If handled well, it could be a fun supplement. A cavalier order devoted to upholding the ideals of courtly love or a paladin focused on making love, not war, would be a really cool addition to the account.
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The book would also have to focus on the individual marriage customs of each culture and how cross-culture marriages work. And, it would be quite lovely to see how the resulting images!
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I could see this being an interesting book, so long as it doesn't go as far as the Book of Erotic Fantasy and the Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge (I think that's what it was called). But I can see people groaning about Pathfinder making a new Book of Erotic Fantasy.
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That said, I wouldn't mind having a little sexual information. Like alchemical contraceptives. I mean, come on, this setting has tons of sexual gods. There's a little room for more information in that area.
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I cannot see this being a good idea, likely it will get pathfinder associated with those other attempts at love/sex books
I think we have move forward enough not to care about people who are irked by mentions of sexuality in Pathfinder. And let's be honest - those who are put off by the whole icky oooky bees and flowers stuff, be it hetersexual and otherwise, are likely long gone and back with publishers who gloss over sexuality for the sake of playing it safe.
That said, I wouldn't mind having a little sexual information. Like alchemical contraceptives. I mean, come on, this setting has tons of sexual gods. There's a little room for more information in that area.
Contraceptives, both magical and alchemical, make perfect sense to be covered. We typically hand waive it, assuming that there's cantrips and holistic methods of managing contraception whenever it comes up in our games. It was marginally important in the backstory of one of my wife's characters, as she had been a prostitute before becoming an adventurer.
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Night Tea is both official and effectively the pill in tea form for 1 sp per day in price. And Bachelor's Snuff is the man's version as well, though that's 1 gp per dose and thus pretty much limited to the wealthy. Both are in the Adventurer's Armory. Contraception is thus covered already.
I cannot see this being a good idea, likely it will get pathfinder associated with those other attempts at love/sex booksI think we have move forward enough not to care about people who are irked by mentions of sexuality in Pathfinder. And let's be honest - those who are put off by the whole icky oooky bees and flowers stuff, be it hetersexual and otherwise, are likely long gone and back with publishers who gloss over sexuality for the sake of playing it safe.
Yeah, if they're still playing this game after reading the Ogre write-up in the Bestiary, then likely a book like this wouldn't drive them off.
Just so you know, the charm domain already has love and lust subdomains. A book like this, if done right, would be interesting.
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Oh gods, who would they put on the cover?
Because right now, I'm seeing Valeros and Seoni in a ridiculous Romance Novel-style embrace (Valeros bare-chested, of course), while in the background, Merisel and Lem are laughing their heads off with an empty bottle of Love Potion.
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Not every love spell has to be Dominate Person, you know. Most would be more of the subtle push kind, leaving the target free to choose how they deal with it.
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Enchantment magic, in general, yields all sorts of terrible ramifications related to concepts of free will and consent. Something that should honestly get a bit of upfront discussion regarding relationships. But the description is hilarious, nonetheless. Though I think, rather than Valeros, it should be one of the resident shirtless iconics... Seltyiel and Amiri, maybe. That'd be a funny role reversal.
What about using one or more of the new iconics from Advanced Class Guide for the cover?
I was imagining something more like "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" when I first clicked on the post, which has more to do with war, politics and conquest than actual romance.
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I'm all for this and its followup book, Bromance of the Inner Sea, all about buddy cop type adventuring duos!
When I saw this thread title I was thinking something else. I was thinking of something like Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which would probably be a better idea.
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The book would also have to focus on the individual marriage customs of each culture and how cross-culture marriages work. And, it would be quite lovely to see how the resulting images!
This would be the number one thing I would want from this book. I really would like to see this info. Though I don't just want marriage customs, but the whole courting process.
Also an expanded article on Shelyn, with Shelyn based feats and archetypes could be included.
I think this would be a great idea for a book, especially if there were also, say, a Lust or Desire or Pleasure Mystery for Oracles included.
It would be a useful tool in helping players escape some Magical Realming. Better off letting Paizo write the courting rituals of these societies than let some overambitious GM write something totally creepy and awkward.
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I can't help but think something closer in tone to Blue Rose would be a much safer bet. Something that was built around emulating the romantic fantasy genre, which would include romance rather than focusing on it exclusively.
Things I would really hope to not see are hardwired and unnecessary rules for relationships or sex. The former, because relationships between characters should be left entirely to roleplaying, and reducing that to numbers and a roll of the dice inevitably hurts roleplaying more than anything else. Forcing people to play classes that focus on Charisma if they want to have their PC have a chance at building relationships with NPCs is just one example of why this should be avoided. And the latter, because....well, not only does laying out rules for sex always come off as immature and embarassing IME, but honestly if people are going to be doing ERP, I can promise you most are not going to be relying on mechanics for it; it would do nothing but get in the way and kill the mood. And if sex turns up in a game that isn't being played for ERP, then they're highly unlikely to want any mechanics to push it further into the spotlight(and possibly turning it into a joke in the process). What folks that are into that sort of thing in their games would likely appreciate more would be flavor to build upon or bounce off of.
So that's another reason why I think a more "Blue Rose" approach would be more healthy for the game. Something that possibly had suggestions one where and how to plug in that romantic fantasy feel. Maybe a collection of romantic fantasy-ish campaign seeds too.(courtly intrigue between Taldor and Qadira, a Shelynite crusade to redeem Zon-Kuthon, etc.) And, especially given all the recent discussion on the matter, perhaps an NPC gallery of romantic interests and rivals?
Also agreeing that some confrontation of enchantments/charm effects and sexuality/consent would be needed, and that would have to be handled very carefully. Even the Love subdomain has some issues, being tied into the Charm domain as is.
Also, paladin codes for Lymnieris, Arshea, Isis, and Tsukiyo* plz!
*Sue me, I can't help but think of Tsukiyo as a romantic deity. :)
a paladin focused on making love, not war, would be a really cool addition to the account.
Paladin of Sheyln. Boom. Done.
Poor, poor Sheyln, relegated to the background of the gods.
I'm just gonna leave this here. Though it does focus more on the Book of Erotic Fantasy and more sexually themed content, Wes does mention some general concerns when approaching this design space as a company.
That said, I think something like Mikaze's proposal could assuage many concerns, and if executed well, could fit nicely within Paizo's design goals and philosophies.
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We should keep in mind that romance and family (not always the same thing) are probably the #1 by a mile reasons for real adventuring, and for people doing stuff in fiction in general.
Ironically, most gamers are unwilling to have romance or love be a primary motivation for their character's actions... hence, I think, the murder-hobo archetype.
It's kind of odd. Tolkien's Hobbit and LotR have other motivations driving the characters as well, but ultimately come down to platonic and compassionate love anyway.
My quasi-India setting puts it front and centre because the literature of South Asia does, but in fact, European literature does the same.
However, I suspect if we can get this written, it won't come out till next February.
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The book would also have to focus on the individual marriage customs of each culture and how cross-culture marriages work. And, it would be quite lovely to see how the resulting images!
Of everything mentioned thus far, that's the thing I'd most like to see. That one wouldn't even necessarily need to go in a full on Romance book. It could instead go into something like "Festivals of the Inner Sea" or something like that, detailing holiday traditions, milestone celebrations and whatnot.
Though I'd be down for a Romance book carrying that stuff instead.
@Mikaze
You're right that we shouldn't have rules for getting into or maintaining a relationship i.e. roll d20 so see if standing outside playing a romantic song on your beatbox goes over well.
Instead what could be fun are optional rules on the benefits of a relationship. Something like this or even something as small as the lover's comfort effect in Skyrim.
In fact, the book could be about suggestions for rewarding players for good roleplay. If they have a big family and RP with them well, they get a different bonus. If they play an orphan, they get one as well. Maybe a boss/subordinate dynamic. I think it could encourage people to interact more with NPCs and the rest of the party.
We should keep in mind that romance and family (not always the same thing) are probably the #1 by a mile reasons for real adventuring, and for people doing stuff in fiction in general.
Ironically, most gamers are unwilling to have romance or love be a primary motivation for their character's actions... hence, I think, the murder-hobo archetype.
It's kind of odd. Tolkien's Hobbit and LotR have other motivations driving the characters as well, but ultimately come down to platonic and compassionate love anyway.
My quasi-India setting puts it front and centre because the literature of South Asia does, but in fact, European literature does the same.
However, I suspect if we can get this written, it won't come out till next February.
I think it started out with the stereotype of the DM killing anyone close to your character, so no one wanted a love interest in fear he/she would be killed. Then there's those who would have a hard time seperating in character flirtation with out of character flirtation (similar to the whole character knowledge vs player knowledge). And to expand on that part, with the higher number of males who play compared to females, some would feel uncomfortable with man-to-man flirtation (despite either character being female). Then there's also female players being uncomfortable with the DM having an NPC flirt with their character as (again) they may think it's an excuse for the DM to actually flirt with the player.
There's just all kinds of excuses as to why most gamers are unwilling to have romance play any type of part in a game. Whether the romance involves a DM controlled NPC (not the DMPC) or something in their background. Then there's the prudishness factor of American culture (look up George RR Martin's comments about the whole violence vs sex). People also view romance to be more private as well.
Honestly, for me, I wouldn't mind having romance in a game. I think I am mature enough for it to occur. Whether everyone else is, is a different story all together. And kudos for being brave enough to include it in your game.
Something like Love and War from Atlas Games or Blue Rose would be cool, but targeted at Golarion would be cool.
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I'm just gonna leave this here.
...I'm tempted to swipe that couple from that Numenera book and use them as an example of an inter-caste Pure One/God-Vessel Vercite pair now...
Also: So I know I said people that are into heavy romance don't want mechanics involved, but I'm willing to be proven wrong by "Hot Guys Making Out". It has character creation rules too...how to do a Golarion reskin....
@Larkos, Yeah, non-intrusive bonuses like that are something I could get behind. I might still worry that it would inform player decisions more than it should, but it seems the best approach at the moment.
What is "Blue Rose"?
Blue Rose. Apparently Green Ronin doesn't have any kind of marketing with Paizo, or I would have linked to the product here.
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What is "Blue Rose"?
Blue Rose is a game and campaign setting put out by Green Ronin. It's all about emulating the romantic fantasy genre. More Mercedes Lackey than Robert E. Howard. Romantic fantasy tends to run towards the idealism end of the idealism-vs-cynicism scale(which I really like), but one shouldn't take that to mean that horrible stuff doesn't happen or that there isn't any meaningful conflict, before that gripe starts.
....a simple and inaccurate way to put it is that romantic fantasy would have a higher percentage of PCs played by Paragon Shepard than sword-and-sorcery.
Blue Rose in particular emphasizes finding peaceful solutions right alongside punching evil in the face.
"Romantic Fantasy protagonists do often begin their journey by escaping an abusive or oppressive environment, but their goal is not to become free from all social ties. Instead, most characters are looking for a new community or social group where they truly belong. Being part of a supportive social group is considered far superior to being even the most independent and competent loner. Finding (or on occasion helping to create) a new social group where the character fits in and is happy is considered much better than attempting to force their previous group to change -- significant changes of opinion and practice are argued to be more beneficial and effective if they happen gradually, and develop from within rather than being imposed. While it often remains necessary for enemies to be defeated by direct violent confrontation, diplomatic resolution of conflict is considered superior to raw force; many stories contain, in addition to the primary (and usually most explicitly "evil" antagonist) a subsidiary or secondary antagonist with more sympathetic motivations, and who is eventually converted to an ally through negotiation and diplomacy."
Also, tying back to the thread, Blue Rose places a good bit of emphasis on romance. The setting is very LGBT-friendly too.
Something like Love and War from Atlas Games or Blue Rose would be cool, but targeted at Golarion would be cool.
I'd buy it. :)
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Or Mikaze's web-fu is superior...
Ah. I still have almost all of my hardcopies.
somewhere...
Oh gods, who would they put on the cover?
Because right now, I'm seeing Valeros and Seoni in a ridiculous Romance Novel-style embrace (Valeros bare-chested, of course), while in the background, Merisel and Lem are laughing their heads off with an empty bottle of Love Potion.
Alahazra and Khemet III lol
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MAYBE someone here is working on something like this... Keep in touch, you people! ^_^
I would like kink touched on in a positive light rather than regulating it all to Zon-Kuthon's abuse and Calistria's manipulation. I'm sure there are all kinds of shenanigans under the strict laws of the more restrictive and lawful faiths. Notes on non-western ideals of proper sexual as well as romantic behavior would be good too. Tian Xia customs, races that live a long time and so don't prioritize child bearing, primitive/animal-like people like the Strix or Ratfolk that might have actual mating seasons for example.
Pharasma is also a Goddess of Birth. There's an Oracle mystery for you. Feel free to use the Life, Fertility and Birth domain and subdomains I wrote for Kobold Press' goddess Mnemosyne as examples. I'd love to see every player of Pathfinder capable of inflicting the pain of giving birth on their enemies.
How does romance between deities and other outsiders even work with mortals? What's the view of other outsiders on such unions? Are offspring automatically demi-gods?
If they ever make this book and put new monsters in it. I vote for sex angels.
A positive version of a succubi/incubi wouldn't be a bad thing either. A celestial Cyrano de Bergerac that aids budding lovers with skill of words and defends with a dueling blade. Do something with Cupid, there aren't any results at all if you do a search for his name on the PF wikis. Abracadabra is an ancient word of magic that healed and amulets bearing it could protect infants. It could also be an excellent name for an outsider that protects infants.
Spells and magic items that aid in compatability. What the dragon uses to make half-dragons.
Bad things that might be appropriate to touch on: Intolerant organizations and societies and the punishments they mete out, abortion in a world with wish magic and alchemical contraceptives (good evil Hex and source for monsters). Spells that change your sex, make your junk fall off, or make you barren/sterile, generational curses. STDs (Another good source for monsters, if an icky one).
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I would like kink touched on in a positive light rather than regulating it all to Zon-Kuthon's abuse and Calistria's manipulation.
This'd be nice. To be fair to Paizo, nobody's explicitly against this sort of thing...but positive depictions haven't shown up as of yet. Which is sad. :(
I really want to see what a worshiper of Shelyn who specializes in infiltrating Zon-Kuthon's churches and redeeming Kuthonites is like...just as a purely hypothetical example that I certainly haven't put way too much thought into.
How does romance between deities and other outsiders even work with mortals? What's the view of other outsiders on such unions? Are offspring automatically demi-gods?
I don't have it handy, but didn't the mythic book(or maybe it was the smaller quests book?) touch on offspring of deities and whatnot?