Dodge with a 2h Weapon Paladin?

[Michael Smith 978]

Hey all, a question: I'm building a greatsword weilding human paladin. 20point build. Is it worth it for me to put 13 into Dex and take dodge as a feat in order to boost my AC a bit? If I did so, I may or may not do it the first level, but it'd be done by 3rd. I should note that I may end up being the sole "heavy" in my group as the other players are all looking at rouges and rangers and wizards and such.

[Lathiira]

I'd say no to Dodge. It's one point of AC. That's at most 5% less chance of being hit. Spend the feat on something that boosts your offensive output instead (e.g. Power Attack) or staying power in other ways.

[Torchlyte]

Dodge is a worthy feat in the absence of something better. Power Attack is a good choice, but that's only one feat. If you had a ton of alternatives that boosted your damage then I'd agree with Lathiira, but there really aren't any others.

Alternatives to boost staying power would be things like Iron Will or Great Fortitude, but as a Paladin I feel like your saves are pretty good anyways. As a front-line fighter, that 5% miss chance will pay its dividends over the course of your campaign. If I recall correctly, dodge bonuses also apply to CMD.

Other good early choices include Step Up and Improved Initiative.

[Corvino]

If you're building a two-hander Paladin you're pretty likely to get hit, and 1 point of AC isn't going to make a huge difference. What might is improving your staying power by other means. Arguably having a deeper pool of HP is better than having a high AC, as more HP also helps against area of effect attacks and other sources of damage that ignore armor. I'd say 12 Dex is fine to get some benefit from regular full plate though.

Paladins can use Lay on Hands to self-heal as a Swift Action. Boosting this can give you remarkable staying power. Fey Foundling as a first level feat gives you +2 HP healing for every die rolled, and Lay on Hands rolls a lot of dice. A combination of Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy allow you to heal a good deal of damage whenever you need to, get Extra Lay on Hands if you feel you need more uses per day. Apart from that pick up Power Attack and a few more damage-enhancing feats and enjoy!

[Torchlyte]

Corvino wrote:

Arguably having a deeper pool of HP is better than having a high AC, as more HP also helps against area of effect attacks and other sources of damage that ignore armor. I'd say 12 Dex is fine to get some benefit from regular full plate though.

Attacks that don't target AC are generally less common, so you will get less benefit out of defending against them. If you get hit by two physical attacks and one magic attack and they all do equal damage, then 5% less physical damage is equivalent to 10% less magic damage in usefulness.

AC also scales off of HP gain, whereas HP scales off of AC gain. Which one is truly better depends on situation-specific math, but then you also have to consider on-hit status effects. I'd rather have more AC instead of HP against something that will level drain me.

Corvino wrote:

Paladins can use Lay on Hands to self-heal as a Swift Action. Boosting this can give you remarkable staying power. Fey Foundling as a first level feat gives you +2 HP healing for every die rolled, and Lay on Hands rolls a lot of dice. A combination of Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy allow you to heal a good deal of damage whenever you need to, get Extra Lay on Hands if you feel you need more uses per day. Apart from that pick up Power Attack and a few more damage-enhancing feats and enjoy!

This is probably good advice if you have the freedom to use stuff outside of what's available on the PRD. Extra healing may not be as useful as additional prevention though if you have a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

[Corvino]

Additional HP or mitigation in the form of swift action self-healing or Damage Reduction is reliable, unlike the avoidance bonuses provided by AC. Even with a higher AC there are situations where you will be hit three or four times in a row. DR mitigates the damage from every hit, while reliable self-healing will always heal you, regardless of how many hits you took. Dodge is an underwhelming & non-scaling feat that works quite well at low levels or combined with a wholly defensive character, but is otherwise not worth it. (Exceptions exist, but on a 2-h Paladin they're unlikely)

When you get to higher levels, enemies are going to hit you very regularly regardless of 1 more point of AC. The difference between an enemy hitting you 60% of the time compared to 65% of the time is less important than the ability to heal through it regardless.

[Torchlyte]

Corvino wrote:

Additional... mitigation in the form of swift action self-healing or Damage Reduction is [useful]

I agree, which is why I said that it was good advice. I'm not sure how much damage reduction you're getting from low-level feats, though.

Corvino wrote:

Dodge is a... non-scaling feat

This is only true if your opponent always hits on a 2+, as AC increases your effective HP by a percentage, thereby scaling with your HP, thereby scaling with your level.

Corvino wrote:

combined with a wholly defensive character

There is a principle called "decreasing marginal utility" that you're not grasping here. A highly defensive character benefits more from offense than from defense, since it will help him to accomplish what he lacks. The opposite is true for a highly offensive character EXCEPT when the offensive character can end threats instantly by investing a little more in offense.

Corvino wrote:

When you get to higher levels, enemies are going to hit you very regularly regardless of 1 more point of AC. The difference between an enemy hitting you 60% of the time compared to 65% of the time is less important than the ability to heal through it regardless.

Agreed, especially since the Paladin can heal many of the status effects that result from being hit (although not all of them, and in such cases a dodge bonus would be better).

[Corvino]

I call Dodge a non-scaling feat because it does not ever give you more than 1 point of dodge AC. Your opponent is always 5% less likely to hit (unless it's natural 1 or natural 20 only). It increases avoidance, which while theoretically nice is prone to failure in the event of bad dice rolls.

Fey Foundling scales - for every additional die you roll you get 2 more HP per use of Lay on Hands.
Greater Mercy scales - you get more mercies as you level, and more mercies means more HP healed.

High HP, Damage Reduction and methods of "restocking" HP like Lay on Hands increase your Effective Health, or the amount of damage you can take before dying. This is less prone to failure due to a string of bad dice rolls. You will probably get hit more, but it doesn't matter as much because you have a way to deal with it. This is the basis of Invulnerable Rager Barbarians (high DR/-) and "masochist tank" Paladins (near bottomless health pools) being effective tanks.

At low levels, when you are less likely to get hit, Avoidance is good. As enemies get tougher at higher levels Avoidance means you either take no damage, or lots of damage which you are less capable of taking than an equivalent Effective Health tank. Effective Health tanks always get hit, but are built to deal with it better.

[Torchlyte]

Corvino wrote:

Stuff

While I disagree with your narrow concept of scaling, there's no point in debating the semantics of it. I agree with the principle that a sure defense is better than a probability-based defense, depending on the magnitude. However, probability is still a part of the game and you are hurting yourself if you refuse to take bonuses that will reduce the chance of you being affected.

Corvino wrote:

Greater Mercy scales - you get more mercies as you level, and more mercies means more HP healed.

Actually, that's incorrect.

PRD wrote:

Greater Mercy
Your mercy has incredible recuperative properties.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, lay on hands class feature, mercy class feature.
Benefit: When you use your lay on hands ability and the target of that ability does not have any conditions your mercies can remove, it instead heals an additional +1d6 points of damage.

The additional healing occurs whenever there are no conditions removed. Nowhere does it say that this increases with the number of conditions you could have removed.

[Blakmane]

Hi Michael,

Often with feats, it's more about the opportunity cost (ie what DIDN'T you take) than the feat itself. Almost all feats have some utility... but especially as a paladin you have very few feats to waste.

At level 1 as a human paladin, the most optimal feats are probably:

- power attack

- fey foundling

You could perhaps take dodge at level 3, but there are still better options to take such as:

- improved initiative

- furious focus

- weapon focus or improved critical

- extra lay on hands

- step up

Plus you save an otherwise worthless point or three of dexterity that you would need to qualify for dodge, to put into another stat that may actually benefit from it.

*edit*

How are you allocating your stats, actually? With 20 point buy and a THD weapon i'd probably do something like:

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16

or, for a greater disparity (I don't like dumping stats this hard though):

STR 19
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 7
CHA 16

Either way, you don't really have a lot of room for 13 DEX.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

I second not taking Dodge.

As a 2H Paladin, you'll need to be pumping out damage and have great healing capability. 90% of the crap you fight as a Good-aligned character (or even Evil-aligned character) is Evil-aligned creatures, so Smite will be your go-to for damage. You won't have a shield, your Full Plate will only cover at-best +14 AC, with maybe +5 AoNA and +5 RoP, putting you at a generous base of 34 AC, all things considered. Most creatures with a highest BAB of +30 (20 BAB and 10 Strength), descending to +15, will only hit 2, maybe 3 times in a round. The damage may be huge, given a +10/+15 Strength modifier and +12/+18 from Power Attack, but you can heal that with Lay On Hands and the proper feat investments quite easily with just a Swift Action. You can then still full attack, getting your level + Strength + Power Attack in damage for each hit (because your Strength + Charisma to attacks and including full BAB), and they drop like flies since they have no DR against your attacks.

[Corvino]

I tend to plan for worst-case scenarios, Torchlyte, perhaps the dice gods just dislike me. I'll take a sure thing over chance every time. Things like damage resistance, static bonuses and on-demand abilities tend to save my neck when I roll badly or an enemy rolls well.

AC can be useful, but I don't think that in a relatively feat-starved class like the paladin that Dodge justifies the investment well enough. For Fighters (who are more likely to have better Dex to take advantage of Armor Training anyway) it can be a decent choice.

[Rub-Eta]

I would consider it worth taking dodge, but not to get the 13Dex you need to take it. Not worth it.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

@ Blakmane: To be honest, he could stand dumping Dexterity down also, and maybe put his Con at 12 since his AC will be crap, his Reflex Saves will still be godlike, he won't have the Skill Points (much less the need) to use Dexterity-related skills, and he can heal back most of any hit points he loses anyway.

That being said, here goes:

20+1+4+4 = 29 Points to spend.

18(+2 Racial)= 20 Strength. (17 points)
9 Dexterity. (+1 points)
12 Constitution. (2 points)
7 Intelligence (+4 points)
7 Wisdom (+4 points)
16 Charisma (10 points)

You could put your +2 Racial into Charisma if you value that more; or, if you can get away with it, take the racial trait that allows you to put +2 to 2 different stats, giving you 18 Charisma and 20 Strength to start, or inverse it if Charisma is more favorable, since you can do without a feat (2H Weapons aren't too feat intensive, and you can do without an extra feat anyway), and you don't really need any skills as a Paladin, especially one who professes himself as a Zealot of Battle.

[Torchlyte]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

You won't have a shield, your Full Plate will only cover at-best +14 AC, with maybe +5 AoNA and +5 RoP, putting you at a generous base of 34 AC, all things considered.

Against a +30 attack, +1 AC is just as good on 34 AC as it is on 49 AC.

Blakmane wrote:

weapon focus or improved critical

Is +1 attack better than +1 AC? I would say that's a whole debate in itself.

You also can't take improved critical at level 3, although I'm guessing that you meant that it contributes to crowding out Dodge due to an overall scarcity of feat slots..

Corvino wrote:

I tend to plan for worst-case scenarios, Torchlyte, perhaps the dice gods just dislike me. I'll take a sure thing over chance every time. Things like damage resistance, static bonuses and on-demand abilities tend to save my neck when I roll badly or an enemy rolls well.

AC can be useful, but I don't think that in a relatively feat-starved class like the paladin that Dodge justifies the investment well enough. For Fighters (who are more likely to have better Dex to take advantage of Armor Training anyway) it can be a decent choice.

I totally get that, and I think it totally makes sense. I could talk for an hour about how sure bonuses are better than risky ones. Ultimately though you have to get some luck (not always rolling 1's on everything) or you will always lose. When you do get that little bit of luck, will it be a narrow success or a narrow failure?

Rub-Eta wrote:

I would consider it worth taking dodge, but not to get the 13Dex you need to take it. Not worth it.

This, I could agree with. However, if we accept the premise that +1 AC is sometimes better than +1 HP per level then maybe sacrificing a little Con for a little Dex isn't out of the question.

[Athaleon]

One AC is not worth a feat; Dodge (and Mobility) are called feat taxes for a reason. There are a lot better feats you can take.

Fey Foundling + Greater Mercy has been mentioned. There is also the old staple of picking up the Oath of Vengeance archetype and taking Extra Lay On Hands (the archetype allows you to activate Smite Evil by spending two uses of LoH). Also, the Oath of Vengeance might more lenient than a standard Paladins code, since you are expressly allowed to ignore lesser evils in your pursuit of greater ones.

I also have a soft spot for Intimidate builds, on any 2H Weapon user. You're taking Power Attack anyways, and using it most of the time, so you might as well pick up Cornugon Smash for the free Intimidate attempt on every power attack. You can also pick up Furious Focus and Dreadful Carnage for area-effect Intimidate when you drop an opponent. Then put a Cruel enhancement on your weapon (though your Paladin might want to call it Righteous Fury or something). Intimidating Prowess adds your Strength to your Intimidate checks.

Stacking up the Shaken and Sickened effects is a powerful debuff, and your intimidating presence may even convince enemies to attack you and not the Wizard.

You could also work toward gaining a Familiar via Eldritch Heritage, if you have enough skill points to push your Use Magic Device skill. It's a huge help to get another set of actions flying around, even if it's just using first level Wands (Grease, Lesser Restoration, Litany of Sloth, and Ill Omen are just a few that come to mind). A few scrolls of Litany of Escape could come in handy as well.

[Michael Smith 978]

Blakmane wrote:

How are you allocating your stats, actually? With 20 point buy and a THD weapon i'd probably do something like:

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16

or, for a greater disparity (I don't like dumping stats this hard though):

STR 19
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 7
CHA 16

Either way, you don't really have a lot of room for 13 DEX.

My current array (presuming I DON'T bump DEX to 13)

STR- 17
DEX- 12
CON- 13
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16

Like you I hate dumping, plus a low INT doesn't really fit my character concept. I also wonder if I should bump STR down to 16 in order to bump CON to 14 at level 1.

Also, whil I have everyone's attention: Essential paladin skills? I was thinking heal, know(religion) and intimidate (going for a scary Death paladin. LG, but in service to the God of Death. Undead destroyer type character). I'm going to be using a trait that gives me intimidate as a class skill.

[Silhren Rilbahn]

Speaking as someone who is currently playing two paladins in PFS...

I'd look at other options over Dodge. In general it is a decent feat, but there are usually better options.

One of my two paladins also use a two-handed weapon. Have you considered taking toughness?

Also, if you are going to be the only "heavy", maybe give Endurance & Toughness consideration? I have put those feats to great effect and don't regret taking them.

Invest in a few items like a ring of force shield, jingasa, and an armored kilt will help more than Dodge. And then you can use feats to do other things with your paladin abilities.

Edit-

If you don't like stat dumping, have you considered leaving INT & WIS at 10 and dropping DEX to 10 as well? Those stats aren't quite as vital unless of course you were going to be doing something other than melee combat.

With a 20 point buy (and assuming you are playing as a human) I came up with this. And of course you could move these around if you wanted:

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

I'd consider moving STR and CON at level one. Note this is more of a safe/survivable build. You have lots of good advice from other posts already. I think you are in good hands.

[Silhren Rilbahn]

And if you are worried about AC, check out the Divine Defender archetype (this gives up the mercy ability though)

[Michael Smith 978]

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

If you don't like stat dumping, have you considered leaving INT & WIS at 10 and dropping DEX to 10 as well? Those stats aren't quite as vital unless of course you were going to be doing something other than melee combat.

With a 20 point buy (and assuming you are playing as a human) I came up with this. And of course you could move these around if you wanted:

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

I'd consider moving STR and CON at level one. Note this is more of a safe/survivable build. You have lots of good advice from other posts already. I think you are in good hands.

I wasn't sure about knocking DEX from 12 to 10 just because that 12 gives me a +1 to AC and REF saves. Being without a shield, I was trying to get all the AC I could. I know that in the end it's all about what the GM throws at me, but do I have enough AC (figure I'll start with scale mail) to be able to eat the DEX and put it in CON a'la the stat block above? Is losing that +1 to REF generally worth it?

Oh, and I can kind of live with an 8 WIS. I've a trait that will give me a +1 to my will saves and it fits the concept I have of someone who was raised in a monastery and is thus not super-savvy with the ways of the world.

[Silhren Rilbahn]

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

If you don't like stat dumping, have you considered leaving INT & WIS at 10 and dropping DEX to 10 as well? Those stats aren't quite as vital unless of course you were going to be doing something other than melee combat.

With a 20 point buy (and assuming you are playing as a human) I came up with this. And of course you could move these around if you wanted:

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

I'd consider moving STR and CON at level one. Note this is more of a safe/survivable build. You have lots of good advice from other posts already. I think you are in good hands.

I wasn't sure about knocking DEX from 12 to 10 just because that 12 gives me a +1 to AC and REF saves. Being without a shield, I was trying to get all the AC I could. I know that in the end it's all about what the GM throws at me, but do I have enough AC (figure I'll start with scale mail) to be able to eat the DEX and put it in CON a'la the stat block above? Is losing that +1 to REF generally worth it?

A good GM won't go out of their way to deliberately try to kill you all the time :) . Like I said, you can invest in an armored kilt (which can be enchanted separately from armor). And because you are a paladin, I'd imagine that the chances of you being able to benefit from Smite Evil will be pretty high. Focusing on CHA in place of DEX will be more beneficial in my opinion. Have you considered putting ability points from leveling into DEX if it's making you nervous? Your REF save will always be lower than your other saves.. a single point may or may not make a difference. You can always take Lightning Reflexes if you are worried about that particular save too. Save up and make Full-Plate (or Mithral Full-Plate if you are feeling fancy) and make that one of your first purchases. Smite will also bump your AC. Check out the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, haste will help as well.

[Michael Smith 978]

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

A good GM won't go out of their way to deliberately try to kill you all the time :) . Like I said, you can invest in an armored kilt (which can be enchanted separately from armor). And because you are a paladin, I'd imagine that the chances of you being able to benefit from Smite Evil will be pretty high. Focusing on CHA in place of DEX will be more beneficial in my opinion. Have you considered putting ability points from leveling into DEX if it's making you nervous? Your REF save will always be lower than your other saves.. a single point may or may not make a difference. You can always take Lightning Reflexes if you are worried about that particular save too. Save up and make Full-Plate (or Mithral Full-Plate if you are feeling fancy) and make that one of your first purchases. Smite will also bump your AC. Check out the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, haste will help as well.

Anything I mine out of DEX I'd be putting in STR, CON or CHA. A little look at the numbers...

If I started with-

STR- 16 (14 +2 human)
DEX-10
CON-15
INT-10
WIS-8
CHA-16

At Lv. 20 I could have...

STR-18
DEX- 10
CON- 16
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 18

... which does have a nice evenness to it. Hmmmmm....

[Silhren Rilbahn]

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

A good GM won't go out of their way to deliberately try to kill you all the time :) . Like I said, you can invest in an armored kilt (which can be enchanted separately from armor). And because you are a paladin, I'd imagine that the chances of you being able to benefit from Smite Evil will be pretty high. Focusing on CHA in place of DEX will be more beneficial in my opinion. Have you considered putting ability points from leveling into DEX if it's making you nervous? Your REF save will always be lower than your other saves.. a single point may or may not make a difference. You can always take Lightning Reflexes if you are worried about that particular save too. Save up and make Full-Plate (or Mithral Full-Plate if you are feeling fancy) and make that one of your first purchases. Smite will also bump your AC. Check out the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, haste will help as well.

Anything I mine out of DEX I'd be putting in STR, CON or CHA. A little look at the numbers...

If I started with-

STR- 16 (14 +2 human)
DEX-10
CON-15
INT-10
WIS-8
CHA-16

At Lv. 20 I could have...

STR-18
DEX- 10
CON- 16
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 18

... which does have a nice evenness to it. Hmmmmm....

Do what you want. I've just given you one possibility that I can also vouch works. the stat block I presented is what I have used in PFS and a homegame that went mythic. It's not the only one, but certainly one of many. What do you value more? Strength? Or Constitution?

[ProfPotts]

How about taking the Dangerously Curious magic trait to put UMD on your class list (with 16 Charisma, 1 skill rank, and the trait bonus,that'd give you a reasonable +8 to UMD at level 1) then just buying a wand of shield?

[Michael Smith 978]

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Do what you want. I've just given you one possibility that I can also vouch works. the stat block I presented is what I have used in PFS and a homegame that went mythic. It's not the only one, but certainly one of many. What do you value more? Strength? Or Constitution?

STR, because I'm going to be a damage dealer, power attacking baddies with a big sword. Some CON is handy, though, to keep me in the fight.

[Silhren Rilbahn]

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

[Justin Sane]

My (Half-Elf) Paladin's stats: 16 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 12 INT, 7 WIS, 14+2 CHA.
Int is there for the skill points alone, a Human could go 10 Int and 8 Wis and still get 3 sp/level.

[Michael Smith 978]

ProfPotts wrote:

How about taking the Dangerously Curious magic trait to put UMD on your class list (with 16 Charisma, 1 skill rank, and the trait bonus,that'd give you a reasonable +8 to UMD at level 1) then just buying a wand of shield?

That's a good idea, actually. Having said that, I'm allowed two traits and the two I have already picked out really fit my concept. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

[Michael Smith 978]

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

[Silhren Rilbahn]

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

Paladins can't worship Pharasma and get their paladin powers from her.

Have you considered Sarenrae? She HATES undead.

[Michael Smith 978]

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

Paladins can't worship Pharasma and get their paladin powers from her.

Have you considered Sarenrae? She HATES undead.

Pretty sure my GM is going to bend the rules on that count. He sounded amenable to my concept. She'll still be played LG. Just a scary, intimidating kind of LG.

EDIT-

Some support for the idea and how it works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-183305.html

[FangDragon]

For what it's worth scary Paladins often worship Ragathiel.

[Silhren Rilbahn]

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

Paladins can't worship Pharasma and get their paladin powers from her.

Have you considered Sarenrae? She HATES undead.

Pretty sure my GM is going to bend the rules on that count. He sounded amenable to my concept. She'll still be played LG. Just a scary, intimidating kind of LG.

EDIT-

Some support for the idea and how it works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-183305.html

Ah, ok. Didn't realize this was for a home-brew campaign. Well have fun with it

[ProfPotts]

How about Damerrich (empyreal lord of executions, judiciousness, and resonsibility) worshipped by executioners, judges, morticians and the wrongfully accused; or Vildeis (empyreal lord of devotion, sacrifice, and scars) worshipped by martyrs, the obsessed, paladins, and crusaders? Both of them are Lawful Good, and 'goth'-esque... Damerrich even has access to the Death domain, if that's what you're after?

[Michael Smith 978]

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

Paladins can't worship Pharasma and get their paladin powers from her.

Have you considered Sarenrae? She HATES undead.

Pretty sure my GM is going to bend the rules on that count. He sounded amenable to my concept. She'll still be played LG. Just a scary, intimidating kind of LG.

EDIT-

Some support for the idea and how it works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-183305.html

Ah, ok. Didn't realize this was for a home-brew campaign. Well have fun with it

Eh, I wouldn't call it full on homebrew (we are doing the jade regenr path, after all), but my group is a touch loose and wouldn't stand in the way of a good concept. Given one of the developers quotes that paladins don't actually derive their power directly from the gods (see link) and my character concept (that she's one of a kind as a paladin, a kind of trained superweapon by her order), I think having a paladin wbo worships a true neutral god is, at worst, a rubbery bend of the rules and not a snapping break. This is more a fluff than a crunch issue, anyways. If my GM suddenly got uptight, then push comes to shove, I can change her religion.

[Michael Smith 978]

ProfPotts wrote:

How about Damerrich (empyreal lord of executions, judiciousness, and resonsibility) worshipped by executioners, judges, morticians and the wrongfully accused; or Vildeis (empyreal lord of devotion, sacrifice, and scars) worshipped by martyrs, the obsessed, paladins, and crusaders? Both of them are Lawful Good, and 'goth'-esque... Damerrich even has access to the Death domain, if that's what you're after?

Good calls.I shall investigate further (pathfinder cosmology is not my strong suit).

[Cap. Darling]

Consider Picking the versatile human subtype. That Way you Can get stats like Str 17 cha 16 con 14 int 13 wis and dex 10. The int Will make up for the lost skill point and allow you to Pick Unsanctioned Knowledge. This Will allow you some spells that Will help survivabillity more than 2 AC. Throw your stat gains in str and all Will be well.

[Sir Constantine Godalming]

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

[Michael Smith 978]

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

Oh trust me, I looked long and hard at half orc. Even had an origin story for that scenario. That bonus feat and extra skill point proved too tempting. That said, we don't play until next sunday, so half orc version could still possibly happen...

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

Oh trust me, I looked long and hard at half orc. Even had an origin story for that scenario. That bonus feat and extra skill point proved too tempting. That said, we don't play until next sunday, so half orc version could still possibly happen...

To be honest, a Paladin doesn't need skill points or an extra feat, since there isn't too much they need. Fey Foundling, Power Attack, Greater Mercy, Reward of Life/Reward of Grace are basically all of the feats you need. The rest can be Extra LoHs or something else that suits some other purpose (Intimidating Prowess, for example). As for skills, you even said that you aren't really going to be a party face, more of a "I'm a Scary Dude," with the concept of Death (that is Knowledge [Religion] territory) enforced. So, Intimidate and Knowledge [Religion] covers the 2 skills you're planning to work with, meaning you can either keep the 10 Intelligence and get an extra hit point per level, or you can dump it to 7, increase your more important stats to a higher level, and sink your FCB into Skills, still netting you the 2 skills/level that you need.

Sacrificing the bonus skill/level and the feat to get an extra +2 to your Charisma (or Strength if you put your original +2 to Charisma), on the other hand, seems like a better bargain, something which a feat and a skill point cannot possibly replicate, and is in itself worth taking over Half-Orc.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

I'll point out that Darkness (unless it's Deeper Darkness, which almost nothing ever casts anyway, because what has the See-In-Darkness special ability?) can be countered with a 75 gold item and that Half-Orc Ferocity only operates for a single round, which doesn't mean much, and even if it did, is absolutely pointless for a Paladin because the Paladin cannot (accidentally) die. He's literally a walking immortal whose sustenance is sated by Lay On Hands.

The Paladin would have to Coupe De Grace himself and purposely fail his saving throw to die in the realm of mechanics. The only other method is Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies. But that's just not fair to the rest of them.

[Cap. Darling]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

I'll point out that Darkness (unless it's Deeper Darkness, which almost nothing ever casts anyway, because what has the See-In-Darkness special ability?) can be countered with a 75 gold item and that Half-Orc Ferocity only operates for a single round, which doesn't mean much, and even if it did, is absolutely pointless for a Paladin because the Paladin cannot (accidentally) die. He's literally a walking immortal whose sustenance is sated by Lay On Hands.

The Paladin would have to Coupe De Grace himself and purposely fail his saving throw to die in the realm of mechanics. The only other method is Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies. But that's just not fair to the rest of them.

You dont use crits in your game?

Not that i Think ferocity is the good part of Half orcs.

[Sir Constantine Godalming]

Ferocity + loh as a swift action is.......

That embarrassing drop to below zero, and any other race goes down....not the half orc...

[KotC ChaiGuy]

One good trick for half-Orc is taking the alternate racial trait Sacred Tatoo (from the Advanced Race Guide) replaces Orc Ferocity with a +1 luck bonus to all saves, combine this with the trait Fates Favored and it increases to +2 luck bonus to all saves. This is a really good deal IMO, but I know that you have your characters traits lined up; I still thought I’d throw the option out.

Also note that since your character has an intimidation focus that the half-orc has a +2 racial bonus to intimidate, so a half-orc paladin may be more intimidating than a human paladin even though the former would have fewer skill points.

If you’re would like to take Sacred Tatoo and still want the extra durability of Orc Ferocity you can get it by trading out the aforementioned +2 racial intimidate bonus for the Endurance feat (racial option ARG) and taking the Die Hard feat, which is actually better than Orc Ferocity (although it comes with a price obviously). As a note as a half-orc the character has the option to get the Deathless Initiate feat, which is pretty cool IMO Deathless Initiate

Concerning the Wand of Shield with UMD route, I’m pretty sure that spells with a range of personal can’t be made into scroll’s or wands, but now that I’m trying to find the exact location of that restriction I can’t seem to find it.

[Justin Sane]

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

spells with a range of personal can’t be made into scroll’s or wands potions

[KotC ChaiGuy]

Justin Sane wrote:

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

spells with a range of personal can’t be made into scroll’s or wands potions

Thanks for the clarification Justin Sane! =)

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

I'll point out that Darkness (unless it's Deeper Darkness, which almost nothing ever casts anyway, because what has the See-In-Darkness special ability?) can be countered with a 75 gold item and that Half-Orc Ferocity only operates for a single round, which doesn't mean much, and even if it did, is absolutely pointless for a Paladin because the Paladin cannot (accidentally) die. He's literally a walking immortal whose sustenance is sated by Lay On Hands.

The Paladin would have to Coupe De Grace himself and purposely fail his saving throw to die in the realm of mechanics. The only other method is Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies. But that's just not fair to the rest of them.

You dont use crits in your game?

Not that i Think ferocity is the good part of Half orcs.

All Paladins have a lot of hit points and regenerative qualities. Lay On Hands + Fey Foundling = XD6 + 2X + Y (any other bonuses that may apply) as a Swift Action, not to mention they can choose to use their spells (or still have their standard action) to heal as well.

Most of them have high AC and Saves, making the ability to hit them almost impossible, even with a 15-20 threat range, and save or die/suck spells go out the window, thanks to their saves and immunities. Tack on Fortification and other benefits, criticals just went out the door.

That's not including other lines of defenses they can get; for example, Unsanctioned Knowledge can grant Mirror Images to the Paladin, not to mention being able to buff yourself with Haste, Freedom of Movement, and apply CC with Ear-Piercing Scream.

The only ways that a Paladin could possibly die is if they decide to Coupe De Grace themselves, or force the GM to play the "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" card.

[Cap. Darling]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Sir Constantine Godalming wrote:

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

I'll point out that Darkness (unless it's Deeper Darkness, which almost nothing ever casts anyway, because what has the See-In-Darkness special ability?) can be countered with a 75 gold item and that Half-Orc Ferocity only operates for a single round, which doesn't mean much, and even if it did, is absolutely pointless for a Paladin because the Paladin cannot (accidentally) die. He's literally a walking immortal whose sustenance is sated by Lay On Hands.

The Paladin would have to Coupe De Grace himself and purposely fail his saving throw to die in the realm of mechanics. The only other method is Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies. But that's just not fair to the rest of them.

You dont use crits in your game?

Not that i Think ferocity is the good part of Half orcs.

All Paladins have a lot of hit points and regenerative qualities. Lay On Hands + Fey Foundling = XD6 + 2X + Y (any other bonuses that may apply) as a Swift Action, not to mention they can choose to use their spells (or still have their standard action) to heal as well.

Most of them have high AC and Saves, making the ability to hit them almost impossible, even with a 15-20 threat range, and save or die/suck spells go out the window, thanks to their saves and immunities. Tack on Fortification and other benefits, criticals just went out the door.

That's not including other lines of defenses they can get; for example, Unsanctioned Knowledge can grant Mirror Images to the Paladin, not to mention being able to buff yourself with Haste, Freedom of Movement, and apply CC with Ear-Piercing Scream.

The only ways that a Paladin could possibly die is if they decide to Coupe De Grace themselves, or force the GM to play the "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" card.

I am not gonna cry bad wrong fun. But it sounds like paladins get the easy treatment in your game.

I think most Paladins have fine durability and i can see if you invest everything in defense you get hard to kill. But if you make a paladin built to prove your point i am sure that 20 guys can find a Challenge that can kill him.

[Justin Sane]

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think most Paladins have fine durability and i can see if you invest everything in defense you get hard to kill. But if you make a paladin built to prove your point i am sure that 20 guys can find a Challenge that can kill him.

The thing is, stuff that can easily kill a Paladin absolutely flattens any other martial.

[wraithstrike]

I have killed more than one paladin. They can die, but I do admit they are hard to kill. They won't always be buffed, nor will they always have a full's day worth of lay on hands.