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Where Eidolons come from, are we the creepy ones?You've been a Paizonian for a couple weeks and already the FAQ machine starts churning.
Bless you, creepy unbound outsider from another dimension. Bless you.
Anyone who burns icicles for warmth is creepy in my book, supernatural or otherwise.
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Anyone who burns icicles for warmth is creepy in my book, supernatural or otherwise.Where Eidolons come from, are we the creepy ones?You've been a Paizonian for a couple weeks and already the FAQ machine starts churning.
Bless you, creepy unbound outsider from another dimension. Bless you.
You're just jealous of my orange juice sprinkles.
What are your top 5 favorite classes? Is there a certain trope you enjoy portraying?
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If you liked Baldur's Gate, I recommend Divinity: Original Sin. It feels so very much like a spiritual cousin to the game.You know, my friend linked that to me a few weeks ago. Two people mentioning it can't be coincidence. I may have to check this out.Aye, the fates decreeth you to play this game.
It's at it's best when playing with a friend.
Considered! Now I just have to wait for that whole "just moved across the country and took an advance to pay off the move so bank accounts are drained" thing to wear off first.
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You've been a Paizonian for a couple weeks and already the FAQ machine starts churning.
Bless you, creepy unbound outsider from another dimension. Bless you.
It's really thanks to you guys on the forums. All I can do is ask. But you can demonstrate. And reasoned measured demonstration full of good examples and math are an excellent way to gather evidence. I used to demonstrate sometimes too, but it seems tacky for a current designer to do it, so I'm going to leave it up to you, my creepy bound humanoid friends and comrades! I will note the +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves against fear on my sheet, however.
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Where Eidolons come from, are we the creepy ones?You've been a Paizonian for a couple weeks and already the FAQ machine starts churning.
Bless you, creepy unbound outsider from another dimension. Bless you.
Yes. Burning ice doesn't work in my dimension. It just melts instead.
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What are your top 5 favorite classes? Is there a certain trope you enjoy portraying?
I like pretty much every class. I usually GM, but my PFS and AP characters for Pathfinder have included:
*Alchemist
*Barbarian
*Bard
*Bloodrager
*Cavalier
*Cleric
*Fighter
*Inquisitor
*Investigator
*Monk
*Ninja
*Oracle
*Paladin
*Shaman
*Slayer
*Sorcerer
*Summoner
*Wizard
Of those characters, I love my alchemist, bard, and summoner because I got to play them in APs, which allowed tons of character development. The summoner and bard, in that order, particularly had a lot of character development and are quite different than they were originally. I have a great story about my summoner in Council of Thieves based on the odd way I portrayed her, but it's a minor spoiler for Council, so I'll withhold it for now.
I like playing all sorts of different tropes. I definitely have different ones for all my characters.
I particularly like playing support characters who also have a sort of hidden strength they can unleash, since that way I get to make everyone else better most of the time so they can have lots of fun (since I have fun watching my support turn the team into a powerhouse, even if I seem to accomplish little myself), and I can save my most powerful effect for if the party is in trouble. If I never use it? It still doesn't break my verisimilitude for the character, since they were saving it in case an even harder encounter showed up next. This gets to be troublesome for a witch, who has all their best stuff at-will so it would make no sense to save it for later, which is one reason I haven't played one yet.
I also like picking an odd concept and optimizing from there. For instance, Grace the paladin is clumsy (low Dexterity--7 actually) and refuses to wear armor. This lets other characters shine in most fights, but when she smites, that makes up for the low Dexterity and she actually has pretty good AC (AC 26 with mage armor up against the chosen smite target at level 2. Not shabby).
How do you feel about effects such as the Agile weapon property, the Guided Hand feat, the Lore Oracle's Sidestep secret and the scarred witch doctor's constitution dependency?
Do you think there is room for more feats, archetypes or items that allow you to use other ability scores in place of the normal attribute?
Could you talk a little bit about your thoughts or concerns regarding the design of such concepts?
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Mark:
In your opinion, when do PCs cross over from "the best that reality has to offer" (i.e., olympic athletes, not quite breaking real world records yet, etc) and into "beyond what real people are capable of" (i.e., shattering earth records, doing the impossible, "superheroes", etc)? Never? Always from 1st level? Cross the threshold at Xth level?
How do you feel about effects such as the Agile weapon property, the Guided Hand feat, the Lore Oracle's Sidestep secret and the scarred witch doctor's constitution dependency?
Do you think there is room for more feats, archetypes or items that allow you to use other ability scores in place of the normal attribute?
Could you talk a little bit about your thoughts or concerns regarding the design of such concepts?
I feel that these kinds of abilities are one of the two generally most dangerous weapons for a designer or freelancer to be playing with (the other being increasing all bonuses of a specific type), and they should be considered extremely carefully before adding them. This is because some of the game's balance depends on different features being tied to different abilities, and removing a dependency is one of the most powerful things you can possibly do in terms of freeing up resources in both character creation and character advancement. Also, if you add enough of these to the game, you can literally marginalize an ability such that it doesn't do anything any more for a character.
That's not to say that there is never a place for them in the game, but many of the ones you listed are accessed too easily, leading to ubiquitous possession of items or multiclassed dips. Ideally, the option would be closer to other available options in a typical situation when someone would want to buy it. For instance, the agile weapon property is typically going to show up in the game after stat boosting items (since it costs twice as much to have a +1 agile as a +2 stat item) and level 4 stat raises, so you'll probably see people with agile having at least an 8-point gap between their Strength penalty and their Dexterity bonus to start (7 Strength because they knew agile was available, 22 Dex starting with 17 +2 race + 1 stat bump + 2 item), growing even larger as time goes on. When compared to the other best option to add pure damage as a +1 weapon, elemental options like flaming, we see that those options add 3.5 damage on average, don't multiply on a critical hit, and are more likely to be resisted away than they are to add extra damage due to vulnerability. Agile is more similar to holy, which adds 7 non-critting damage (still less than 8) against only evil targets (so 0 to non-evil) but also helps bypass DR. Of course, by the time a +1 holy weapon is more likely, a 9 or even rarely a 10 point gap between Strength and Dex bonuses is possible too. So from this analysis, it seems that agile is potentially a fair weapon property for inclusion in the game, but perhaps that it should be a +2 weapon equivalency, rather than +1. You might ask "But doesn't that make it pretty awful for someone with 12 Strength and 16 Dex?" The answer there is that those characters aren't buying agile anyway unless they were just investing for when their Dex was going to rise much higher. And anyway, they can still go flaming, holy, or the like if that would be better for them.
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Mark:
In your opinion, when do PCs cross over from "the best that reality has to offer" (i.e., olympic athletes, not quite breaking real world records yet, etc) and into "beyond what real people are capable of" (i.e., shattering earth records, doing the impossible, "superheroes", etc)? Never? Always from 1st level? Cross the threshold at Xth level?
Both immediately and never.
Immediately--The game rules, particularly the Take 10 rule, shatter reality right away. Trust me. I have been in Physical Education class in grade school and failed to climb a knotted rope with no wall to brace against it. In fact, very few of the students climbed that rope to the very top, only the most athletic. But the listed DC is 5, so taking 10, any character (even with 1 Strength) should be able to do it automatically.
Never--When you think of a superhero, really, it's best to think of that superhero's "style", not whether or not they are a superhero, and the same is true of a PC. For example, Batman. If Batman suddenly simply leapt 1000 feat in the air by the power of his own two legs, began to fly just because he could, shot laser beams out of his eyes, controlled the weather, and possessed telekinesis, well it would be a pretty weird issue of the comic, like when he went to Zur-En-Arrh and became super as a novelty. Batman should be able to be awesome in his particular way, without gaining any superpowers, and still compete with (and surpass) other superheroes who have powers as part of their superhero "style". I mean, how many times has Batman defeated Superman when he has to? So in conclusion, I think it would cheapen the awesomeness of Batman if he just suddenly started gaining superpowers because the comic authors felt he needed them to participate with the rest of the Justice League, but that does mean it's up to the comic authors to help describe how awesome Batman can be without such powers. Being Batman rather than Superman should be a choice of "style", and "style" should be preserved without being violated, but any "style" you choose should lead to an awesome superhero.
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I... feel like that wasn't really answering my question, except that certain pieces of it did by accident.
Being Batman rather than Superman should be a choice of "style" ... any "style" you choose should lead to an awesome superhero.
Though you listed it under "never", this seems like it more fits "always" in the context of what I was trying to ask.
The "never" for my question would have been "the PCs never reach a point where they're supposed to be superheroes, regardless of 'style'; they're always bound to reality".
Your response sounds more like "everybody gets to be a superhero of one kind or another".
I... feel like that wasn't really answering my question, except that certain pieces of it did by accident.
Being Batman rather than Superman should be a choice of "style" ... any "style" you choose should lead to an awesome superhero.Though you listed it under "never", this seems like it more fits "always" in the context of what I was trying to ask.
The "never" for my question would have been "the PCs never reach a point where they're supposed to be superheroes, regardless of 'style'; they're always bound to reality".
Your response sounds more like "everybody gets to be a superhero of one kind or another".
Not quite--the wrinkle there was that Batman is a superhero whose "style" is that he is bound by reality in many ways (in comparison to his counterparts), even though he also is a superhero, kicks ass, and is awesome. So what I'm saying is that since this is a game, it has components that exist such that true reality is never a fair comparator, but on the other hand, that doesn't mean some character concepts or classes should not have a "style" like Batman does. In other words, it wouldn't be good to have a world where Batman, who has defeated god entities and other such things before, cannot be classified as a high-level character.
Summary: Bound to reality is a "style", not an actual perfect simulationist fact.
lots of awesome stuff
That... Wasn't quite the answer I was hoping for, but I really appreciate you taking the time to think it through and type it out. Thank you. :)
lots of awesome stuffThat... Wasn't quite the answer I was hoping for, but I really appreciate you taking the time to think it through and type it out. Thank you. :)
Now, dangerous doesn't mean never use. It just means be very cognizant that you are playing around with radioactive materials. You have to realize what the actual ability scores are going to look like and balance around that, without caring about the fact that your design doesn't benefit the marginal case very much where the two stats are very close to each other (since the marginal case wouldn't spend character resources to gain your new rules element anyway). Convert the "switch stat X to stat Y" into a baseline gap in stats of a character you would expect to take that rules element and make sure you would be OK with designing an element that flat-out gave that kind of a bonus for the same cost.
This is also a completely personal aesthetic, and it only necessarily holds true for myself alone.
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You have to realize what the actual ability scores are going to look like and balance around that, without caring about the fact that your design doesn't benefit the marginal case any more where the two stats are very close to each other (since the marginal case wouldn't spend character resources to gain your new rules element anyway). Convert the "switch stat X to stat Y" into a baseline gap in stats of a character you would expect to take that rules element and make sure you would be OK with designing an element that flat-out gave that kind of a bonus for the same cost.
This is interesting, especially with your example of agile weapons.
You say that the price of agile needs to represent the full +8 (or whatever) gap between 7 STR and 2X DEX, but that comparison seems off to me.
That is, why are you comparing "guy built for Option X" against "guy who's also built for Option X without actually having Option X"? Shouldn't it be compared against "guy built for the same goal as Option X but along a different path"? In this case, shouldn't the damage output of AgileGuy be compared against STRGuy?
That is, is a +8 damage bonus that takes you from 1d6-2 up to 1d6+6 really the same as a +8 damage bonus that takes you from 2d6+9 up to 2d6+17?
If we're looking at damage bonuses, shouldn't we be looking at where the bonus puts you in relation to existing damage options? Should a bonus that lets someone with abysmal damage kinda-sorta catch up to the baseline standard really be compared against a flat bonus of the same size that could go on top of existing damage builds?
Holy is a 7-point(ish) damage boost that can be stacked on top of already high damage. By comparison, agile is a comparable numerical boost but only applies if you're starting so low that you end up still being behind.
Are those really comparable?
I would think the thing you'd have to really watch with something like agile is not "how would this be priced if its effect were a damage bonus for anyone/everyone?", but rather "what does this get you in addition to almost catching you up on damage?"
Thoughts?
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Since we're ragging on agile, I'll also point out its the kind of thing that makes a huge difference between characters that are played at first level and those that are created at a higher level.
Since we're ragging on agile, I'll also point out its the kind of thing that makes a huge difference between characters that are played at first level and those that are created at a higher level.
This. What has that guy with 7 Str been doing until he can afford an agile weapon?
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Since we're ragging on agile, I'll also point out its the kind of thing that makes a huge difference between characters that are played at first level and those that are created at a higher level.This. What has that guy with 7 Str been doing until he can afford an agile weapon?
Casting blood money way too many times.
Holy is a 7-point(ish) damage boost that can be stacked on top of already high damage. By comparison, agile is a comparable numerical boost but only applies if you're starting so low that you end up still being behind.
Are those really comparable?
Yes, they are really comparable, for that character. And the difference between the values will grow and grow over time. It matters for that character because that is the character who will take the stat conversion, plain and simple. And that is the only way you can make a fair comparison, ignoring all the other factors that go into character design. Comparing to a hypothetical somebody else leads to oversimplifications like in the joke with the physicists and the spherical horses or cases where we are forced to compare apples to oranges in some way. The purest way to compare an ability is to compare it for the baseline character who would benefit from it, since then all other things will be equal. In other words--you bought yourself other shiny things when you chose to have the low Strength, so that's the baseline level you are at when you consider being able to add Dexterity to damage because it factors in the other shiny things automatically, instead of leaving them floating out there but unaddressed.
lots of awesome stuffThat... Wasn't quite the answer I was hoping for, but I really appreciate you taking the time to think it through and type it out. Thank you. :)Now, dangerous doesn't mean never use. It just means be very cognizant that you are playing around with radioactive materials. You have to realize what the actual ability scores are going to look like and balance around that, without caring about the fact that your design doesn't benefit the marginal case any more where the two stats are very close to each other (since the marginal case wouldn't spend character resources to gain your new rules element anyway). Convert the "switch stat X to stat Y" into a baseline gap in stats of a character you would expect to take that rules element and make sure you would be OK with designing an element that flat-out gave that kind of a bonus for the same cost.
This is also a completely personal aesthetic, and it only necessarily holds true for myself alone.
I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the Agile enhancement, but for different reasons - primarily that WBL limitations are relative. A character that bases his character around doing damage via his dexterity modifier is going to be struggling until he can afford an Agile weapon, which would realistically be at around level 6. Conversely a character that starts off at 15th level considers the downside of Agile (the cost) relatively minor. Making Agile a +2 equivalent weapon property would make it a realistic purchase at around level 9, which I think would make for a very frustrating gameplay experience for anyone putting in the miles in levels 1-8.
On a personal level I also dislike characters that are so heavily reliant on specific gear - you can't always assume that your GM will actually make it available, and if you ever find yourself in a position where the gear is out of reach or rendered nonfunctional you're basically boned.
I much prefer feat options such as Weapon Finesse & Dervish Dance, Guided Hand and Agile Maneuvers - both because feats are static and remain important at all levels (a +1 weapon enhancement is a minor expense at level 14, but two feats remain relevant no matter what level you are) and because they generally come online early enough that you can base character concepts around them without kicking around waiting "for your time".
The reason why I asked for this is that I was helping a friend try and make a monk concept work (loosely based on Wang from the Tekken series), a monk with average physical but high mental attributes that relied more on insight and perception to deal damage rather than brute strength or lightning quick reflexes. Apart from the Guided weapon property from Pathfinder #10 (which we agreed was heavily underpriced), we had a hard time making the character come together. Sensei really didn't fit the character concept, and Guided Hand was only an option if we dipped Cleric or Oracle and worshipped Irori (or another deity whose favored weapon is Unarmed Strike) - hard to justify for a character that wasn't particularly religious.
In the end we ended up homebrewing a series of monk-only feats that more or less mirrored Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance for Wisdom, but limited to Unarmed Strikes.
I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the Agile enhancement, but for different reasons - primarily that WBL limitations are relative. A character that bases his character around doing damage via his dexterity modifier is going to be struggling until he can afford an Agile weapon, which would realistically be at around level 6. Conversely a character that starts off at 15th level considers the downside of Agile (the cost) relatively minor. Making Agile a +2 equivalent weapon property would make it a realistic purchase at around level 9, which I think would make for a very frustrating gameplay experience for anyone putting in the miles in levels 1-8.
On a personal level I also dislike characters that are so heavily reliant on specific gear - you can't always assume that your GM will actually make it available, and if you ever find yourself in a position where the gear is out of reach or rendered nonfunctional you're basically boned....
I agree. The big case where this winds up not being as big a deal is with Dex druids with amulets of Agile. Currently, you can get a 4000 gp amulet of agile and just cast greater magic fang on yourself, so by the time you have wild shape, you can afford it for sure.
I much prefer feat options such as Weapon Finesse & Dervish Dance, Guided Hand and Agile Maneuvers - both because feats are static and remain important at all levels (a +1 weapon enhancement is a minor expense at level 14, but two feats remain relevant no matter what level you are) and because they generally come online early enough that you can base character concepts around them without kicking around waiting "for your time".
The reason why I asked for this is that I was helping a friend try and make a monk concept work (loosely based on Wang from the Tekken series), a monk with average physical but high mental attributes that relied more on insight and perception to deal damage rather than brute strength. Apart from the Guided weapon property from Pathfinder #10 (which we agreed was heavily underpriced), we had a hard time making the character come together. Sensei really didn't fit the character concept, and Guided Hand was only an option if we dipped Cleric or Oracle and worshipped Irori (or another deity whose favored weapon is Unarmed Strike) - hard to justify for a character that wasn't particularly religious.
In the end we ended up homebrewing a series of monk-only feats that more or less mirrored Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance for Wisdom, but limited to Unarmed Strikes.
Personally, I would say having one but not both of those two would have been safer, like the Guided Hand feat, but for monks. Also, it sounds like this was perfect for your group and to fit this particular character, so in the end, I say, rock on! That's the way to handle it. Sometimes what is perfect for your group isn't perfect for release to all groups though.
The real danger in new design is in granting the ability to swap out more different things until one ability score has almost nothing left, such that dumping it becomes essentially invisible.
Personally, I would say having one but not both of those two would have been safer, like the Guided Hand feat, but for monks. Also, it sounds like this was perfect for your group and to fit this particular character, so in the end, I say, rock on! That's the way to handle it. Sometimes what is perfect for your group isn't perfect for release to all groups though.
The real danger in new design is in granting the ability to swap out more different things until one ability score has almost nothing left, such that dumping it becomes essentially invisible.
We originally started off with just +Wisdom to Attack as the Sensei and Zen Archer class features, but no ability modifier on top of the already somewhat underwhelming unarmed strike damage didn't really work for a "striker" character.
I have the distinct pleasure of having a group of friends who do what I like to call "optimize nicely" - they'll make competent and interesting characters, but they generally won't try to break my back. The more time I spend on the forums, the more I appreciate that they're generally really nice people and don't intentionally rock the boat. The feat chain we homebrewed could in theory easily be picked up and used by a Monk 3 / Cleric 17 monstrosity that bases attacks, damage, AC and bonus spells and save DC on Wisdom, but I trust them not make that character. I would never consider those feats fit for publishing though!
It's also worth noting that we houseruled that Dervish Dance can be used with any weapon, so the difference between "Dexterity Monk" and "Wisdom Monk" isn't quite as big as it seems at first glance. The former has better initiative, ranged attacks, dexterity focused skills (acrobatics, balance etc) and reflex save while the latter has better Stunning Fist DC, Ki pool, wisdom focused skills (perception, sense motive) and will save. They're both interesting variants of the traditional martial artist and so far I really enjoy seeing different monks in play.
I agree. The big case where this winds up not being as big a deal is with Dex druids with amulets of Agile. Currently, you can get a 4000 gp amulet of agile and just cast greater magic fang on yourself, so by the time you have wild shape, you can afford it for sure.
That actually brings me to a different question - why can AoMFs be enchanted with special properties before applying a +1 bonus?
I have the distinct pleasure of having a group of friends who do what I like to call "optimize nicely" - they'll make competent and interesting characters, but they generally won't try to break my back. The more time I spend on the forums, the more I appreciate that they're generally really nice people and don't intentionally rock the boat. The feat chain we homebrewed could in theory easily be picked up and used by a Monk 3 / Cleric 17 monstrosity that bases attacks, damage, AC and bonus spells and save DC on Wisdom, but I trust them not make that character. I would never consider those feats fit for publishing though!
Yeah, it's one of the dangers of this type of option for an official product, and it's also why home games are amazingly cool. You can put into place exactly what works, and you can even have a social contract about edge cases instead of having to write in restrictions directly into the rule or in a FAQ.
It's also great to have players who are self-policing, like yours, and the ones in my home group. For instance, one of the reasons I noticed the weird things going on with paragon surge immediately, like before the book's street date since I was a subscriber, was due to the fact that I was playing a half-elf bard in Kingmaker at the time who was going the Eldritch Heritage line. So when I flipped the book open to look for options for my bard, the spell was staring me in the face, and that feat was literally in my build. So what I did was go to the other players and Linda (the GM) and suggest that we just not allow the spell in the game. All our players are like that. They optimize quite a bit, but they also look for things that go beyond fair play and suggest banning or modding them, even if or sometimes especially if they affect their own characters. And they know the GMs are more than happy to use any options that remain in the game with NPCs (see my Runelords tactics above for an example of edited tactics), so in some cases it is also to the players' advantage not to see NPCs wielding these same abilities!
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And they know the GMs are more than happy to use any options that remain in the game with NPCs (see my Runelords tactics above for an example of edited tactics), so in some cases it is also the players' advantage not to see NPCs wielding these same abilities!
Of course, when the party showed at midnight and gave the cultists ample warning by knocking on the door and then politely waiting while the cultists got into position, they faced the full 13-man cultist squad and a fully operational death sta heavily buffed inquisitor on the top floor... I think that was as close as they ever got to a wipe in that AP. That was also the first time I fully realized just how terrifying inquisitors are when they go all-out with buff spells, bane and judgements.
A devil's summon ability—standard action or full-round?
Full-round. The bit about longer cast times to match the spell is hidden somewhere in the CRB, but I found it at one point.
Since we're ragging on agile, I'll also point out its the kind of thing that makes a huge difference between characters that are played at first level and those that are created at a higher level.This. What has that guy with 7 Str been doing until he can afford an agile weapon?
Crossbows. Hey, they think its good enough for harsk...
Crossbows. Hey, they think its good enough for harsk...Since we're ragging on agile, I'll also point out its the kind of thing that makes a huge difference between characters that are played at first level and those that are created at a higher level.This. What has that guy with 7 Str been doing until he can afford an agile weapon?
Situationally, crossbows can do better than one might think, although they're unfortunately much weaker than bows. However, that didn't stop my crossbow-quisitor and Linda's phalanx fighter from defeating a much larger force of higher level characters (including one that was a noble marid with class levels who granted a wish to another) at Jason Nelson's PvP Cheliax vs Pirates game several Paizocons ago. To be fair, the other team could have beaten us if they used the wish for something other than what they chose.
What does the Totem Warrior archetype do?
Sadly, nothing. Hopefully, one day we'll have a similar archetype that does something.
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How are you settling in there Mark? I hope it feels like living the dream brother man. ;)
You and I have been on opposite sides of the Crane Wing errata, and have discussed it together a few times. I would be curious to know how you find the old Crane Wing in comparison to the Swashbuckler's Opportune Riposte and Parry ability in power level as it currently stands - particularly when paired with Signature Deed and Combat Reflexes. I know you have played both extensively in and out of PFS.
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How do you pronounce your Last Name?
The "Seif" rhymes with "life". Or as I liked to say in the office "It's not too hard. The 'ei' just makes a long 'I' sound like in 'eidolon'!"
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How are you settling in there Mark? I hope it feels like living the dream brother man. ;)
You and I have been on opposite sides of the Crane Wing errata, and have discussed it together a few times. I would be curious to know how you find the old Crane Wing in comparison to the Swashbuckler's Opportune Riposte and Parry ability in power level as it currently stands - particularly when paired with Signature Deed and Combat Reflexes. I know you have played both extensively in and out of PFS.
It certainly does feel like "living the dream" and I'm settling in well!
As we saw from my playtests, the Swashbuckler in the v2 playtest was extremely powerful at mid levels and up. Signature Deed was for sure the breaking point for Opportune Parry and Riposte. When it costs a panache and an AoO each time, it's not too powerful at all yet. Also, at lower levels, it will be much more difficult to create a character that can consistently beat an overpowering enemy at attack rolls, so I think the two abilities for comparison would hit their zenith at different times, and that auto-CW is much stronger when "off-zenith" than OP&R is, and simply saying OP&R can't be a signature deed would more-or-less fix any of the craziness I did with that deed in the playtest.
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As we saw from my playtests, the Swashbuckler in the v2 playtest was extremely powerful at mid levels and up. Signature Deed was for sure the breaking point for Opportune Parry and Riposte. When it costs a panache and an AoO each time, it's not too powerful at all yet. Also, at lower levels, it will be much more difficult to create a character that can consistently beat an overpowering enemy at attack rolls, so I think the two abilities for comparison would hit their zenith at different times, and that auto-CW is much stronger when "off-zenith" than OP&R is, and simply saying OP&R can't be a signature deed would more-or-less fix any of the craziness I did with that deed in the playtest.
That's awesome man! While we don't agree on all mechanics points, I do find your perspective to be largely fairly and balanced overall, so I am very glad we have someone with your discerning eye and love of the game looking out to shore up some of the glaring holes.
As usual, you are one of my favorite people to nerd out on some mechanics with, so I appreciate the discourse.
Our core PFS group opted to go with a "no characters with a spell list, no use of Use Magic Device" group in order to heighten our challenge a little bit while still optimizing. I opted to go with a melee focused Swashbuckler to cover face skills and test out the mechanics. I find your low level assessment to hold up well. At our present 3rd level, old Crane Wing was easily superior, but I will add that being able to OP&R twice in one round did spare me from fairly certain death in one encounter, which could not have been done with Crane Wing. I can see that if the ability remains the same and continues to function with Signature Deed, it will pretty well blow old Crane Wing directly out of the water immediately upon achieving 11th level.
Even at low level, I find that is comparable to Divine Interference, and superior to present Crane Wing, however. Spamming OP&R out at low levels is difficult, but the Panache pool refills rather quickly in general from our experience. Do you foresee these three abilities getting any closer examination at some point, or do you believe we're looking at a pretty finalized comparison for the foreseeable future?
Hey Mark! Glad to hear you're doing well out there! Nice seeing you again at PaizoCon.
What's an appropriate range on the Surge power from the Oceans subdomain? You can't go wrong with melee/touch range, but the flavor of making a powerful wave just appear when there's something next to you seems odd.
Surge (Su): As a standard action, you can cause a mighty wave to appear that pushes or pulls a single creature. Make a combat maneuver check against the target, using your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier as your CMB. If successful, you may pull or push the creature as if using the bull rush or drag combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
If it's 5 feet, then how does that work with the "Drag" version of the ability? Usually when making a Drag maneuver, you must move back with the target of the maneuver. However, this ability is not an actual combat maneuver (hence it not benefiting from feats Improved Bull Rush or Improved Drag), and the only thing that moves is the target creature, correct? If the range is really 5 feet, then the Drag option is useless because the target has to enter your square, or maybe I'm thinking too hard about this.
Hiya, Mark. Looking forward to saying hi at GenCon.
As for the question: Why does Corrosive Touch allow Spell Resistance? It is unlike most other conjurations in this regard. If the answer is "because game balance", then I would think it ought to be an Evocation spell instead...
Even at low level, I find that is comparable to Divine Interference, and superior to present Crane Wing, however. Spamming OP&R out at low levels is difficult, but the Panache pool refills rather quickly in general from our experience. Do you foresee these three abilities getting any closer examination at some point, or do you believe we're looking at a pretty finalized comparison for the foreseeable future?
I always hope that there is room to examine mechanics along with as much data as possible and make new decisions. Of course, it can be challenging because there will always be people upset with any change and inertia to keep things status quo, and that can counteract those hoping for changes, even those meant to bring balance to the Force. I can't really guarantee anything other than that I have my eye on a long list of things, whatever my eye is worth!
Any thoughts on how the mythic rules effect combat balance?
A few mythic abilities are easy to abuse, so giving mythic to PCs without a good hard look and some houserules can lead to a very tough time for a GM. However, it actually works quite well for boss fights where the PCs are not mythic and the boss is. The GM is able to pick and choose mythic powers for enemies based on theme and simply not choose to give the boss any abilities that seem to be too much at the time.
Even at low level, I find that is comparable to Divine Interference, and superior to present Crane Wing, however. Spamming OP&R out at low levels is difficult, but the Panache pool refills rather quickly in general from our experience. Do you foresee these three abilities getting any closer examination at some point, or do you believe we're looking at a pretty finalized comparison for the foreseeable future?I always hope that there is room to examine mechanics along with as much data as possible and make new decisions. Of course, it can be challenging because there will always be people upset with any change and inertia to keep things status quo, and that can counteract those hoping for changes, even those meant to bring balance to the Force. I can't really guarantee anything other than that I have my eye on a long list of things, whatever my eye is worth!
Can't you take the evolution for more eyes or something? :P
Hi there,
I have a question about the new spells known FAQ. I would have posted in the thread about it but cant seem to find it and you seem to have been involved in the decision.
The Wayang Race has an Oracle favoured class bonus which reads:
Oracle: Add one spell known from the wizard's illusion school spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the oracle can cast. That spell is treated as one level higher unless it is also on the oracle spell list.Is this unaffected as being a benefit deriving from the class or does it need looking at? I ask as the Wayang is just about to be opened up for PFS play and I am very tempted to run a Wayang Oracle of Heavens. Investing in Spell Focus: Illusion always felt a little like a waste but necessary to make Colour Spray work but as the Cleric list has very few illusions on it this looks like an excellent pick.
Someone made a note of it in the appropriate thread, and I've noted it as well. I was indeed involved in the decision, as all four designers always come to a consensus before we post a FAQ (which incidentally is why they take a while).
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Can't you take the evolution for more eyes or something? :PEven at low level, I find that is comparable to Divine Interference, and superior to present Crane Wing, however. Spamming OP&R out at low levels is difficult, but the Panache pool refills rather quickly in general from our experience. Do you foresee these three abilities getting any closer examination at some point, or do you believe we're looking at a pretty finalized comparison for the foreseeable future?I always hope that there is room to examine mechanics along with as much data as possible and make new decisions. Of course, it can be challenging because there will always be people upset with any change and inertia to keep things status quo, and that can counteract those hoping for changes, even those meant to bring balance to the Force. I can't really guarantee anything other than that I have my eye on a long list of things, whatever my eye is worth!
Well, I have this, but it might not be enough!
Hey Mark! Glad to hear you're doing well out there! Nice seeing you again at PaizoCon.
What's an appropriate range on the Surge power from the Oceans subdomain? You can't go wrong with melee/touch range, but the flavor of making a powerful wave just appear when there's something next to you seems odd.
Surge (Su): As a standard action, you can cause a mighty wave to appear that pushes or pulls a single creature. Make a combat maneuver check against the target, using your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier as your CMB. If successful, you may pull or push the creature as if using the bull rush or drag combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.If it's 5 feet, then how does that work with the "Drag" version of the ability? Usually when making a Drag maneuver, you must move back with the target of the maneuver. However, this ability is not an actual combat maneuver (hence it not benefiting from feats Improved Bull Rush or Improved Drag), and the only thing that moves is the target creature, correct? If the range is really 5 feet, then the Drag option is useless because the target has to enter your square, or maybe I'm thinking too hard about this.
Weird, it does have no listed range. Maybe it's meant to be 30 feet? You're right that some of the elements of it make touch range a bit odd.
Hiya, Mark. Looking forward to saying hi at GenCon.
As for the question: Why does Corrosive Touch allow Spell Resistance? It is unlike most other conjurations in this regard. If the answer is "because game balance", then I would think it ought to be an Evocation spell instead...
Yeah, come stop by the Paizo booth and say hi!
@The spell--If the reason was "because game balance", then snowball wouldn't blow corrosive touch to kingdom come. Honestly, I'm not sure here. I mean, snowball is a SR No conjuration and flurry of snowballs is a SR Yes evocation. There may be no better reason than that the freelancer put SR Yes on the conjuration and nobody caught it and moved it to evocation / changed the SR to No.
I can't really guarantee anything other than that I have my eye on a long list of things, whatever my eye is worth!
Don't give up your eye for anything. I have always been convinced that Odin got ripped off.