Okay so I've been playing the Kingmaker adventure path and my GM has deemed that Summoner's are broken, anyone have any advice on how to un-break the Eidelons?
What point-buy are you playing at? About how optimized is your group? Do you have the recommended wealth for your level? The relative power of the Summoner class depends heavily on these things. He tends to excel in groups with low point-buy, low optimization, and low wealth.
Is the GM banning summoners, or just griping about how powerful they are?
swap out to using summon monster and constantly have a supply on monsters and then see if he thinks eidolons are OP. Seriously though, your party is probably nt that optimized, as eidolons are pretty static in strength compared to other things. especially since you share item slots with your eidolon.
Master Summoner un-broke the eidelon. Some people get bent out of shape at how well the class summons monsters, though.
Or perhaps you're asking for homebrew rules?
the issue that i have with it is that its not the characters job to purposefully play bad, to make up for a DM that cant handle what a character wants to play
its the DM's job to figure out ways to get past a 50 AC max saves monk
or the mythic spirited charge foe biting perfect striking mammoth riding cavalier monstrosity
the point is that its the DM's JOB to let the players have an enjoyable experience, and if something was really as overpowered as he is saying it is, then why not show him an AM BARBARIAN build or something like that
i guarantee that a fully optimized wizard or hell any other martial can outdo your eidolon eventually
and the eidolon is like THE summoner class feature
its like a druid with no wild shape or animal companion
a paladin with no smite
a barbarian with no rage
hell an eidolon is only there a fight or two before it drops, because healing the thing is such a f!@!ing spell-sponge its generally only worth it to keep it around a few fights a day
i know there's archetypes that get rid of it, but banning the class is just bad form
and if you don't optimize the damn thing, its pitifull compared to teh fighters.
and the biggest reason to play a summoner is an eidolon. taking that away because the dm dislikes it is basically just saying that pazio has no idea what its doing
summoners have HUGE weaknesses
they have one of the most restrictive spell lists in the game
to make good use of its class features, feat investment is heavy(
there are spells build specifically to screw with them (devolution and control summoned creature)
in ANY TEMPLE EVER MADE EVER, if their eidolon drops they are useless besides the few battlefield control spells they have.
summoners are great, but without like SUPER MAXIMIZE OPTIMIZE EVERYTHING they aren't as horrid as people think
the reason people look at summoners and things like that is because on these forums people do theory-craft builds to min/max and optimize EVERYTHING
and that gives things a bad rep
i will say this
summoners can be extremely fun to play
if you find ways to make your character more of a party member than the eidolon then they are super fun
in combat they work well with groups, and can help towards filling a front-line fighter role, but on their own they really aren't as bad as people think
i'm going to end my rant now
-Amy-
I've played a summoner twice and have had similar problems with one of my DMs. There my eidolon had vastly more AC and did a lot more damage then any of the other characters in the group. That DM couldn't handle it all that well, and made it worse with some of his house rules (we had to roll even for the eidolon's hp, a couple of tens later you can see the problem).
Now the second time I'm playing a summoner is right now (synthesist this time). What I'm doing at the moment is keeping it in line with the other characters in the party on purpose. For example the max hp in the party (level 4) is 21, so I try to keep ~23 as my max. I do the same with damage, trying to keep my average comparable to that of the archer and 2 handed fighter. The remaining evolution points simply go into utility. So if you want to work with your DM then I'd advice doing what I did the second time and try to keep it in line with the other characters in the party. Everybody will have more fun that way.
What I don't understand about this DM attitude is the fact that the Eidolon has one glaring weakness, The Summoner.
In my game, the Eidolon is a beast, and will regularly tear things up with alacrity. But it manages to go down every tough fight. Why? The summoner gets targeted eventually and goes down, and then the Eidolon will disappear.
I guess it helps that the summoner is a gnome and looks the weakest physically of the group, but still, thats the tactic I've never seen mentioned.
prototype00
What I don't understand about this DM attitude is the fact that the Eidolon has one glaring weakness, The Summoner.
In my game, the Eidolon is a beast, and will regularly tear things up with alacrity. But it manages to go down every tough fight. Why? The summoner gets targeted eventually and goes down, and then the Eidolon will disappear.
I guess it helps that the summoner is a gnome and looks the weakest physically of the group, but still, thats the tactic I've never seen mentioned.
prototype00
go melee summoner (if you have the rolls), and then this isn't as much of a problem.
Ah, but here is the great bit, unless you are playing a synthesist, every point you put into the melee stats is a point less you have for spellcasting.
Coupled with mid-bab and mid-HP and mid-armor, this makes Summoners only about as good as a cleric with no healing spells (clerics are about as good as buffing as summoners are).
So you can concentrate in an area which you will be at best, mid tier, or you can concentrate on your strong point, your Eidolon and buffing, and be a squishy little weak point.
I wonder why DMs don't see this?
Synthesists are a whole other issue, I might consider limiting access to that class, but Vanilla summoner certainly isn't problematic.
prototype00
From my experience the Summoner isn't the/a problem.
The problems come from:
1 Incorrectly built eidolons
2 GMs not targeting the Summoner (the squishy part of the class)
3 Players being disorganised and not having SM stats printed off and at hand, slowing the game to a crawl while the look stuff up in the Bestiaries.
4 Houseruling all elementals to be summoned instead of the Big Four.
5 Not actually understanding the class features by players/GMs.
6 Players not organised enough to buy enough dice to roll and sit there rolling a single d20 four times to hit, then a single d6 four times for damage.
IMO, the summoner is not that broken (except the Synthesist, who can become a monster... that is why I banned it). The main problem with this class: keep track of the Evolution point. For a DM, it's hard to understand why the Eidolon can do this and that. It's not like the other class who are very linear: the Eidolon use points, and if the player incorrectly build it/ try to cheat, the DM become in quite a pinch..
Personnaly, I would accept it, but with a constant check up of the evolution point (at least, you will knoe better what the Eidolon can do).
there are spells build specifically to screw with them (devolution and control summoned creature)
Yeah, but you will not meet caster with those spell quite often. Unless the caster was scrying you...
Most of the simplest arguments I have seen for why people are not happy with Summoners in their games boil down to time and action economy. In that the summoned creatures and the summoner just take to long for their combined actions to resolve. Not being OP, which they can be (Synthesists get a lot of flak for this, and don'y impinge in time). Not poorly built or misunderstood Eidolon rules, which can happen. Or disorganised players, which I am also sure happens.
Just plain taking up a lot of time at the table.
Honestly I'm having fun building a Summoner and Eidolon for 7th level, I probably won't be using him in this campaign but the one I shall be running the character will be a NPC. Our DM just had experience with how broken a Summoner Wizard can be, a fellow gamer is being adamant about Summoners.
Biggest problem with the Summoner is that his turn can take so long. Trying to decide what critter to summon and then having 2-3 critters on the map taking actions takes a lot of time. This is made worse by not having a list of pre-statted critters available.
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Speaking as DM, I've no problem with Summoners (apart from the synthesist) - but I do apply the following rules:
1) If you don't have a stat-card ready right now for the monster you're summoning, it's not coming (you get the equivalent of a 'busy signal' from the relevant Plane); pick something you do have stats for.
2) Remember that you don't control summoned monsters telepathically - you have to order them around. If you abuse the 'speech is a free action' rule I will change it.
3) Use the time everyone else is acting to plan your turn, so when I come to you you're ready. Yes, that means you have to pay attention to what's going on.
4) Complaining about any of the above is a full-round action.
This may sound severe, but table-top gaming can get really bogged down - I want it to be fun for everyone, which means not letting one person's turn last 20 minutes...