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This thread was inspired by another thread, and I decided it needed it's own topic.
The basic idea of this thread is to optimize a set of armor, weapons and shield for a wizard so that he can get the most personally out of the craft arms and armor feat (obviously his party will love him for it anyway). Starting with the basics what are the armor, weapon and shield of choice to build off of?
Armor: Armored Kilt OR Silken Ceremonial Armor OR Haramaki - Grants +1 Armor Bonus with 0% arcane spell failure and a 0 armor check penalty.
NOTES: Which is better is an esthetic choice. The silken armor is probably the classiest, but the kilt does allow for some comedic moments when you are flying around the battlefield. Especially if you “go commando.”
Shield: Mithral Buckler – Grants +1 Shield Bonus, with 0% arcane spell failure and a 0 armor check penalty, leaves your hand free to hold stuff.
NOTES: This is pretty standard, it’s basically just a platform for enchanting.
Adamantine Spiked Gauntlet - Does minimal damage, but can’t be disarmed and it ignores hardness . leaves your hand free to hold stuff.
NOTES: First, does a gauntlet fill the glove slot? It’s a weapon, so I would say no, but I can see the argument the other way. It’s gratuitous to make it adamantine but we are optimizing here.
OK, so what we have now is a fully armed and armored mage, wearing fancy silk clothes, a shiny buckler on one hand and fancy glove on the other - Mikael Jackson would be proud! Note that his chest and hand slots are still open so he can still wear magic gloves and robes. Don’t ask me how this works – he’s living in a fantasy world for God’s sake!
Let’s start out by just making a list of the special abilities that might matter to a wizard (note that we are talking about a primary caster here, not a Gish). These lists are based on the assumption that the wizard will stay out of melee combat as much as possible . I left out things that add energy damage (shocking burst, bane weapons, that sort of thing) because of this assumption. Feel free to create items that violate these assumptions if you have a cool idea about how to play the wizard/sorcerer in question. For example an aberrant sorcerer who specializes in touch attacks might want something very different from what I have included here.
the costs are listed in parenthesis in either +'s or thousands of GP as appropriate.
Armor
Balanced (+1)
Bitter (+1)
Deathless (+1)
Defiant (+1)
Delving (+10k)
Determination (+30K)
Energy Resistance (+18k,+42k,+66k)
Etherealness (+49K)
Expeditious (+4k)
Fortification (+1,+3,+5)
Ghost Touch (+3)
Glamered (+2.7k)
Grinding (+1)
Hosteling (+7.5K)
Invulnerability (+3)
Poison Resistant (+2.5k)
Putrid (+10k)
Radiant (+7.5k)
Shadow (+3.75k, +15k, +33.75k)
Slick (+3.75k, +15k, +33.75k)
Spell Storing (+1)
Stanching (+1)
Undead Controlling (+49K)
Sheild
Arrow Deflection (+2)
Blinding (+1)
Clangorous (+1)
Defiant (+1)
Determination (+30K)
Energy Resistance (+18k,+42k,+66k)
Fortification (+1,+3,+5)
Ghost Touch (+3)
Grinding (+1)
Hosteling (+7.5K)
Mirrored (+1)
Poison Resistant (+2.5k)
Radiant (+7.5k)
Reflecting (+5)
Undead Controlling (+49K)
Wyrmsbreath (5k)
[/b]Weapon[/b]
Allying (+1)
Anchoring (+2)
Benevolent (+1)
Brilliant Energy (+4)
Courageous (+1)
Cruel (+1) - For Coup de gras attacks
Defending (+1)
Defiant (+2)
Dispelling (+1)
Dispelling Burst (+2)
Dueling (+14k)
Ghost Touch (+1)
Glamered (+4k)
Glorious (+2)
Grounding (+1)
Gaurdian (+1)
Impervious (+3K)
Lifesurge (+2)
Limning (+1) – use true strike to find and hit a guy, and remove his displacement effect.
Menacing (+1) – For the dedicated flanking buddy
Negating (+2)
Neutralizing (+1)
Nullifying (+3)
Phase Locking (+2)
Planar (+1)
Quenching (+1)
Spell Storing (+1)
Thawing (+1)
Transformative (+10k)
OK, how do we enchant each of these three items? Are there other items that are better choices or that make better tools for a wizard to use for a specific task?
I have a couple of ideas in mind, but I’ll come back later and list them (I have work to do right now). Have fun and thanks for playing!
for wizardly/casterly gear, my usual enchants are:
weapon: +X defending (1) guardian (1) - this lets you beef up your AC or saves as needed--you should be spell-slinging, not punching folks. being only a +7 weapon at most, it's mildly cheaper than a fighting-focused character's weapon.
armor: +X ghost touch (3) spell storing (1) deathless (1) determination (30k) glamered (2.7k)
shield: +X heavy fortification (5) -or- medium fortification (3) arrow deflection (2)
optionals:
any/all of the energy resistance enchants (since getting all of them is prohibitively expensive unless you're disgustingly rich, this should only be reserved for people crafting their own gear)
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I was looking at the same ideas, but I would lose defending and add dueling to the weapon. This would give you a nice initiative bonus.
Why glamered? A hat of disguise is only 2.5k, and sure you would have to swap out your other head slot item, but it's for city use mostly. I would add shadow instead (I like to sneak).
If you have a party cleric and the craft wand feat, you can craft a wand of Magic Vestment (CL20) that will grant 20 hours of +5 armor and/or shield buffs per charge - have the party pitch in on it's creation and share the love.
There are cost/benefit breakpoints in this stuff. The weapon being the most obvious case of this - what are you giving up to have this item instead? A nice staff runs you about 90K for example, and I'd take a mirror of mental prowess over any of that stuff.
So for relatively little money, at 12th level or so, I'd take:
+1 Gauntlet of dueling (16k)
non-magical Mithral buckler - just to have platform to enchant later
+1 Silk Armor of deathless, spell storing, & shadow(12.75K)
This assumes you buy them at cost. If you make them yourself they only cost about 15K. Your wealth by level at 12th level is 108K, so this is not a huge hit to your budget if you go by RAW. Only about 14% of your total wealth.
At this point you have a:
+4 Initiative Bonus
+5 Stealth Bonus
25% chance of negating negative levels
A vampiric touch if anyone dares to strike you in combat
and a +3 AC when you are not wearing mage armor and shield spells.
Next get a 16th level wand of magic vestment (36 K grants a +4 to armor and shield for 16 hours per charge) In the LIKELY event you can get that wand payed for by the party as a whole, your price would be only 9K.
I was looking at the same ideas, but I would lose defending and add dueling to the weapon. This would give you a nice initiative bonus.
Why glamered? A hat of disguise is only 2.5k, and sure you would have to swap out your other head slot item, but it's for city use mostly. I would add shadow instead (I like to sneak).
If you have a party cleric and the craft wand feat, you can craft a wand of Magic Vestment (CL20) that will grant 20 hours of +5 armor and/or shield buffs per charge - have the party pitch in on it's creation and share the love.
There are cost/benefit breakpoints in this stuff. The weapon being the most obvious case of this - what are you giving up to have this item instead? A nice staff runs you about 90K for example, and I'd take a mirror of mental prowess over any of that stuff.
So for relatively little money, at 12th level or so, I'd take:
+1 Gauntlet of dueling (16k)
non-magical Mithral buckler - just to have platform to enchant later
+1 Silk Armor of deathless, spell storing, & shadow(12.75K)This assumes you buy them at cost. If you make them yourself they only cost about 15K. Your wealth by level at 12th level is 108K, so this is not a huge hit to your budget if you go by RAW. Only about 14% of your total wealth.
At this point you have a:
+4 Initiative Bonus
+5 Stealth Bonus
25% chance of negating negative levels
A vampiric touch if anyone dares to strike you in combat
and a +3 AC when you are not wearing mage armor and shield spells.Next get a 16th level wand of magic vestment (36 K grants a +4 to armor and shield for 16 hours per charge) In the LIKELY event you can get that wand payed for by the party as a whole, your price would be only 9K.
question: is a gauntlt a finessable weapon? the dueling enchant (that gives the +4 init bonus) says it can only be put on those--which is why i didnt put it on mine.
NOte that Guardian and Defender don't give AC or save bonuses if you aren't actually attacking with the weapon...which largely means it's a useless enchant unless you're in the business of dealing out touch spells with your gauntleted hand.
YOu only get armor if you can't afford the slot to cast mage armor. In short, 1 1st level Pearl of Power, for the most part. Mage Armor is in most ways superior to normal armor, and when you can finally afford to get Bracers of Armor, they will provide you more benefit then the kilt/haramaki.
The buckler isn't a bad idea, if your DM allows it. SOme won't let you do the casting and get AC without shield prof, but that's a table rule. You definitely want passive benefits that will accrue regardless of its status...fortification or energy res spring to mind.
==Aelryinth
I think you can combine the armored kilt with one of the other two if you are willing to be slowed to medium armor speed for a mere +1 to AC -- or if you have some other way of moving around that is not tied to your speed.
The best armor suppresses all others and their effects, so, no, you're not layering armor.
==Aelryinth
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NOte that Guardian and Defender don't give AC or save bonuses if you aren't actually attacking with the weapon...which largely means it's a useless enchant unless you're in the business of dealing out touch spells with your gauntleted hand.
==Aelryinth
Where does it say that?
"question: is a gauntlt a finessable weapon? the dueling enchant (that gives the +4 init bonus) says it can only be put on those--which is why i didnt put it on mine"
Hmm. It's ambiguous. A gauntlet is listed as an "unarmed strike" and unarmed strikes explicitly ARE finessable, so I would say yes. If your GM rules no, a spiked gauntlet is clearly a light weapon, and you can use that.
Its' under the ruling for Defender weapons, and Guardian works like defender.
Really takes the utility out of defender. I could see where you couldn't be ready to take anything but attack actions to get the bonus, but as it stands, it's like defensive fighting...until you actually swing at someone with the weapon, you aren't wielding it in combat, and you don't gain a bonus.
And at the beginning of your next turn, it goes away until you swing again, which means someone can ready an action to hit you between your turn starting and your attack and you gain neither Defender nor defensive fighting bonuses.
It's, um, kinda dumb. FOr instance, you can't stand out there and parry arrows being shot at you for the Defender or Defensive Fighting bonus, because you aren't 'wielding it in combat'.
===Aelryinth
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Its' under the ruling for Defender weapons, and Guardian works like defender.
===Aelryinth
I think we are having a difference of opinion in the reading of the rules:
Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn. This ability can only be placed on melee weapons.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Cost +1 bonus
_________________________________________________________
OK, I've bolded the relevant passage -
The way I read this is: "before the wielder CAN ATTACK WITH the weapon, he must declare how many points he's taking off his attack roll to allocate to defense." In other words, you can't take your attack at your full bonus AND THEN declare that you are defending, you must first defend, and then take the penalty on your attack. It does NOT say that you must attack in order to get the AC bonus.
I think that the way you are reading this is: "In order to move any points from offense to defense he MUST use the weapon in combat." I don't think it says that at all. I can see how semantically you would come to this conclusion.
But I still think my interpretation is the correct one.
Yeah, the reason they did that is so no mage could make a +5 defender gauntlet, get his free AC, and then not attack with it.
They also didn't want someone hanging back and getting an AC bonus against missile fire, I guess.
I personally don't play it that way. I note that you have to declare an attack action and are actively wielding the weapon, which by itself prevents spellcasting, but you can totally use the Defender property to defend yourself if you are not actually attacking.
However, it won't work if you are surprised, either, because you have to declare the attack action, even if you aren't attacking anyone.
Takes care of the problem for me, YMMV.
==Aelryinth
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Gauntlet Of Rust use the hand slot, but I think weapon enchanted gauntlets would be a separate "slot." Note that there are some 1 handed hand slot items, like the gauntlet of rust and gloves of storing.
As far as mage Armor, wouldn't you get the special properties of the Armor (Haramaki) and the Armor bonus of the spell (or bracers of armor)?
no.
Layered suits of armor take the higher bonus, and the other one is completely suppressed in all ways.
Intentionally arranged just to stop what you are trying to do.
===Aelryinth
No.. the source of the superior armor class, in this case the Mage Armor spell, will totally shutdown the Haramaki.Gauntlet Of Rust use the hand slot, but I think weapon enchanted gauntlets would be a separate "slot." Note that there are some 1 handed hand slot items, like the gauntlet of rust and gloves of storing.
As far as mage Armor, wouldn't you get the special properties of the Armor (Haramaki) and the Armor bonus of the spell (or bracers of armor)?
This is incorrect. You are thinking of Bracers of Armor.
Mage Armor qualifies as armor. It will act just like armor in how it interacts with other armor.
i.e. you don't get any of the benefits of mage armor if it's cast on you while wearing plate...even the incorp touch AC. It's totally shut down by the superior armor.
==Aelryinth
Mage Armor qualifies as armor. It will act just like armor in how it interacts with other armor.
i.e. you don't get any of the benefits of mage armor if it's cast on you while wearing plate...even the incorp touch AC. It's totally shut down by the superior armor.
==Aelryinth
Citation needed. It's a spell that gives +4 armor bonus, while armor bonuses won't stack there is nothing about being treated as armor for shutting down an actual armor.
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Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to armor class (AC), while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus. In each armor category (light, medium, or heavy), the armors are listed in order from worst AC bonus to highest AC bonus.
Emphasis mine
Exactly. The Armor Bonuses won't stack. It won't turn off the armor though.
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Instead of Gauntlet, I prefer the Cestus. The difference isn't huge, but for 3 extra gold, you get 1 extra damage die size, 1 extra point of crit range, and 1 extra damage type. Now, on the one hand, who cares if the wizard is slightly better in hand-to-hand combat[but still probably horrible, unless build otherwise], but on the other hand, who is going to miss the extra 3gp?
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No.. the source of the superior armor class, in this case the Mage Armor spell, will totally shutdown the Haramaki.Gauntlet Of Rust use the hand slot, but I think weapon enchanted gauntlets would be a separate "slot." Note that there are some 1 handed hand slot items, like the gauntlet of rust and gloves of storing.
As far as mage Armor, wouldn't you get the special properties of the Armor (Haramaki) and the Armor bonus of the spell (or bracers of armor)?
As mentioned below, that only happens with Bracers of Armor. I was not aware of the wording added to Bracers of Armor in Pathfinder. Note that it does not shut down the special abilities of Bracers of Armor and normal armor if the armor bonuses are equal. Slap special abilities on Bracers of Armor and use it with your magical armor of the same armor bonus for some armor shenanigans. The only question is are the pluses from armor bonuses still an increase in armor bonus (reducing the effectiveness of this ploy) or a separate enhancement bonus?
Clearly, that's not what the authors intended, but I'm not sure that there's much of an issue there.
It's a modest downgrade from 3.0/3.5. In 3.0/3.5 you could use the two together and get the higher armor bonus and or you could use cheap(ish) bracers of armor to maintain some bonus versus touch attacks.
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The basic idea of this thread is to optimize a set of armor, weapons and shield for a wizard so that he can get the most personally out of the craft arms and armor feat (obviously his party will love him for it anyway). Starting with the basics what are the armor, weapon and shield of choice to build off of?
(emphasis mine)
1) Take Magical Knack (Wizard) as one of your starting traits
2) Start with/take one level of barbarian, cavalier, fighter, paladin, or ranger (depending on preference). Generally, fighter for the bonus feat or ranger to use spell-trigger items of ranger spells (cure light wounds, etc.) without Use Magic Device checks tend to be better choices. Alternately, a level of sohei monk can also be a decent choice (although you lose +1 from BAB).
3) Switch to eldritch knight as soon as possible (either through SLA or on reaching wizard 5-6). For "optimal" progression (and a ranged focus to avoid melee combat), wizard 6/(fighter or ranger) 1/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 (or wizard 1/(fighter or ranger) 1/eldritch knight 5/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +5/wizard +5 for the SLA early entry) ends up with +17 BAB and 17 levels of spell progression; the early entry via SLA has a higher BAB at low levels and reaches the PrC class features sooner.
4) Take Arcane Armor Training at 3rd level (will qualify with the CL boost from Magical Knack). This will let you wear heavier armor (like a mithral chain shirt), giving you a better AC; note that action economy (i.e., needing a swift action to use Arcane Armor Training) isn't really affected until gaining 5th-level spells (to cast using Quicken Spell), a lesser rod of metamagic Quicken (35,000 gp), or the eldritch knight capstone (Spell Critical requires a swift action). Using Still Spell and/or spells without somatic components (such as true strike) when you can cast with Quicken Spell (or a rod) can help prevent the chance of arcane failure, with some planning. At very high levels (~15th+), when you probably want to shift to bracers of armor instead of actual armor, you can use the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign to change the feat to something else.
5) Invest in a mithral buckler, mithral chain shirt, and a masterwork composite longbow:
5a) +X ghost touch mirrored mithral buckler will let you apply the buckler's total shield bonus against incorporeal touch and ranged touch attacks. Arrow deflection is less useful than learning and casting fickle winds; IMO, not worth it. Energy resistance may be something to look at, if not covered with other items/spellcasting.
5b) +X ghost touch mirrored mithral chain shirt will let you apply the chain shirt's total armor bonus against incorporeal touch and ranged touch attacks; note that a +1 ghost touch mirrored mithral chain shirt (26,100 gp) is about the same market price as bracers of armor +5 mirrored (25,000 gp), but can attain a higher maximum protective value (+9 maximum armor bonus vs. +7) and can provide a higher protective value earlier (a +1 mirrored mithral chain shirt is only 5,100 gp for a +5 armor bonus against normal and ranged touch attacks), except against incorporeal foes. At very high levels (~15th+), the bracers are probably more useful for greater spell diversity/versatility than the +2 AC. The armored kilt, haramaki, and silken ceremonial armor aren't really cost-effective, compared to bracers, at very high levels and have less maximum protective value (+6 vs. +7).
5c) +X adaptive distance seeking composite longbow will let you effectively act as an archer in addition to casting spells; with Imbue Arrow from arcane archer, you can even combine ranged damage with area effect spells (some of which normally can't be cast at range). Corrosive might be worth looking at to supplement the arcane archer's Enhance Arrows (Elemental) class feature (adding acid to cold, electricity, or fire from the arrows). Holy can also be useful in a typical campaign with a lot of evil foes.
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People overcomplicate things. If you want an armored wizard, build an Armored Wizard
*Yes, he has a template and very low wealth. He's a recurring NPC from one of my games.
Exactly. The Armor Bonuses won't stack. It won't turn off the armor though.
They explicitly defined the unstacking of armor bonuses as the greater one totally turning off the lesser one, including all secondary effects.
There is not a loophole there for you to exploit. That's basically all there is to it.
Mirrored cannot be added to Bracers of Armor, which provide their armor through a force effect. It can only be added to metallic armor.
Also, +5 mirrored Chain/bracers would be 36k, not 25k. Note that mirrored only provides the enhancement bonus against ranged touch attacks, NOT the full armor value.
Arrow Deflection is valuable because you don't have fickle winds up all the time, but Arrow Deflection works even on ambushes. You'll thank me when the assassin's death attack hits the shield and goes spiraling harmlessly away.
==Aelryinth
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"Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to armor class (AC), while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus. In each armor category (light, medium, or heavy), the armors are listed in order from worst AC bonus to highest AC bonus."
Here's the rule, there's nothing about it completely turning off the other bonuses an armor gives you. You are free to houserule that way, but that is not the RAW. Here's the rule you are confused by which is only on Bracers of Armor:
"Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."
Note the additional language that actually causes other armor to cease functioning that is nonexistent in the first quoted rules. See the difference?
Dot.
Mirrored cannot be added to Bracers of Armor, which provide their armor through a force effect. It can only be added to metallic armor.
Also, +5 mirrored Chain/bracers would be 36k, not 25k. Note that mirrored only provides the enhancement bonus against ranged touch attacks, NOT the full armor value.
That's what I get for posting tired... (missing details)
Anyway, that bracers of armor can't include the mirrored ability makes a mithral chain shirt (or mithral kikko for about 3,000 gp more) even more attractive low- to mid-level.
Arrow Deflection is valuable because you don't have fickle winds up all the time, but Arrow Deflection works even on ambushes. You'll thank me when the assassin's death attack hits the shield and goes spiraling harmlessly away.
But is it +2 equivalent useful? Unless you're facing ambushes fairly frequently (didn't you invest in Perception with some of your many skill ranks as an Int-based caster?), it's not going to come up enough to make it worth the expense (again IMO).
Enchanted armor is much cheaper than bracers of armor so you can afford more enchant, can go up to +10 instead of +8, and gives the base armor bonus too. It's always on, too, so you don't get caught between spells. I thought robes and armor were the same slot though, if not then even better.
Darkleaf quilted or leather works too, in case you don't like the style of the other 0% AF armors.
+1 to Deathless and spell storing and fortification for defense, dueling for offense. Anything past that point is pure luxury purchasing given the cost-reward ratio. If your wealth gets to the point that you're hunting for ways to spend it then you can revisit these.
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Enchanted armor is much cheaper than bracers of armor so you can afford more enchant, can go up to +10 instead of +8, and gives the base armor bonus too. It's always on, too, so you don't get caught between spells. I thought robes and armor were the same slot though, if not then even better.
Darkleaf quilted or leather works too, in case you don't like the style of the other 0% AF armors.
+1 to Deathless and spell storing and fortification for defense, dueling for offense. Anything past that point is pure luxury purchasing given the cost-reward ratio. If your wealth gets to the point that you're hunting for ways to spend it then you can revisit these.
There are only two actual armor that has no ASF. The Haramaki and the Silken Ceremonial Armor. Darkleaf specifically states that there is a minimum cap of 5%. A mithral Chain Shirt has an ASF of 10%.
"Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to armor class (AC), while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus. In each armor category (light, medium, or heavy), the armors are listed in order from worst AC bonus to highest AC bonus."
Here's the rule, there's nothing about it completely turning off the other bonuses an armor gives you. You are free to houserule that way, but that is not the RAW. Here's the rule you are confused by which is only on Bracers of Armor:
"Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."
Note the additional language that actually causes other armor to cease functioning that is nonexistent in the first quoted rules. See the difference?
You'll note that Bracers of Armor are fundamentally a permanent Mage Armor, right? And you're trying to play English-twisting to invent a loophole.
It was errata'd that NO form of armor stacks. In short, you can't wear leather armor as padding under your plate armor, load up the plate to +5 for AC, and load up the leather for special abilities. Because, you know, people tried to do exactly what you are trying to do.
The better armor suppresses the lesser. The same would apply to Mage Armor.
Let it go, Anzyr. Unless you want to make a feat or special ability letting them stack, they don't.
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth, you are the one playing English-twisting games to invent a loop hole.
Mage Armor with leather armor does not interact with the rules for Bracers of Armor. The clause does not affect that pairing.
You cannot use wear two suits of magic armor because it they use the same magic item slot. I don't know if there is anything preventing or allowing you to use two mundane suits (or one mundane and one enchanted).
Stacking armor bonuses has not been errataed, armor bonuses have not stacked, in the same manner that they do not now, since 3.5 and probably since 3.0.
What has been added in Pathfinder is the odd language in bracers of armor.
when did the kilt become medium armor? i thought it only increased if you wore it with other armors as well.
as for armor stacking--i thought you took the best AC from the layers, and the worst everything else, enchants only apply form one piece of gear
(like, you can wear an armored coat over parade mail and still get the +diplo bonuses and such from the parade mail)
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The Kilt + Haramaki or Silken Ceremonial armor would be +2 AC, 0% ASF, -0 Check Penalty (I think) medium armor. In this strange situation, I also don't know if you make it masterwork as a unit (150 gp) or as 2 pieces (300 gp). I assume that you enchant it as one unit or that only one can be enchanted.
It was errata'd that NO form of armor stacks.
Citation, please.
My search-fu is horrible.
But the rote reply is: Citation needed that they DO stack.
Because the only stacking armor so far seems to be the kilt, which has some very specific rules allowing it and in what manner.
The Bracers, on the other hand, have very specific rules calling out that they don't stack, and mage armor is basically bracers without the wrist toys.
So, the common idea that 'it doesn't tell me I can't, therefore I can' isn't really a good idea to follow, once again. Precedent is against it, as well as common sense.
==+Aelryinth
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Well, I'm not worried about the bracers - I think that there is no way a wizard's AC is going to keep up with monster attack bonuses. For the most part if you allow yourself to get targeted you are going to get hit, so why bother with actual AC beyond mage armor and a shield spell.
That said, do mage armor and a shield spell cancel out the non-AC benefits of armor?
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Mage armor suppresses the armor bonus of armor. It doesn't explicitly state that it also suppresses non-AC enhancements to the armor, but I would think most GMs would rule that you get mage armor or armor, not both. Expect table variation.
However, Shield does not grant and armor bonus, but a shield bonus. it will stack with any armor enhancement you have. (But not any shield bonus)
Precedent is that you get all of one or the other, not both.
If either one is suppressed, then you lose ALL the benefits.
Thus, if the bracers is the mage armor analog, you would lose all the benefits of mage armor, including its AC against incorp touch attacks, if you're wearing a breastplate (+6 AC). Likewise, you'd lose the benefits of Fire Resistance on your +1 Haki-mari if you cast mage armor, the same way you'd lose the benefits on your Bracers +1 of Arrow Deflection.
Likewise, your Shield +1 of Light fortification is totally suppressed if you cast a Shield Spell.
Note that this wasn't the case in 3.5. You could totally stack bracers, mage armor, and actual armor, and take the best in all situations, and get all the benefits of both. There was even a feat where you could wear a suit of armor under another suit of armor, and get the benefits of whichever was better, or their extra effects. Leather Armor +1 of Heavy Fortification under Full Plate +5 Ghost Touch Deflecting with Bracers +1 of Soul Forging and Minor Resistance to 4 Elements was totally a thing.
==Aelryinth
when did the kilt become medium armor? i thought it only increased if you wore it with other armors as well.
as for armor stacking--i thought you took the best AC from the layers, and the worst everything else, enchants only apply form one piece of gear
(like, you can wear an armored coat over parade mail and still get the +diplo bonuses and such from the parade mail)
The armored kilt by itself is light armor, providing protection comparable to a haramaki or a silken ceremonial robe but being a bit heavier.
However, it can be combined with any other armor to increase the total armor bonus by +1 at the cost of making the combined armor count as the next higher category over the other armor. Thus, the combination of armored kilt and either haramaki or silken ceremonial robe would count as medium armor, even though the combination has zero armor check penalty and arcane spell failure chance.
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My search-fu is horrible.
But the rote reply is: Citation needed that they DO stack.
Because the only stacking armor so far seems to be the kilt, which has some very specific rules allowing it and in what manner.
The Bracers, on the other hand, have very specific rules calling out that they don't stack, and mage armor is basically bracers without the wrist toys.
So, the common idea that 'it doesn't tell me I can't, therefore I can' isn't really a good idea to follow, once again. Precedent is against it, as well as common sense.
==+Aelryinth
The armor bonuses do not stack. The bonuses are present, but do not stack. Neither bonus is suppressed. Special armor effects are still present.
In the special case of bracers of armor, and only in the case of bracers of armor where the armor bonus is not equal to the armor bonus from worn armor, the source of the highest armor bonus completely suppresses the other source.
This does not apply to Mage Armor or other, similar effects.
when did the kilt become medium armor? i thought it only increased if you wore it with other armors as well.
as for armor stacking--i thought you took the best AC from the layers, and the worst everything else, enchants only apply form one piece of gear
(like, you can wear an armored coat over parade mail and still get the +diplo bonuses and such from the parade mail)
The armored kilt by itself is light armor, providing protection comparable to a haramaki or a silken ceremonial robe but being a bit heavier.
However, it can be combined with any other armor to increase the total armor bonus by +1 at the cost of making the combined armor count as the next higher category over the other armor. Thus, the combination of armored kilt and either haramaki or silken ceremonial robe would count as medium armor, even though the combination has zero armor check penalty and arcane spell failure chance.
This is totally justified, btw. Take the heavy quilt off your bed in winter and wrap it around your waist like five times. Congrats, you're wearing a kilt. And not one made of leather or with metal in it, even!
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I have to side with Anzyr on this one - the armor bonuses from different sources do not stack. The rules are silent when it comes to other magical properties of the armor.
There is no "shutting down" of armor language in any rules EXCEPT bracer's of armor. This was done explicitly to stop players from enchanting a suit of armor with a bunch of bells and whistles AND getting some +1 bracers and enchanting THEM with a bunch of other bells and whistles. This is a non-issue when it comes to stacking a mage armor spell with armor. Or a shield spell with a buckler.
I think the default is that all the functions of the armor and shield work EXCEPT the bonus to the AC.
Then we shall agree to disagree. I'm not giving Shield and Mage Armor a free pass because they are cast spells instead of permanent items. Mage Armor is in all ways equal to Bracers of Armor +4, which explicitly get suppressed by competing armor.
YMMV. I see no exception for armor benefit from a cast spell being 'free' of the restriction of permanent items. If anything, I'd think it would be even more vulnerable.
==Aelryinth