer programming in real life?
But most people do know how to use a VCR, drive a car, and surf the web, right? I'll spot you that not everybody would be wizards; but I would expect magical items to be plentiful and cheaper.
The problem here is many fold. Let's just look at humans (the race most like us, and with the easiest mechanics for this argument). Now, let us remember the simple fact that most people are of an NPC class (mostly commoner) and that a lot of NPCs have stats between 10 (average) and 14 (fairly skilled). And that is being optimistic. A lot of people might have penalties. So they simply might not be suited for arcane magic.
I would think that having a 12 ability score is not unreasonable, which is enough to perform 2nd level magic. You can do a LOT with 2nd level spells that are outside of the "PEW PEW PEW" realm.
Another problem is the time setting. While Golarian is note entirely the classic medieval setting (certain elements point more towards a renaissance era), but the simple fact of the matter is that this is clearly a preindustrial age. I highly doubt there are even printing presses (I may be wrong on that).
I'm pretty sure there are rules for them in Ultimate Campaign (or at the very least there is a print shop).
So magical texts might be prohibitively expensive for the common man. And learning it from another wizard may have a huge amount of restrictions (the mage's guild probably doesn't like people training dozens of people in the basic, staple magics that is their bread and butter). And even if the techniques were there to learn, many people do not have the leisure time to study magic because of the antiquated agricultural techniques requires so much raw labor.
Seems like something that the government might like to fund since it provides battlefield and civic magic. God bless socialized magic :).
Also, there is the fact that many of the advancements of that era might be stifled by magic users themselves (who would bother creating vaccinations when clerics can just cure people instantly?). Yet, looking at how it works in the book, magic is in fact horribly inefficient compared to basic technology, since it relies so heavily on single talented individuals. I mean, a factory worker doesn't have spells per day. He does need decades of training just to work a textile mill. While the world is tied so heavily to these very particular artisans in their ivory towers, rather than something that can be easily brought to the working man, it will in fact be restricted.
Overall, the reason why the game seems stuck...
That's exactly my point. It's human nature to go with the path of least resistance, and magic seems like easy mode so shouldn't it be far more prevalent?
Hell, why don't Americans speak several languages? We have easy access and we still don't know these things. Imagine how difficult it must be to find magical training and knowledge in the world that isn't snatched up my powerful wizards, academies, liches, etc.There are several major centers of learning for magic already in the lore; it seems like every major city has a place you can learn magic. And given how useful battlefield magic is you would think most nations would invest heavily to train as many as they could.
Exactly, its similar to say computers. And lords knows we didn't develop those at all. Certainly not to the point where anyone can just use to share their thoughts with others via some kind of virtual message board. So magic permeating daily life of Golarion is of course completely unrealistic.
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Divine entities might mandate certain limits. Nethys, in his all knowing puissance, might be actually capable of seeing the results of over-use of magic and puts a limit on it. Maybe Abadar wants civilization to advance at a controllable rate, and not repeat the Azlant boom-collapse.
That actually seems like a good explanation, or at least one I can work with.
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Why does everyone in the real world not have a PHD in Physics? Or Computer Science, for that matter? The second is both highly lucrative and lets you do some awesome stuff.
Because most people don't have the time, motivation, or skill set to learn that stuff. In order to learn (as opposed to be born with) arcane magic, you generally need someone to teach you (not always available) and requires extensive training to boot (the average 1st level Wizard is 22 years old...and the equivalent of having just gotten a college degree) and all that is particularly true in a society where the poor can ill afford for people of working age to take that time off, and may well not be able to afford tuition. And it still pretty much only works for the less than 1/2 the population with Int 12 or higher (and not very well until you get to at least Int 14-16).
In short, Wizards are hard (and expensive) to train, require certain native capabilities, and are thus generally quite rare. And, judging by the settlement rules, high level ones are even rarer...and you need to be quite high level to do a lot of what you are suggesting. Add in that a lot of high level Wizards (probably most of them) are primarily concerned with things other than building infrastructure and this sort of thing not being done makes a lot more sense.
Additionally, you must bear in mind that Golarion is not only post-apocalyptic, but post multiple apocalypses. Pre-Earthfall Azlant, Thassilon, and so on, might easily have had the sort of things you mention (in fact, it's implied rather heavily that they did), as might the Shory or the followers of Old Mage Jatembe...they just don't any more. Because, y'know, apocalypses.
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That's exactly my point. It's human nature to go with the path of least resistance, and magic seems like easy mode so shouldn't it be far more prevalent?
...easy mode? You suggested using someone as a refrigerator via ray of frost. How many months does it take to learn how to shoot cold from your fingers? And how long does it keep it cold afterwards? Minutes? You want someone to come into your store room just constantly blasting everything with freeze rays 24/7?
But all this would be easily handled by an AC unit and the like to turn the room into a freezer. As in a one time cost with slight maintenance and energy costs versus a full time wage of several workers. And just suggesting 'magic item' is a bit absurd with the wacky economy in this game (remember, most people only earn 1 silver, or .1 gold a day; that is less than 37 gold a year for what would likely amount to a $12,000 a year wage).
And again, this is the kind of progressive hindsight of 'why can't they just be better?' Sorry, but sometimes advancements just take an amount of resources that cannot be maintained, even in our relatively sane world, let alone ones with rampaging gods, demon invasions, and asteroid drops. I mean, did you know that freakin' toilets and sewers were around since about 2800 BC, and simply fell in and out of fashion time and time again? Even when it vastly improves sanitation and health?
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I think it is because most fantasy worlds have a certain way they want to look.
And they handwave away what the implications of magic as they present it in the rules would be on the world and societies.
Personally I think EVERY nation would be some kind of mageocracy or theocracy. How would you get around it?
...bribing wizards and clerics? Getting your own loyal casters could keep that in check. You could also hire those new fangled things called 'adventuerers' when some caster is threatening to take over your kingdom.
Or just sending a couple dozen guys against the level 1 clerics and wizards. Armies are rather effective, and there is a reason why there are usually not 200 figures on a table top battlefield, since it would result in TPK. It takes genius level prodigies (Nex, for example) to get around that.
And half the time, if there are such people, they get in to long, drawn out battles with other casters (Geb, for example), preventing them from fully drawing out their potential as conquerors and manipulators. I mean, by themselves, the competing religions (since there are dozens and dozens of gods, almost all of which are verifiably real) usually prevents a single theocracy.
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Exactly, its similar to say computers. And lords knows we didn't develop those at all. Certainly not to the point where anyone can just use to share their thoughts with others via some kind of virtual message board. So magic permeating daily life of Golarion is of course completely unrealistic.Hell, why don't Americans speak several languages? We have easy access and we still don't know these things. Imagine how difficult it must be to find magical training and knowledge in the world that isn't snatched up my powerful wizards, academies, liches, etc.There are several major centers of learning for magic already in the lore; it seems like every major city has a place you can learn magic. And given how useful battlefield magic is you would think most nations would invest heavily to train as many as they could.
Seriously! Everyone on modern Earth has a computer with full access to the Internet, why can't everyone have access to magic items that they are capable of using on Golarion? Oh, wait...
Then again, the knowledge of how to build computers exists so anyone should be able to just cobble one together to get the job done. I can't even imagine why the people of the Central African Republic aren't more in tune with the modern world, who cares if they have power-mad warlords constantly rampaging through their villages destroying everything and carting their children away. Hmmm...
Oh, how about the people of Afghanistan and Iran. You know those young kids that are on the verge of joining the technological age. If only they could get their elders to stop stoning them to death or dumping acid all over them.
But you made a good point too Anzyr.
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That's exactly my point. It's human nature to go with the path of least resistance, and magic seems like easy mode so shouldn't it be far more prevalent?...easy mode? You suggested using someone as a refrigerator via ray of frost. How many months does it take to learn how to shoot cold from your fingers? And how long does it keep it cold afterwards? Minutes? You want someone to come into your store room just constantly blasting everything with freeze rays 24/7?
But all this would be easily handled by an AC unit and the like to turn the room into a freezer. As in a one time cost with slight maintenance and energy costs versus a full time wage of several workers. And just suggesting 'magic item' is a bit absurd with the wacky economy in this game (remember, most people only earn 1 silver, or .1 gold a day).
I actually was thinking a magical item of some sort. It would be out of reach for lower class people, of course, but nobles could easily afford one. Economies of scale would dictate that the price would go down eventually; this glosses over the, frankly, broken economy of any D&D game but, hey, if your telling me Economics doesn't work in the lore then I'm going to tell you all about my "ladder into 2 poles" get rich quick scheme.
And again, this is the kind of progressive hindsight of 'why can't they just be better?' Sorry, but sometimes advancements just take an amount of resources that cannot be maintained, even in our relatively sane world, let alone ones with rampaging gods, demon invasions, and asteroid drops. I mean, did you know that freakin' toilets and sewers were around since about 2800 BC, and simply fell in and out of fashion time and time again? Even when it vastly improves sanitation and health?
I did actually. But here's the thing, in the time since the end of the Dark Ages (around 700 years, give or take) we've gone from feudal kingdoms to Mars and we had to play by the rules (i.e. physics) to do it. Absalom, a city that according to lore has never been conquered, has been around for 4000 years and has had 4 gods in it's corner. I'm simply asking is there is a lore reason why it and the rest of the world been largely in stasis the whole time.
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That's exactly my point. It's human nature to go with the path of least resistance, and magic seems like easy mode so shouldn't it be far more prevalent?...easy mode? You suggested using someone as a refrigerator via ray of frost. How many months does it take to learn how to shoot cold from your fingers? And how long does it keep it cold afterwards? Minutes? You want someone to come into your store room just constantly blasting everything with freeze rays 24/7?
But all this would be easily handled by an AC unit and the like to turn the room into a freezer. As in a one time cost with slight maintenance and energy costs versus a full time wage of several workers. And just suggesting 'magic item' is a bit absurd with the wacky economy in this game (remember, most people only earn 1 silver, or .1 gold a day).
I actually was thinking a magical item of some sort. It would be out of reach for lower class people, of course, but nobles could easily afford one. Economies of scale would dictate that the price would go down eventually; this glosses over the, frankly, broken economy of any D&D game but, hey, if your telling me Economics doesn't work in the lore then I'm going to tell you all about my "ladder into 2 poles" get rich quick scheme.
And again, this is the kind of progressive hindsight of 'why can't they just be better?' Sorry, but sometimes advancements just take an amount of resources that cannot be maintained, even in our relatively sane world, let alone ones with rampaging gods, demon invasions, and asteroid drops. I mean, did you know that freakin' toilets and sewers were around since about 2800 BC, and simply fell in and out of fashion time and time again? Even when it vastly improves sanitation and health?I did actually. But here's the thing, in the time since the end of the Dark Ages (around 700 years, give or take) we've gone from feudal kingdoms to Mars and we had to play by the rules (i.e. physics) to...
And prior to that, we had about 9,000 years where we had a shifting cycle of technological and cultural abilities that slowly got better over time as we found the right tricks and learned how to pass them on. But one slip up, and a lot of that might be lost (current books and electronic means of storing data are rather fragile compared to painting things on pots or carving them into rocks; I like the series Life After People for showing me that).
Setting up an industrial age is hard, and that is when you are playing with the simple and consistent nature of physics where copper wires stay as conductive copper wires and don't turn to near useless gold when you say "Klaatu... verata... n... Necktie" instead of "Klaatu barada nikto". Logistical problems remain logistical problems when people are still the weak link. Regular physics have a leg up over magic there, since it always plays by the same rules, making it easier to pick up with the bits and pieces by the common man instead of the wide mastery needed for magic.
I am sorry, but I seem to be just too unfamiliar with the setting to say how long it has been in this 'perpetual renaissance' you claim. From my perspective, it is simply at he 350 year mark in that 700 year time line you gave it. Do you want the setting to just to randomly jump another 350 years at once so you can finally have your magic ray guns and space ships? ....which admittedly are already lying in wait under Numeria in the current time period.
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That's exactly my point. It's human nature to go with the path of least resistance, and magic seems like easy mode so shouldn't it be far more prevalent?...easy mode? You suggested using someone as a refrigerator via ray of frost. How many months does it take to learn how to shoot cold from your fingers? And how long does it keep it cold afterwards? Minutes? You want someone to come into your store room just constantly blasting everything with freeze rays 24/7?
But all this would be easily handled by an AC unit and the like to turn the room into a freezer. As in a one time cost with slight maintenance and energy costs versus a full time wage of several workers. And just suggesting 'magic item' is a bit absurd with the wacky economy in this game (remember, most people only earn 1 silver, or .1 gold a day).
I actually was thinking a magical item of some sort. It would be out of reach for lower class people, of course, but nobles could easily afford one. Economies of scale would dictate that the price would go down eventually; this glosses over the, frankly, broken economy of any D&D game but, hey, if your telling me Economics doesn't work in the lore then I'm going to tell you all about my "ladder into 2 poles" get rich quick scheme.
Craft Wondrous Item requires caster level 3. Where are you going to find enough casters to create your assembly line? Economies of scale wouldn't even enter into it. Or do 5th level wizards have nothing better to do than spend their days cranking out magic items? Given the cost of creating magic items, who is going to put up the capital to start the enterprise? How will the wizards be paid? Who is the target market going to be? How will they afford whatever magic widget is being cranked out?
Also, only available to the rich? I thought you said ubiquitous.
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I am sorry, but I seem to be just too unfamiliar with the setting to say how long it has been in this 'perpetual renaissance' you claim. From my perspective, it is simply at he 350 year mark in that 700 year time line you gave it. Do you want the setting to just to randomly jump another 350 years at once so you can finally have your magic ray guns and space ships? ....which admittedly are already lying in wait under Numeria in the current time period
No, I actually stated several times what I wanted but let me make it quite explicit: "I want to know if there is a lore reason for thousands of years of technological/magical stasis." If the answer is "No", I can work with that. If the answer is "Yes" I would like to know what that is.
I am sorry, but I seem to be just too unfamiliar with the setting to say how long it has been in this 'perpetual renaissance' you claim. From my perspective, it is simply at he 350 year mark in that 700 year time line you gave it. Do you want the setting to just to randomly jump another 350 years at once so you can finally have your magic ray guns and space ships? ....which admittedly are already lying in wait under Numeria in the current time periodNo, I actually stated several times what I wanted but let me make it quite explicit: "I want to know if there is a lore reason for thousands of years of technological/magical stasis." If the answer is "No", I can work with that. If the answer is "Yes" I would like to know what that is.
There's an Ask James Jacobs thread around somewhere. I suspect he would know the answer to that.
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No, I actually stated several times what I wanted but let me make it quite explicit: "I want to know if there is a lore reason for thousands of years of technological/magical stasis." If the answer is "No", I can work with that. If the answer is "Yes" I would like to know what that is.
There hasn't really been stasis, there've been rises and falls, as well as a distinctly large number of people keeping 'trade secrets' and not sharing their methodologies. That last one really retards technological progress, and would certainly do the same for magical, since you lack the building blocks needed for additional development.
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No, I actually stated several times what I wanted but let me make it quite explicit: "I want to know if there is a lore reason for thousands of years of technological/magical stasis." If the answer is "No", I can work with that. If the answer is "Yes" I would like to know what that is.There hasn't really been stasis, there've been rises and falls, as well as a distinctly large number of people keeping 'trade secrets' and not sharing their methodologies. That last one really retards technological progress, and would certainly do the same for magical, since you lack the building blocks needed for additional development.
Particularly with immortality and endless youth. Wizards and alchemists can discover the secret, but they never seem to share it with anyone.
Of course, those immortal characters eventually get hunted down by Pharasma's neutral psychopomps, particular breeds of neutral evil daemons, and a dedicated series of Lawful neutral inevitables (outsider robots, basically). I guess that cuts them short before they can pass it on, and they probably spend most of their time preparing for such assaults, leaving little room for them to hold a lecture circuit.
So that might be another problem- too much interference from the Great Beyond. Since most of the alignment focused outsiders were formerly mortal souls...I guess dead people have too much stake in the Material Plane for anyone's good. I doubt we would get much done if Hitler, Stalin, Lincoln, Sun Tzu, and Queen Elizbeth I were waging wars on our doorsteps.
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Because the magic mechanics presented in the sourcebooks are metatextual, designed to facilitate encounter design, not to explain how magic fundamentally works. They aren't the big 'R' Rules and Rites of magic as they exist in the setting, the deeper mysteries, the techniques and philosophies that wizards actually teach each other. Most of that is handwaved as "learning the arcane arts", since D&D has a scatological treatment of magic.
What the system doesn't convey - but which is strongly implied in the setting - is that magic is dangerous, volatile, endlessly enigmatic and seemingly hungry to make fools of those who think they are its master. It's not a tool or an appliance, it's a beast that can be coddled and tricked, but is never truly tamed.
Wizards are taught to respect and fear it, and to treat the proliferation of its secrets as an exercise in catastrophe control. They select apprentices and accept students carefully, weighing their ambition and morals alongside their aptitude. Wizard academies exist to educate, but they also serve to monitor and control, to secret away dangerous spellbooks, to keep war mages loyal to the crown, to preserve an air of rarity, and to guide necromancers away from being the next Adventure Path villain. A free exchange of magical learning would start an arms race, a collapse of sovereignty – or just summon a world eater – that no sane, well-educated wizard wants.
Because the magic mechanics presented in the sourcebooks are metatextual, designed to facilitate encounter design, not to explain how magic fundamentally works. They aren't the big 'R' Rules and Rites of magic as they exist in the setting, the deeper mysteries, the techniques and philosophies that wizards actually teach each other. Most of that is hand waived as "learning the arcane arts", since D&D has a scatological treatment of magic.
What the system doesn't convey - but which is strongly implied in the setting - is that magic is dangerous, volatile, endlessly enigmatic and seemingly hungry to make fools of those who think they are its master. It's not a tool or an appliance, it's a beast that can be coddled and tricked, but is never truly tamed.
Wizards are taught to respect and fear it, and to treat the proliferation of its secrets as an exercise in catastrophe control. They select apprentices and accept students carefully, weighing their ambition and morals alongside their aptitude. Wizard academies exist to educate, but they also serve to monitor and control, to secret away dangerous spellbooks, to keep war mages loyal to the crown, to preserve an air of rarity, and to guide necromancers away from being the next Adventure Path villain. A free exchange of magical learning would start an arms race, a collapse of sovereignty – or just summon a world eater – that no sane, well-educated wizard wants.
...yeah, I can see why a monarchy would not be gun-ho about spreading magic everywhere. A lot of the wizards spells we see in the book is 'send deadly beam of energy in direction'. I would be like giving everyone shotguns, and give them the ability to give other people shotguns.
And the likelihood any of those people take craft feats and do something actually useful is a pipe dream at best compared to the sheer damage that could happen.
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Because the magic mechanics presented in the sourcebooks are metatextual, designed to facilitate encounter design, not to explain how magic fundamentally works. They aren't the big 'R' Rules and Rites of magic as they exist in the setting, the deeper mysteries, the techniques and philosophies that wizards actually teach each other. Most of that is hand waived as "learning the arcane arts", since D&D has a scatological treatment of magic.
What the system doesn't convey - but which is strongly implied in the setting - is that magic is dangerous, volatile, endlessly enigmatic and seemingly hungry to make fools of those who think they are its master. It's not a tool or an appliance, it's a beast that can be coddled and tricked, but is never truly tamed.
Wizards are taught to respect and fear it, and to treat the proliferation of its secrets as an exercise in catastrophe control. They select apprentices and accept students carefully, weighing their ambition and morals alongside their aptitude. Wizard academies exist to educate, but they also serve to monitor and control, to secret away dangerous spellbooks, to keep war mages loyal to the crown, to preserve an air of rarity, and to guide necromancers away from being the next Adventure Path villain. A free exchange of magical learning would start an arms race, a collapse of sovereignty – or just summon a world eater – that no sane, well-educated wizuard wants.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
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I like to go with the assumption that the world exists as it does not in spite of the presence of magic, but because of the presence of magic, and that some of the desert climes, for instance, would be completely uninhabitable without the existence of people able to magically create water.
Instead of asking the question, 'why is the world the way it is despite X,' the built in solution is to take it a step further back and assume that the world is the way it is *because* of X. Create water doesn't invalidate the existence of water-scarce desert cultures, it allows them to exist in areas so water-scarce that they wouldn't even exist without those magical resources, which also provides built in plot hooks, as village Y depends on their few adepts to keep the well topped off, and when a few of them are kidnapped in a gnoll raid, suddenly the entire village's survival hangs in the balance, as the town cistern keeps getting lower every day, and there is nobody to top it off (or not enough remaining adepts/clerics/whatever to keep up with demand)...
[I picked create water out of a hat, since it's been brought up before, but any of the other questions, like how plagues could exist in a world with remove disease, or how kings can die in a world where every kingdom has X people capable of raising the dead, can be dealt with similarly. Raise dead, in fact, is a *great* way to showcase how the world would develop / advance / progress much more slowly, since it's a sad scientific truism that for there to be any progress, the old generation, and their death-grip on their own theories, have to die off and make room for new thinking. In a world where the 'old generation' keeps coming back to hold onto the reins of power, and at the forefront of thought and philosophy, where the church doctrines are handed down from outsiders who *never change their minds,* no matter what their followers think of birth control or lady bishops, the world would be wildly more stagnant and traditionalist and resistant to change than our own.]
Questions like these aren't necessarily adversarial to the setting, even if some regard them as attacks. They can indeed by useful for coming up with plot hooks, and make for a stronger narrative, as you answer the questions for yourself by working backwards from the fixed point of 'So this (setting advancement is thus, despite magic) is true. Let's figure out why, and the answer doesn't have to be 'because people suck at sharing' or 'crabs in a bucket' or 'the gods hate technology'...'
-And this is why I run p6 worlds...I will happily play higher levels, but the reality warping spells of 8th and 9th level in particular make a logical argument difficult. One 18th level mage would be more powerful by a factor of a thousand, than any person who has ever lived on earth, or ever will live. I mean let's face it, Alexander the Great and Napoleon could be easily built as high CHA Fighter Experts of level 5-6.
-99%of humanity would worship a level 18th magic user as a god. He has power over life and death, and can make food out of thin air...
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-99%of humanity would worship a level 18th magic user as a god. He has power over life and death, and can make food out of thin air...
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Exactly, its similar to say computers. And lords knows we didn't develop those at all. Certainly not to the point where anyone can just use to share their thoughts with others via some kind of virtual message board. So magic permeating daily life of Golarion is of course completely unrealistic.Hell, why don't Americans speak several languages? We have easy access and we still don't know these things. Imagine how difficult it must be to find magical training and knowledge in the world that isn't snatched up my powerful wizards, academies, liches, etc.There are several major centers of learning for magic already in the lore; it seems like every major city has a place you can learn magic. And given how useful battlefield magic is you would think most nations would invest heavily to train as many as they could.Seriously! Everyone on modern Earth has a computer with full access to the Internet, why can't everyone have access to magic items that they are capable of using on Golarion? Oh, wait...
Then again, the knowledge of how to build computers exists so anyone should be able to just cobble one together to get the job done. I can't even imagine why the people of the Central African Republic aren't more in tune with the modern world, who cares if they have power-mad warlords constantly rampaging through their villages destroying everything and carting their children away. Hmmm...
Oh, how about the people of Afghanistan and Iran. You know those young kids that are on the verge of joining the technological age. If only they could get their elders to stop stoning them to death or dumping acid all over them.
But you made a good point too Anzyr.
Not everyone in the world, but virtually everyone in all 1st World countries. And a not insignificant population outside of that. Even in regions of intense government control. And I did not even put levels in Computer Programmer to use mine. So Cheliax and Andoran should be getting pretty good Aethernet here.
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I like to go with the assumption that the world exists as it does not in spite of the presence of magic, but because of the presence of magic, and that some of the desert climes, for instance, would be completely uninhabitable without the existence of people able to magically create water.
Instead of asking the question, 'why is the world the way it is despite X,' the built in solution is to take it a step further back and assume that the world is the way it is *because* of X. Create water doesn't invalidate the existence of water-scarce desert cultures, it allows them to exist in areas so water-scarce that they wouldn't even exist without those magical resources, which also provides built in plot hooks, as village Y depends on their few adepts to keep the well topped off, and when a few of them are kidnapped in a gnoll raid, suddenly the entire village's survival hangs in the balance, as the town cistern keeps getting lower every day, and there is nobody to top it off (or not enough remaining adepts/clerics/whatever to keep up with demand)...
[I picked create water out of a hat, since it's been brought up before, but any of the other questions, like how plagues could exist in a world with remove disease, or how kings can die in a world where every kingdom has X people capable of raising the dead, can be dealt with similarly. Raise dead, in fact, is a *great* way to showcase how the world would develop / advance / progress much more slowly, since it's a sad scientific truism that for there to be any progress, the old generation, and their death-grip on their own theories, have to die off and make room for new thinking. In a world where the 'old generation' keeps coming back to hold onto the reins of power, and at the forefront of thought and philosophy, where the church doctrines are handed down from outsiders who *never change their minds,* no matter what their followers think of birth control or lady bishops, the world would be wildly more stagnant and traditionalist and resistant to change than our...
It's an interesting point, Set, and worth considering, but when the OP mentioned ubiquity I imagined ubiquity in magic and also the number of magic users. Imagine your desert scenario if every villager was also an adept, because the ante into that magic system was the equivalent of a cheap civil education. The explanation I wrote before was addressing the social ways of preventing this sort of saturation.
Azlant sounds like it was what you are describing. Magic woven throughout their society. It did not end well and the younger civilizations might uncocuniously remember that and not fully integrate it as much as their doomed predecessors.
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You should check out the Ebberon campaign setting for D&D. It's pretty much exactly what the OP is describing.
Seconding this. I complained to the rest of my group for years about how the Middle Ages/Renaissance standard fantasy world wouldn't logically exist if the 3.5 rules accurately simulated the physics of the game world, and then I found Eberron. It also solves the "magic mart" debate by turning it into a setting feature rather than a bug.
Wizards are taught to respect and fear it, and to treat the proliferation of its secrets as an exercise in catastrophe control. They select apprentices and accept students carefully, weighing their ambition and morals alongside their aptitude. Wizard academies exist to educate, but they also serve to monitor and control, to secret away dangerous spellbooks, to keep war mages loyal to the crown, to preserve an air of rarity, and to guide necromancers away from being the next Adventure Path villain. A free exchange of magical learning would start an arms race, a collapse of sovereignty – or just summon a world eater – that no sane, well-educated wizard wants.
Enter the sorcerers... and the wizards collectively cast Arcane Hand of Facepalming (aka Bigby's Facepalm).
This could be a good reason to have friction between wizards who are properly trained in responsible use of magic and wild card sorcerers who can run the whole spectrum of responsibility.
I can easily imagine the average sorcerer constantly pointing out that all the time the wizard was putting into mastering magic, the sorcerer was getting laid (high CHA + Charm Person + teenage hormones).
So I was driving on my way home from work today, and I was thinking about a campaign I want to run and I began to wonder why arcane magic wasn't completely ubiquitous in Golarion yet. What I mean by that is that arcane magic has been studied in the world for something like 10,000 years, so why isn't a magic a bigger force in everybody’s life? I can understand why divine casters are rare, after all you have to appease a god, but arcane magic merely requires training and a desire to learn.
This isn't true unless you want it to be. There are no rules about who can become a wizard, and it's a standard fantasy trope that only people with a special Gift can work magic. (e.g., the seventh son of a seventh son, or born during an eclipse, or blessed by the fairies at birth, or something).
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This isn't true unless you want it to be. There are no rules about who can become a wizard, and it's a standard fantasy trope that only people with a special Gift can work magic. (e.g., the seventh son of a seventh son, or born during an eclipse, or blessed by the fairies at birth, or something).So I was driving on my way home from work today, and I was thinking about a campaign I want to run and I began to wonder why arcane magic wasn't completely ubiquitous in Golarion yet. What I mean by that is that arcane magic has been studied in the world for something like 10,000 years, so why isn't a magic a bigger force in everybody’s life? I can understand why divine casters are rare, after all you have to appease a god, but arcane magic merely requires training and a desire to learn.
My only concern with that is its treading dangerously close to Sorcerer territory.
At this point, my solution to the dilemma closely mirrors Selk's above. Namely, that magic is largely a personal journey and everybody's magic is a little different from everybody elses. This also explains why one spellcaster can't just read the spellbook of another wizard, they have to decipher it first.
The reason I had this dilemma is because I was intending to have a game where Golarion moved from the renaissance to an age of science and industry. However, if magic could do everything, then science would serve no purpose. Now I have a decent reason: magic is more powerful but science in more reliable.
Wizards are taught to respect and fear it, and to treat the proliferation of its secrets as an exercise in catastrophe control. They select apprentices and accept students carefully, weighing their ambition and morals alongside their aptitude. Wizard academies exist to educate, but they also serve to monitor and control, to secret away dangerous spellbooks, to keep war mages loyal to the crown, to preserve an air of rarity, and to guide necromancers away from being the next Adventure Path villain. A free exchange of magical learning would start an arms race, a collapse of sovereignty – or just summon a world eater – that no sane, well-educated wizard wants.Enter the sorcerers... and the wizards collectively cast Arcane Hand of Facepalming (aka Bigby's Facepalm).
This could be a good reason to have friction between wizards who are properly trained in responsible use of magic and wild card sorcerers who can run the whole spectrum of responsibility.
I can easily imagine the average sorcerer constantly pointing out that all the time the wizard was putting into mastering magic, the sorcerer was getting laid (high CHA + Charm Person + teenage hormones).
Actually, mechanically speaking, sorcerers should also has to study a little to control their gift, wether alone or with masters. Maybe they have to study a lot less, but they need to learn the verbal and somatic components to cast the spells they know, and those components are equal for everyone, since spellcraft is equal for everyone (even more oddly oracles have to too, but that's another topic).
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I like to think that law has a hand in this. While I'm not sure that it is cannon, I certainly think that certain magical powers would be illegal to use, due to easy abuse. For instance, divination magic. Detect Evil/Chaos/Law/Good/Magic/etc would be getting information from someone against their will. That, in fact, is the primary reason my Inquisitor almost never uses that or Discern Lies. Or enchantment magic. You could magically convince people to lie in court on their behalf. Or force them to commit crimes for you. Then there are issues of Evocation used for Terrorism, Necromancy used for, well, for the obvious purposes, etc. So, in 1st world countries, while I don't know if it is actually stated in Golarion or not, I think of magic in general society, at least in the 1st world countries, would be distasteful at least and illegal at worst.
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In Dave Arneson's setting the republished Blackmoor, The Wizard's Cabal actively posts bounties on Sorcerers. What doesn't help is that Sorcerers do tend to come into their powers violently.Enter the sorcerers... and the wizards collectively cast Arcane Hand of Facepalming (aka Bigby's Facepalm).
This could be a good reason to have friction between wizards who are properly trained in responsible use of magic and wild card sorcerers who can run the whole spectrum of responsibility..
I miss the BM campaign.
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I like to go with the assumption that the world exists as it does not in spite of the presence of magic, but because of the presence of magic, and that some of the desert climes, for instance, would be completely uninhabitable without the existence of people able to magically create water.
Instead of asking the question, 'why is the world the way it is despite X,' the built in solution is to take it a step further back and assume that the world is the way it is *because* of X. Create water doesn't invalidate the existence of water-scarce desert cultures, it allows them to exist in areas so water-scarce that they wouldn't even exist without those magical resources, which also provides built in plot hooks, as village Y depends on their few adepts to keep the well topped off, and when a few of them are kidnapped in a gnoll raid, suddenly the entire village's survival hangs in the balance, as the town cistern keeps getting lower every day, and there is nobody to top it off (or not enough remaining adepts/clerics/whatever to keep up with demand)...
[I picked create water out of a hat, since it's been brought up before, but any of the other questions, like how plagues could exist in a world with remove disease, or how kings can die in a world where every kingdom has X people capable of raising the dead, can be dealt with similarly. Raise dead, in fact, is a *great* way to showcase how the world would develop / advance / progress much more slowly, since it's a sad scientific truism that for there to be any progress, the old generation, and their death-grip on their own theories, have to die off and make room for new thinking. In a world where the 'old generation' keeps coming back to hold onto the reins of power, and at the forefront of thought and philosophy, where the church doctrines are handed down from outsiders who *never change their minds,* no matter what their followers think of birth control or lady bishops, the world would be wildly more stagnant and traditionalist and resistant to change than our...
Additionally, I kinda of want to challenege that magic isn't saturated in society. I mean, I can think of several PFS scenarios where magic is used in the ways that people are saying it isn't (i.e. Hallways with Continual Flame cast on them, walls that clean themselves with permanent prestidigation spells, basins of unclean water with a wand of purify food and drink next to it). It seems to me like there is plenty of magic in society. I mean, would a ray of frost actually be a more cost effective solution than just getting a block of ice?
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but arcane magic merely requires training and a desire to learn.
I could say the same thing about scientists and engineers in the real world.
Do you really think that the king would allow the local magic college to train just anyone? Spells like hypnotism, charm person, and mage hand all have such potential for abuse that most rulers would tightly regulate what is allowed to be taught, and to whom.
Then you have to factor in stuff like finite resources. If making a magic item takes, say, a gallon of fresh dragons blood, how long do you think mass production would need to continue before dragons started hunting your craft wizards down?
In my Golarion, Sorcerers have an innate gift of magic, and need only very little 'training' (they just play with their magic). But that gift is mostly reserved for PC's.
Wizards on the other hand need excessive training to even learn how to cast cantrips (2-3 months just to learn read magic, after that it's a bit faster).
And they need a spellbook. Writing even a cantrip into a spellbook costs 5gp, a serious investment for commoners. Add that up if you want to have an army of Wizards.
Those are the reasons why magic isn't all over the place in my Golarion.