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I am about to play in a Wrath of the Righteous campaign. I am going to build a paladin. I want to play a two weapon fighting paladin. All the guides I am finding are for sword and shield two weapon fighting with shield bash and that is not what I am going for.
I am thinking I need Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting (the whole tree), Two Weapon Defense (the whole tree). My primary concern when it comes to the feats is should I spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency – Bastard Sword. I figure the 1d10 damage for my primary weapon will make up for the low strength modifier. But I am not sure the extra few points of damage is worth the feat.
For race, it is a home game and the GM is fairly permissive with the races available, but I need the feat so I am leaning toward Human.
Does anyone have any advice for my two weapon fighting paladin?
You need a free hand to do things like LoH, so I'd recommend either an Orc Double Axe, a Gnome Hooked Hammer or a Two-Bladed Sword (all exotic double weapons). They work just like two-weapon fighting except you can take your hand off (thus giving you a free hand) as a free action. Also, if you can't full attack then you can get 1.5x str mod on damage rolls.
Uh... be prepared to be mediocre in combat? Honestly, TWF is a fairly sub-par fighting style without something to boost it, like sneak attack or a really high strength (through the ranger TWF feat qualifications). The other thing is that it's very feat intensive, so unless you have a source of bonus feats - like ranger or fighter - you are going to be hard pressed to be good at anything else either.
This is why all the guides suggest shield bash TWF. It has good feats for it, gives defense and offense (like you are wanting with TWD) and adds on rider effects like Bull Rush.
That said, don't go with bastard sword. You need the feat, and the +1 average damage over a longsword isn't worth it. You might consider going for a crit fishing build - so scimitars or kukris or something like that - and start putting down status effects as soon as possible (which is like level 11 or so).
I'd personally recommend going with as much strength as you can, with only enough dex to qualify you for the feats you want. I'd also probably stop at ITWF, as that third attack is not worth the extra 2 points of dex you need.
I also hope, for your combat sake, that you are going to be fighting lots of evil things, and relatively few of them at a time. You will need the Smite bonus to hit and the bonus to damage on both weapons will make you more comparable to a two-hander in combat.
If you have a way to get DEX to damage (agile enchantment or the like) then you might not be bad off just dumping Str to 10 and investing everything in DEX. It eats up another precious feat, but will better fit your concept without sacrificing viability.
I'm sure others will have better, more specific build advice, but just know that the build you are wanting is sub-optimal and could cause frustration in a group with any sort of optimized characters.
You need a free hand for lay on hands and spellcasting, so TWF only works if you can overcome this limitation.
Otherwise, mauril's advice is solid.
You picked the best AP to do a TWF pally, you will get plenty of chances to do double damage on smite with all the demons and undead. The double weapon idea is a great one, I usually am a proponent of using two light weapons so your weapon focus and other weapon specific feats go twice as far. Maybe you'll get lucky and find a Sunblade and get a bastard sword that works with short sword feats.
Edit: Also, Glove of Storing would also eventually solve needing a free hand.
An even easier way to solve the free hand problem is to use a weapon that leaves your hands free.
Gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, brass knuckles, and the cestus should all work out well. The cestus is probably the highest choice on the list, since it has stats that are similar to a daggers.
Although a nice double weapon can always be nice. They can be used as 2 handed weapons, which means you can still get decent damage even if you have to move and only get 1 attack.
Also, 2 weapon defense is kind of....meh quite honestly. For someone as feat starved as you, I would avoid it. But that would need a more strength focused build, and I seem to remember that adventure paths assume a 15 point buy....which is harsh for even strength based paladins.
Find a race that gives a bonus to dex/cha, or str/cha. Either will help implicitly with 2 of your 3 required stats.
Halfling (-2 str, +2 dex, +2 cha): hit to strength, but if you are going weapon finesse route (recommend dual kukris), a really solid build, especially with the charisma boost.
Aasimar (angel-blooded: +2 str, +2 cha): pretty much perfect paladin race, if GM allows aasimars. Alternately, if going dex route, choose azata-blooded (+2 dex, +2 cha).
Drow or Dhampir (+2 dex, -2 con, +2 cha): the -2 con hits your hit points, but divine grace protects saves. Both give unique storyline implications as holy warrior risen from evil roots.
Fetchling or Ifrit (+2 dex, -2 wis, +2 cha): wis is a dump stat for many paladins, second only to int. no hit point loss with drow/dhampir, and stealth-based racial abilities give dangerous twist to paladin. Might be perfect with dip in rogue. Ifrit has different feel, could be good basis for Paladin of Saranrae.
If you're going to go weapon finesse don't waste a feat on a Bastard Sword you can't finesse it. You could go with a Rapier or Sword Cane and pair it with whatever other light weapon or together if you want. As soon as you can work on getting Agile added to your weapons
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Whether or not Mauril's advice is good for normal play, it is not apt for WotR.
First, getting Dex to damage is easy; Mythic weapon finesse.
Second, TWF paladin puts out huge damage when you smite, and thanks to Mythic Smite, you will always be smiting.
You can have these at the start of Book 2.
Third, because of Fleet Warrior, you can almost always make a full attack.
This is available at the start of Book 3.
Build:
Paladin 5
Sentinel (from Inner Sea Gods) 10
Back to Paladin
Feats
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Weapon Focus (longsword)
5 Deific Obedience
7 TWF
7B Power Attack
9 ITWF
10B Double Slice
11 GTWF
13 Improved Crit
Worship Iomadae and wield a normal sized longsword in your main hand and a small one in your offhand (starting at 7). It is going to have a slower start, but will be super strong after Book 1.
The Sentinel boons for Iomadae are crazy good (and you essentially get full smite). The sentinel bonus makes up for the penalty to hit. And Iomadae is tied pretty tightly to the story.
I would skip TWD and use mythic abilities to cover defenses.
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Actually don't want to give away too many spoilers but at level 6 you will have the possibility get a Free Feat thanks to in story happenings. Just be a completion-est. But if your looking to get a solid build having that info is a good thing.
First, getting Dex to damage is easy; Mythic weapon finesse.
Second, TWF paladin puts out huge damage when you smite, and thanks to Mythic Smite, you will always be smiting.
First I am going to say STAY AWAY FROM WEAPON FINESSE. For this campaign.
Your going to be rocking a Long-sword in your Main hand and then a light weapon in your off hand.
Why a long sword. Well I don't want to give away story. But by the end of the first part of book 1 you will understand why. And you will thank me for this info.
Part 2 about mythic Smite....this will be your Tier 1 path ability of the champion. No doubt.
Worship Iomadae and wield a normal sized longsword in your main hand and a small one in your offhand (starting at 7). It is going to have a slower start, but will be super strong after Book 1.
Would a small longsword count as a light weapon? I'm not sure on that. Find out and make sure your OH is a light weapon.
Yes worship Iomadae!!! Flavor for this campaign. BTW your playing the BEST class for this campaign. A longsword wielding Paladin.
My suggestion on feats:
H-Fey fondling
1-Power attack
3-Two weapon Fighting
5-Weapon Focus- Long-sword
6-Improved 2 weapon Fighting
7-Improved Critical- Long-sword
9-
11-Greater 2 weapon fighting
13-
15-
17-
19-
As far as mythic Abilities....I would get a legendary weapon and make it your off hand. Get the Upgradeable ability and your weapons for this campaign will be near nothing. Your armor will drop....your actually going to be rather pimped out come end of Book 2 and start of book 3. and I mean super PIMPED out on gear. It will be raining gear.
as far as traits I recommend Dangerously Curious. Get UMD as a skill and get some points in it ASAP. Buy a wand of Lead Blades....your longsword will go up to a 2d6.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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He's right, weapon finesse doesn't apply to longswords and you probably want a longsword (or two).
Your build works fine, John, you just need a 1 level dip into Swashbuckler.
That gives you weapon finesse as a bonus feat, freeing up your 1st level feat for Slashing Grace, which lets you finesse that longsword just fine.
Plus, you get a pool of Panache to parry attacks (a good sub for TWD), which works off Charisma and synergizes with your Paladin abilities. And since you're not taking it to 3rd level, you don't care about using a weapon in your off hand because you're not relying on precise strike for damage.
I personally would take two Gladius or kukris anytime for a Paladin that is dex based, low str and wants to two weapon. If you want to waste a feat for two handed buster sword, you could use it for Wakizashi instead so you hit better, more often, better crit range for more damage. After all, Paladin is not fighter, you don't have weapon training to help you cancel out the penalty for using one handed weapon on your off hand. Beside that, Gladius and Wakizashi do both Piercing and Slashing while each have their own special quality, while kukri is cheap and easy to get a lot of them at early levels for spares. Lastly, I think longsword and Bastard Sword can't use Weapon Finesse, even with Slashing Grace. So yea, light weapons for dex based Paladin. Don't forget to pack two light hammer just in case, they are cheap but handy.
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Don't forget that certain races such as half orcs, elves and gnomes begin with proficiency in certain racial weapons (halflings, oddly enough, not so much). This would allow you to not need to take exotic weapon proficiency as you'd already be proficient. It makes race selection come down to stats and other abilities since they will all have the same number of effective feats for the purposes of this build.
Why weapon finesse? is pretty bad, really like stop it. if you want TWF better go Ranger or Fighter.
Ordinary THF Paladin is better, or even Sword and Board, i know it because i am GMing WotR and my Paladin is a Sword and Board. With a nice build, you would do the job.
Why weapon finesse? is pretty bad, really like stop it. if you want TWF better go Ranger or Fighter.Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I will agree that, generally, finesse builds have a bit of an uphill battle. They need to spend feats just to do things others do automatically, and they still fall a bit short if they don't further invest in weapon properties to do what others do naturally rather than just grabbing pluses like everyone else.
Heck, if it wasn't for the fact that this was likely a 15-20 point buy (and this is a paladin-ie: a rather MAD class already), then I would have advised only grabbing a minimum amount of DEX to get the good stuff (16, with an ability score adjustment at level 4), and just focus on a strength build. But sadly, I doubt they have that luxury with their point buy
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Heck, if it wasn't for the fact that this was likely a 15-20 point buy (and this is a paladin-ie: a rather MAD class already), then I would have advised only grabbing a minimum amount of DEX to get the good stuff (16, with an ability score adjustment at level 4), and just focus on a strength build. But sadly, I doubt they have that luxury with their point buy
To be honest the OP could easily start with a lower dex. enough for just 2wf. He can then get more dex through his Mythic Level ups enough to qualify for the rest of the chain.
However I agree that a Longsword and Shield would Probably be the Better route. Not to mention your Shield would get your smite added to it. Kinda crazy good when your handed extra Stats and Feats for becoming mythic.
But 2 weapon fighting with a blade in the OH will work just fine for the same reasons.
** spoiler omitted **
This is what I was basically trying to avoid the spoil. Looks like that is too late now.
Because by the end of part 1 in book 1 you recieve a sword called Radiance. It is a holy avenger you have to level up through "good deeds". Basically your story forced to unlock it further so you will have a +3 cold iron longsword by the end of book 2 and later you will have a fully unlocked Holy avenger.
Going price of a Holy avenger= 120,630 gp
Your price= 0
This is a huge reason to use a Longsword in this campaign. You will never have to spend a dime on it to have a +5 holy coldiron longsword with bad ass effects.
This leave you to sink your money into your OH item. I suggested taking the universal path Legendary Item...you can add upgrade-able to the item and enchant it yourself for 50% and never need a craft feat or magic to do it.
That would take your weapon costs to rival your armor costs.
Oh did I mention this is THE PALADIN campaign of all time?
You will have Celestial armor by the beginning of Book 3 given to you by drop....on top of another full plate drop in the middle of Book 2.
So what is a paladin to do with 0 armor cost, 0 MH weapon cost, and 50% OH weapon cost?
Spend all your money on other cool overpriced s%$$ you would normally never be able to afford because your spending all your money on the Above items.
Heck, if it wasn't for the fact that this was likely a 15-20 point buy (and this is a paladin-ie: a rather MAD class already), then I would have advised only grabbing a minimum amount of DEX to get the good stuff (16, with an ability score adjustment at level 4), and just focus on a strength build. But sadly, I doubt they have that luxury with their point buyTo be honest the OP could easily start with a lower dex. enough for just 2wf. He can then get more dex through his Mythic Level ups enough to qualify for the rest of the chain.
However I agree that a Longsword and Shield would Probably be the Better route. Not to mention your Shield would get your smite added to it. Kinda crazy good when your handed extra Stats and Feats for becoming mythic.
But 2 weapon fighting with a blade in the OH will work just fine for the same reasons.
** spoiler omitted **This is what I was basically trying to avoid the spoil. Looks like that is too late now.
** spoiler omitted **...
Ah.....that is certainly a point. You could easily start out with a 15 and just get what you need by tier 2. Depending on the race (either a +2 to where ever, or one of the numerous +2DEX/CHA, -2 WIS races), I could very snugly fit it into a 20 point buy like that. Unfortunately....15 would be very, very painful.
I forget, what is the assumed point buy for Wrath of the Righteous?
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Most APs are to be done on a 15-20 point buy...but since they are designed for Home brew campaigns it is up to the DM on what point buy they use.
I believe WotR was suppose to be a 15 point buy because of how ridiculous you gain ability boosts.
My group did a 20 point buy and ended in book 4. By 9th level we had a 40 Str Mythic vital strike scythe Fighter, a Archer paladin, A 40 wisdom Evangelist Cleric, and a 40 Int God crafter wizard.
The wizard made everyone's Gear at 45% value.
Everyone but the Wizard had a Legendary Item to also.
Everyone was optimized for damage.
By level 9 our group could kill a demon lord in a single round...
The campaign was too outragous to continue as my Wizard already had a Initative of +48 and was working towards mythic time stop. While my melee types are hitting for 700+ damage a round EACH.
Mythic was actually a stupid Idea.
Now I have heard of some groups running it without ANY mythic and it being a good campaign.
But a group of 20th level characters with 10 mythic tiers is like trying to stop Gods.