Not quite. A staff takes up the weapon slot as a quarterstaff. At some point, you learn to do without weapons as at least a wizard. Staves gives you some use of the weapons slot.
A dagger enchanted to cast fireball where you point it does the same thing. So does a spell-storing weapon.
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In the interest of selling one of my favorite magic items, here are some tips on effective staff use:
1. Unlike wands, don't bother with staves containing spells that you don't cast very often. Your staff should contain a spell that you love to spam, one that you would cast over and over if you could. More importantly, it should be a spell that you generally prepare every day.
2. You have to give up a spell slot of the highest level the staff can produce, and you have to do it at the beginning of your "spell day". This leaves you at a disadvantage? No. If you followed 1, you already had that spell prepared! That means you've just transferred the spell to the staff, and you're effectively in the same position that you would have been in without the staff--except that if you don't end up needing the spell that day, you get to keep it for later. If your staff doesn't produce a go-to spell, you've given up a much more valuable slot for a situational benefit, so you'll basically be down a slot that day.
3. The above tips are most important when you're running a fast-paced campaign where every day is a new, equally-dangerous set of challenges. In a slower-paced campaign with lots of downtime, you have much more leeway in your choice of staves.
4. Finally, never underestimate the usefulness of lower level staves. They're easier to recharge, so you can ignore rule 2 more often as the slot you're giving up isn't quite as precious a resource. A staff of minor arcana can effectively be a "lockdown stick" against spellcasters foolish enough to face you without shield already up, and you can keep recharging it without worrying too much about lost slots.
My only beef with staves in Pathfinder is the ridiculous caster level requirement to craft them. Staves are staples of the wizard archetype. It makes little sense for the vast majority of wizards to have useless sticks as their arcane bond for over half their careers while their peers have tricked-out amulets or rings. As a GM, consider reducing or eliminating the level requirement for Craft Staff.
If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.
Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.
Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.
It takes no more time to recharge a staff than it does to prepare spells at all. You can recharge on the move just fine.
In the interest of selling one of my favorite magic items, here are some tips on effective staff use:
1. Unlike wands, don't bother with staves containing spells that you don't cast very often. Your staff should contain a spell that you love to spam, one that you would cast over and over if you could. More importantly, it should be a spell that you generally prepare every day.
2. You have to give up a spell slot of the highest level the staff can produce, and you have to do it at the beginning of your "spell day". This leaves you at a disadvantage? No. If you followed 1, you already had that spell prepared! That means you've just transferred the spell to the staff, and you're effectively in the same position that you would have been in without the staff--except that if you don't end up needing the spell that day, you get to keep it for later. If your staff doesn't produce a go-to spell, you've given up a much more valuable slot for a situational benefit, so you'll basically be down a slot that day.
3. The above tips are most important when you're running a fast-paced campaign where every day is a new, equally-dangerous set of challenges. In a slower-paced campaign with lots of downtime, you have much more leeway in your choice of staves.
4. Finally, never underestimate the usefulness of lower level staves. They're easier to recharge, so you can ignore rule 2 more often as the slot you're giving up isn't quite as precious a resource. A staff of minor arcana can effectively be a "lockdown stick" against spellcasters foolish enough to face you without shield already up, and you can keep recharging it without worrying too much about lost slots.
My only beef with staves in Pathfinder is the ridiculous caster level requirement to craft them. Staves are staples of the wizard archetype. It makes little sense for the vast majority of wizards to have useless sticks as their arcane bond for over half their careers while their peers have tricked-out amulets or rings. As a GM,...
You can also replicate the Minor Arcana trick using a couple of wands. Which help if you run into multiple enemies of that type. As for the higher-level slots: Could do it that way, or could go cheaper and just buy a large number of scrolls with the spell on it. Even with adjustments for caster level, the scrolls are still cheaper. And I can carry around ten of them without sacrificing the slot that has the spell in it!
And that's the problem... everything you cite as good about it are the items that myself and players like me have found to be the problem.
It takes no more time to recharge a staff than it does to prepare spells at all. You can recharge on the move just fine.Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.
And in the process, burn a spell slot you may need later that day. Which helps no one if your staff is low on charges.
1. Your staff should contain a spell that you love to spam, one that you would cast over and over if you could. More importantly, it should be a spell that you generally prepare every day.
2. If you followed 1, you already had that spell prepared! That means you've just transferred the spell to the staff, and you're effectively in the same position that you would have been in without the staff
If you're casting the spell all the time, then buying a rod is basically blowing a load of cash for +10 casts of that spell. That's it.
If you use up all 10 charges, then you're down to a useless stick that if you somehow don't cast ALL of the copies of that spell you like to cast a lot, you have a net gain.
Or:
You spent a giant pile of money to do nothing. Because if you're spamming the spell, your net daily charge value will be less than or equal to 0: either you used up all your slots on it or you used up all your slots AND charges from the staff.
you're effectively in the same position that you would have been in without the staff
...and down several tens of thousands of gold.
Scrolls are not spell trigger items. They function like normal spellcasting, with the same problem of provoking AoO. Not to mention that since it's a single-use item, you will need to take out every scroll you intend to cast with another action that provokes AoO. A staff does not require either of these.
I think an easy houserule is to just allow the stave to be recharged at any time during the adventure day. At least then you have the option of using unspent spells at night.
Scrolls are not spell trigger items. They function like normal spellcasting, with the same problem of provoking AoO. Not to mention that since it's a single-use item, you will need to take out every scroll you intend to cast with another action that provokes AoO. A staff does not require either of these.
Strangely enough, I have never found that to be a problem. The only times it has been, the enemy was too close for staves to be effective anyway, and in such a case a melee weapon with either a stored spell or the ability to unleash a spell on strike proved to be more effective.
More money than you think, given the way multi-spell staves are priced- IIRCOr, to be more amusing, get a Page of Spell Knowledge for a 1st level spell that matches one of the staff spells, and you haven't even lost a spell slot, just a small amount of money.It's pretty funny how Sorcs got screwed out of efficient staff use, because they need to dedicate a spells-known slot to a spell on the staff to recharge it.But on the other hand givingup a Spell slot to recharge is most likely not so hard on the sorcerer. And if it is a good staff chances are that he already have more than one of the spells on his list. And if it is a costum staff just ad one of your level 1 spells for 5 charges that is almost free.
Am i not correct that adding a level 1 Spell caster level 20 that cost 5 charges would cost somthing like 800 gp to the staff marked price?(200x20/5)
Edit: And the level 1 page of knowledge cost 1000.I think both are withing reasonable cost. Considering you will mostlikely be able to UMD several good divine spells from your costum staff if you are clever.
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Wands don't scale with your caster level, and they become prohibitively expensive at higher caster levels. If you're talking about a spell you cast as often as 1 recommends, you want a permanent solution. Ditto scrolls. Wands are most effective when they're a spell you're going to cast somewhat often or when the caster level of the spell is not particularly relevant to the effect. Scrolls are most effective for spells that are rarely useful but vital when the need does come up--especially if you have no way of knowing when the need will come up.
And in the process, burn a spell slot you may need later that day. Which helps no one if your staff is low on charges.
If the spell slot you burned was the same spell held by the staff, you lose nothing. You can't cast the spell from your slot, but you can burn the charge from your staff if you need to. Lose nothing, gain the possibility of caching a use of the spell for later (or spending the charge on a different spell, depending on the staff).
If you're casting the spell all the time, then buying a rod is basically blowing a load of cash for +10 casts of that spell. That's it.
If you use up all 10 charges, then you're down to a useless stick that if you somehow don't cast ALL of the copies of that spell you like to cast a lot, you have a net gain.
Not really. Even in fast-paced games, most casters will have days where they do not cast all of their spells--even their most popular ones. Those are the days you get to recharge the staff. The end result is that when you need it, you get ten extra castings at your full caster level--no small advantage in many situations.
...and down several tens of thousands of gold.
That gold was already spent when you bought the staff, and wands and scrolls are less effective and more expensive in the quantities we're talking about--a spell you may cast hundreds of times over the course of your career. The fact that you may not get a net charge every single day doesn't diminish the benefit you get over time. If you normally prepare the spell anyway, you lose nothing by giving it to the staff in the morning, but on many days you gain much.
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Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.
And the number of days he saw combat vs the number of days he was traveling was small. Less than 10%
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I enjoy having staves in certain circumstances.
-They are really good for spells with expensive components. I got a lot of use out of nondetection from a staff when I played an arcane trickster, for example.
-They are a way to actually get a decent caster level and save DC out of a magic item. For some spells a cruddy scroll save DC doesn't cut it.
That having been said, if you don't think a staff is going to improve your effectiveness, don't buy one. I think they have their place as long as you keep in mind their limitations.
Blahpers approach really gets around any issue with "I'm wasting this slot!"
Additionally I'd like to add:
For wizards a staff let's you act with some spontaneity. For schrodinger wizard, perhaps this isn't a benefit, but to other wizards, you're giving up one spell slot that could be used on many spells, or a piece of even more spells.
For a sorcerer you can expand your spells known. Just buy a staff where you only know one of the spells, then you're gaining several additional spell options that you wouldn't normally have available.
Also! If you take the crafting feat (or simply choose a staff has your arcane bond) you can put spells on there that aren't on your spell list! Put a grease on there so you can charge it up, then put cure light wounds and good hope on there!
Please note that those spells will require UMD to activate. DC 20 regardless of spell level.
EDIT: added the UMD part.
Wands don't scale with your caster level, and they become prohibitively expensive at higher caster levels. If you're talking about a spell you cast as often as 1 recommends, you want a permanent solution. Ditto scrolls. Wands are most effective when they're a spell you're going to cast somewhat often or when the caster level of the spell is not particularly relevant to the effect. Scrolls are most effective for spells that are rarely useful but vital when the need does come up--especially if you have no way of knowing when the need will come up.
Unless you are using some houseruled version of wands or scrolls, they never get more expensive than 33,000 gp. That is using the absolute most-expensive wand made, and that's 50 charges. The most expensive scroll is 28,500 (and that's a scroll of Wish). Most staves are higher than that amount.
The staff of minor arcana is 8,000 gp. A scroll of unmodified shield is 25 gp, and magic missile is the same. The cost of a modified (20th-level caster) scroll of each (formula: 12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster) is 250 gp to scribe them, with 500 gp being for buying them new. Which means that, for the price of that staff, I can carry sixteen scrolls scribed at caster level 20. And that's before noting that magic missile caps out at caster level 9, at which point I could simply buy 32 scrolls of it for the same amount of money as the staff. Or I can buy ten scrolls of shield at caster level 20 and 13 scrolls of magic missile at caster level 9 for the same price... and end up having saved money and bought the equivalent of two or three staves.
As for the wands: Typically, I'm not finding the lack of scaling for them to be a problem. They're there to provide a lot of extra copies of low-level spells that are frequently used, so they're the same value as buying 50 scrolls at the same level.
So, no, the staves are not cheaper. And scrolls are not more expensive or less effective.
If the spell slot you burned was the same spell held by the staff, you lose nothing. You can't cast the spell from your slot, but you can burn the charge from your staff if you need to. Lose nothing, gain the possibility of caching a use of the spell for later (or spending the charge on a different spell, depending on the staff).
I lose the spell slot, which means I lose one use of every spell of that level. So I've lost potential versatility in favor of a magic item that will likely be drained to nothing relatively soon.
Not really. Even in fast-paced games, most casters will have days where they do not cast all of their spells--even their most popular ones. Those are the days you get to recharge the staff. The end result is that when you need it, you get ten extra castings at your full caster level--no small advantage in many situations.
At low-levels, sure... but those are typically the levels where you don't see staves at all. I find that by the time staves become relatively common, the typical fast-paced campaign I'm in has hit the point where downtime doesn't exist and we're having to seriously consider how we use our resources. Which is why the scrolls, which I've proven are cheaper, are the better option.
Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.And the number of days he saw combat vs the number of days he was traveling was small. Less than 10%
Only in the movies. In the books, he saw combat much more frequently.
And even then, there was still the risk of combat that lasted every single step. A scenario in which he had to get up every day with the idea he would face combat.
Which is the same scenario being talked about for why staves are not that useful. You don't know what you will need that spell slot for by the end of the day. Can you risk using the charge now?
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Only in the movies. In the books, he saw combat much more frequently.
CGI is expensive.
And in the process, burn a spell slot you may need later that day. Which helps no one if your staff is low on charges.If the spell slot you burned was the same spell held by the staff, you lose nothing. You can't cast the spell from your slot, but you can burn the charge from your staff if you need to. Lose nothing, gain the possibility of caching a use of the spell for later (or spending the charge on a different spell, depending on the staff).
No, not really.
Lets look at the Staff of Minor Arcana for a second.
The staff allows use of the following spells:
Shield (1 charge)
Magic missile (2 charges)
Lets say that Magic Missile is the "spell of choice" here. Note that by burning a Magic Missile to put 1 charge in the staff, in order to get Magic Missile back out I'd need to spend two charges.
Staff of Bless, same problem. Tricks, same problem. The scout, same problem. Staff of Eidolons, same problem only now you're burning a 2nd level spell.
Then we hit the more expensive staves. Staff of Fire, burn a 4th level spell to have 1 charge (which gets you Burning Hands).
So no. You are not always left in the same place that you were when you started.
Blahpers approach really gets around any issue with "I'm wasting this slot!"
Additionally I'd like to add:
For wizards a staff let's you act with some spontaneity. For schrodinger wizard, perhaps this isn't a benefit, but to other wizards, you're giving up one spell slot that could be used on many spells, or a piece of even more spells.
For a sorcerer you can expand your spells known. Just buy a staff where you only know one of the spells, then you're gaining several additional spell options that you wouldn't normally have available.
Also! If you take the crafting feat (or simply choose a staff has your arcane bond) you can put spells on there that aren't on your spell list! Put a grease on there so you can charge it up, then put cure light wounds and good hope on there!
Please note that those spells will require UMD to activate. DC 20 regardless of spell level.
EDIT: added the UMD part.
Except that his scenario doesn't when you stop and see that there are other, cheaper solutions that do the same job and don't require sacrificing a spell slot.
I've also shown that the scrolls are cheaper on the matter, and they do the exact same thing with allowing spontaneous casting. You walk in with the level of power pre-set, but that merely means you can cast a lot more spells (more than 10 extra!) at your current caster level. You can also afford to buy a lot more spells to cast as-needed that way.
Now, for a campaign with massive amounts of downtime, staves are the better option because you recharge them more frequently and don't have to worry about daily spell budget as much. In fact, in that scenario, they can almost replace using your spell slots at all for anything except recharging if you get enough of them. But for a true fast-paced campaign where every day carries a high risk of combat and you can't afford to spend time sitting around and need a massive number of options? They don't work out so well.
Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.
In the context of 'recharging a staff', any day without major spell burning combat is essentially downtime. Travel does't burn the slots, so it might as well go into the staff for later (even if reduced power) than let those slots just fizzle away.
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(And, as noted, we often go weeks of game time without real downtime.)
This then is not a Rules Question at all. It's just a gripe about your current campaign not having any downtime.
In those kinds of games, some strategies are more efficient than others.
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Selgard: No, not really... That is what you use scrolls and potions for. A staff is for high-level spells that you want to be able to cast several times in specific situations, and do so with your own casting ability. Wands have a window of a few levels of use, but after that they are mostly useful as distraction (fireball, for example). That is when you need to consider starting to use staves. Note also that using a staff doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
A staff of healing is a very good example of that. Last gaming session we were attacked by slugs that enter in your body and after a few rounds nest in your brain, controlling you. We were unlucky with our perception check (and they had a high bonus in stealth) and a high imitative as they were waiting for us in ambush. So 3 out for 5 of us were infected. it was the end of a long day, the paladin had only 1 lay of hand and the oracle hadn't learned remove disease. We needed 3 remove disease in a hurry. Luckily we had 2 potions of cure disease and the day was saved.
But now take that situation and change it to one where we needed 4 remove disease. No one had a 3rd potion. Or one where we needed several remove blindness. Or we needed to forge ahead even if we were fatigued, so we needed several lesser restoration. A perfect situation for a staff of healing, while bringing with us enough potions or scrolls to cover all those instances would be more problematic.When you need that staff often you need several uses of the spell in it, but often you have all the time to recharge it before needing it again.
I, personally, can't get behind a campaign that has no downtime, as it just blows all realism out of the water. I can't imagine, even the hardiest group of heroes, running at a full pace for day in and day out for two years.
The other issue with this is that it doesn't make sense based on experience gain from every day adventuring. If you are in full adventure mode every day from the beginning of adulthood at 17, you'd be at 20th level - a lifetime master of your trade - by age 20. Doesn't pass muster in my mind. Based on some sort of XP by Age fictitious table in my cloudy head, I'd think an adventurers life would be on the order of 66-80% downtime.
It depend on the definition of downtime, too.
In our current campaign we have gained 10 levels in less than 4 months, and we have been constantly following the adventure, but that don't mean that we have been constantly adventuring.We had several weeks of travelling between different locations, and while dangerous, for me that isn't "adventuring" (I am Varisian, after all, voyaging is fun). the day spent asking for informations in the different cities were part of the adventure, we were prepared for trouble if needed, but they weren't days spent fighting. I am fairly sure that the inquisitor of Cayden had a good time going from tavern to tavern asking for informations.
The week spent recovering from a raise dead was part of the adventure, but not adventuring.
I would say that the 60-80% downtime you cited was pretty close to what we got, and Carrion Crown is a fast paced adventure.
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Yes, 3.5E staves couldn't be recharged... but they had 50 charges. You know that 3rd-level spell you had in it? You could use it 16 times. In PF, only 3 times...
Yeah, practical...
You don't use 1 charge for each spell level, you use the number of charges set when the staff was made.
the problem is that often, to keep the staff price low, the higher level abilities require more than one charge, but that isn't mandatory.
Blahpers approach really gets around any issue with "I'm wasting this slot!"
Additionally I'd like to add:
For wizards a staff let's you act with some spontaneity. For schrodinger wizard, perhaps this isn't a benefit, but to other wizards, you're giving up one spell slot that could be used on many spells, or a piece of even more spells.
For a sorcerer you can expand your spells known. Just buy a staff where you only know one of the spells, then you're gaining several additional spell options that you wouldn't normally have available.
Also! If you take the crafting feat (or simply choose a staff has your arcane bond) you can put spells on there that aren't on your spell list! Put a grease on there so you can charge it up, then put cure light wounds and good hope on there!
Please note that those spells will require UMD to activate. DC 20 regardless of spell level.
EDIT: added the UMD part.
Except that his scenario doesn't when you stop and see that there are other, cheaper solutions that do the same job and don't require sacrificing a spell slot.
I've also shown that the scrolls are cheaper on the matter, and they do the exact same thing with allowing spontaneous casting. You walk in with the level of power pre-set, but that merely means you can cast a lot more spells (more than 10 extra!) at your current caster level. You can also afford to buy a lot more spells to cast as-needed that way.
Now, for a campaign with massive amounts of downtime, staves are the better option because you recharge them more frequently and don't have to worry about daily spell budget as much. In fact, in that scenario, they can almost replace using your spell slots at all for anything except recharging if you get enough of them. But for a true fast-paced campaign where every day carries a high risk of combat and you can't afford to spend time sitting around and need a massive number of options? They don't work out so well.
Scrolls are indeed useful.. but they don't fit the same job. You showed you can make "many" scrolls, and claim its equivalent to a staff, yet the staff, over time, is an infinite amount of extra spells. Scrolls are always finite.
Also scrolls are only really viable for spells without strong CL or DC dependence. Sure a scroll of fly is great to have around when you don't think you'll need to prepare it, but scrolls of fireball? If you find them you might use them, but I don't think many average spellcasters go around buying/scribing fireballs. On a staff tho...
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Hey, I did say it was a fictitious table in my cloudy head. The point was, that zero downtime simply never makes sense. Even soldiers in the middle of a war end up with downtime for logistics, recovery from wounds, training, of just simply mental rest. A well run campaign would have plenty of time to keep some staves charged.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.
If you're trying to stop something involving constantly-raised zombies... there is no downtime. Sleep becomes a luxury in this scenario.
If you're on a plane that is hostile to you? There is no downtime.
Middle of exploring some mostly-empty land? There is no downtime, and if you're far enough out, there won't be for weeks.
There are numerous scenarios within Pathfinder where downtime is not only nonexistent, but outright impossible. When dealing with something like that, the typical staff is utterly worthless; it has too few charges to really get anything done and it takes a week and a half to recharge. It's also expensive and heavy.
And that's ultimately the problem. In order to make staves viable, I have to not run a rather startling number of campaign scenarios. The old non-rechargeable ones may have been disposable, but they at least had enough charges to last in one of those campaigns. The current ones? You pretty much have to never use them in order to make them last.
And even when there is downtime, your magic users could instead use that spell slot to craft other magic items they don't have to recharge which act constantly.
The man in the Russian army in 1941 had downtime, and the first months of the Nazi invasion of Russia were very similar to most of the examples you made.
No downtime while exploring a unknown land? I think that your definition of downtime or of your idea of what a unknown land is is very different from mine.
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To make a stave most useful, it would be best if they are all 1 charge spells. It makes it potentially more expensive, but that expense gives you FAR more versatility. Even something as simple as a Staff of 1 charge magic missile and 1 charge shield, and that is all, is great.
You give up a 1st level spell slot, and turn what would be a single spell slot, into a slot that could be used for either spell. Furthermore, it allows you to surge on a particular rough day, as long as it's followed up by some less than critical days. It's a preloaded buffer, and the only time you lose out on a spell slot is a day you don't need to cast any magic missiles or shields, AND that staff was already full that day.
It's expensive, but versatile. Plus, it's your primary melee weapon, and a handy dandy walking stick. Cast a permanent light spell on it, and it's also your torch. Also works well for punctuating commands when playing hall monitor to the balrog.
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I of course understand that there will be adventures that do not have any significant downtime. In which case, I also find it hard to believe that over that long drawn out adventure, there are no days where the wizard hasn't burnt through all his spells.Staves can only be recharged in the morning. Said wizard needs to burn the spell slot prior to knowing if he'll need it during the day. When eating dinner, it's too late to charge the staff back up...unused spells or not.
The rule say "Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots", but it don't consider that some divine spellcaster regain his spell at midnight and that a arcane spellcaster can party until 6 a.m., then go to bed sleep until 3 p.m. and then regain his spell.
I thing that it is meant to be: "Each day, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots". Without that change a cleric that regain his spell at midnight will never be able to recharge a staff.
And in the process, burn a spell slot you may need later that day. Which helps no one if your staff is low on charges.If the spell slot you burned was the same spell held by the staff, you lose nothing. You can't cast the spell from your slot, but you can burn the charge from your staff if you need to. Lose nothing, gain the possibility of caching a use of the spell for later (or spending the charge on a different spell, depending on the staff).No, not really.
Lets look at the Staff of Minor Arcana for a second.
The staff allows use of the following spells:
Shield (1 charge)
Magic missile (2 charges)Lets say that Magic Missile is the "spell of choice" here. Note that by burning a Magic Missile to put 1 charge in the staff, in order to get Magic Missile back out I'd need to spend two charges.
Staff of Bless, same problem. Tricks, same problem. The scout, same problem. Staff of Eidolons, same problem only now you're burning a 2nd level spell.
Then we hit the more expensive staves. Staff of Fire, burn a 4th level spell to have 1 charge (which gets you Burning Hands).
So no. You are not always left in the same place that you were when you started.
The premade staves are rather inefficient, I agree. There is no reason the staff has to have any multi-charge spells in it, other than keeping the gp cost down. a stave with a single 1 charge spell in it is a very efficient item. Adding more spells increases the price, but also increases the versatility. Choosing more charges per casting reduces the price, and the efficiency. Build the staff to fit your actual needs, and it is a valuable tool. Choose one off the shelf that might do what you sometimes want, and yeah, you're burning a ton of gold.
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Why has it become so hard to recharge a staff?
Tier 1 problems.
In the context of 'recharging a staff', any day without major spell burning combat is essentially downtime. Travel does't burn the slots, so it might as well go into the staff for later (even if reduced power) than let those slots just fizzle away.Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.
Problem: You don't know whether or not the day will have no combat until the day is over, and you have to decide spell slot usage on this one at the beginning of the day.
right, but if it's a 1 charge per spell staff, you load in the spell, and then, if you do need it, you simply cast it from the staff instead of directly.
Yes, of course it's a tradeoff. Why wouldn't it be?
Problem: You don't know whether or not the day will have no combat until the day is over, and you have to decide spell slot usage on this one at the beginning of the day.In the context of 'recharging a staff', any day without major spell burning combat is essentially downtime. Travel does't burn the slots, so it might as well go into the staff for later (even if reduced power) than let those slots just fizzle away.Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.
Sometimes, though, you do, or at least you can get a general idea of which days are more likely to be spell-heavy. If you're about to storm the enemy stronghold, that's more likely to burn your spell list than, say, a day spent researching obscure flora in the university library. If the player of a prepared caster doesn't have even that level of predictability, then that player has more pressing matters to worry about (such as which spells to prepare at all).
Scrolls are indeed useful.. but they don't fit the same job. You showed you can make "many" scrolls, and claim its equivalent to a staff, yet the staff, over time, is an infinite amount of extra spells. Scrolls are always finite.
Also scrolls are only really viable for spells without strong CL or DC dependence. Sure a scroll of fly is great to have around when you don't think you'll need to prepare it, but scrolls of fireball? If you find them you might use them, but I don't think many average spellcasters go around buying/scribing fireballs. On a staff tho...
The staff is only an infinite source of spells if you have time to recharge it. Time which either requires not using the staff enough for it to really provide any real help, risking not having a spell slot ready for combat or otherwise when you need it, or having significant time not adventuring. What I'm talking about is a scenario where the last one is not possible and the second one is too dangerous... and if you are going with the first one, why even bother buying the staff in the first place?
Also, scrolls can have a modified CL higher than baseline, which I factored in. In fact, here's a quote on the prices you see:
So, by core rules, a scroll can have a higher caster level than minimum. So the only way they are ineffective in areas without strong CL dependence is if you are only buying scrolls at the absolute minimum level. And I know my group buys scrolls of spells they commonly use by the dozen, even when they're scrolls of fireball, just so they have the extra juice if they run out. That's the same reason they will sometimes also by a necklace of fireballs. At the same time, they buy the utility spells as well (sometimes even getting wands of those when CL doesn't matter or they need the sheer number of castings more).
The man in the Russian army in 1941 had downtime, and the first months of the Nazi invasion of Russia were very similar to most of the examples you made.
No downtime while exploring a unknown land? I think that your definition of downtime or of your idea of what a unknown land is is very different from mine.
If the adventurers were soldiers, you would have a point. Adventurers typically are not soldiers, though.
I define downtime as a period of time where you have no reasonable expectation of attack or danger and can relax. If you're spending a lot of time in town? Congrats, you have downtime. A lot of time in the wilderness? Quite likely, you have no downtime at all. Running ahead of an incoming army that has scouts out ahead of it to warn people of the incoming invasion? You definitely don't have downtime.
right, but if it's a 1 charge per spell staff, you load in the spell, and then, if you do need it, you simply cast it from the staff instead of directly.
Yes, of course it's a tradeoff. Why wouldn't it be?
The bolded item is the issue. I'm saying there are times where the trade-off isn't worth it.
The staff is only an infinite source of spells if you have time to recharge it. Time which either requires not using the staff enough for it to really provide any real help, risking not having a spell slot ready for combat or otherwise when you need it, or having significant time not adventuring.
[not using it enough] It means that there's a curve to your spell usage over time. Do you always empty your spell roster every day when playing a spellcaster--even every adventuring day? I've never played such a game. Maybe they exist; if so, maybe a staff is a subpar choice for that game's players (but see...)
[risk] If the staff only requires one charge to use and you followed advice item 1 above, you risk nothing. Well, apart from the enemy sundering or disjoining your staff, I suppose. Other than that, you have exactly the same number of spells available as before.
[not adventuring] See [not using it enough].
Scrolls and wands are too expensive for this purpose. I'm talking about a caster-level-dependent spell you'll use hundreds of times over your career, not something you'll use a mere 32 times. If you're buying dozens of high-CL scrolls of fireball, you're burning money. At least the necklace can be used by a non-caster.
The bolded item is the issue. I'm saying there are times where the trade-off isn't worth it.right, but if it's a 1 charge per spell staff, you load in the spell, and then, if you do need it, you simply cast it from the staff instead of directly.
Yes, of course it's a tradeoff. Why wouldn't it be?
There are times when a flaming longsword isn't worth it either.
One could....avoid battles. *GASP*
Most epic fantasy tales frequently involved evadiing enemies as those heroes weren't in it to be murderhobos.
One could....avoid battles. *GASP*
Most epic fantasy tales frequently involved evadiing enemies as those heroes weren't in it to be murderhobos.
THATS CRAZY TALK
Seriously, of the few PFS games I've attended, my favorite by far was the one where we almost made it through the entire thing without a fight. To me, a fight-free adventure is a Flawless Victory.
Sometimes, though, you do, or at least you can get a general idea of which days are more likely to be spell-heavy. If you're about to storm the enemy stronghold, that's more likely to burn your spell list than, say, a day spent researching obscure flora in the university library. If the player of a prepared caster doesn't have even that level of predictability, then that player has more pressing matters to worry about (such as which spells to prepare at all).Problem: You don't know whether or not the day will have no combat until the day is over, and you have to decide spell slot usage on this one at the beginning of the day.In the context of 'recharging a staff', any day without major spell burning combat is essentially downtime. Travel does't burn the slots, so it might as well go into the staff for later (even if reduced power) than let those slots just fizzle away.Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.
The bolded part is the very type of scenario I'm talking about. Typically, when we hit the levels where we see staves the most, we're also seeing a lot tougher challenges and campaigns where it is that we do not have the reliability of predictability. You spend large portions of the campaign having no idea what your caster will face today, if they'll face anything at all, or if they'll need to overcome some challenge they could not have ever reasonably expected.
Thus, making it a point to prepare for everything and why it is I find scrolls to be superior.
Now, scroll back up and note that I said the staves are the better option outside of the circumstances where I'm saying they don't work.
Sometimes, though, you do, or at least you can get a general idea of which days are more likely to be spell-heavy. If you're about to storm the enemy stronghold, that's more likely to burn your spell list than, say, a day spent researching obscure flora in the university library. If the player of a prepared caster doesn't have even that level of predictability, then that player has more pressing matters to worry about (such as which spells to prepare at all).Problem: You don't know whether or not the day will have no combat until the day is over, and you have to decide spell slot usage on this one at the beginning of the day.In the context of 'recharging a staff', any day without major spell burning combat is essentially downtime. Travel does't burn the slots, so it might as well go into the staff for later (even if reduced power) than let those slots just fizzle away.Frodo was also spending most of the campaign without a full army actually marching. And even then, his downtime was quite rare compared to the amount of time he spent on the road.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.Even Frodo had downtime.The bolded part is the very type of scenario I'm talking about. Typically, when we hit the levels where we see staves the most, we're also seeing a lot tougher challenges and campaigns where it is that we do not have the reliability of predictability. You spend large portions of the campaign having no idea what your caster will face today, if they'll face anything at all, or if they'll need to overcome some challenge they could not have ever reasonably expected.
Thus, making it a point to prepare for everything and why it is I find...
That's fair. Staves still work even then given the one-charge-per-use-of-favorite-spell-you-were-going-to-prepare-anyway strategy, but given that much unpredictability there might not be such a spell anyway. In that case, be paranoid and scroll it up with everything you can think of. : D
I think staves are best used in the following ways:
1. A cheaper way for a spontaneous caster to get regular access to a spell. Suppose a sorcerer anticipates wanting to cast Wall of Force often, but has already prioritized learning other 5th level spells. A staff that casts Wall of Force for one charge will cost 18,000 gold, while a Page of Spell Knowledge for Wall of Force will cost 25,000 gold. Buying the staff saves the sorcerer 7000 gold.
2. Having ready access to a spell that's not on your class list. Say a mid-level (12th level) party wants some back-up healing capability. For 27,060 gold, they can buy a staff that can cast Heal for 1 charge, and Protection from Evil for 5 charges, and give that staff to the party sorcerer. Sure it'll take a DC 20 UMD check for the sorcerer to use Heal from the staff, but that's a pretty easy check to make auto-succeedable by a 12th level sorcerer. Since the sorcerer knows Protection from Evil and can cast 6th level spells (no where is it stated that staves are classified as divine or arcane), he can recharge the staff on his own.
This could be done with Heal scrolls, but there are some disadvantages. For starters, for the cost of the staff I just described, the same party could buy 15 oracle-scribed scrolls of Heal at CL 12. (They could save some money by getting cleric-scribed Heal scrolls, but unless the sorcerer has a Wisdom of 16 he'll have to make an additional DC 31 UMD check.) So out of the gate, the scroll method is only 5 castings of Heal more cost-effective. Or, 9,060 gold cheaper if you only buy 10 scrolls.
However, a scroll in and of itself is less efficient. For starters, instead of a DC 20 UMD check, it rises up to DC 32 - a significant increase. Furthermore, activating a scroll provokes and AoO, while using the staff does not - something very important when it comes to casting a spell with a range of touch. Finally, the scroll will always be CL 12, while casting from the staff is at the user's CL, so the spell becomes more effective as the sorcerer levels up.
3. Using the fact that a staff is a spell-trigger item to your advantage. Consider your average wizard. One of the things he hates most in the whole world is being grappled. Ideally he could buy a ring of Freedom of Movement, but that's pricey at 40,000g, and uses up a valuable ring slot. Instead he could buy a staff that casts Dimension Door for 3 charges, at the much more economical price of 3733 gold. Since a spell-trigger item requires only a command word and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, if he's ever grappled he has a fail-safe way of escape. Even though Dimension Door only has a verbal component, if he actually wanted to cast the spell - because it's a good spell and he has it memorized - in a grapple, he'd have to make a concentration check which will likely be a DC in the mid-thirties or higher. (DC 37 to cast Dimension Door while being grappled by a dire tiger, for example.)
So as you can see, staves do have their uses.
There are times when a flaming longsword isn't worth it either.The bolded item is the issue. I'm saying there are times where the trade-off isn't worth it.right, but if it's a 1 charge per spell staff, you load in the spell, and then, if you do need it, you simply cast it from the staff instead of directly.
Yes, of course it's a tradeoff. Why wouldn't it be?
You won't get any argument from me on that.
One could....avoid battles. *GASP*
Most epic fantasy tales frequently involved evadiing enemies as those heroes weren't in it to be murderhobos.
That works rather well in APs. Not so great when ahead of the aforementioned army and one of their scouting groups just spotted you. Then it's face a small battle now or a much, much larger battle a short time from now.
That's fair. Staves still work even then given the one-charge-per-use-of-favorite-spell-you-were-going-to-prepare-anyway strategy, but given that much unpredictability there might not be such a spell anyway. In that case, be paranoid and scroll it up with everything you can think of. : D
There typically isn't such a spell. We also make efforts to be unpredictable at that point. After all, if the BBEG is going to make things unpredictable for us, why can't we return the favor?
That's another reason to buy all of those scrolls. An intelligent enemy gathering intel about you can have a copy of your entire shopping list and still not know what you're going to throw at them ;)
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Phhfffft! All this talk of yer fancy shmancy "recharging staff". Back in my day we used a staff and at the end of the day, you know what we had? We had a stick!
<pulls out a dead 2E staff and starts whacking people whining about it being difficult to recharge, let alone even being able to recharge, a staff about the thread>