Michael Smith 978's page

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Greatsword with improved critical

(80x7) + (20x14) = 840 Total Damage Output

Falchion

(70x5) + (30x10)= 650 Total Damage Output

Using your method (which is a bit simplistic, but at least we're doing apples to apples), the falchion becomes equal to the greatsword in damage when STATIC BONUSES on each for damage are +17. Does that sound high? Well, remember we are talking about a Paladin, so smiting makes getting a +17 static bonus to damage quite easy. From then on (as static bonuses climb), the falchion will provide more damage in the long haul.

What's a good way to calculate static bonuses over level progression?

My paladin will worship Shizuru, whose favored weapon is the katana, and I plan on sticking to that as my primary weapon. Katanas are only exotic if wielded one handed, so I can wield it two handed as a martial weapon, doing 1d8 with an 18-20 crit range. Not the most optimized weapon in the game, but close enough for me, and the fluff is perfect for a Tien worshiper of the goddess of swordfighting.

Is there some bonus you get using your god's favorite weapon? Because if not, have you considered the nodachi? It's basically a big, two-handed katana and is 1) classified simply as a martial weapon and 2) a more powerful weapon to boot (same crit range, 1d10 damage, brace special feature).

@op: i can do without it for the most part, but for an intimidate-centric build with cornugon smash, weapon focus going down to shatter defenses (and later dreadful carnage) is totes worth it if youre going in that direction--though just stick to using cornugon and dreadful carnage--eating your turn (dazzling display) with something you can do for free (cornugon, dreadful) is just stupid.

Gotcha, though I'd still need to take dazzling display as a prereq for shatter defenses.

AND WHILE I HAVE EVERYONE'S ATTENTION:

What's a good Critical Feat Chain?

Falchion = Greatsword DPR at +19 damage and Falchion > Greatsword at +20 damage if you have a keen weapon.

Without a keen Weapon Falchion = Greatsword at 39 damage and Falchion > Greatsword at +40 damage.

However the Nodachi is > Falchion unless enlarged or vital striking.

Even at +60 damage however the DPR difference is 3.895 between Falchion and Greatsword so *Shrug* pick whichever.

Basically You want to wield two handed a Falchion, Greatsword, Falcata, or Nodachi if you go purely by the numbers and Falcata ends up best.

Yet again however it is only an improvement of 4.8925 DPR at most at +60 damage.

So in my opinion I would not burn the feat and would just pick Greatsword, Nodachi, or Falchion as you prefer.

Since we're doing the Jade Regent campaign, I'm going to start with either a greatsword or falchion, but once we get to Tian, I'm grabbing a nodachi at the first opportunity (and I will retrain weapon focus if I end up taking the feat). Early on I'm not really stuck on any single weapon, but at later levels I want to be nodachi ALL THE WAY. Just the image alone of a Death Paladin swinging a huge katana is worth it. The extra DPR is gravy. Very sweet gravy...

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

With that many points, the only way I could make a character that was battle effective in my designated role as party tank and that was to take a hit to one of those stats.

Here's your build:

STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16

Simple, that 15 in CON is useless. Take those two points, and you can have your WIS back to 10.

CON 15 is useless at level 1, yes, but my plan was to boost it to 16 when I got a new attribute point at level 4. That way, by level 20 I'd have an 18 in STR and CHA, and a 16 in CON. Serious question, then: Can I get by with a CON of 14 all the way until level 20, or am I better off getting it up to 16?

Demoyn wrote:

I think we all agree that perception is a great skill (and anyone who pays attention knows that it's the most used skill in the game; followed closely by diplomacy). However, it's not a class skill for a paladin, wisdom is the only major dump stat for a paladin (you can dump int, but it's a true trade-off), and depending on your party composition sometimes you just WANT to fail perception and sense motive on a paladin. All of these things add up to take all the air out of your argument.

Only remotely. I don't dump stats. Perception and sense motive are important enough in the games I play that a negative modifier on any character is a bad thing. The class skill bonus is good if you want to counteract a dumped Wisdom, but it's much better to just have a positive modifier rather than invest skill ranks in it for those times you have to roll.

OP here. An explanation on my dumping of Wisdom as it's come up quite a bit.

As we all know, Paladins can realistically only "dump" 2 stats. INT and WIS. Like you, I don't dump stats as a rule. Further, I've played enough to know how massively useful perception is.

I was really hoping I'd get a 25 point build to work with so that I wouldn't have to, but the GM gave me 20. With that many points, the only way I could make a character that was battle effective in my designated role as party tank and that was to take a hit to one of those stats. I decided on WIS because of two factors.

1) Fluff: It fit with my character concept which is that she was raised in a monastery. As such, she'd be relatively well read, but sheltered and thus a little ignorant of the ways of the outside world. Higher INT than WIS fits that idea pretty well.

2) Crunch: Simply put, I want some skill points. My build is going to focus on Knowledge (Religion), Intimidate (gained as a class skill via a trait) and Use Magic Device (also gained as a class skill via a trait). Thus, having 3 skill points per level works perfectly.

Now, if you're wondering why I want UMD as a class skill, here's the deal: When I get enough gold, I plan on buying a wand of shield for my character. 750 gp for 50 uses. This will be her "shield" in combat. Basically, she zaps herself for an AC boost, thereby mitigating the use of a two handed weapon.

Hopefully that clears things up. Again, I know I'm going to miss percepting worth a damn, but knowing my group (we've played a long time), I'm pretty sure I'll be able to deal with being the one with their character's head just a little in the clouds.

I mean, if you REALLY want, we can get into some serious game design mathematics, but your average player just really won't follow along. That's not even stopping to consider that people who believe furious focus is useful are far below the "average player", so they DEFINITELY won't follow along.

Hey, Demoyn. OP here. I appreciate you dropping some serious knowledge here and you've given me quite a bit to consider. However, please turn down the sass. I'd like it if this thread were kept civil. Remarks like the one above are just making for some bad air in here.

DrDeth wrote:

Captain K. wrote:

For points which could be spent on Cha.

But he didn't- he spent it on getting Con from 14 to 15, which is meh, and even if he did, the two points gained back would not increase the 16 at all.

Oh, I wouldn't bother with that.

Con 14 is more than enough for a Paladin.

As you were

My plan was to raise CON to 16 at my first level up and leave it there fir the rest of the campaign. Is a 14 CON all a paladin really needs, because if I put it at 14, I'm not going to ever raise it.

I've seen this in the game I'm currently in, where the characters who use a 2-H weapon are just getting whupped in the AC department and really paying the price for this. Doesn't seem the like the damage they do with a 2-H weapon offsets the fight time enough to help with their poor AC.

I'm messing with a Fighter build for an upcoming campaign and want to make 2-H weapon fighter but I'm having the same issues. Beyond the obvious ("invest in +5 armor, rings, nat armor amulet"), what other suggestions do people have for a fighter who keeps getting smacked in the face because he chose to use a 2H weapon?

Curious to see what others have done with this, as I assume its not just a problem I've seen within my gaming group. Thanks!

Don't forget to invest in an Armored Kilt for a cheap 1 ac boost.

What do you mean? At what level would you take improved initiative?

Also, think about instead of starting with a Great Sword to start with a reach weapon (like the Glaive 1d10).

Pure dmg wise the Great Sword is better with 2d6 but the Glaive has reach, and since on low levels you will probably fight against enemies that need to be directly in front of you , you could get a AoO every time they close in without using a 5' step.

The weak point is that you need a square between yourself and your target to attack it with a reach weapon, but you can simply take a 5' step to achieve that.

I think the amount of easy AoO you could get with this will be wroth it.

I'm going to be the party tank, thus I was figuring on needing a weapon that would keep me as close to the enemy as possible (an thus away from my companions). That said, I actually like reach weapons as a concept.

Improved Critical has

Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.

So unless you intent to cheat, or your GM allows it you are stuck with Power Attack.

You could Simply start with a Great Sword and instead of picking Weapon Focus go with Furious or Cleave (which if you have 2 enemies in front of you, which happens a lot at low levels) allows you to double the amount of attacks you can do per turn at full BAB (-2 AC is worth it).

If you can't retrain go Furious level 3 and pick up a Falchion +1 (at least) shortly before you hit level 9. You could also if you have the money (about 8k) get a Keen Falchion +1 before you hit level 9 and get the big crit range without investing a feat.

Ooooppps again. Scratch that taking improved initiative at the start.

Another thought: IF I took a falchion, would I be better served by taking improved critical or power attack at level 1?

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Okay, if I take the Falchion, I have to eat a feat. This means that I won't get Power Attack until Lv. 3 at the earliest. Is that a wise choice? Keep in mind I have to take Fey Foundling at Lv. 1 and I' pretty sold on that feat.

Why do you have to eat a feat? The Falchion is a martial weapon.

Crimeny, you're correct. I'd gotten myself confused. I've built and rebuilt this char a few different ways, including a half-orc version. I think the idea that half-orcs get the ability to use falchions for free with their race put the idea in my head that they were exotic. Ooops. I'm coming off of a long Savage World's campaign and haven't exactly got all my 3.x mojo working.

Scavion wrote:

Leaving out your Strength and Two handed bonuses to damage is a huge mistake in your comparison as it'll make up more than enough in your final damage output, though it may be difficult to see at level one.

In the words of Homer Simpson: Explain how. I'm not doubting you, rather my ability to parse out the math only goes so far. From my vantage point, the two-handed bonuses between greatsword and falchion should be tipped in favor of the greatsword in the same way my basic damage math is tipped in favor of the greatsword. Hence why I called it a wash.

Ah, okay. Now I'm seeing it.

Hmmmmm... Much to consider.

*Starts tapping fingers to his lips*

EDIT-

Okay, if I take the Falchion, I have to eat a feat. This means that I won't get Power Attack until Lv. 3 at the earliest. Is that a wise choice? Keep in mind I have to take Fey Foundling at Lv. 1 and I' pretty sold on that feat.

Leaving out your Strength and Two handed bonuses to damage is a huge mistake in your comparison as it'll make up more than enough in your final damage output, though it may be difficult to see at level one.

In the words of Homer Simpson: Explain how. I'm not doubting you, rather my ability to parse out the math only goes so far. From my vantage point, the two-handed bonuses between greatsword and falchion should be tipped in favor of the greatsword in the same way my basic damage math is tipped in favor of the greatsword. Hence why I called it a wash.

I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype. You lose Channel Energy which is mostly garbage especially on a Paladin for a bazillion smites per day.

Extra Lay on Hands is always better than Toughness for a Paladin. Especially if you have Fey Foundling.

I may go the Oath of Vengence way, though it may require some haggling on my part, or at least hoping my GM doesn't care too much. You see, my whole concept is a character who is an undead hunter taked by her god to wipe out the abominations where ever she finds them. Seems like Oath of vengence would work well for that until you notice there is an Oath Against Undeath that is no where near as cool. I could play a paladin straight and have the undead hatred be fluff, but when I start down the path of Oathbound archetypes, I have to hope my GM doesn't call me out and say, "Hey, you really should be Oath Against Undeath more than you should be Oath of Vengence."

That said, it might be better to apologize than ask for permission. ;-)

Double means you take the dice rolls that you can crite on

18-19-20 (3 dice rolls) and double them 15-16-17 ( 3 dice rolls)

Falchion is because of the 18-20 way better than any other 2H weapon if you plan on taking the critical feats or if you plan on enchanting keen on it.

Oh, gotcha. I was forgetting to count 20 as a distinct number.

Anyways, my answer: Math (over the course of 100 hits, averaged damage, assuming all crits land, corrected for my mistake on crit ranges).

Greatsword with improved critical

(80x7) + (20x14) = 840 Total Damage Output

Falchion

(70x5) + (30x10)= 650 Total Damage Output

This, of course leaves out STR bonuses and two handed bonuses to damage, but those numbers are a wash in this comparison. Whatever the case, even with reduced critical chance, the greatsword outpaces the falchion in over all damage potential. Now yes, more crits with the falchion means more opportunities to use those crit feat enhancements, so I'm no saying absolutely "No" yet to the falchion. But at this point, I am leaning towards greatsword for the above reason (plus I can hang onto a feat and not use it getting the exotic weapon proficiency).

Feel free to set me straight if my math is off. I make no claims to be an expert.

I would sya take a falchion with improved critical instead but thats just me 2d4 with a 15-20 crit range is far better than 2d6 19-20

Before I get into that, wouldn't a falchion with improved critical have a crit range of 16-20, not 15-20? How does the math work there? Doubling 18-20 would be 16-20, right?

I don't know why you would want to focus on Intimidate, it's much more limited than Diplomacy role play wise for a Paladin, but I guess it could be fun. You just gotta be careful with he paladin codex, Paladins shouldn't lie, so everything you threaten somebody with your Paladin would actually be willing to do.

Character concept is why I'm going Intimidate. My character is a paladin in service of the god of Death* and her presence is very unsettling to others. She's quite gothy and dark (even as she's LG). Think Raven from Teen Titans, but cranked up to 11. Also, some one else is going to be the face, and I'm pretty sure some of the other players will be decent at diplomacy as well.

*(Yes, paladins don't normally get to serve TN dieties by the letter of the rules, but my GM is amenable and there's been enough discussion online, including one involving one of the Pathfinder developers, to make it feasible. Mostly a fluff issue anyways)

Hey all. Tis me, he who asked about dodge on a paladin (I've settled on "no" for that one). I have another question: Is Weapon Focus (greatsword in this case) worth taking? Here's my initial stat block at level 1 (20 pt build).

STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16

Feats- Fey Foundling, Power Attack

Base Attack- 4 (+1 class, +3 STR)

Yes, I know that this isn't min/max'ed. Yes, I know I could pick up another 2 attribute points using the Dual Talent alternate race feature. I may in the end go that way, but am leaning heavily against it at this point because I want three skills built up over the course of the build (initimidate, knowledge (religion), use magic device).

Alright, given all of that, should I consider taking weapon focus at some point, and if so, should I do it at level one in place of Power Attack? I'm not really sold on Weapon Focus, but then again, +1 never hurts to have.

Some feats I'm looking at down the road (some I'm more solid about than others:

Furious Focus
Extra Lay On Hands
Greater Mercy
Cornugon Smash (I'm making an intimidate build)
Intimidating Prowess (see above)
Cleave
Great Cleave
Toughness
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
-Step Up Chain
-Improved Crit chain

Half orcs get ferocity, dark vision .....just saying

Oh trust me, I looked long and hard at half orc. Even had an origin story for that scenario. That bonus feat and extra skill point proved too tempting. That said, we don't play until next sunday, so half orc version could still possibly happen...

How about Damerrich (empyreal lord of executions, judiciousness, and resonsibility) worshipped by executioners, judges, morticians and the wrongfully accused; or Vildeis (empyreal lord of devotion, sacrifice, and scars) worshipped by martyrs, the obsessed, paladins, and crusaders? Both of them are Lawful Good, and 'goth'-esque... Damerrich even has access to the Death domain, if that's what you're after?

Good calls.I shall investigate further (pathfinder cosmology is not my strong suit).

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

Paladins can't worship Pharasma and get their paladin powers from her.

Have you considered Sarenrae? She HATES undead.

Pretty sure my GM is going to bend the rules on that count. He sounded amenable to my concept. She'll still be played LG. Just a scary, intimidating kind of LG.

EDIT-

Some support for the idea and how it works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-183305.html

Ah, ok. Didn't realize this was for a home-brew campaign. Well have fun with it

Eh, I wouldn't call it full on homebrew (we are doing the jade regenr path, after all), but my group is a touch loose and wouldn't stand in the way of a good concept. Given one of the developers quotes that paladins don't actually derive their power directly from the gods (see link) and my character concept (that she's one of a kind as a paladin, a kind of trained superweapon by her order), I think having a paladin wbo worships a true neutral god is, at worst, a rubbery bend of the rules and not a snapping break. This is more a fluff than a crunch issue, anyways. If my GM suddenly got uptight, then push comes to shove, I can change her religion.

Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

Paladins can't worship Pharasma and get their paladin powers from her.

Have you considered Sarenrae? She HATES undead.

Pretty sure my GM is going to bend the rules on that count. He sounded amenable to my concept. She'll still be played LG. Just a scary, intimidating kind of LG.

EDIT-

Some support for the idea and how it works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-183305.html

Who does/is your character going to worship when you start playing this character? I've skimmed posts but didn't see anything. I know it doesn't matter, but always like hearing what deities players choose.

One of my paladins worship Shelyn, the other worships Sarenrae.

Death (or Pharasma if you like). My character is going to be a dark, gothy-type who freaks people out by her mere presence. Her face is tattooed to look like a skull. Figured it'd a be a fun image and a fun character to play. She'll be complaining about "conformists" and how "life is pain" as she destroys the undead. ;-)

How about taking the Dangerously Curious magic trait to put UMD on your class list (with 16 Charisma, 1 skill rank, and the trait bonus,that'd give you a reasonable +8 to UMD at level 1) then just buying a wand of shield?

That's a good idea, actually. Having said that, I'm allowed two traits and the two I have already picked out really fit my concept. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

Do what you want. I've just given you one possibility that I can also vouch works. the stat block I presented is what I have used in PFS and a homegame that went mythic. It's not the only one, but certainly one of many. What do you value more? Strength? Or Constitution?

STR, because I'm going to be a damage dealer, power attacking baddies with a big sword. Some CON is handy, though, to keep me in the fight.

A good GM won't go out of their way to deliberately try to kill you all the time :) . Like I said, you can invest in an armored kilt (which can be enchanted separately from armor). And because you are a paladin, I'd imagine that the chances of you being able to benefit from Smite Evil will be pretty high. Focusing on CHA in place of DEX will be more beneficial in my opinion. Have you considered putting ability points from leveling into DEX if it's making you nervous? Your REF save will always be lower than your other saves.. a single point may or may not make a difference. You can always take Lightning Reflexes if you are worried about that particular save too. Save up and make Full-Plate (or Mithral Full-Plate if you are feeling fancy) and make that one of your first purchases. Smite will also bump your AC. Check out the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, haste will help as well.

Anything I mine out of DEX I'd be putting in STR, CON or CHA. A little look at the numbers...

If I started with-

STR- 16 (14 +2 human)
DEX-10
CON-15
INT-10
WIS-8
CHA-16

At Lv. 20 I could have...

STR-18
DEX- 10
CON- 16
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 18

... which does have a nice evenness to it. Hmmmmm....

If you don't like stat dumping, have you considered leaving INT & WIS at 10 and dropping DEX to 10 as well? Those stats aren't quite as vital unless of course you were going to be doing something other than melee combat.

With a 20 point buy (and assuming you are playing as a human) I came up with this. And of course you could move these around if you wanted:

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

I'd consider moving STR and CON at level one. Note this is more of a safe/survivable build. You have lots of good advice from other posts already. I think you are in good hands.

I wasn't sure about knocking DEX from 12 to 10 just because that 12 gives me a +1 to AC and REF saves. Being without a shield, I was trying to get all the AC I could. I know that in the end it's all about what the GM throws at me, but do I have enough AC (figure I'll start with scale mail) to be able to eat the DEX and put it in CON a'la the stat block above? Is losing that +1 to REF generally worth it?

Oh, and I can kind of live with an 8 WIS. I've a trait that will give me a +1 to my will saves and it fits the concept I have of someone who was raised in a monastery and is thus not super-savvy with the ways of the world.

How are you allocating your stats, actually? With 20 point buy and a THD weapon i'd probably do something like:

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16

or, for a greater disparity (I don't like dumping stats this hard though):

STR 19
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 7
CHA 16

Either way, you don't really have a lot of room for 13 DEX.

My current array (presuming I DON'T bump DEX to 13)

STR- 17
DEX- 12
CON- 13
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16

Like you I hate dumping, plus a low INT doesn't really fit my character concept. I also wonder if I should bump STR down to 16 in order to bump CON to 14 at level 1.

Also, whil I have everyone's attention: Essential paladin skills? I was thinking heal, know(religion) and intimidate (going for a scary Death paladin. LG, but in service to the God of Death. Undead destroyer type character). I'm going to be using a trait that gives me intimidate as a class skill.

Hey all, a question: I'm building a greatsword weilding human paladin. 20point build. Is it worth it for me to put 13 into Dex and take dodge as a feat in order to boost my AC a bit? If I did so, I may or may not do it the first level, but it'd be done by 3rd. I should note that I may end up being the sole "heavy" in my group as the other players are all looking at rouges and rangers and wizards and such.