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I think Cloudkill is a definate swarm destroyer. It seems tailor made to destroy swarms. I would house(over)rule that any day if the official answer was no.....
don't swarms usually come with stuff for the individual creates for just such things.
The thousands of creatures that make up a swarm are treated as one creature with a pool of hit points determined by hit die.
Yep. Think of the "being made up of many smaller creatures" as flavor text only. The swarm is effectively a single creature on it's own for mechanics.
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I can see why Cloudkill wouldn't outright kill a swarm in one round. There's a lot of biomass blocking those towards the middle. It makes sense (to me, at least) that Cloudkill would take a few rounds to exterminate them all.
Have you ever had to fumigate your house before? It takes more than 6 seconds.
How is cloudkill different from a fireball in this respect? Or any other area attack?
It's not totally realistic, but I guess the +50% damage from area effects swarm property helps here.
Would the +50% damage apply to con damage from cloud kill?
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Would the +50% damage apply to con damage from cloud kill?How is cloudkill different from a fireball in this respect? Or any other area attack?
It's not totally realistic, but I guess the +50% damage from area effects swarm property helps here.
I think the intent is hit point damage, but RAW a case could be made.
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Have you ever tried to get your place fumigated by a 10th level caster?
BRB making a campaign involving a character from another dimension populated entirely by powerful casters. Weak there, he is a powerful man here.
Sorcerer: "Here, I am considered strong. Back home, they called me 'The Orkin Man.'"
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The thousands of creatures that make up a swarm are treated as one creature with a pool of hit points determined by hit die.
A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class.
Not a pool of hit points determined by hit die, but a pool of hit dice and hit points. I would rule that you would need to check the base hit dice of the creature(s) making up the swarm, if they are killed by the spell then the swarm would be killed by the spell.
For those comparing this to fumigating a house, first a house, even one as small as mine, is larger than the area of effect of the spell, and second the fumigators take longer than six seconds to saturate the area. Now if the fumigation of your house would kill your dog in six seconds, then you can compare the two.
Since the crab is a 1 Hit Die critter, the Cloudkill would off the swarm.
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Not a pool of hit points determined by hit die, but a pool of hit dice and hit points. I would rule that you would need to check the base hit dice of the creature(s) making up the swarm, if they are killed by the spell then the swarm would be killed by the spell.
This is countered by the rule saying that the swarm is treated as a single creature, specifically "A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature." Looking up the HD of the individual creature is more time than I care to spend, and if I were so inclined I would just have the swarm die outright without looking it up. Justified by too many individual creatures dying for the swarm to maintain effectiveness.
This is countered by the rule saying that the swarm is treated as a single creature, specifically "A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature." Looking up the HD of the individual creature is more time than I care to spend, and if I were so inclined I would just have the swarm die outright without looking it up. Justified by too many individual creatures dying for the swarm to maintain effectiveness.Not a pool of hit points determined by hit die, but a pool of hit dice and hit points. I would rule that you would need to check the base hit dice of the creature(s) making up the swarm, if they are killed by the spell then the swarm would be killed by the spell.
Though I would likely treat it the exact same way if a player brought it up, I'm left to wonder: How does this differ from a fireball doing X damage to everything in its space? Using your logic, why wouldn't a fireball be similarly effective?
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I wold rule that it would work, because of this statement:
"Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures."
I do not see why cloudkill would not work (AOE that can easily kill most diminutive/fine creatures in 6 secs), while gust of wind would, other than the fact that RAW, that is what it says.
Again, my $0.02.
This is countered by the rule saying that the swarm is treated as a single creature, specifically "A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature." Looking up the HD of the individual creature is more time than I care to spend, and if I were so inclined I would just have the swarm die outright without looking it up. Justified by too many individual creatures dying for the swarm to maintain effectiveness.Not a pool of hit points determined by hit die, but a pool of hit dice and hit points. I would rule that you would need to check the base hit dice of the creature(s) making up the swarm, if they are killed by the spell then the swarm would be killed by the spell.
But Cloudkill has no save for creatures under 3 HD, and a Swarm does NOT have HD, it has a "pool of HD."
The only reason I mentioned looking up the HD of the creatures making up the swarm, is in case they are above 3 HD. I am not even sure if any creatures are both small enough and have more than 3 HD. If there are, then they would make a save as the swarm.
Remember that you are not necessarily killing every member of the swarm, but a sufficient number to break it up.
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But Cloudkill has no save for creatures under 3 HD, and a Swarm does NOT have HD, it has a "pool of HD."
But if the swarm's pool of HD is more than 3, you have to treat it as a single creature and have it save or die.
Edit: After trying to look up individual creatures from swarms on the PRD, I find no stats for non-giant versions of any swarms on the list. So the blanket rule would be that if you do not treat the swarm as a single creature, cloudkill wipes out the swarm automatically as none of the individual creatures can have more than one or two HD.
Seems like the RAW is pretty clear -- Cloudkill doesn't automatically kill a swarm -- but that obviously defies logic. In a home game, I'd say absolutely, Cloudkill is a swarm killer. In PFS...I'd probably rule according to RAW, but hope a VO overrides me. :P
So, if cloudkill auto-kills swarms due to each creature in it having 1HD or less, does that mean that that it also automatically removes lingering diseases or contagions from areas, providing the bacteria have <1HD?
Who knows? The game treats "poison" as a single thing -- which it obviously isn't -- but that's way further down the rabbit hole than sane people are willing to go. ;-)
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So, if cloudkill auto-kills swarms due to each creature in it having 1HD or less, does that mean that that it also automatically removes lingering diseases or contagions from areas, providing the bacteria have <1HD?
Excellent use of cloudkill I'd say! disinfection on a large scale! finally explains why all these Lawful Good wizards keep it in their spellbook! :)
I wold rule that it would work, because of this statement:
"Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures."
I do not see why cloudkill would not work (AOE that can easily kill most diminutive/fine creatures in 6 secs), while gust of wind would, other than the fact that RAW, that is what it says.
Again, my $0.02.
Gust of wind is designed to blow things away. That has nothing to do with cloud kill and the other cloud spells which gust of wind works on
But Cloudkill has no save for creatures under 3 HD, and a Swarm does NOT have HD, it has a "pool of HD."But if the swarm's pool of HD is more than 3, you have to treat it as a single creature and have it save or die.
Edit: After trying to look up individual creatures from swarms on the PRD, I find no stats for non-giant versions of any swarms on the list. So the blanket rule would be that if you do not treat the swarm as a single creature, cloudkill wipes out the swarm automatically as none of the individual creatures can have more than one or two HD.
Odd under Centipede there is a list of other Centipedes
House centipede 1/8 Tiny 1d8
Sewer centipede 1/4 Small 1d8
Hissing centipede 1 Large 2d8
Giant whiptail centipede 2 Huge 4d8
Great forest centipede 6 Gargantuan 7d8
Titan centipede 9 Colossal 10d8
A similar list under Crab and Spider,
Familiars has stats for rats and bats and monkeys.
Your searchfu is weak. :D
But Cloudkill has no save for creatures under 3 HD, and a Swarm does NOT have HD, it has a "pool of HD."But if the swarm's pool of HD is more than 3, you have to treat it as a single creature and have it save or die.
Edit: After trying to look up individual creatures from swarms on the PRD, I find no stats for non-giant versions of any swarms on the list. So the blanket rule would be that if you do not treat the swarm as a single creature, cloudkill wipes out the swarm automatically as none of the individual creatures can have more than one or two HD.
Odd under Centipede there is a list of other Centipedes
House centipede 1/8 Tiny 1d8
Sewer centipede 1/4 Small 1d8
Hissing centipede 1 Large 2d8
Giant whiptail centipede 2 Huge 4d8
Great forest centipede 6 Gargantuan 7d8
Titan centipede 9 Colossal 10d8A similar list under Crab and Spider,
Familiars has stats for rats and bats and monkeys.
Your searchfu is weak. :D
All those are monstrous centipedes. Similarly for crabs and spiders.
Thinnk about for a moment. The smallest centipede on that list is Tiny-sized, which would be well over a foot long. That's not a normal centipede.
But Cloudkill has no save for creatures under 3 HD, and a Swarm does NOT have HD, it has a "pool of HD."But if the swarm's pool of HD is more than 3, you have to treat it as a single creature and have it save or die.
Edit: After trying to look up individual creatures from swarms on the PRD, I find no stats for non-giant versions of any swarms on the list. So the blanket rule would be that if you do not treat the swarm as a single creature, cloudkill wipes out the swarm automatically as none of the individual creatures can have more than one or two HD.
Odd under Centipede there is a list of other Centipedes
House centipede 1/8 Tiny 1d8
Sewer centipede 1/4 Small 1d8
Hissing centipede 1 Large 2d8
Giant whiptail centipede 2 Huge 4d8
Great forest centipede 6 Gargantuan 7d8
Titan centipede 9 Colossal 10d8A similar list under Crab and Spider,
Familiars has stats for rats and bats and monkeys.
Your searchfu is weak. :D
All those are monstrous centipedes. Similarly for crabs and spiders.
Thinnk about for a moment. The smallest centipede on that list is Tiny-sized, which would be well over a foot long. That's not a normal centipede.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scolopendra_gigantea
All those are monstrous centipedes. Similarly for crabs and spiders.
Thinnk about for a moment. The smallest centipede on that list is Tiny-sized, which would be well over a foot long. That's not a normal centipede.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scolopendra_gigantea
How did I know you were going to counter with an uncommonly large species of centipede when I said common centipedes aren't that large?
Ahem. Common centipedes still aren't that large. Outliers don't change that.
Edit: Additionally, the monstrous Giant Centipede entry of the Bestiary only contains examples of monstrous Giant Centipedes (yes, even the tiny one is still Giant). There are still no examples of non-monstrous, common centipedes.
If you observe the entry for Centipede swarm it consists of Diminutive-sized centipedes, i.e. not Giant Centipedes.
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I am sure that RAW means it doesn't auto-kill. I am pretty sure that by RAW the Con damage is multiplied by half again. That helps.
This would make a reasonable change to the spell, however. I'd like to see that change. Heck, I think Swarm subtype needs to be re-written.
Note it's funny that by a strained reading of "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells." and "Alchemist's Fire: You can throw a flask of alchemist's fire as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash.
You can read that the 1d6 isn't X 150% as that's a "direct hit" (supposedly vs one creature") and of course 1 X 1.5 = 1. So a splash weapon does nothing extra vs a swarm and is almost useless.
But the clear intent of "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from .... splash weapons " says that splash weapons must be extra useful vs swarms. I think that the 1D6 does go against the swarm, and that a rules change making the 1pt splash being 2 pts would be nice.
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I hear people argue this all the time, and I still fail to understand their reasoning.
You toss an Alchemist Fire at a Swarm. You hit its touch AC. You roll 1d6, and add 50%.
When people claim it's only 1pt, and that +50% still makes it 1pt, it makes me sad.
My brain cannot fathom that level of pedantry.
...Was that even in contention in the first place?
Was what???
Seems like the RAW is pretty clear -- Cloudkill doesn't automatically kill a swarm -- but that obviously defies logic. In a home game, I'd say absolutely, Cloudkill is a swarm killer. In PFS...I'd probably rule according to RAW, but hope a VO overrides me. :P
Nope. In mechanical logic, given that a fireball doesn't damage individual creatures in the swarm separately, neither does cloudkill. Either both are instant swarm killers, or neither are.
The stuff about alchemist's fire and swarms; didn't see that anywhere in the thread, so it seemed odd to bring it up....Was that even in contention in the first place?Was what???
Yes, it's quite odd for these discussions to go off topic.