If you do not wish to create a new thread, at least repost the list you're inquiring about.
Speaking as someone who's had multiple FAQs answered, you're more likely to get something errata'd or FAQ'd if you do the leg work.
The Devs can't read your mind.
So, I should repost the list that the developers ASKED ANOTHER PERSON TO CREATE IN THIS VERY THREAD... They don't need to read my mind, they just need to read this thread. It's all here. In THIS thread, except for the full list which should have been emailed to them by the person they asked to do so.
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So, I should repost the list that the developers ASKED ANOTHER PERSON TO CREATE IN THIS VERY THREAD... They don't need to read my mind, they just need to read this thread. It's all here. In THIS thread, except for the full list which should have been emailed to them by the person they asked to do so.If you do not wish to create a new thread, at least repost the list you're inquiring about.
Speaking as someone who's had multiple FAQs answered, you're more likely to get something errata'd or FAQ'd if you do the leg work.
The Devs can't read your mind.
Then maybe a link to the post with the list, then? With over 200 posts, it is hard for someone to find a specific post in the thread without a hint...
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@AbsolutGrndZer0: Nefreet didn't understand your question at first and he was asking you to clarify it. Likewise, it didn't make a lot of sense to me at first. And your responses were rather unfriendly, which doesn't help your case.
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That said, I do think this FAQ is rather awkward. I was going to say that this creates problems with Unsanctioned Knowledge, but I just noticed that apparently UK has been reworded to get rid of that problem.
UK used to say "pick these spells from these classes, and now you know them as a paladin". It's been changed to "pick these spells from these classes and add them to your paladin spell list".
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I'm not really satisfied with the FAQ though. It rather awkwardly sidesteps the issues we suspect it was created to solve.
- Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane): you add a sorcerer spell to "your list of spells known". If you're getting this ability from a feat, which list of spells known would that be? The feat doesn't know what classes you have. If you're a dual-classed oracle/bloodrager, which spell list would it be added to?
The FAQ dodges this by not actually telling you which spell list, just by saying "just because you know the spell doesn't mean you can cast it", which is rather counterintuitive.
- Cracked Orange Prism Ioun Stone: adds one spell to your list of spells known/prepared. Again, which list? Which spells are eligible? Same FAQ sidestep, except it doesn't tell you what happens to a wizard who gains Create Water as a prepared spell. Presumably that's not supposed to happen, but the FAQ doesn't help.
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Yeah, didn't know about this FAQ, and now that I do, I don't care for it. Although for me that's personal preference; it's making casters weaker (in a confusing way), but whatever, it's not destroying a martial option (weapon cords, CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANE WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!), and any FAQ that doesn't hurt martials is at least okay in my book.
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I think the devs assumed you would not to go outside of your natural class list because they gave no mention of how to convert spells over. However some people thought that the word "any", while not printed, was valid.
I think the intent is clear, even if the RAW is not. The ability is not stopping you from choosing a spell you can't use, but you still can't use it. I think it would be better if the FAQ just flat out said something like "you are limited to your class list for choosing new spells unless otherwise stated"<======Not the exact verbage I would use, but I think it is close enough for the purpose of intent.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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This is the old 3.5 "Extra Spell" problem. It said "You learn one additional spell [what level verbage]" It didn't say "that is on your class list" but it was in a 3.5 FAQ to to make that clear you couldn't add one that wasn't already on your list.
They don't want to burn the words to say "Must already be on your class spell list" for every ability that adds spells and power gamer "RAW" folk assume if it says "add a spell" and doesn't limit, it is unlimited.
So this FAQ is here to stay, and it basically makes it clear the default is "on your spell list" if not already specified. They will reword all abilities that are intended to add spells from other lists to your spell list, so nothing changes other than making how the rules work more known and understood.
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I think the ioun stone is just poorly worded. The FAQ is providing a (bad) general solution to a specific problem.
"You add one spell to your spells known or prepared" - of what class?!
If a non-class ability (like a feat, or a magic item) is going to give you a spell known, it should specify exactly what class is going to be knowing an extra spell. Or let you choose one class to gain it. But at least there should be no doubt what class benefits.
Normally you can only get to know a spell if it's on your class list. If a power specifically adds a spell to your list of spells known (for some class), then it should also add it that class' spell list. Since you can only know a spell if it's on your class list, apparently whatever added it to your spells known also added it to your class list.
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So basically, powers should be a bit more discriminating on where they get spells and who they hand them to. But it's really ridiculous that you can legally get to know a spell that you can't then use.
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The Eldritch Heritage trick could be paved over by a slight rephrasing of the Arcane Bloodline;
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
to:
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of sorcerer spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
... and an oracle has no use for sorcerer spells known, so now the loophole is plugged.
That is, if you really feel such a need to plug the loophole. Personally I think it's cute and should be allowed. You're sinking three feats into this.
I still don't understand how this "works". Could be someone cast Invisibility on the Elephant in the room (or I'm just very blind), but I've been trying to understand the relationship between Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) and Paragon Surge, and Expanded Arcana, and I got nothing.
A Half-Elf Oracle can already choose Paragon Surge as a 3rd level spell without any feats needed, so the problem can't be giving an Oracle access to that spell.
An Oracle can already choose Expanded Aracana, so the problem can't be with that feat (it specifically says you have to choose a spell from your list).
If an Oracle chooses Paragon Surge using Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), this FAQ still doesn't prevent them from casting it (since it is on the Sorcerer list, thus valid to choose, and also on the Oracle list, thus valid to cast according to the FAQ).
So it seems the only thing the FAQ is saying is "An Oracle can't choose a spell that isn't already on their list with Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) if they want to cast it." Which doesn't seem that outlandish to me. There are still plenty of spells that are on both lists that prevent the feat from being "worthless".
Personally, I think that if someone wanted to spend three feats over the course of 11 levels in order to add a 4th level or lower spell that they normally wouldn't be able to cast, (and then a 6th or lower at 15th, and an 8th or lower at 19th) I would be fine with that.
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An unfortunate reality is that small wording tweaks could fix a LOT of things! However, we are more likely to see sweeping ruling in FAQs. It's ridiculous, but it's what Paizo seems intent on doing. My guess is they're concerned to the point of paranoia over page counts. That's a new Holy Grail.The problem is that it's small wording tweaks in lots of different places along with a policy of only doing errata when a new printing comes out, which means if you fix it that way, you're probably dealing with it for years, if not indefinitely in some cases.
The problem is that a small wording tweaks don't resolve all the conflicts but only the one where you do the wording tweak.
The FAQ instead resolve several conflicts at once and generate way less.It give a clear general ruling for future abilities: "If you want to add spell to a class from a list outside of its own you need to specify that they can add them to their spell list."
It is a very important guideline for future writers of new abilities.
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While probably (read definitely) excessive.
Assume a bard takes Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane.
Let's say he picks "See Invisibility" as his spell. This is a Sorceror/Wizard 2 but also bard 3.
By my understaning he picks a sorceror spell but since it is ALSO on his list he should now be able to cast "See Invisibility" as a second level spell instead of third.
Is this correct?
No, the spell on his list is "See Invisibility, spell level 3, bard spell". Not "See Invisibility, spell level 2, sorcerer/wizard spell", nor "See Invisibility, spell level 2, summoner spell" or any other version of it.
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but it looks like this FAQ screws some bloodlines over. The bloodline spells are added to spells known but not the class list.
Take the Celestial Bloodline. Bless and Flame Strike are useless, because they aren't added to the Sorerer's class list of spells.
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but it looks like this FAQ screws some bloodlines over. The bloodline spells are added to spells known but not the class list.
Take the Celestial Bloodline. Bless and Flame Strike are useless, because they aren't added to the Sorerer's class list of spells.
Did you even read the FAQ?
New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
It even specifically mentions bloodlines for sorcerers. How did you miss that?
Other than the fact it's been weeks since I've even bothered to look at the "clarification" that isn't needed with the Paragon Surge faq.
But hey, if you spend 3 feats to add spells to your spells known, why should you be able to cast them?
When Ultimate Magic came out it introduced the Eldritch Heritage feats.
You need Skill Focus to take Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) to qualify for Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) at 11th level.
IEH(Arcane) lets you take the lv9 bloodline power(new arcana in this case) to add 1 sorcerer/wizard spell to your list of spells known, then another at levels 15 and 19.
So, for 3 feats and over 19 levels, spontaneous casters could add 3 sorcerer/wizards spells to their list of spells know. That's a lot of investment.
The abuse started when Paragon Surge came out, and people would only take Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage, then through repeated castings of Paragon Surge(to get Improved EH) be able to add "any" Sorc/Wiz spell to their spells known for brief periods of time, stating they got to chose a new spell each time they cast Paragon Surge.
The new FAQ for Paragon Surge stops this abuse.
When Ultimate Magic came out it introduced the Eldritch Heritage feats.
You need Skill Focus to take Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) to qualify for Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) at 11th level.
IEH(Arcane) lets you take the lv9 bloodline power(new arcana in this case) to add 1 sorcerer/wizard spell to your list of spells known, then another at levels 15 and 19.
So, for 3 feats and over 19 levels, spontaneous casters could add 3 sorcerer/wizards spells to their list of spells know. That's a lot of investment.
The abuse started when Paragon Surge came out, and people would only take Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage, then through repeated castings of Paragon Surge(to get Improved EH) be able to add "any" Sorc/Wiz spell to their spells known for brief periods of time, stating they got to chose a new spell each time they cast Paragon Surge.
The new FAQ for Paragon Surge stops this abuse.
Being able to change *which* 3 spells you hijack only once a day is while a big hit to the power of the old Paragon Surge -> Improved Eldritch Heritage, it's not exactly a deal breaker. For starters, it's really only a 2 feat investment, since the third is covered by Paragon Surge. And being able to mug any 3 spells at a moment's notice is a huge power boost to Oracles. So if it wasn't for this new FAQ, the combo would still be one of the strongest things in Pathfinder for Oracles at least.
That being said this FAQ has a lot of consequences, that I'm not convinced were fully thought out. Adding something to "spells known" was language that was used a lot of times to allow you to cast those spells, so it's very bizarre to say "No that language only works if it comes from a class feature." Sure it stops the Paragon Surge -> IEH trick for good, but I don't like how the words are being twisted just to remove one unwanted interaction. Unless free off-list 0th level spells via cracked Orange Prism Ioun Stones was really a huge issue and I somehow missed it.
And, as I pointed out, the abuse you mentioned only came about with Paragon Surge. 3 spells for 3 feats over 19 levels is fine.
And, as I pointed out, the abuse you mentioned only came about with Paragon Surge. 3 spells for 3 feats over 19 levels is fine.
Oh I agree, I'm just explaining (and again, it's really only 2 feats). It especially seems silly since Shaman can mug from lots of spell lists and Spell Sage Wizards can mug from practically every spell list.
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Honestly? This FAQ right here is why I can never play nor GM for PFS. Too many FAQs that I don't agree with and that I would blatantly ignore at tables I ran. Crane Wing nerf? Yeah know, we use original Crane Wing, this FAQ? Ignored. Before the Monk 'clarification' was changed, that was another thing I ignored as well.
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Honestly? This FAQ right here is why I can never play nor GM for PFS. Too many FAQs that I don't agree with and that I would blatantly ignore at tables I ran. Crane Wing nerf? Yeah know, we use original Crane Wing, this FAQ? Ignored. Before the Monk 'clarification' was changed, that was another thing I ignored as well.
It was the "Bonuses that add a stat to something totally have that stat's type." FAQ for me. The types of bonuses are clearly listed and "stat" has never been one of them. The whole point of untyped bonuses in the first place is that they stack with other untyped bonuses. I just... the logic... it... gah.
Honestly? This FAQ right here is why I can never play nor GM for PFS. Too many FAQs that I don't agree with and that I would blatantly ignore at tables I ran. Crane Wing nerf? Yeah know, we use original Crane Wing, this FAQ? Ignored. Before the Monk 'clarification' was changed, that was another thing I ignored as well.It was the "Bonuses that add a stat to something totally have that stat's type." FAQ for me. The types of bonuses are clearly listed and "stat" has never been one of them. The whole point of untyped bonuses in the first place is that they stack with other untyped bonuses. I just... the logic... it... gah.
That one did it for a lot of people. The mental gymnastics you have to go through to get it to be a type but not a type is crazy. Even some people that didn't want them to stack where left scratching their heads over the explanation...
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What is it about this FAQ that goes against the rules? This concept of things being restricted to spells the class already has access is something that both WotC and Paizo considered default.
I never understood why so many could look at an ability and jump to that ability adding spells form other classes? It doesn't cover what level the spell will be in the new class.
In the case of New Arcana(Arcane Bloodline), you'd simply add the spell to the level you took it from. If you can't cast spells of that level, you probably shouldn't have taken it.