I'd prefer to play the scenario as it was before.
Also on topic, since it has not been asked yet. How does this interact with a person who takes an Arcane Bonded item via Eldritch Heritage?
In the Arcane bloodline it says that the bonded item, once per day lets you cast one of your spells known.Then with way the FAQ is written it says you can not use a spell slot to power a spell not on your spell list. However it also does not explicitly disallow you from adding the spell known, after all you could get bestow curse or daylight and use either as an Oracle since it is on your list. It is just that you can not actually power the spell with one of your spell slots.
So hypothetically speaking is the Arcane Bonded item considered to be using a spell slot, or is there an admittedly circuitous method to get a spell once per day from a different list?
I realize this might be a slight stretch of a reading, or splitting hairs, but was curious.
If we went by the reading of the arcane bonded item and spells known that they key off your otherwise-null sorcerer spells known (which is as valid as any, since otherwise it isn't clear which spells known list to use for a multiclassed character), then it may be the case that the bonded item does nothing for a non-sorcerer until gaining those extra spells, in which case they may actually be the only ones the bonded item can cast at all, though probably not due to the whole difference between 0 and null (aka --). Of course, there's a lot of 'may's in there. This whole combination was always deep in the land of GM discretion to begin with, and it seems the FAQ has at least ruled definitively on most of it.
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the faq does seem pretty stinky...
the more i read the more i agree that Paragon Surge deserved the nerf bat, but all this spell list mumbojumbo is a load of bs.
if you honestly take the SkillFocus+EH+IEH feat chain bully for you. you win a couple of spells. Nerf paragon surge so that you can't use IEH to grab spells. problem fixed.
my beef always had been with paragon surge it stunk of cheese hot off the presses.
Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) is a Huge feat investment and backstory.
He didn't say they weren't useful, just that it was an investment. Don't you want investments you make to pay off?
I think I have another corner case.
A bard takes dragon disciple levels. Does he get dragon bloodline bonus spells added to his base class spell list as he gets appropriate slots because Blood of Dragons is a Dragon Disciple class feature or is he denied them because it gives him access to the draconic bloodline, which is a sorcerer class feature, or is he denied them because he has a bard list and a different class (namely dragon disciple) is adding the spells known?
...This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
You don't get the bonus spells unless you are a sorcerer, period. And you have to be a high enough level sorcerer to cast spells of that slot level.
(Unless of course I've missed some rule somewhere, been a really long time since I've seen a sorcerer used, and never seen a dragon disciple, so I'm not on the up and up of mechanics related to this PrC).
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Actually...
If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.
If you weren't a sorcerer, then your DD level becomes your Sorcerer levels.
Bloodline powers are seperate from the bonus spells from your bloodline. Dragon Disciple gives everyone bloodline powers, but only sorcerers gain the bonus spells.
Indeed, it's the same as if you took the Eldritch Heritage feats. You gain the bloodline powers, but not the bloodline spells.
Actually...
If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.If you weren't a sorcerer, then your DD level becomes your Sorcerer levels.
For purposes of what bloodline powers he acquires, and uses per day, damage, DC, etc that may be based on sorcerer level. He does not get sorcerer spell slots, bonus feats, or anything else related to actually being a sorcerer.
Dang, mussed the "bloodline powers" part. Carry on.
I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.
I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.
Nope. Need an FAQ. Fo' serious. >.>
I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.
Except it's a racial feature that us for a class. If it was from the class, it wouldn't make sense that only Elves/Aasimars can boost their Oracle levels for a revelation.
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I just made a character that is a bard to go into Dragon Diciple. It fit the character more for a bard and the requirements do not mention the class sorcerer (just spontanious arcane spell use). Does the requirements for DD need changed or is there something missing? Shouldn't DD give the extra spells to the class that the character entered into it with, just as they do with other PrC's?
Except it's a racial feature that us for a class. If it was from the class, it wouldn't make sense that only Elves/Aasimars can boost their Oracle levels for a revelation.I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.
It's both a race and class feature. A elven paladin cannot take the oracle spell. A human oracle also cannot take it.
If you want to insist it is only a racial feature, then the conclusion is that that choice doesn't actually do anything at all for you in light of this FAQ.
Given two possible outcomes, one useless, one that makes perfect sense... :)
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So using Bard for the DD PrC is a sub-optimal way to go. Thing is, I didn't want a third sorcerer.
A DD Bard can be a terrifying opponent if in melee. I made one as a possible BBEG to replace the BBEG in Curse of the Crimson Throne (I made a few different builds as possible choices for the replacement) and the DD Bard was a really scary opponent. Especially if the DD Bard uses greater bladed dash and then quickens another greater bladed dash via a rod. With the right positioning, you can deal some major hurt to the party.
No, what you want is DD/Bloodrager!
So using Bard for the DD PrC is a sub-optimal way to go. Thing is, I didn't want a third sorcerer.
Is this for PFS? If not I would talk to my DM about the spell casting progression. Bards are 2/3 casters and dragon disciple is 2/3 caster, it seems ok to let the bard progress through DD at his full bard rate. Either that or also progress the inspire ability at 2/3 through DD. Both options seem very reasonable and I would allow either for a PC in my games.
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Take a look at Unsanctioned Knowledge:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.This feat specifically adds spells to the paladin spell list.
But let's say for the moment that paladin was spontaneous and had a list of spells known. If we changed Unsanctioned Knowledge as well so it read
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spells known as paladin spells of the same level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.Then you would need to pick spells from those lists that were also on the paladin spell list if you wanted to cast them. It would need to also state that they were added to the paladin spell list, like the original does.
As in the case of Unsanctioned Knowledge (and Samsaran's Mystic Past Life), all instances of intentional additions to a class's spell list should specifically indicate that the spells are added to the class's spell list.
The problem here is that both of these examples reference the paladin spell list -- and the paladin is not a spontaneous caster. I have seen numerous citations on these messageborads of cases of spells from other classes being added to a spontaneous caster's list of spells known that make no sense if they are not also considered to be on that class's spell list -- and it could take quite a while to clean them all up.
Maybe this FAQ answer should be revisited if the magnitude of the issue of such abilities has not been overstated.
I don't think it harsh at all, but then again I'm on your side.
But hey, at least this change makes the wizard archetype in the Advanced Class guide, the one that let's you cast cleric/Druid/bard spells by sacrificing two spells of the same level, look a lot better, right?
This is a sad day for oracles but it was needed. I wonder if this suggests the wandering lore spirit ability for the shamans is being redone. Removing free access to the wizard list for one class one month and then giving it to another the next would send rather mixed messages.Funny you mention the shaman. There's been theories that certain FAQs are being made so the new classes "look better". Not sure I believe that, but some people do.
I now believe this to be true.
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A little off topic, I've seen mention of FAQs via blog post in this thread and a few others. Things like poison and animal companions I believe they were. Am I missing something, is there a separate section of the web site for rules blogs? When I visit the generic blog tab on the page I am not finding them.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq
Navigate to the book of your choice and voila
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.
Favored class bonuses aren't class features. Each class has a section called "Class Features", and favored class bonuses don't appear in that section.
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I don't think it harsh at all, but then again I'm on your side.
But hey, at least this change makes the wizard archetype in the Advanced Class guide, the one that let's you cast cleric/Druid/bard spells by sacrificing two spells of the same level, look a lot better, right?
I now believe this to be true.This is a sad day for oracles but it was needed. I wonder if this suggests the wandering lore spirit ability for the shamans is being redone. Removing free access to the wizard list for one class one month and then giving it to another the next would send rather mixed messages.Funny you mention the shaman. There's been theories that certain FAQs are being made so the new classes "look better". Not sure I believe that, but some people do.
Hi! Just wanted to clarify your post...
Did you mean that you believe the first part (Lore Spirit) is true or the second part (about making new classes look better)?
I've no opinion on the second part, but as for the Lore Spirit's Arcane Enlightenment, I think it was clarified early on that the ruling does not apply to class features, and Arcane Enlightenment is a class feature, so I don't see a problem for the Lore Shaman.
I do admit that the Spirit Guide Archetype for the Oracle has an issue with Arcane Enlightenment since Arcane Enlightenment was written for a prepared spellcaster, and Oracle is a spontaneous spellcaster, so RAW Arcane Enlightenment simply doesn't work for the Spirit Guide - though one would think it should work (and it can with a little adjustment by a cooperative GM). But this is an issue with the text of the ability and it's interaction with the Archetype, not the FAQ being discussed here.
So, I'm casting Raise Dead (it's on my spell list!) on this thread to ask, has the feats and such that this FAQ (which I am not using in my games, cause I think the problem with Paragon Surge was fixed when you made it so the decisions made for a feat can only be made once per day and this new FAQ just breaks too many other feats and abilities) been addressed?
As I said, in my games I am not even using this FAQ AT ALL and I figure most of my GMs I play with don't even come here that much themselves, so I'll be a bad bad player and fail to point out this FAQ to them, but I want to see this addressed because of the fact that I might someday end up playing with a GM that does meticulously use the FAQ.
has the feats and such that this FAQ been addressed?Can you rephrase your question?
There is too many to list out and I don't even have the list, another user was compiling it a page or two back in the thread. But for example, the worst case is the following feat...
When you sleep you gain secrets from beyond the stars, but such power comes with a price.
Prerequisite(s): Ability to cast divine spells, caster level 7th, worshiper of a Great Old One or Outer God.
Benefit(s): With each night's rest, you can choose two spells from the wizard spell list, both of which must be at least 1 wizard spell level lower than the highest level divine spell you can cast. If you are a spontaneous caster, these spells are added to your spells known for 24 hours. If you prepare spells, you can prepare these spells any time you do so in the next 24 hours. Each time you attempt to cast one of the wizard spells you have chosen, you must succeed at a DC 20 Will save or take 1d2 points of Wisdom damage and fail to cast the spell, though you do not lose the spell.
If you are a divine caster very few wizard spells are on your spell list. For those few that are, you can prepare (or learn) them and they already and it won't screw you over like the spells on this feat do. So, the only reason to take this feat is to gain wizard spells not on your spell list. The FAQ makes this feat do absolutely nothing, and in the rare case it might, you would be absolutely dumb to use this feat instead of just learning the spell normally.
I think you'd be better off compiling a list and making a separate thread about it.
The Devs can't read your mind.
Someone else already compiled a list and gave it to them. I am asking if anything has come about. Try reading the entire thread where it says that what you are telling me to do has already been done.
As for a separate thread, this one is about the FAQ that caused the issue and has a lengthy discussion of the issue... why make a second thread to ask a question about the same exact issue?
So it doesn't get buried (again).
My suggestions are not to be persnickety.
I'm actually trying to help you.
I get that, but there is no reason a new question won't get buried too, especially since it won't have the previous discussion to help people understand the issue. Plus, a few times when I have reasked an old question that I felt wasn't fully answered in the original thread, a moderator closed the thread with "Duplicate question. Original is here." so that's also another reason I just necromancied this thread, rather than make a brand new one.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I don't think they are going to reverse anything, if that is what you want AbsoluGrndZero.
They are probably likely to fix up any ability with the more clear language. The main point of the change is to make sure that the ability has to explicitly say it adds the spell to assume it does.
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I know a lot of people will stay away from a thread that has a lot of posts. I cap at around 100. I'll just read the last few posts. (fortunately that usually all that's new) But I'm not going to read all this so a new thread would have been better and will probably get more people.