Goblin Squad Member
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How many star metal hexes are in the Alpha for you to base the idea that they're easy pickins' and chock full of nodes?
Our visions of things to be, I'm guessing, are extremely different.
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My view of star metal availability:
There will probably be a bunch of different resources in star metal hexes. Some of it is likely to be just common stuff you'll find anywhere. Others will be a little higher quality, but still not the awesomeness you're seeking. Very rarely, you might spot a star metal node. I crafted and gathered in other MMOs, I know how rare things can be to find if everyone's trying to get "the good stuff". You might spend hours looking for some star metal and never see any. In a rare (you know the definition) occurance, you might pop in, find a node, and run off thanking Cayden Cailean's good name and promising to buy a round that night at the pub if he gets you home alive, because there are people out there who would ambush you if they thought you had a handful of adamantium on you. Plus, even if you can avoid the other players, there are enough monsters to keep you busy.
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Your apparent view of star metal availability (this is based off of your vehement push to make the hex into a kill box):
Every other node is star metal and the only way to keep people out is to have them be at constant risk of people attacking them regardless of alignment, reputation, and other restrictions. This means that LG can attack LG with no consequences and even Paladins can act as bandits in this hex if they want instead of that being reserved for NE and CE.**
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I think you have unrealistic expectations^^ of how plentiful this stuff is that it needs to warrant what will likely devolve into griefing hexes. I'm not saying that griefing is your intention, but I see it being a result of FFA hexes. Killing someone on their way out, because you think they might have a bunch of high value items and it is worth the rep/align hit you'll take is interesting PvP. Killing someone on the way in, just for the grins is griefing.
** LE banditry is called "taxes" and is generally handled only in settlement hexes.
^^ Technically, the devs could be looking at us both and saying we have unrealistic expectations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want actual rare items. I don't want T3 items that dozens of folks have to be considered "rare". That's false advertisement.
Okay, I'm looking for some context here. Dozens (24-48) of folks in each settlement (of like 150 people)? Or dozens (24-48) of folks in the game (ten thousand people as a hopeful ballpark for early on)?
Could you go with population percentage, because we're talking a range anywhere from 1/3 of the population to being on the range of getting struck by completely natural lightning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i also thought that there was a post somewhere that there will be 100(i think that was the number) tier 1 nodes per 1 teir 2 node and about the same ratio in the amount of tier 2 nodes compared to tier 3 nodes.
so if i remember correctly 10100 nodes that are not tier 3(starmetal) nodes for every 1 that is....it seems a bit rare already
You have a lot of ways to PvP. Why is that not enough? Are you scared that you will lose a feud or SAD?
Are you that weak?
Yeah! Are you...
*Makes clucking noises*
*Flaps arms*
Bringslite, it's pretty obvious that less will. Not because less that is mined reaches the market—bandits gotta sell that stuff, too—but because fewer gatherers will use a higher-risk venue. Gatherers like Li'l Cal's friends will head elsewhere for their moneys rather than risk consequence-free PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which AeT community is complaining that it is too far from a sky metal hex? Of these, which lacks that the ability to move to a prime location close to sky metal? Are you saying that your community has a prime location with some negatives for which others must be subjected to PvP?
Others must pay for your short sidedness, short sidedness which you could correct but prefer to make others suffer?
Why do these hexes, which you could be near to, need to be treated special? Too hard for you and you do not want to change site? And you are a small site which needs help!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lack of alignment shift may not make much sense but lack of reputation hits does.
Reputation is largely meant to combat the way things go in similar titles where you're out in low value neutral territory doing nothing that hurts anyone, and then random people walk up to you and gank you because "lol".
Starfall hexes are a few small patches filled with highly valuable resources. When you're out mining mithril and adamantine you're pulling out highly valuable materials of limited quantities. Anyone of thieving tendencies has great reason to kill you and even other harvesters have good reasons to want you dead.
Evil? Yes.
Chaotic? Probably.
Toxic? No.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite, it's pretty obvious that less will. Not because less that is mined reaches the market—bandits gotta sell that stuff, too—but because fewer gatherers will use a higher-risk venue. Gatherers like Li'l Cal's friends will head elsewhere for their moneys rather than risk consequence-free PvP.
I am not sure why you are being rude toward Caldeathe, but if that is important to making your point, it loses value IMO.
So because it is more dangerous to retrieve, it will be harvested in less quantities? So there will be less available for sale or crafting?
What happens then?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You have a lot of ways to PvP. Why is that not enough?
With every PvP allowance or restriction we need to ask ourselves this question.
"How does PvPing in this manner offer more content and enhance the game? Who could be negatively impacted by this and how could they avoid that impact?"
The obvious upside is it creates slightly more dangerous zones where players seeking both violence and profit can go. A huge upside to this is that when PvPers are occupied fighting over super valuable resources in star metal hexes they are less likely to be hanging around other areas trying to game the reputation system. They have better things to do. So it's good for both the PvPers and those wishing to avoid it.
The downside is that it makes extracting super valuable resources tougher for those who wish to avoid PvP. I would say these kind of things are meant to be fought over anyway. Those looking to build the most powerful characters, gear, settlements etc. need to be ready to fight for it. Those who would rather just avoid such unpleasantries can.
giving people a reason to SAD you
I thought that was why the mechanic was put in in the first place?
Last I heard SADs were now some part of some bandit/merchant factional warfare thing. Unless you must belong to the merchant faction to extract these resources we can't really count on SADs. Plus SADs don't allow you to run off the people competing over ore. Just snatch what they have on them when you catch them. It would be far more effective to kill them and thereby force them to come back from their respawn point after they gear up again if they want to compete over those scarce resources.
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Goblin Squad Member
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can someone clarify the Merchant/Raider faction thing? Does that mean you cant be sad or sad unless you join a merchant or bandit faction? that just doesnt seem to make sense
"The obvious upside is it creates slightly more dangerous zones where players seeking both violence and profit can go. A huge upside to this is that when PvPers are occupied fighting over super valuable resources in star metal hexes they are less likely to be hanging around other areas trying to game the reputation system. They have better things to do. So it's good for both the PvPers and those wishing to avoid it."
~ Andius
So they wont be gaming the rep system in other places because it will be pre-gamed in the ffa hex?
edit to insert -- > that doesnt seem like an upside
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Goblin Squad Member
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can someone clarify the Merchant/Raider faction thing? Does that mean you cant be sad or sad unless you join a merchant or bandit faction? that just doesnt seem to make sense
"The obvious upside is it creates slightly more dangerous zones where players seeking both violence and profit can go. A huge upside to this is that when PvPers are occupied fighting over super valuable resources in star metal hexes they are less likely to be hanging around other areas trying to game the reputation system. They have better things to do. So it's good for both the PvPers and those wishing to avoid it."
~ AndiusSo they wont be gaming the rep system in other places because it will be pre-gamed in the ffa hex?
edit to insert -- > that doesnt seem like an upside
It can't be confirmed but here is a good place to read about the concept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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so its a future implementation that doesnt have a defined start as of yet
So basically at the start of EE SAD is either in with no faction req or it has the faction reqs which means its pretty much out due to lack of carrots to go with the stick
thanks BL i left that thread a bit before that part because it didnt seem like it was going anywhere
sorry for the sidetrack
- back to the topic -
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a big fan of PvP in MMOs* but I believe a system where there is FFA PvP will cause the player base to become polarized into PvPers and non-PvPers. I like the idea of consequence causing players to hold back as this may in turn engage players who fall more on the anti-pvp side. No one likes being ganked but with a system where retribution is available or the gankers character development becomes limited is a lot more acceptable. Unfortunately FFA would circumvent this consequence and undermine the games design philosophy.
* there is a lot wrong with PvP in MMOs primarily due to the trinity design for PvE which has been spoke a lot about, bit that is a whole other thread for another game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I realized while typing that I had argued the same way I was planning to once before, in the thread linked to in the first post:
I would much prefer temporary "anything goes-territories" to be created due to player actions, like warzones, end stages of certain escalations etc., to permanent ones. (If they need to be in the game at all).
If there are to be permanent ones, the best way to draw people into them is by having the best resources/mob spawns in those zones. Then what you end up with is a PVE/softcore-PVP game until you progress to a certain point when you'll want to visit the "anything goes-territories" for your tier 57 resources and BANG!, welcome to a hardcore FFA PvP experience that is nothing like the game experience you've had up until now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Wurner - interesting idea, in some ways I could see this tying in with some concepts put forward in another thread* about various effects of killing bosses and generals in escalations. Maybe something like you are suggesting could work in that scenario.
On the flip side this may also cause confusion amongst players who don't understand why they are able to be killed openly at times when usually they aren't.
* again I'm on my phone causing exceptional tedium to look up the thread in referencing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SADS are the answer, feuds and or FFA are not.
A feud is not the answer for several reasons, but mostly it will not be immediate enough. I can not imagine a feud being instantly engaged in.
A feud can be easily avoided. Players in a feuded company can switch to one if the other two companies they belong to. They can also switch to another character, and continue harvesting. They can leave the area of that particular star metal hex. Finally, they can retreat to their settlement and wait out the feud time.
A SAD is instant. It can not be avoided. The harvester has meaningful choices: pay up, fight or flight.
No need for FFA hexes if you have trained and slotted the ability to SAD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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More PvP will make the resources more difficult to acquire. With 11 settlements bordering skymetal hexes, they are already not rare.rare1
re(ə)r/
adjective
Thanks! While you've got that out, can you look up "condescension"? I can never remember what that means. But while you copied all of the definitions of rare, you don't seen to have actually read them. You are saying skymetal hexes are not rare because most people have access to them. But you have no idea how rare the actual resource is. You keep saying you want rare resources to be "truly rare" but you have no idea whether they already are. Skymetal killboxes will certainly make it even more rare, since it will be reclaimed by Pharasma at 25% rates, but who's to say it's not already sufficiently rare? There is no reason to mess with market forces before we establish the market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is a little bit interesting that even bright, thoughtful people categorize one another into 'us' and 'them' and proceed to describe baseless characteristics to whichever group is 'us' and whichever group is 'them' with little regard to the individuals so categorized.
It is as if we somehow imagine that the characteristics we ascribe to the respective groups override the characteristics of the people comprising the group, even though the grouping action was primarily an event in the categorizer.
Then the individuals, perhaps out of some sense of loyalty(?), astonishingly self-identify into the grouping they have been collectively assigned.
Very reminiscent of modern political party dynamics.
We each of us have preferences. Our preferences are unique and individual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see any compelling reason to make skymetal crater hexes FFA. They will already be a source of friction.
If any hex is made FFA, it allows a certain type of playstyle - which is focused on PvP for the sake of PvP. Without FFA hexes, people need reasons to fight; they need to spend DI to engage in wars, or Influence to engage in feuds, or Reputation to just kill people people. Skymetal will in many case be worth it, to spend those assets in order to engage in combat. The targets in skymetal hexes will almost always be worthwhile.
--- break ---
For those who think the game needs FFA hexes, I'd offer this compromise (mostly as a thought experiment): any settlement should be able to designate their hexes as FFA for PvP, to allow Not Blue Shoot It security. The FFA designation would apply to all of their hexes, it would be open for PvP 24/7, and it could only be changed after some long period, like a week or a month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now, I could reliably go and gank harvesters for their skymetal with little consequence.
Implying that stupid people will reliably go into FFA grey hexes and attempt to harvest without defenses or backup, no matter how often they are ganked doing it.
I don't think that's how this dynamic would play out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be fair "they" started itIt is a little bit interesting that even bright, thoughtful people categorize one another into 'us' and 'them' and proceed to describe baseless characteristics to whichever group is 'us' and whichever group is 'them' with little regard to the individuals so categorized.
It is as if we somehow imagine that the characteristics we ascribe to the respective groups override the characteristics of the people comprising the group, even though the grouping action was primarily an event in the categorizer.
Then the individuals, perhaps out of some sense of loyalty(?), astonishingly self-identify into the grouping they have been collectively assigned.
Very reminiscent of modern political party dynamics.
We each of us have preferences. Our preferences are unique and individual.
Lol, I think that's something "we" can all agree on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the risk (opportunity?) of seeming like I'm stepping outside the category/group I might likely be assigned to, I'll toss in my thoughts (and I'll try to stay on topic this time).
First, some people seem to be getting rather heated when all that has been suggested is a suggestion. None of us have any more ability to make these suggestions become reality than anyone else. Second, all our intended play styles are subject to possible changes in game mechanics. As much as we hope to be able to play our particular way, the game needs to be designed based on the Developer's vision. We've all had to adjust in various ways (intended alignments, roles, locations, etc.) as the game has been fleshed out.
As much as I find Guurzak and Areks to be "bright, thoughtful people," I do not think making sky-metal hexes FFA is necessary. Like any other resource, I think supply and demand will dictate the needed level of risk vs reward. If sky-metal is that valuable, people are already going to find ways to fight over it (e.g. have running feuds with the groups most likely active in their closest sky-metal hex, join factions most likely opposed with those most active in their neighboring sky-metal hex, learn to SAD, hire bandits, etc.). I also think that if sky-metal is that valuable, GW will make those few hexes sufficiently nasty enough so that mining it is truly difficult and unsafe...even without the other players trying to beat you to it...or beat on you to get to it. If it becomes stupidly valuable, it may be one of those circumstances that Ryan described - where you are willing to take the reputation hit for the sake of your immediate community (e.g. company, settlement, nation, etc.).
It's this last part that raises more questions. At what point is a commodity so valuable that trashing your reputation to obtain it is seen as a meaningful sacrifice? The reputation system is mainly designed to discourage the kinds of behavior that some label as unmeaningful, unsanctioned, pointless, etc. But if your winning your settlement some of the most precious material in the game, isn't that a meaningful action? True, the individual is still paying the price (a reputation hit), but their reason for the rep drop is hardly as meaningless as killing someone because its fun.
What about his settlement? Is he still welcomed as a valuable member - provided training even with his low reputation - for having sacrificed so greatly for their cause? Is that settlement still viewed as sponsoring low reputation play in the same way as if they harbored griefers?
Just some questions to ponder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...It's this last part that raises more questions. At what point is a commodity so valuable that trashing your reputation to obtain it is seen as a meaningful sacrifice? The reputation system is mainly designed to discourage the kinds of behavior that some label as unmeaningful, unsanctioned, pointless, etc. But if your...
My thought is that there is a risk to be associated to uncoupling the reputation mechanic from 'meaningful' in the context of PvP that should be closely evaluated.
If we admit exceptions then exceptions will quickly become the norm. Either the reputation mechanic should be applied game-wide or it should be discarded altogether.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being,
I'm not suggesting we get rid of reputation. Rather, it has always been presented as a way to control PvP that is not meaningful. I'm simply suggesting that on the spectrum of meaningful to pointless, I'm not sure the reputation system can be as black and white as some want it to be. If the Devs wanted it that black and white, they could easily make no one attackable unless you were at war, in a feud, flagged as a criminal, etc.
That they left that door open begs the question as to when is reputation dropping behavior still viewed as meaningful?
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If we admit exceptions then exceptions will quickly become the norm. Either the reputation mechanic should be applied game-wide or it should be discarded altogether.
This is the logic behind "zero tolerance" policies and other nonsensical behaviors where people substitute strict enforcement of one-size-fits-all rules for actual intelligence and good judgement. It's certainly easier to implement all-or-nothing rules, but easier is not synonymous with better. Carefully managed exceptions make almost any rule better when looking at real world outcomes.
There are 9 grey hexes on the map. I specifically chose them because they're rare and avoidable, and could not become the exception that devoured the rule. The only way 9 FFA hexes could transform the norm would be if a major fraction of the population was clustering into those hexes, presumably because they're having fun there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the logic behind "zero tolerance" policies and other nonsensical (...)Political "opinion", not fact.
As we are debating something yet to be seen and things in alpha are said to be in flux, everything stated here is opinion.
You might as well have just said "Look WORDS!"
As the devs have contradicted themselves and changed their mind in the past there is no reason to take anything they said as 100% static.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs I didn't think you were recommending we discard rep.
If 'meaningfulness' is to be quantifiable, a prerequisite to programming and automation, and the measure of 'meaning' in this context is character reputation, then I would argue it should either apply universally or not at all because then we are attempting to apply the qualitative, personal, subjective form of 'meaningfulness' instead of something a computer program can evaluate true or false.
Personal or subjective evaluations of 'meaningful' is qualitative rather than quantitative.
Qualitative evaluation is subjective and non-numeric. Quantitative is objective and numeric, and something that can be programmed.
Qualitative meaningfulness provides your 'spectrum'. Quantifiable 'meaningfulness' is indeed back & white, or binary. An automated system requires the binary type.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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This is the logic behind "zero tolerance" policies and other nonsensical (...)Political "opinion", not fact.As we are debating something yet to be seen and things in alpha are said to be in flux, everything stated here is opinion.
You might as well have just said "Look WORDS!"
As the devs have contradicted themselves and changed their mind in the past there is no reason to take anything they said as 100% static.
Yeah, but anyway, calling "zero tolerance" policies a nonsense has IRL political ramification.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If we admit exceptions then exceptions will quickly become the norm. Either the reputation mechanic should be applied game-wide or it should be discarded altogether.This is the logic behind "zero tolerance" policies and other nonsensical behaviors where people substitute strict enforcement of one-size-fits-all rules for actual intelligence and good judgement.
No, it is a digital environment rather than analog. The system has to add and subtract to evaluate meaning. Your habitual use of meaningfulness in contrast, one natural to human beings including myself, is indeed a spectrum as Hobbs pointed out. The issue is that a computer is a binary system. Any spectrum a binary based system develops is exceedingly complex, weighting factors, balancing positives and negatives in a manner approaching the intelligence of a human brain. Admirable to propose, IBM's Watson supercomputer program should give anyone pause before deciding it is feasible. An human GM can adequately evaluate such things, but it isn't something GW is likely able to code, and if they could then they should be working for DARPA.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which AeT community is complaining that it is too far from a sky metal hex? Of these, which lacks that the ability to move to a prime location close to sky metal? Are you saying that your community has a prime location with some negatives for which others must be subjected to PvP?
Others must pay for your short sidedness, short sidedness which you could correct but prefer to make others suffer?
Why do these hexes, which you could be near to, need to be treated special? Too hard for you and you do not want to change site? And you are a small site which needs help!
Wow... lay off the kool-aid bro.
Again, in the interest of rare materials actually being RARE. I would think that the most common distance to a skymetal hex would not be 1 hex distance.
My intention is not to make anyone "suffer". My statement is simple, with the current layout, which cannot be changed, T3 materials will not be RARE. If a 1/3 of the server population has them, they aren't going to be rare. Right now, 1/3 of the settlements are right next to skymetal hexes. Stop avoiding the actual point of the discussion.
Everyone can't have the best stuff otherwise its not the best. Its mundane. Nothing anyone can say will change that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am still unclear what leads anyone to think that FFA PVP will make starmetal "more rare" than design will...
It seems to me, all that will happen is more energy will be put into harvesting it.
I am still unconvinced that the FFA PVP doorway should be opened (consequence free) in this way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed, Kool-Aid is inferior. Crystal Lite Cherry-Pomegranite ftw.
@Bringslite FFA PvP will make starmetal more rare because those who can most efficiently mine it will have to form armies and use serious logistics to go get it unless they want to simply mine it only to be ganked and have only 25% of what is mined brought to market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, but anyway, calling "zero tolerance" policies a nonsense has IRL political ramification.This is the logic behind "zero tolerance" policies and other nonsensical (...)Political "opinion", not fact.As we are debating something yet to be seen and things in alpha are said to be in flux, everything stated here is opinion.
You might as well have just said "Look WORDS!"
As the devs have contradicted themselves and changed their mind in the past there is no reason to take anything they said as 100% static.
Zero tolerance is not an accurate depiction of Being's stance IMO.
If a "reputation hit" occurs in "skymetal hex" then (reputation hit = "reputation hit" x .5)
You just halved a reputation hit. The same way they factor in the reputation of your target in deciding how much rep you lose, they can factor in a variable for where that hit takes place.
Its not a 1 or a 0. Its somewhere in between... a shade of grey.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am still unconvinced that the FFA PVP doorway should be opened (consequence free) in this way.
Honestly, I'm not convinced it should either. I don't think anything bad will happen to the game if we don't do this, and I can see potential downsides if we do. But I can also see potential upsides, and I think those are worth carefully considering the risks for.
I also think that this particular area of the design space is one where democratic reaction is a very poor indicator of future outcomes. The overwhelming majority of UO players thought they wanted Trammel, and ended up cancelling their subs when they got it. The fact that a large number of posters in this thread are very vocally opposed to the idea does not inherently mean that it's a bad one.
I think that the idea of matching risk to reward has a lot of merit, and I think that increasing the risk in the highest-reward hexes should not be a purely PVE function; by design, other players are the greatest challenges in this game. Whether emergent player behavior under the standard ruleset is enough to increase the PVP risk of those hexes commensurately with their rewards is something we're going to have to wait and see.
In the abstract, the idea of somehow changing the rules in the grey hexes to make the risk qualitatively different there appeals to me a lot, as a separate matter from what that rule change actually is. I'm not sure what a different change from "make the hex FFA 24x7" would look like but I'd certainly be open to discussing one.
Making the zones reputation free but not alignment free would strongly favor Evil characters over Good; I don't think that's the solution.