Should starfall hexes be FFA?


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Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
That reeks of a "guilty-until-proven-innocent" mindset, so I hope you can clarify it for me.

I reckon if you're CE, you're guilty of something, we just might not yet know of what.

Goblin Squad Member

If you're not guilty of something, you will be soon, or you won't stay Chaotic Evil? :-)


Which is kinda why the alignment system isn't roleplayer-friendly (those who want to be guilty IC have to be guilty OOC), but I digress.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:
Being wrote:
If we admit exceptions then exceptions will quickly become the norm. Either the reputation mechanic should be applied game-wide or it should be discarded altogether.

This is the logic behind "zero tolerance" policies and other nonsensical behaviors where people substitute strict enforcement of one-size-fits-all rules for actual intelligence and good judgement. It's certainly easier to implement all-or-nothing rules, but easier is not synonymous with better. Carefully managed exceptions make almost any rule better when looking at real world outcomes.

There are 9 grey hexes on the map. I specifically chose them because they're rare and avoidable, and could not become the exception that devoured the rule. The only way 9 FFA hexes could transform the norm would be if a major fraction of the population was clustering into those hexes, presumably because they're having fun there.

Very well said.

I would go so far as to say that the point of having a reputation system that punishes PvP in a game that desires to use PvP as it's primary content is to have exceptions for meaningful cases.

I think a tiny fraction of the map with highly valuable resources in comparison to the rest of the map constitute an area where all PvP is meaningful, so the lack of a rep hit makes perfect sense.

When you have areas people know they can go to to enjoy a high probability of PvP and get great loot, that is a mechanic which provides a carrot to engage in meaningful PvP against targets who know they are putting themselves in danger, as opposed to meaningless PvP against random targets.

Goblin Squad Member

Your arguments for FFA PvP in these hexes make no sense. A person will have to invest heavily to be able to gather these resources whereas you think you get to just take your PvP skills and attack without loss? This is not meaningful in the way the system has been described to us. It is an attempt to veil the desire to be a Murderhobo. There will be plenty of fighting and murders over these resources as is and the investment in skills to gather these resources should not mean your just everyone's victim. You want meaningful FFA mechanics build it into player settlements of the low reps where greedy high reps might want to make money but need large guard forces not to just be more cash in the bandits pocket. Go one step further and let the worst types in game align themselves with pve enemy types and get flagged as allied to those types. This would make them dynamic parts of the static pve gameplay. Allow low reps settlement guard types to be the bandits others would see adventuring. This would probably be OE stuff but would give the PvP types the FFA area they want. There has not been a single compelling argument for star metal hexes being FFA.

Goblin Squad Member

Let me educate you because clearly you folks over at TEO and TSV need it.

If you consult the landrush map you may note that there are several times as many settlements as starfall hexes making the absolute scarcest type of hex by far.

Why would the most valuable types of materials be made exclusive to hexes that are both scarce and unclaimable?

Because they are INTENDED to be highly contested.

Greatest risk yields the greatest rewards. That is the engine that drives PvP oriented titles. You aren't meant to gain the greatest money while sitting right outside your settlement surfing porn on one screen while your character extracts ultra-valuable materials on the other.

You're meant to go put your neck on the line if you want the most profit per minute, and go surf porn next to your city if you want large quantities of cheap crap.

The fact you may have to train more skills to extract it only reinforces my point. This is meant to be extracted by well established characters. The kind who have connections and money to make sure they have people covering their butts while they mine.

The wealth these players pull from the ground makes them more dangerous but it also makes them more desirable targets.

This is a universal theme you will find in almost every title of the sort.

EVE- The lower security space you go to the more valuable the ore and the larger the payout for PvE. These high value NPCs take more skills to kill than those found in high sec space and the most valuable ore only found in 0.0 (Mercoxit) is also the most skill intensive to mine.

Darkfall- The farther you go from the safezones the higher the danger level of the zone. The most powerful monsters and highest rate of rare drops are both found in danger level 4 and 5 zones.

Mortal Online- The ores needed to make the most valuable metals in the game are found near Gaul Kor. The only city that is constantly a lawless zone. These ores take the highest skill levels to extract.

Risk vs. reward. The fact so many people are having such a hard time wrapping their heads around this just shows how much so many of you have to learn.

I would sincerely hope the reputation mechanic is meant more to protect people who don't want to be abused by everyone they meet during general play than rich/whiny PvEers who can't handle a little more risk while they pull vast amounts of wealth from scarce/contested areas with limited supplies.

Goblin Squad Member

I'd also like to point out that if these hexes AREN'T made no rep loss zones, since they are unclaimable, I can train up unaffiliated alts and go hit all the ones near TEO/TSV and if you want to do a damn thing about it, you'll have to lose rep.

So either I make it home with scarce/valuable resources and deprive your harvesters of them or you lose rep. It's a win/win for me.

I was planning to use my DT to feed money/gear to my PvP main anyway. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Let me educate you because clearly you folks over at TEO and TSV need it.

Seriously? Don't be bitter and uncivil. I played Darkfall with you and you were pleasant and informed. But you got to shake this.

Goblin Squad Member

eve - starfall hex not in a city and has no guards...null sec
darkfall - Strongest mobs spawn in starfall hex and need the high end skills...bout the same
Mortal - cannot claim starfall hex...Lawless

your examples pretty much describe how the hexes already are

Goblin Squad Member

Because....

There's coments there's calamity of somethis more; and swear thing afterprises of the pangs of deat fly take come oppresolence doth whose bodkin? Who would fards of troud morthy to be: to sleep to bear the question: who would be what we hue opposings a slings of action delay, the what flesh is hear, this not of of the and sweathe proud moment makes consummatient merit of so love, or insolence those thus rath, the under a sea of outrageous more; and things of death whose bodkin? Who would fardels bea?

...that's why.

Goblin Squad Member

FMS Trippic wrote:

eve - starfall hex not in a city and has no guards...null sec

darkfall - Strongest mobs spawn in starfall hex and need the high end skills...bout the same
Mortal - cannot claim starfall hex...Lawless

your examples pretty much describe how the hexes already are

The point is if I want to go harvest a Starfall hex you have to be at war with me to do anything about it.

From all reports in the alpha low rep characters are penalized so quickly they become unplayable in relatively short order.

This basically means I can make an unaffiliated alt and start go hitting starfall hexes prettymuch risk free. With SAD's being relegated to a factional mechanic I'm prettymuch entirely safe unless I join the merchant faction.

That doesn't sound very dangerous or contested to me. It sounds like part of the growing PFO forum culture that wants everything handed to it on a silver platter without having to risk anything to get ahead.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Let me educate you because clearly you folks over at TEO and TSV need it.

RESPECT MA' AUTHORITEEEEEEEEY !

Goblin Squad Member

Most of the arguments for FFA PvP in starfall hexes I've seen could be applied to the game world as a whole. Why should only the starfall hexes and the particular resource they hold benefit from FFA PvP? If it is the best way to create a fun and rewarding game experience for the majority, why not extend it to the entire world?

Or would this be a good thing specifically in these hexes and bad in the rest of the world?

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:
Most of the arguments for FFA PvP in starfall hexes I've seen could be applied to the game world as a whole.

Only if you have no control over resource extraction in claimable territory. If the controllers of the territory don't have some kind of control over who can and can't gather resources in their territory or at least gain some benefit from having people gathering in hexes they control then there is absolutely no reason that you couldn't go gather all their resources on unaffiliated alts and thumb your noses at them or watch them lose reputation if they try to stop you.

That's why I'm fully expecting control over a POI or settlement will give you control of the harvesting rights in the surrounding hexes by OE if not EE.

So if I create ResourceDrainer CantTouchThis and go start draining all the TEO/TSV hexes of resources they can either pull my extraction rights or implement a tax so I'm actually benefiting them.

Wurner wrote:

Why should only the starfall hexes and the particular resource they hold benefit from FFA PvP? If it is the best way to create a fun and rewarding game experience for the majority, why not extend it to the entire world?

Or would this be a good thing specifically in these hexes and bad in the rest of the world?

Because those gathering resources in starfall hexes will be more experienced players more capable of defending themselves. Also you can play the game and have an extremely full experience without ever stepping foot in a starfall hex. I'm assuming the demand for base materials will always be higher since there will be more people using it. Just like high sec industrialists can import scarce minerals from null sec I'm guessing those not desiring elevated danger levels during extraction would buy their mithril and adamantine from those brave enough to harvest in those areas if they want to work with those materials.

Basically it allows the majority of the population who are either too inexperienced or too afraid to venture into starmetal hexes to go about their daily peaceful lives while those craving high profits with high risk can venture out to the starmetal hexes.

It's not something you should force on everyone but it's something that's entirely reasonable to put in place for only 9 hexes of the map.

The problem is too many people have the "gimme" mentality and they can't stand to be excluded from any content that doesn't fit their desired playstyle even when the point of that content is to offer a valuable incentive for people to show some spine and risk their necks.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
FMS Trippic wrote:

eve - starfall hex not in a city and has no guards...null sec

darkfall - Strongest mobs spawn in starfall hex and need the high end skills...bout the same
Mortal - cannot claim starfall hex...Lawless

your examples pretty much describe how the hexes already are

The point is if I want to go harvest a Starfall hex you have to be at war with me to do anything about it.

From all reports in the alpha low rep characters are penalized so quickly they become unplayable in relatively short order.

This basically means I can make an unaffiliated alt and start go hitting starfall hexes prettymuch risk free. With SAD's being relegated to a factional mechanic I'm prettymuch entirely safe unless I join the merchant faction.

That doesn't sound very dangerous or contested to me. It sounds like part of the growing PFO forum culture that wants everything handed to it on a silver platter without having to risk anything to get ahead.

Except for the tier 3 mobs vs your lone gatherer with most likely low combat skills. Before the response of bringing more people with, if your not "lone" then you're not really unaffiliated

Goblin Squad Member

When I use the word unaffilated it's code for "belongs to a starter company."

Group or no group you can't declare war on them without starting a war on all unaffilated newbs. If they even allow starter companies to be war decced.

I could sit right there and declare "I'M ANDIUS AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF" and there is nothing TEO/TSV can do without rep loss or violating their core values.

Believe me I'm not above using that to my advantage, I've ALWAYS fought extremely dirty.

Goblin Squad Member

Thank you Andius for taking the time to answer me in detail, I hadn't thought about how things may play out differently between controllable and uncontrollable hexes. In the light of that and other things in your post I understand the suggestion better, although I still don't subscribe to the idea.

As many others have said, there a plenty of reasons to believe there will be higher risk in those hexes. If there was ever a situation where it would be worth it to lose reputation in order to drive someone away or steal valuable resources I'd think it was in those hexes, where the stakes are higher. And I don't think you can harvest the best material with an unaffiliated alt, I think you'll need training that requires membership in an advanced settlement. I also think you need to bring the best, most expensive gathering equipment, making death non-trivial.

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
Personally I would far prefer that rather than making starmetal hexes FFA that they actually increase the rep and alignment penalties for PVP my at least 2 or 3 fold maybe even more

Would you like to expand on the reasoning behind your suggestion?

Goblin Squad Member

Has it been announced/determined that S&Ds will be an inter-factional ability only?

That seems like the perfect solution to the issue. The issue being, if you wish to avoid reputation loss, you can only attack opposing factions, companies under a feud, or settlements at war. This seems a little clumsy and heavy handed to secure a valuable mat from a small group consisting of one gatherer and his guards. The small scale mechanic of S&D seems perfect...if it can be used against non-factional opposition.

In addition, claiming the risk profile for gathering the most valuable resource in game is enough simply because there are high CR mobs, doesn't gel with me. The mat is being gathered by players, for player crafters to use and sell to other players, to then be used in PvP against other players. Mobs are a part of the equation, but they should not be the only risk associated with it.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

When I use the word unaffilated it's code for "belongs to a starter company."

Group or no group you can't declare war on them without starting a war on all unaffilated newbs. If they even allow starter companies to be war decced.

I could sit right there and declare "I'M ANDIUS AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF" and there is nothing TEO/TSV can do without rep loss or violating their core values.

I don't see why it should be a problem. If evil dark Nihimon, the "Andius' toys breaker", wants the reward of keeping everything for himself, he should have the risk of losing reputation.

Goblin Squad Member

Pretty much how I see it. The fact that people think PvP is being punished in this game tells me they don't understand the game very well. PvP is not being punished. Undeclared PvP is being punished.

I see there being plenty of PvP, even undeclared, in these hexes that we don't need to worry about FFA PvP. If we need to worry about FFA PvP, then they made the resource to common or not valuable enough.

Yes, Andius and his buddies can start farming the hex down south on their unaffiliated alts. TEO/TSV can hop on unaffiliated alts and hit up the crater next to Aragorn just as easy. I'm not seeing an issue with this.

Goblin Squad Member

i would still say the Tier 3 mobs have their way with said newb gatherer

Goblin Squad Member

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Crash_00 wrote:

Pretty much how I see it. The fact that people think PvP is being punished in this game tells me they don't understand the game very well. PvP is not being punished. Undeclared PvP is being punished.

I see there being plenty of PvP, even undeclared, in these hexes that we don't need to worry about FFA PvP. If we need to worry about FFA PvP, then they made the resource to common or not valuable enough.

Yes, Andius and his buddies can start farming the hex down south on their unaffiliated alts. TEO/TSV can hop on unaffiliated alts and hit up the crater next to Aragorn just as easy. I'm not seeing an issue with this.

I'm not so sure that "unaffiliated alt"-gathering of the highest tier resources is possible. There will be feats/skills required and equipment. Why would gathering of the highest quality resources not require the highest quality feats?

In my mind it makes sense that only advanced settlements, way more advanced than starter settlements, can support the training feats required to harvest the best materials. So you'd have to be a member of an advanced player-run settlement in order to gather the best material.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I could sit right there...
Ryan Dancey wrote:
I think there should be a mechanism to indicate that you are hostile towards another PC, and if that PC doesn't leave the immediate area in a reasonably short period of time you will be able to strike at them without penalty (and vice versa). You don't want to let bandits walk right up to you before you try to drive them off. This effect probably has to be tied to another action like caravaning or harvesting so people don't just use it as a free gank enabler. And it probably should only apply in Wilderness hexes.

Yes, it would work both ways. Your harvester should be able to tell someone approaching him--presumably to warn him off--to back off, or else. Bluffing, or mutual bluffing, is Meaningful Human Interaction.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

Let me educate you because clearly you folks over at TEO and TSV need it.

If you consult the landrush map you may note that there are several times as many settlements as starfall hexes making the absolute scarcest type of hex by far.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to use language to try to humiliate people while making an incorrect point, but let me use your own:

"Let me educate you because clearly you need it." Starfall hexes are NOT the absolute scarcest hex (by far, or even by a little). There are nine of them, while there are only 4 marsh hexes. (Less than half as many)

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I could sit right there...
Ryan Dancey wrote:
I think there should be a mechanism to indicate that you are hostile towards another PC, and if that PC doesn't leave the immediate area in a reasonably short period of time you will be able to strike at them without penalty (and vice versa). You don't want to let bandits walk right up to you before you try to drive them off. This effect probably has to be tied to another action like caravaning or harvesting so people don't just use it as a free gank enabler. And it probably should only apply in Wilderness hexes.
Yes, it would work both ways. Your harvester should be able to tell someone approaching him--presumably to warn him off--to back off, or else. Bluffing, or mutual bluffing, is Meaningful Human Interaction.

"This effect probably has to be tied to another action like caravaning or harvesting so people don't just use it as a free gank enabler."

I interpret that as saying you must be harvesting nearby or in a caravan or some such action to envoke this. So if I'm just sitting there hitting rocks and sending you nasty PMs you can't come run me off. However I actually could run you off since I'm the one harvesting.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Andius the Afflicted wrote:

Let me educate you because clearly you folks over at TEO and TSV need it.

If you consult the landrush map you may note that there are several times as many settlements as starfall hexes making the absolute scarcest type of hex by far.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to use language to try to humiliate people while making an incorrect point, but let me use your own:

"Let me educate you because clearly you need it." Starfall hexes are NOT the absolute scarcest hex (by far, or even by a little). There are nine of them, while there are only 4 marsh hexes. (Less than half as many)

That's a temporary phenomenon. There will be a huge amount of marshland opening up by the time the OE map is released. We just can't see it now because we're not near the river.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh, well, for those without crystal balls, presumably you have a count of the future skyfall hexes in that portion of the map as well?

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

I still don't see how making it FFA enforces meaningful human interaction. All it does is make it an area that you can gank people to your hearts content without any cost.

Keeping the hexes with the reputation limits means that whoever is there harvesting is going to have to make some choices. Do I risk going out alone and getting robbed by someone who doesn't care about rep, do I go try and harvest someone else's hexes on the other side of the map just to stick it to them but then possibly get killed wasting and hour of travel time, do I go out harvesting and bring a company with that doesn't mind taking the rep hit, and more and more. Keeping the rep in place enforces people having to make meaningful decisions on how they want to handle the situation. Making it FFA in no way (that I can see) enforces meaningful decisions.

I think some area that is FFA would be good, maybe an arena or something similar. I don't think FFA stargall hexes make sense. There is going to be plenty of conflict around these areas to begin with what does it add to essentially say "Now anyone can come in and murder anyone you want just for the heck of it without having any reprecussions."

If they did want to potentially increase the risk I could see lowering the rep hits in these areas by maybe 10% or something but not completely getting rid of them.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Oh, well, for those without crystal balls, presumably you have a count of the future skyfall hexes in that portion of the map as well?

Crystal balls? I pulled it off the Goblinworks site:

A More Detailed Map

Sorry but clearly you are the one who needed the education in this instance as well. Count for yourself but I can tell you at a glance that marsh hexes are far more plentiful than starfall hexes.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I could sit right there...
Ryan Dancey wrote:
I think there should be a mechanism to indicate that you are hostile towards another PC, and if that PC doesn't leave the immediate area in a reasonably short period of time you will be able to strike at them without penalty (and vice versa). You don't want to let bandits walk right up to you before you try to drive them off. This effect probably has to be tied to another action like caravaning or harvesting so people don't just use it as a free gank enabler. And it probably should only apply in Wilderness hexes.
Yes, it would work both ways. Your harvester should be able to tell someone approaching him--presumably to warn him off--to back off, or else. Bluffing, or mutual bluffing, is Meaningful Human Interaction.

"This effect probably has to be tied to another action like caravaning or harvesting so people don't just use it as a free gank enabler."

I interpret that as saying you must be harvesting nearby or in a caravan or some such action to envoke this. So if I'm just sitting there hitting rocks and sending you nasty PMs you can't come run me off. However I actually could run you off since I'm the one harvesting.

And when the group your taunting actually has a Harvester or Caravan type guy who can do this, your plan hits a wall

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
I don't see why it should be a problem. If evil dark Nihimon, the "Andius' toys breaker", wants the reward of keeping everything for himself, he should have the risk of losing reputation.

Based on all reports from alpha losing reputation isn't a "risk" it's a "SURPRISE! YOUR CHARACTER IS USELESS!!!" kind of thing.

I'll be more than happy to watch Nihimon utterly destroy his character if that's the route he chooses. Hell, I'll sit there and let him kill me even if I think I can win. The damage he'll do to himself will be worth far more to me than any amount of rare ore I can fit in my inventory. Honestly if you guys come trash your rep to run me out I'll be even happier than if you leave me alone and let me steal all your rare ore.

Hell you know what. No point arguing. I trust Goblinworks can see how broken this would be but if they can't I'll be sure to abuse the hell out of it when the game comes out. No faster way to get a broken mechanic fixed than to exploit it for all it's worth until something gets done about it.

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:
In my mind it makes sense that only advanced settlements, way more advanced than starter settlements, can support the training feats required to harvest the best materials. So you'd have to be a member of an advanced player-run settlement in order to gather the best material.

That would be my guess as well. Commoner is a role, just like Fighter or Rogue. There will be long series of feats to be learned. Dealing with the PvE hazards of a crater hex might also be well beyond the capabilities of Tier 1 feats.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I think there should be a mechanism to indicate that you are hostile towards another PC, and if that PC doesn't leave the immediate area in a reasonably short period of time you will be able to strike at them without penalty (and vice versa). You don't want to let bandits walk right up to you before you try to drive them off. This effect probably has to be tied to another action like caravaning or harvesting so people don't just use it as a free gank enabler. And it probably should only apply in Wilderness hexes.

If we do end up with something that resembles a 30 Second Feud Warning, I think that would accomplish my goals in this thread, but that sort of feature would have to be very carefully designed so as not to make the whole map effectively FFA.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
That would be my guess as well. Commoner is a role, just like Fighter or Rogue. There will be long series of feats to be learned. Dealing with the PvE hazards of a crater hex might also be well beyond the capabilities of Tier 1 feats.

The first part may be true, the 2nd certainly is not. Strength increase from newb to vet is linear while training time (and likely gear value) are exponential. If you're a bit under par to deal with the PVE threats throwing more bodies at it is always a solution.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
...count of the future skyfall hexes...

I count 24 additional Skymetal hexes, and 280 Swamp hexes. Both those counts might be off by one or two, as they were made with only a Mk I Eyeball.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Audoucet wrote:
I don't see why it should be a problem. If evil dark Nihimon, the "Andius' toys breaker", wants the reward of keeping everything for himself, he should have the risk of losing reputation.

Based on all reports from alpha losing reputation isn't a "risk" it's a "SURPRISE! YOUR CHARACTER IS USELESS!!!" kind of thing.

I'll be more than happy to watch Nihimon utterly destroy his character if that's the route he chooses. Hell, I'll sit there and let him kill me even if I think I can win. The damage he'll do to himself will be worth far more to me than any amount of rare ore I can fit in my inventory. Honestly if you guys come trash your rep to run me out I'll be even happier than if you leave me alone and let me steal all your rare ore.

Hell you know what. No point arguing. I trust Goblinworks can see how broken this would be but if they can't I'll be sure to abuse the hell out of it when the game comes out. No faster way to get a broken mechanic fixed than to exploit it for all it's worth until something gets done about it.

Well I don't think that FFA PvP is the solution.

You could ask for some adjustment in the reputation system...

Or you could simply advocate for a "murder threat" system.

You know, most people don't want to just play without any risk, they just don't want to be insta-killed every time they cross the path, of an unknown dude.

I think it would be completely fair, if UNC arrived in a Phaeros hex, giving the gathering parties an ultimatum of 1 minute to everybody to get the f#+$ out of here if they don't want to die. If someone doesn't want to go, then no rep loss for you is perfectly fine.

Goblin Squad Member

You can't really say that, Andius. They have a lot more they can do with PvE to separate low level players from high level players that doesn't affect the PvP power gap.

For example, the Tier 3 PvE enemies could be incredibly resistant to all Tier 1 and 2 keywords. That would make Tier 3 keywords the only reliable way to affect them.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius let me educate you since clearly you need it. This game is not being developed to cater solely to you. This game will have plenty of PvP and that's not a problem. However there is a large contingent that will be drawn by the Pathfinder ip who deserve as much respect as you do. These hexes are already going to be flashpoints, the barrier to entry is already high and your experience in eve has no value at all in this. My understanding to date has been that pve in these hexes will be far harder than pve in null sec mining ops. Also null sec ores are NOT rare at all in this context, they only have a higher barrier to entry. There are already mechanics for aggressing the most likely companies within the system, people will already be grouping to gather there and at least small skirmishes are expected to be the norm. The fact that you think you are more important than others is why so many have no tolerance for you. Play the game with the rest of use or be your Murderhobo self those are your options.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

When I use the word unaffilated it's code for "belongs to a starter company."

Group or no group you can't declare war on them without starting a war on all unaffilated newbs. If they even allow starter companies to be war decced.

I could sit right there and declare "I'M ANDIUS AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF" and there is nothing TEO/TSV can do without rep loss or violating their core values.

Believe me I'm not above using that to my advantage, I've ALWAYS fought extremely dirty.

Remember way back when, you decided what GL's core values were going to be? They haven't changed.

Why do you think that there will be a way to effectively hide from the systems intended to allow feuds and wars, when those aspects of the game are in the design intentionally?

Goblin Squad Member

I would tend to agree with Wurner on this subject as to a low rep alt being able to go to a starfall hex to mine these nodes. Without the highest possible training, and possibly the best gear in which to mine with, a low rep alt would be unsuccessful in this venture. Not to mention, the mobs in the hex that would probably limit the amount of mining even possible. I would tend to think that most of the nodes will not be so randomly placed in the hex without some kind of spawn by it. Thereby increasing the fact that a group, more than just a single individual, will be required to go into a starfall hex to beat back the mobs or defend a position long enough for an accomplished and well equipped harvester to gather the feat at hand.

Therefore, to make the starfall hex, which will already have an abundance of activity, a FFA zone, seems overly exhaustive for what little a group might be even able to achieve. Yes, to the victor goes the spoils, but in a scenario where the harvester gets what was there, and the group has been beaten down by the mobs at the hex just for a company of murderhobos to come up and "finish" them off to take the spoils seems to me a bit over the top! Let the murderhobos take the alignment hit and reputation hit and be done with it.

I am sure this is going to happen anyway, therefore it shouldn't be without some consequence.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
I'm not sure the Gods would suspend their consideration of murdering unflagged innocents as an evil act just because of "ooh! shiny!" metal.

Its not just shiny, its radioactive and has bizarre properties. Each metal was also associated to one of the 7 schools of Thassilonian magic, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for it to affect your behavior.

Also, the gods don't have a say in your alignment. Alignment is a law of physics, just like Universal Gravitation.

Goblin Squad Member

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Whee!

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
...rich...

So this is all an envy thing born of the fact that you aren't in Alpha? Because otherwise that adjective doesn't fit into the rest of what you were, ah, 'educating' us all on.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
...rich...
So this is all an envy thing born of the fact that you aren't in Alpha? Because otherwise that adjective doesn't fit into the rest of what you were, ah, 'educating' us all on.

I was referring to the fact that anyone extracting mithril and adamantine successfully should be rich in-game. Thus able to pay guards and making the fact they aren't PvPers a pretty flimsy excuse to hide behind.

I'm not sure where you pulled any inference about alpha envy from. The context should have clued you in.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Remember way back when, you decided what GL's core values were going to be? They haven't changed.

Actually they have:

Andius wrote:
First and foremost the Great Legionnaires are a military force. We aim to be be the vanguard of the forces against good, riding out to meet it on whatever field it takes.
Andius wrote:
Our goals are not quite as tied to territory as that. GL's purpose is less to carve a single safe area in the game, and more to wage a Golarion-wide crusade against griefers.

You can't fulfill GL's core values quite literally hiding in the corner of the map. TEO is a hijacked corruption of everything it was supposed to stand for. The original intent was to be highly involved in the community and probably the biggest goal was helping ensure new players were protected. It was formed as a direct counter to the usual veteran mentality of sitting off in the corner of the map and expecting newbs to come join you if they want your protection. That's a large part of why I fought so hard to give it location centered between the three starter towns. But regardless I know that declaring war on a newb group stands against everything both GL and TEO stood for.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Malvius012 wrote:
The fact that you think you are more important than others is why so many have no tolerance for you. Play the game with the rest of use or be your Murderhobo self those are your options.

There seems to be this crazy notion in TEO that anyone who doesn't like you is going to go around slaughtering everyone they see and is going to be engaging in meaningless PvP unlike your groups which apparently have the monopoly on meaningful PvP. The Sentinels are not a NBSI or NBRI group. We are NRDS just like TEO. But I also supported these kind of mechanics as a TEO member because I realized they were good for the game:

PvP Zone Types

I don't want the game catered specifically for me. I just don't want a game that was promised to us as a PvP focused title avoiding good features because PvP-averse players will cry too many tears of jealousy if less than 1% of the map is turned into the kind of high risk/high reward area that makes up 50%+ of the map in true murder sims.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

FFA doesn't make it high risk high reward. All it does is make it so that anyone can kill anyone without a negative consequence (read allows griefing for the LOL). Now if you proposed something like there should be a reduction in reputation loss (like others have) that makes more sense and is something a meaningful discussion could be wrapped around.

Again how does FFA make it any more meaningful then simply the fact that these will already be the most contested areas?

Edit* PvP is going to be occurring and drawn to these areas to begin with. Maybe if there was a reduction in rep loss it would drive a little more PvP there. However, removing rep loss altogether only penalizes non-pvp focused people while really only benefiting greifers. I plan to PvP and will likely be a lot of what I do in the final game and I have no problem with the occasional rep lose when the circumstance demands it. However, I don't want to just go to one area (unless it was like an arena) to kill anyone I want without consequences.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

I'm not sure where you pulled any inference about alpha envy from. The context should have clued you in.

For starters the idea that you felt yourself in a position to educate me was a leading indicator. Then to call people unlike you 'rich' and 'whiney' tipped me off that there might be something personal you have invested in your argument. You aren't in alpha, have expressed discomfort with that if I recall correctly, and self-identify as 'afflicted'.

There is plenty of cause already designed into the system as your own argument described. There is no need to suspend the game rules in starmetal hexes in order to encourage what already will prevail there.

Goblin Squad Member

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It's like watching high school girls catfight with each other! This is fantastic!

Personally I think that Andius is, like, a total slut. Did you see that she went out with James? I heard that she puts out, like, all the time.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Oh, well, for those without crystal balls, presumably you have a count of the future skyfall hexes in that portion of the map as well?

Crystal balls? I pulled it off the Goblinworks site:

A More Detailed Map

Sorry but clearly you are the one who needed the education in this instance as well. Count for yourself but I can tell you at a glance that marsh hexes are far more plentiful than starfall hexes.

I don't see any clear indication of starfall hexes on that map, nor do I know the minds of the developers. There are plenty of things that might or might not be starfall hexes. I also haven't seen the rest of the map either. I don't know the developers plans, and neither do you. None of us knows what hexes will be accessible when, and how many of them will be starfall hexes. Your claim that based on the current layout of settlement hexes versus the future expect ratio of starfall hexes proves they will be "Far" more rare than anything else is prognostication, not education.

Even saving the fact that this is the entirety of the map and their intention, 3/4 of the board will need to travel far more extensively to reach swamp than to reach a crater.

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