New FAQ: New Spells Known


Rules Questions

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Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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FAQ

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.


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I'm a little confused by the this FAQ. Could you give an example of what is not allowed?

Is the idea that bloodline spells can only be cast from sorcerer spell slots? And similar abilities behaving similarly?


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I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what that question is asking too.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joe loves Rules wrote:

I'm a little confused by the this FAQ. Could you give an example of what is not allowed?

Is the idea that bloodline spells can only be cast from sorcerer spell slots? And similar abilities behaving similarly?

I Believe this in particular applies to shenanigans such as Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) to add sorcerer spells to an oracle's spells known.


MusicAddict wrote:
Joe loves Rules wrote:

I'm a little confused by the this FAQ. Could you give an example of what is not allowed?

Is the idea that bloodline spells can only be cast from sorcerer spell slots? And similar abilities behaving similarly?

I Believe this in particular applies to shenanigans such as Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) to add sorcerer spells to an oracle's spells known.

^ This. It's good to know.


It sounds like somone argued for using sorc bloodlibe spells or similar to add the spells to a different class.


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But isn't that the point of the Feat when it's used that way? Why make a broad FAQ for a minor use?

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

Take a look at Unsanctioned Knowledge:

Unsanctioned Knowledge wrote:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.

This feat specifically adds spells to the paladin spell list.

But let's say for the moment that paladin was spontaneous and had a list of spells known. If we changed Unsanctioned Knowledge as well so it read

Unsanctioned Knowledge wrote:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spells known as paladin spells of the same level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.

Then you would need to pick spells from those lists that were also on the paladin spell list if you wanted to cast them. It would need to also state that they were added to the paladin spell list, like the original does.

As in the case of Unsanctioned Knowledge (and Samsaran's Mystic Past Life), all instances of intentional additions to a class's spell list should specifically indicate that the spells are added to the class's spell list.


Ohhhh. I get it now. Thanks! :)


This is a sad day for oracles but it was needed. I wonder if this suggests the wandering lore spirit ability for the shamans is being redone. Removing free access to the wizard list for one class one month and then giving it to another the next would send rather mixed messages.


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So, since Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) doesn't add the spells to your class list, it's absolutely useless for anyone not already using the Sorcerer/Wizard list now?

Ths also sounds like another "FAQ" nerf to Paragon Surge...

andreww wrote:
This is a sad day for oracles but it was needed. I wonder if this suggests the wandering lore spirit ability for the shamans is being redone. Removing free access to the wizard list for one class one month and then giving it to another the next would send rather mixed messages.

Funny you mention the shaman. There's been theories that certain FAQs are being made so the new classes "look better". Not sure I believe that, but some people do.


No, these FAQs are pretty clearly to plug up some SUV sized holes in the rules that should have been plugged LOOONG ago.

Next up: Simulacrum?


Also maybe Scrying and Planar Binding.


There are abilities that allow you to take a spell known and turn it into a SLA, I would presume that one could still add spells to their spells known and then be able to apply them for these abilities even if they do not have spell slots to cast these spells known in, because they are still spells known.

Or am I making things too complicated?


master_marshmallow wrote:

There are abilities that allow you to take a spell known and turn it into a SLA, I would presume that one could still add spells to their spells known and then be able to apply them for these abilities even if they do not have spell slots to cast these spells known in, because they are still spells known.

Or am I making things too complicated?

Give an example.


Hey, on the plus side this means my Oracle has a spare feat when he hits level 11 as he no longer needs to grab Eldritch Heritage and I can retrain out of Skill Focus. I might actually be able to fit in Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration before he retires.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Rynjin wrote:

No, these FAQs are pretty clearly to plug up some SUV sized holes in the rules that should have been plugged LOOONG ago.

Next up: Simulacrum?

In my opinion, simulacrum deserves an entire blog post filled with tips and clarifications, like when Jason did that super-helpful poison blog.


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A Simulacrum template would be a really useful way to go about things....just saying.


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I am glad to see that FAQ's are starting again.. :)


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Hm, I'm a bit confused. So a Bard (Magician) can now only use expanded repertoire to select spells already on the bard spell list? It only says you add the spell to your spells known, not your spell list.

PRD wrote:

Expanded Repertoire (Ex): At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, a magician can add one spell to his spells known from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. The spell must be of a level he can cast. This ability replaces versatile performance.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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Rhatahema wrote:

Hm, I'm a bit confused. So a Bard (Magician) can now only use expanded repertoire to select spells already on the bard spell list? It only says you add the spell to your spells known, not your spell list.

PRD wrote:

Expanded Repertoire (Ex): At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, a magician can add one spell to his spells known from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. The spell must be of a level he can cast. This ability replaces versatile performance.

This class feature is clearly designed to be an exception to this new FAQ. It still works, adding the spell to your list of spells known and spell list. It will need an FAQ to resolve that.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Paizo Employee Designer

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Rhatahema wrote:

Hm, I'm a bit confused. So a Bard (Magician) can now only use expanded repertoire to select spells already on the bard spell list? It only says you add the spell to your spells known, not your spell list.

PRD wrote:

Expanded Repertoire (Ex): At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, a magician can add one spell to his spells known from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. The spell must be of a level he can cast. This ability replaces versatile performance.

This class feature is clearly designed to be an exception to this new FAQ. It still works, adding the spell to your list of spells known and spell list. It will need an FAQ to resolve that.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

It should be handled by the current FAQ, actually--since it is a class feature, it gets an exemption from the "unless they are added by a class feature of that same class."


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Uhm, A FAQ for a FAQ does not seems like good business.

Instead of making a general rule, can you just say what specific options are disallowed?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:

Uhm, A FAQ for a FAQ does not seems like good business.

Instead of making a general rule, can you just say what specific options are disallowed?

As Mark pointed out in the post above yours, an "faq for an faq" is not actually necessary.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Nicos wrote:

Uhm, A FAQ for a FAQ does not seems like good business.

Instead of making a general rule, can you just say what specific options are disallowed?

The current wording covers Magician. But if you guys on the forum want to help us out even more, if you find anything that is not a class feature, and it is affected by this FAQ but seems like it now does nothing, consolidate all of those here in this thread. I'm not aware of any such ability right now. I promise I will look at anything you can find and bring them up to everyone to consider.


Rhatahema wrote:

Hm, I'm a bit confused. So a Bard (Magician) can now only use expanded repertoire to select spells already on the bard spell list? It only says you add the spell to your spells known, not your spell list.

PRD wrote:

Expanded Repertoire (Ex): At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, a magician can add one spell to his spells known from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. The spell must be of a level he can cast. This ability replaces versatile performance.

Expanded Repertiore is a class feature so it adds to the spell list and the spells known.

The ability that started this FAQ is not a class feature do it does not automatically add a spell known to the class spell list.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Nicos wrote:

Uhm, A FAQ for a FAQ does not seems like good business.

Instead of making a general rule, can you just say what specific options are disallowed?

The current wording covers Magician. But if you guys on the forum want to help us out even more, if you find anything that is not a class feature, and it is affected by this FAQ but seems like it now does nothing, consolidate all of those here in this thread. I'm not aware of any such ability right now. I promise I will look at anything you can find and bring them up to everyone to consider.

I think it would be great if the text of the FAQ have a couple of example of abilities that are ok and abilities that are now disallowed.


So are spells class features then? Does Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) still work(as originally intended, I'm guessing) for non-Sorcerers if they used Paragon Surge?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Nicos wrote:

Uhm, A FAQ for a FAQ does not seems like good business.

Instead of making a general rule, can you just say what specific options are disallowed?

The current wording covers Magician. But if you guys on the forum want to help us out even more, if you find anything that is not a class feature, and it is affected by this FAQ but seems like it now does nothing, consolidate all of those here in this thread. I'm not aware of any such ability right now. I promise I will look at anything you can find and bring them up to everyone to consider.

I just did a search in the PRD and nothing else came up.

The search parameter was "add spells known" and "add spell" so those words would appear in anything that came up.


Veiled illusionist does add spells known but shouldn't be affected by the FAQ as it is from a class effect.


Azten wrote:
So are spells class features then? Does Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) still work(as originally intended, I'm guessing) for non-Sorcerers if they used Paragon Surge?

Spells are class features and I never thought arcane heritage was intended to give spells. It reads as giving you the bloodline powers, not the spells.

Quote:
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

If you look at the sorcerer chart the bloodline power and the bloodline spells are two different things.


wraithstrike wrote:
Spells are class features and I never thought arcane heritage was intended to give spells. It reads as giving you the bloodline powers, not the spells.

Yes it gives you the power but the Arcane Bloodline power New Arcana, gained at level 9, adds up to 3 new spells to your list of spells known. They are not bloodline spells, they are spells gained from a bloodline power.


Improved Eldritch Heritage gives you the choice of the 3rd or 9th level bloodline power, and the 9th power for the Arcane Bloodline does give you spells known.

25 second ninja'd.

Paizo Employee Designer

Azten wrote:
So are spells class features then? Does Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) still work(as originally intended, I'm guessing) for non-Sorcerers if they used Paragon Surge?

Spells, feats, skills, traits, and several other rules elements are not class features (although Spellcasting is a class feature). Also, as far as I know after the PDT chat leading up to this FAQ, Improved Eldritch Heritage was never intended to add off-list spells to non-sorcerers. It was a consequence of a new feat that interacted with a rules element written before the feat existed leading to all sorts of potential confusion since it wasn't clear what should happen with it. For instance, I remember when the feat first came out, there was even one interpretation out there of IEH(A) that you added the spell to your sorcerer spell list for your phantom sorcerer level equal to character level - 2, for instance, and could thus never cast it; and that also wasn't really contradicted by the text either. And if it doesn't add to the phantom sorcerer spells known, to which class does it add the spells for a bard/oracle multiclass? Both of them? Do you need to be high enough level in both classes to cast the new spell? This FAQ hopefully clears things up as to the intended interaction in such cases, but if there's any confusion, I'll be happy to clarify as I can.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Nicos wrote:

Uhm, A FAQ for a FAQ does not seems like good business.

Instead of making a general rule, can you just say what specific options are disallowed?

The current wording covers Magician. But if you guys on the forum want to help us out even more, if you find anything that is not a class feature, and it is affected by this FAQ but seems like it now does nothing, consolidate all of those here in this thread. I'm not aware of any such ability right now. I promise I will look at anything you can find and bring them up to everyone to consider.

Ah, I see. Seems obvious now, my head was just spinning. The question and first sentence of the answer are pretty dense. But more so, the FAQ doesn't call out an example of what doesn't work, which seems important since the FAQ is directly addressing those examples.


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I think the FAQ ruling affects the Rage Prophet PRC

"At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a rage prophet learns an additional spell from his spirit guide. These spells are in addition to those listed in Table: Oracle Spells Known. Like spells from an oracle’s mystery, the rage prophet cannot exchange these spells for different spells at higher levels. The rage prophet must be able to cast oracle spells of the listed level to learn one of these spells from his spirit guide. The rage prophet treats the spell as an oracle spell of the listed level. The possible spells are arcane eye (4th), augury (2nd), divination (4th), dream (5th), find the path (6th), helping hand (3rd), see invisibility (2nd), shadow walk (6th), speak with dead (3rd), spectral hand (2nd), spiritual weapon (2nd), unseen servant (1st), vision (7th), and whispering wind (2nd)."

Note that it never uses the term "spell list". It also doesn't fall under the category of a class modifying its own spells known, since the Rage Prophet PRC modifies the Oracle list. Most of the spells are already on the Oracle list, but Spectral Hand isn't.

There could be other PRCs out there that have similar problems.


Let me clarify a bit too. I messed up a bit and only talked about IEH(Arcane). The Heritage feats were meant to give you bloodline powers even if you weren't a Sorcerer.

With this FAQ, you seemed to be picking on just one use of it. Now, it might just seem that way because the only other feat I know off to add spells to a list is Unsanctioned Knowledge, but if the only other thing is that feat, why not just FAQ/errata IEH(Arcane) instead?


Maybe it also affects Bloatmages and their capstone to gain Bloodlines? Would a bard/bloatmage no longer gain new spells known, unless they were already on the Bard list?

Paizo Employee Designer

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nthrun5000--The list you're beginning to compile here is awesome. Thanks!


Color me dense but how does the mincing of 'adding to your spells known' differ from 'adding to your class' spell list' other than some interaction with spell completion items? Is that the only thing it's meant to address? If there's some other reason I'm just not seeing it.

Silver Crusade

Buri wrote:
Color me dense but how does the mincing of 'adding to your spells known' differ from 'adding to your class' spell list' other than some interaction with spell completion items? Is that the only thing it's meant to address? If there's some other reason I'm just not seeing it.
PDT wrote:

If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No.

Liberty's Edge

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Buri wrote:
Color me dense but how does the mincing of 'adding to your spells known' differ from 'adding to your class' spell list' other than some interaction with spell completion items? Is that the only thing it's meant to address? If there's some other reason I'm just not seeing it.

Think spontaneous casters. Spells Known is a small subset of Spell List.

You are not the only person who had to read the FAQ a couple times, though.


Joe M. wrote:
Buri wrote:
Color me dense but how does the mincing of 'adding to your spells known' differ from 'adding to your class' spell list' other than some interaction with spell completion items? Is that the only thing it's meant to address? If there's some other reason I'm just not seeing it.
PDT wrote:

If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No.

Aha! Thanks.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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I think this FAQ covers these items:

  • Cracked Orange Ioun stone {SoS}: adds one cantrip or orison ... to his list of spells known or spells prepared.
  • Dreamed Secrets {ISG}: these spells are added to your spells known for 24 hours
  • Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) mentioned above

I suspect the unintended behavior of Improved Eldritch Heritage is the source of this FAQ. But I also think the use of the cracked orange ioun stones could also be at fault.


andreww wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Spells are class features and I never thought arcane heritage was intended to give spells. It reads as giving you the bloodline powers, not the spells.
Yes it gives you the power but the Arcane Bloodline power New Arcana, gained at level 9, adds up to 3 new spells to your list of spells known. They are not bloodline spells, they are spells gained from a bloodline power.

Ok. Somehow I missed that. I even checked before I made that last post.


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After a quick search, I believe as written, the following abilities are all rendered dysfunctional by this FAQ.

-Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane for all-non sorcerers. (Adds to spells known, but not spell list.)
-Cracked Orange Ioun Stone for any out of class spells. (Adds to spells known, but not spell list.)

-Dreamed Secrets Feat (Adds to spells known, but not spell list.)
-Daivrat's Spell Fetch (Cast as if spell was known, but does not add to class spell list.)
-Rovagug's Third Evangelist Boon, Destroyer's Blessing (Cast as if spell were known, but does not add to class spell list.)

Of course, it's obvious what the intent of these last three abilities are: to allow you to cast these spells from off of your spell list. And considering the low power of the cracked orange ioun stone, this feels like another power level errata disguised as an FAQ, this one directed primarily at Improved Eldritch Heritage: New Arcana, especially seeing that Paizo has being writing abilities in this manner as recently as Inner Sea Gods. Now this FAQ breaks a few other things along the way. There's no doubt improved eldritch heritage was amazingly powerful when combined with paragon surge, but I have to question, given the recent paragon surge nerf to a far more reasonable level if it was really necessary to get rid of a three feat chain that gave oracles, bards and inquisitors a few extra options.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Stark_ wrote:

After a quick search, I believe as written, the following abilities are all rendered dysfunctional by this FAQ.

-Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane for all-non sorcerers. (Adds to spells known, but not spell list.)

...
And considering the low power of the cracked orange ioun stone, this feels like another power level errata disguised as an FAQ, this one directed primarily at Improved Eldritch Heritage: New Arcana, especially seeing that Paizo has being writing abilities in this manner as recently as Inner Sea Gods.
...

It work for bards too and any future arcana spontaneous spellcasting class. They only need to have the same spell at the same level.

To me it sound as: too many ways to add spell to the spell know have been added in the years, several of them in conflict or stackable. Let's try to put that in order.


Add Urgathoa's 2nd Evangelist boon, Death Knowledge (spell added to known only)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

Alright, so I have a question.

People in this thread have stated that the Cracked Orange Prism Ioun Stone can no longer help a Sorcerer cast Orisons like Create Water, because it's adding a "spell known" without adding it to their "spell list".

What about prepared casters?

Cracked Orange Prism Ioun Stone wrote:
Wearer adds one cantrip or orison (determined when the stone is created) to his list of spells known or spells prepared.

My Witch uses one of these Ioun Stones to add Create Water to his cantrips prepared. Does this no longer work? Or was this just a nerf to spontaneous casters?


Baku Shadescar wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

Alright, so I have a question.

People in this thread have stated that the Cracked Orange Prism Ioun Stone can no longer help a Sorcerer cast Orisons like Create Water, because it's adding a "spell known" without adding it to their "spell list".

What about prepared casters?

Cracked Orange Prism Ioun Stone wrote:
Wearer adds one cantrip or orison (determined when the stone is created) to his list of spells known or spells prepared.
My Witch uses one of these Ioun Stones to add Create Water to his cantrips prepared. Does this no longer work? Or was this just a nerf to spontaneous casters?

Most likely the items mentioned will be fixed to add to the spell known and to the class list.

edit: I think the intent was to add a spell that was already on your class list, not any spell from any class so it should not affect the sorcerer or oracle in a negative manner.

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