New FAQ: New Spells Known


Rules Questions

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I'd prefer to play the scenario as it was before.


Technically speaking if they won initiative then she would have gotten hit even under the old ruling of crane wing since it takes a swift action to activate it. As for the second hit, if she had gone full defense she could still have deflected one blow. Assuming she also had riposte the monk could have then smacked your challenge for their trouble.

However if you are not playing for Society sanctioned credit, then no one can stop you from playing however you wish.


Also on topic, since it has not been asked yet. How does this interact with a person who takes an Arcane Bonded item via Eldritch Heritage?
In the Arcane bloodline it says that the bonded item, once per day lets you cast one of your spells known.

Then with way the FAQ is written it says you can not use a spell slot to power a spell not on your spell list. However it also does not explicitly disallow you from adding the spell known, after all you could get bestow curse or daylight and use either as an Oracle since it is on your list. It is just that you can not actually power the spell with one of your spell slots.

So hypothetically speaking is the Arcane Bonded item considered to be using a spell slot, or is there an admittedly circuitous method to get a spell once per day from a different list?

I realize this might be a slight stretch of a reading, or splitting hairs, but was curious.

Paizo Employee Designer

David Neilson wrote:

Also on topic, since it has not been asked yet. How does this interact with a person who takes an Arcane Bonded item via Eldritch Heritage?

In the Arcane bloodline it says that the bonded item, once per day lets you cast one of your spells known.

Then with way the FAQ is written it says you can not use a spell slot to power a spell not on your spell list. However it also does not explicitly disallow you from adding the spell known, after all you could get bestow curse or daylight and use either as an Oracle since it is on your list. It is just that you can not actually power the spell with one of your spell slots.

So hypothetically speaking is the Arcane Bonded item considered to be using a spell slot, or is there an admittedly circuitous method to get a spell once per day from a different list?

I realize this might be a slight stretch of a reading, or splitting hairs, but was curious.

If we went by the reading of the arcane bonded item and spells known that they key off your otherwise-null sorcerer spells known (which is as valid as any, since otherwise it isn't clear which spells known list to use for a multiclassed character), then it may be the case that the bonded item does nothing for a non-sorcerer until gaining those extra spells, in which case they may actually be the only ones the bonded item can cast at all, though probably not due to the whole difference between 0 and null (aka --). Of course, there's a lot of 'may's in there. This whole combination was always deep in the land of GM discretion to begin with, and it seems the FAQ has at least ruled definitively on most of it.


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the faq does seem pretty stinky...

the more i read the more i agree that Paragon Surge deserved the nerf bat, but all this spell list mumbojumbo is a load of bs.

if you honestly take the SkillFocus+EH+IEH feat chain bully for you. you win a couple of spells. Nerf paragon surge so that you can't use IEH to grab spells. problem fixed.

my beef always had been with paragon surge it stunk of cheese hot off the presses.

Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) is a Huge feat investment and backstory.


Sandbox wrote:

the faq does seem pretty stinky...

the more i read the more i agree that Paragon Surge deserved the nerf bat, but all this spell list mumbojumbo is a load of bs.

if you honestly take the SkillFocus+EH+IEH feat chain bully for you. you win a couple of spells. Nerf paragon surge so that you can't use IEH to grab spells. problem fixed.

my beef always had been with paragon surge it stunk of cheese hot off the presses.

Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) is a Huge feat investment and backstory.

yeah since knowledge skills and arcane bond aren't useful at all... pfft

On a less snarky note, thanks for the FAQ paizo! I'm looking forward to further clarifications and loop-hole closings. Nice job!


He didn't say they weren't useful, just that it was an investment. Don't you want investments you make to pay off?


I think I have another corner case.

A bard takes dragon disciple levels. Does he get dragon bloodline bonus spells added to his base class spell list as he gets appropriate slots because Blood of Dragons is a Dragon Disciple class feature or is he denied them because it gives him access to the draconic bloodline, which is a sorcerer class feature, or is he denied them because he has a bard list and a different class (namely dragon disciple) is adding the spells known?


Atarlost wrote:

I think I have another corner case.

A bard takes dragon disciple levels. Does he get dragon bloodline bonus spells added to his base class spell list as he gets appropriate slots because Blood of Dragons is a Dragon Disciple class feature or is he denied them because it gives him access to the draconic bloodline, which is a sorcerer class feature, or is he denied them because he has a bard list and a different class (namely dragon disciple) is adding the spells known?

PRD wrote:


...This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

You don't get the bonus spells unless you are a sorcerer, period. And you have to be a high enough level sorcerer to cast spells of that slot level.

(Unless of course I've missed some rule somewhere, been a really long time since I've seen a sorcerer used, and never seen a dragon disciple, so I'm not on the up and up of mechanics related to this PrC).


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Actually...

Dragon Disciple wrote:
If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.

If you weren't a sorcerer, then your DD level becomes your Sorcerer levels.


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Bloodline powers are seperate from the bonus spells from your bloodline. Dragon Disciple gives everyone bloodline powers, but only sorcerers gain the bonus spells.


Calth wrote:
Bloodline powers are seperate from the bonus spells from your bloodline. Dragon Disciple gives everyone bloodline powers, but only sorcerers gain the bonus spells.

Indeed, it's the same as if you took the Eldritch Heritage feats. You gain the bloodline powers, but not the bloodline spells.


Azten wrote:

Actually...

Dragon Disciple wrote:
If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.
If you weren't a sorcerer, then your DD level becomes your Sorcerer levels.

For purposes of what bloodline powers he acquires, and uses per day, damage, DC, etc that may be based on sorcerer level. He does not get sorcerer spell slots, bonus feats, or anything else related to actually being a sorcerer.


Dang, mussed the "bloodline powers" part. Carry on.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matrix Dragon wrote:
thejeff wrote:
They don't have a generic feat that can be abused to get cleric spells. They have cleric spells. It's the monster equivalent of a class feature.
Yea, when it comes to monsters you can easily just say that they have a unique bloodline that lets them cast those spells.

I generally try to avoid answering monster question in PC character language, because then you get PC's trying to use what you're writing as PC mechanics.

I would simply say that dragons have a feature which lets them cast cleric spells as sorcerer spells and leave it at that.


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I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.


Aha, thanks for finding this thread Drake.


DrakeRoberts wrote:
I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.

I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.


Nope. Need an FAQ. Fo' serious. >.>


bbangerter wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.
I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.

Except it's a racial feature that us for a class. If it was from the class, it wouldn't make sense that only Elves/Aasimars can boost their Oracle levels for a revelation.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I just made a character that is a bard to go into Dragon Diciple. It fit the character more for a bard and the requirements do not mention the class sorcerer (just spontanious arcane spell use). Does the requirements for DD need changed or is there something missing? Shouldn't DD give the extra spells to the class that the character entered into it with, just as they do with other PrC's?


thaX wrote:
I just made a character that is a bard to go into Dragon Diciple. It fit the character more for a bard and the requirements do not mention the class sorcerer (just spontanious arcane spell use). Does the requirements for DD need changed or is there something missing? Shouldn't DD give the extra spells to the class that the character entered into it with, just as they do with other PrC's?

You get continued bard spellcasting, minus a couple of levels. What you don't get is the bonus sorcerer bloodline spells. You only pick up the draconic bloodline powers, based on your dragon disciple level.

Blood of Dragons wrote:
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

The former bard doesn't have sorcerer spell slots of the approprate level for any of the bonus spells. He also doesn't pick up the bloodline arcana, the class skill or the bonus feats. The last two are largely irrelevant, since the Bard already has perception and the PRC doesn't actually give bonus feats anyway.


Azten wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.
I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.
Except it's a racial feature that us for a class. If it was from the class, it wouldn't make sense that only Elves/Aasimars can boost their Oracle levels for a revelation.

It's both a race and class feature. A elven paladin cannot take the oracle spell. A human oracle also cannot take it.

If you want to insist it is only a racial feature, then the conclusion is that that choice doesn't actually do anything at all for you in light of this FAQ.

Given two possible outcomes, one useless, one that makes perfect sense... :)


bbangerter wrote:

If you want to insist it is only a racial feature, then the conclusion is that that choice doesn't actually do anything at all for you in light of this FAQ.

Given two possible outcomes, one useless, one that makes perfect sense... :)

Well, in theory there could be wizard illusion spells that are also on the bard list, I haven't checked. Seems awfully niche though.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So using Bard for the DD PrC is a sub-optimal way to go. Thing is, I didn't want a third sorcerer.


thaX wrote:
So using Bard for the DD PrC is a sub-optimal way to go. Thing is, I didn't want a third sorcerer.

Some what. All you really lose is the bloodline spells and arcana. OTOH, you're a bard, which probably means you'll be better in melee (hp/bab/performance) than a sorcerer based dragon disciple and that's usually the point of dragon disciple.

On the gripping hand, and probably a bigger difference than anything else, you're casting as a bard, not a sorcerer. You're not a full caster. In that sense it's sub-optimal, but so is dragon disciple at all. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Not just a Bard, a Daredevil/Savage Skald bard...


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thaX wrote:
So using Bard for the DD PrC is a sub-optimal way to go. Thing is, I didn't want a third sorcerer.

A DD Bard can be a terrifying opponent if in melee. I made one as a possible BBEG to replace the BBEG in Curse of the Crimson Throne (I made a few different builds as possible choices for the replacement) and the DD Bard was a really scary opponent. Especially if the DD Bard uses greater bladed dash and then quickens another greater bladed dash via a rod. With the right positioning, you can deal some major hurt to the party.


No, what you want is DD/Bloodrager!


thaX wrote:
So using Bard for the DD PrC is a sub-optimal way to go. Thing is, I didn't want a third sorcerer.

Is this for PFS? If not I would talk to my DM about the spell casting progression. Bards are 2/3 casters and dragon disciple is 2/3 caster, it seems ok to let the bard progress through DD at his full bard rate. Either that or also progress the inspire ability at 2/3 through DD. Both options seem very reasonable and I would allow either for a PC in my games.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Take a look at Unsanctioned Knowledge:

Unsanctioned Knowledge wrote:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.

This feat specifically adds spells to the paladin spell list.

But let's say for the moment that paladin was spontaneous and had a list of spells known. If we changed Unsanctioned Knowledge as well so it read

Unsanctioned Knowledge wrote:
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spells known as paladin spells of the same level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.

Then you would need to pick spells from those lists that were also on the paladin spell list if you wanted to cast them. It would need to also state that they were added to the paladin spell list, like the original does.

As in the case of Unsanctioned Knowledge (and Samsaran's Mystic Past Life), all instances of intentional additions to a class's spell list should specifically indicate that the spells are added to the class's spell list.

The problem here is that both of these examples reference the paladin spell list -- and the paladin is not a spontaneous caster. I have seen numerous citations on these messageborads of cases of spells from other classes being added to a spontaneous caster's list of spells known that make no sense if they are not also considered to be on that class's spell list -- and it could take quite a while to clean them all up.

Maybe this FAQ answer should be revisited if the magnitude of the issue of such abilities has not been overstated.


A little off topic, I've seen mention of FAQs via blog post in this thread and a few others. Things like poison and animal companions I believe they were. Am I missing something, is there a separate section of the web site for rules blogs? When I visit the generic blog tab on the page I am not finding them.


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wow, a lot of people are actually crying fowl here. Unfortunately you aren't going to convince the designers not to make bad choices. even if the vast majority of people here are crying foul they wont consider dissenting opinions. I'm glad someone popped out with the list of stuff this change effectively breaks, with the designer admitting it does to no current fix. IE rather than suspend the change till it can be errated (errataception) it works as written and the things it breaks now have no purpose. the beauty part here is I couldn't find any but you guys certainly helped me out on that, but if I can show how this design choice is poorly written, I can probably get it declined of use in my group.

In some ways, I'm glad we aren't beholden to paizo's exact rulings anymore. It's currently breaking two very flavorful builds I have, but the one where I cast up to six level spells divine and summoner, have access to all 11th level revelations of my mystery, 2 full domain powers and almost any other feat i want, can throw down skill checks of above 70 at level ~10, and still be a completely competent melee combatant and caster, is left untouched.

This stuff may be great for PFS play, but in other games it's a pretty non nonsensical distinction, where this kind of thing ^ is rewarded but having bladed dash I and II and the jump spell on a war priest is a big no no.

sorry if this comes off as super harsh in this hug box, but our group has been running long standing for over 2 years now. so we've been through this game A LOT.


I don't think it harsh at all, but then again I'm on your side.

But hey, at least this change makes the wizard archetype in the Advanced Class guide, the one that let's you cast cleric/Druid/bard spells by sacrificing two spells of the same level, look a lot better, right?

Azten wrote:
andreww wrote:
This is a sad day for oracles but it was needed. I wonder if this suggests the wandering lore spirit ability for the shamans is being redone. Removing free access to the wizard list for one class one month and then giving it to another the next would send rather mixed messages.
Funny you mention the shaman. There's been theories that certain FAQs are being made so the new classes "look better". Not sure I believe that, but some people do.

I now believe this to be true.

Dark Archive

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Torbyne wrote:
A little off topic, I've seen mention of FAQs via blog post in this thread and a few others. Things like poison and animal companions I believe they were. Am I missing something, is there a separate section of the web site for rules blogs? When I visit the generic blog tab on the page I am not finding them.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq

Navigate to the book of your choice and voila

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

bbangerter wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
I think favored class bonuses need to be looked at, unless they count as being 'from the class'. For example, the Wayang Bard and Oracle FCBs add spells known from another class list without explicitly adding them to your Oracle list as well.
I'd rule those as a class feature as those options are available to be taken only if you are that class. And it is "Favored Class Options" after all.

Favored class bonuses aren't class features. Each class has a section called "Class Features", and favored class bonuses don't appear in that section.


Psyren wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
A little off topic, I've seen mention of FAQs via blog post in this thread and a few others. Things like poison and animal companions I believe they were. Am I missing something, is there a separate section of the web site for rules blogs? When I visit the generic blog tab on the page I am not finding them.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq

Navigate to the book of your choice and voila

Oh yes, that page I am familiar with, but there are often references to long posts or blogs that explain things like limits of high intelligence animals that I can never find. I am curious if there is now or was in the past a desperate sub tab under the blog for designer essays or something.

Lantern Lodge

Azten wrote:

I don't think it harsh at all, but then again I'm on your side.

But hey, at least this change makes the wizard archetype in the Advanced Class guide, the one that let's you cast cleric/Druid/bard spells by sacrificing two spells of the same level, look a lot better, right?

Azten wrote:
andreww wrote:
This is a sad day for oracles but it was needed. I wonder if this suggests the wandering lore spirit ability for the shamans is being redone. Removing free access to the wizard list for one class one month and then giving it to another the next would send rather mixed messages.
Funny you mention the shaman. There's been theories that certain FAQs are being made so the new classes "look better". Not sure I believe that, but some people do.
I now believe this to be true.

Hi! Just wanted to clarify your post...

Did you mean that you believe the first part (Lore Spirit) is true or the second part (about making new classes look better)?

I've no opinion on the second part, but as for the Lore Spirit's Arcane Enlightenment, I think it was clarified early on that the ruling does not apply to class features, and Arcane Enlightenment is a class feature, so I don't see a problem for the Lore Shaman.

I do admit that the Spirit Guide Archetype for the Oracle has an issue with Arcane Enlightenment since Arcane Enlightenment was written for a prepared spellcaster, and Oracle is a spontaneous spellcaster, so RAW Arcane Enlightenment simply doesn't work for the Spirit Guide - though one would think it should work (and it can with a little adjustment by a cooperative GM). But this is an issue with the text of the ability and it's interaction with the Archetype, not the FAQ being discussed here.


So, I'm casting Raise Dead (it's on my spell list!) on this thread to ask, has the feats and such that this FAQ (which I am not using in my games, cause I think the problem with Paragon Surge was fixed when you made it so the decisions made for a feat can only be made once per day and this new FAQ just breaks too many other feats and abilities) been addressed?

As I said, in my games I am not even using this FAQ AT ALL and I figure most of my GMs I play with don't even come here that much themselves, so I'll be a bad bad player and fail to point out this FAQ to them, but I want to see this addressed because of the fact that I might someday end up playing with a GM that does meticulously use the FAQ.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
AbsolutGrndZer0 (parentheses removed) wrote:
has the feats and such that this FAQ been addressed?

Can you rephrase your question?


Nefreet wrote:
AbsolutGrndZer0 (parentheses removed) wrote:
has the feats and such that this FAQ been addressed?
Can you rephrase your question?

There is too many to list out and I don't even have the list, another user was compiling it a page or two back in the thread. But for example, the worst case is the following feat...

Dreamed Secrets (source: Inner Sea Gods) wrote:

When you sleep you gain secrets from beyond the stars, but such power comes with a price.

Prerequisite(s): Ability to cast divine spells, caster level 7th, worshiper of a Great Old One or Outer God.

Benefit(s): With each night's rest, you can choose two spells from the wizard spell list, both of which must be at least 1 wizard spell level lower than the highest level divine spell you can cast. If you are a spontaneous caster, these spells are added to your spells known for 24 hours. If you prepare spells, you can prepare these spells any time you do so in the next 24 hours. Each time you attempt to cast one of the wizard spells you have chosen, you must succeed at a DC 20 Will save or take 1d2 points of Wisdom damage and fail to cast the spell, though you do not lose the spell.

If you are a divine caster very few wizard spells are on your spell list. For those few that are, you can prepare (or learn) them and they already and it won't screw you over like the spells on this feat do. So, the only reason to take this feat is to gain wizard spells not on your spell list. The FAQ makes this feat do absolutely nothing, and in the rare case it might, you would be absolutely dumb to use this feat instead of just learning the spell normally.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think you'd be better off compiling a list and making a separate thread about it.

The Devs can't read your mind.


Nefreet wrote:

I think you'd be better off compiling a list and making a separate thread about it.

The Devs can't read your mind.

Someone else already compiled a list and gave it to them. I am asking if anything has come about. Try reading the entire thread where it says that what you are telling me to do has already been done.

As for a separate thread, this one is about the FAQ that caused the issue and has a lengthy discussion of the issue... why make a second thread to ask a question about the same exact issue?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

So it doesn't get buried (again).

My suggestions are not to be persnickety.

I'm actually trying to help you.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

No, these FAQs are pretty clearly to plug up some SUV sized holes in the rules that should have been plugged LOOONG ago.

Next up: Simulacrum?

In my opinion, simulacrum deserves an entire blog post filled with tips and clarifications, like when Jason did that super-helpful poison blog.

Each of the entire simulacrum family of spells, (there's more than one) needs to be looked at from top to bottom. Part of that examination should be the spell's evolution from First Edition onward, and then it needs to be decided what the spell SHOULD give out for Pathfinder, and how many hoops it should take to get it. In the old days you had to have an actual piece of the creature you were going to copy.


LazarX wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

No, these FAQs are pretty clearly to plug up some SUV sized holes in the rules that should have been plugged LOOONG ago.

Next up: Simulacrum?

In my opinion, simulacrum deserves an entire blog post filled with tips and clarifications, like when Jason did that super-helpful poison blog.
Each of the entire simulacrum family of spells, (there's more than one) needs to be looked at from top to bottom. Part of that examination should be the spell's evolution from First Edition onward, and then it needs to be decided what the spell SHOULD give out for Pathfinder, and how many hoops it should take to get it. In the old days you had to have an actual piece of the creature you were going to copy.

Sounds like Unchained territory to me.


Nefreet wrote:

So it doesn't get buried (again).

My suggestions are not to be persnickety.

I'm actually trying to help you.

I get that, but there is no reason a new question won't get buried too, especially since it won't have the previous discussion to help people understand the issue. Plus, a few times when I have reasked an old question that I felt wasn't fully answered in the original thread, a moderator closed the thread with "Duplicate question. Original is here." so that's also another reason I just necromancied this thread, rather than make a brand new one.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you do not wish to create a new thread, at least repost the list you're inquiring about.

Speaking as someone who's had multiple FAQs answered, you're more likely to get something errata'd or FAQ'd if you do the leg work.

The Devs can't read your mind.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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I don't think they are going to reverse anything, if that is what you want AbsoluGrndZero.

They are probably likely to fix up any ability with the more clear language. The main point of the change is to make sure that the ability has to explicitly say it adds the spell to assume it does.


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I know a lot of people will stay away from a thread that has a lot of posts. I cap at around 100. I'll just read the last few posts. (fortunately that usually all that's new) But I'm not going to read all this so a new thread would have been better and will probably get more people.

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