How is this different if the creature gets put to sleep, blinded, stunned, or flat out killed by any number of other spells on the books? The pit spells arent the problem in this case, its the whole friggan magic system.
Also like I said, fixing this problem is easy. Step one (where possible) have 5 players instead of 4. Step 2, give them 20 point buy. Step 3 encourage moderate optimization of characters. Step 4 double the enemies in every encounter. In cases where that is functionally not possible (Even named characters can have bodyguards and such) grab an equal CR enemy out of the npc guide and monster manual. This takes slightly more time then it does to print out a couple extra stat blocks. You are adding maybe 15 minutes to your prep time tops.
3 players only no way to get anyomre, we have 20 point buy and use hero points, its not EVERY encounter and Im not saying i cant adapt its just create pit or rather spike pit and hungry pit if used cause problems. Its not a game breaker it just makes the combat rather dull. Climb will help thanks though. Other things you memtion I willhave to try sparingly and see what happens. Cheers
Pitt, I believe he's using the catch onto the side rules saying he never falls in so the distance doesn't matter. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't seem quite as easy as it's being made out to be, but again, haven't tested it too hard.
This is not true. How does a single point of climb get you an 80% chance of not falling in? Also a creatures climb speed is 1/4 of their base speed, so even double-moving it will take two turns to climb out of a 30 ft pit most of the time. Also the climb DC for a normal pit is 25. That is not a one point of climb triviality.
Slope climb DC is 0, +10 to "catch yourself". Thus if you fail your Reflex on the sloped area, you have to make a climb DC of 10, not very hard.
Pit DC is 25, but it has corners, thus +5 for that. And if you use accelerated climb @ +5 to the DC, you can get out in one round @30' move. Takes some luck but can be done if you have some sort of decent climb skill.
Pitt, I believe he's using the catch onto the side rules saying he never falls in so the distance doesn't matter. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't seem quite as easy as it's being made out to be, but again, haven't tested it too hard.
REALLY hard to do in the pit itself. DC is 45!
But the Slope is Dc0+10, so that's easy.
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Pitt, I believe he's using the catch onto the side rules saying he never falls in so the distance doesn't matter. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't seem quite as easy as it's being made out to be, but again, haven't tested it too hard.
Yup and the numbers make it easier then you could imagine.
Take for instance an average 1HD CR 1/3rd Orc and give him a single point in Climb. This gives him a base climb skill of 7 (1 +3(class skill) +3(str bonus).It needs to roll a 3 or better to avoid falling into the pit and a 7 or better to fast crawl 10 feet away as a single move action (using his standard action to stand up).
Create Pit simply costs that Orc 1 full round action to handle this spell.
Add to that since he gets to pick what direction he crawls and no PC can get adjacent to him while he crawls out the party can't even take advantage of his prone/flat footed Ac or take the AoO while it stands up.
Pitt, I believe he's using the catch onto the side rules saying he never falls in so the distance doesn't matter. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't seem quite as easy as it's being made out to be, but again, haven't tested it too hard.Yup and the numbers make it easier then you could imagine.
Take for instance an average 1HD CR 1/3rd Orc and give him a single point in Climb. This gives him a base climb skill of 7 (1 +3(class skill) +3(str bonus).
It needs to roll a 3 or better to avoid falling into the pit and a 7 or better to fast crawl 10 feet away as a single move action (using his standard action to stand up).
Create Pit simply costs that Orc 1 full round action to handle this spell.
Add to that since he gets to pick what direction he crawls and no PC can get adjacent to him while he crawls out the party can't even take advantage of his prone/flat footed Ac or take the AoO while it stands up.
Yes, but only on the slope. If he's unlucky enuf to have the spell cast directly underneath him, it's a DC 45.
Yes, but only on the slope. If he's unlucky enuf to have the spell cast directly underneath him, it's a DC 45.
Exactly. I used this spell (as DM) against my PCs in a low-level adventure and it took 2 characters out for the entire fight. One was an armored dwarf who had a terrible climb roll in his heavy armor. The other was a monk who rolled poorly and got stuck in the bottom for several rounds. He climbed out as the combat ended (poor dwarf was still trapped).
We vowed not to use them since the PCs didn't want to have them used against them.
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Yes, but only on the slope. If he's unlucky enuf to have the spell cast directly underneath him, it's a DC 45.Pitt, I believe he's using the catch onto the side rules saying he never falls in so the distance doesn't matter. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't seem quite as easy as it's being made out to be, but again, haven't tested it too hard.Yup and the numbers make it easier then you could imagine.
Take for instance an average 1HD CR 1/3rd Orc and give him a single point in Climb. This gives him a base climb skill of 7 (1 +3(class skill) +3(str bonus).
It needs to roll a 3 or better to avoid falling into the pit and a 7 or better to fast crawl 10 feet away as a single move action (using his standard action to stand up).
Create Pit simply costs that Orc 1 full round action to handle this spell.
Add to that since he gets to pick what direction he crawls and no PC can get adjacent to him while he crawls out the party can't even take advantage of his prone/flat footed Ac or take the AoO while it stands up.
Doesn't matter, as long as there is a slope it's a DC 10. Notice the rules state catching yourself on a slope NOT while sliding down a slope. No matter where you are standing every pit spell has a DC 10 climb check to avoid falling down the hole.
Yes having it cast directly under them is what I was referring to when I said not as easy as it seems, having the pit as a hazard on the field I have no issue with.
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For the record I don't think the slope DC applies, it seems to me that is meant to indicate when you are rolling down a slope and trying to stop yourself from falling. This seems far more akin to catching onto a flat surface while falling. I don't see these rules that you say specify for catching a slop while not sliding down the slope though, so perhaps I'm just blind.
For the record I don't think the slope DC applies, it seems to me that is meant to indicate when you are rolling down a slope and trying to stop yourself from falling. This seems far more akin to catching onto a flat surface while falling. I don't see these rules that you say specify for catching a slop while not sliding down the slope though, so perhaps I'm just blind.
I think he's misreading it also. I think you can catch yourself using the easy slope DC ONLY on the slope, not if the pit is created under you.
But I do think you can catch yourself on the sloped portion very easily.
That doesn't work. Create Pit doesn't make a whole in the earth. It's actually more like a portable hole that is 30ft deep. None of the earth below it is displaced
That's weird, I read it just before posting and somehow still forgot the "extradimensional" part. Just focused on the, "it raises you up" part at the end
I think what Samasboy1's saying is that if one side of the "virtual hole" opens onto an open space, create pit does not impose a barrier to block people from crawling into the pit from that open side.
well, that is certainly what I imagined, but Claxon still has me re-thinking if it would work.
The idea was that if cast on the edge, it would extend 5' into the cliff and 5' into the air. So the "middle" of the pit would be on the face, thus leaving an "open side" to enter.
The "catching yourself on a slope" rules are a subset of the rules used while climbing. Even if you interpret that as allowing a free Climb check for creatures standing in the sloped area adjacent to the pit that suddenly materializes beneath their feet (which I don't - that is precisely what the Ref +2 save is for), it still follows all other Climb restrictions.
E.G., a creature would need both hands free and not using a shield in order to even make that reflexive Climb check unless they had an ability that allows them to Climb without two free hands.
That doesn't work. Create Pit doesn't make a whole in the earth. It's actually more like a portable hole that is 30ft deep. None of the earth below it is displaced.
That's weird, I read it just before posting and somehow still forgot the "extradimensional" part. Just focused on the, "it raises you up" part at the end.
That's okay, I just realized I spelled hole with a w, using the wrong homophone.
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For the record I don't think the slope DC applies, it seems to me that is meant to indicate when you are rolling down a slope and trying to stop yourself from falling. This seems far more akin to catching onto a flat surface while falling. I don't see these rules that you say specify for catching a slop while not sliding down the slope though, so perhaps I'm just blind.
The sum total of what is written about slops in the climb skill
Catch Yourself When Falling
It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).
Also remember the way the spell works. You don't target the square under an opponent you target a vertex so it affects the requisite number of squares. No matter what square the opponent is in they are literally within reach of the slope. Put out a hand and grab hold of that slope to catch yourself then just climb up and out.
I wish I could draw it out to make it easier to understand but grab your flip mat and do this.
Pick any 4 adjacent squares in a box formation nad put a dot at the point where all 4 of the boxes touch. Those are the squares that drop out when the spell is cast.
Now look at every square touching one of those initial 4 squares, those are the slope squares. If you put a figure in any of those initial squares they occupy ALL the space in whatever square they are in.
With that view all they need to do is grab hold of any part of that slope square (no action cost since it happens off their turn at DC 10) and make climb check (DC 10; DC 15 to do it at half speed) to climb that slope and move to the next square.
edit: @WROY, Incorrect, keep reading the climb rules.
You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing. Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall. Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage.
As long as the target has one hand free the can grab and cling to the wall, they only need 2 hands if they want to actually move around.
And the hole doesn't just suddenly appear, the ground just drops rapidly out from under the target and then rises back up when the spell ends.If it just suddenly disappeared there would be no way for them to jump out of the square into an adjacent square since there would be nothing to jump against to move.
Well I happen to disagree with your interpretation about what they consider catching yourself on a slope. I think it's pretty clear. But to each their own.
EDIT: Upon further introspection, I do think your POV of how the slope rules works has more merit than I initially gave it, but I still come to the conclusion that it was not what was intended.
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Well I happen to disagree with your interpretation about what they consider catching yourself on a slope. I think it's pretty clear. But to each their own.
And you are well within your rights to run this however you choose in your games. We just ask that you remember your interpretation is pretty much death and/or complete uselessness/out of the fight for every target who doesn't have a Good reflex save from a 2nd level spell slot.
AND has caused dozens of GM's to come onto these forums complaining about how overpowered this line of spells are.My interpretation still makes this a strong spell (completely out of the fight for at least 1 round) without making this spell an instant win button.
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Have you tried giving your NPCs life alert?
I rather like Create Pit, but the duration probably should be "Concentration."
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So I just did the math on the sloped portions of the pit.
If the sloped section is 5 feet wide (it is, it takes up the full square) that means that that section extends down to 10 feet from the pit's surface, at the 60 degree angle cutoff between "slope" and "wall."
So, I'm going to have to disagree that you can catch yourself on this when the pit forms. If you fail the reflex for "standing next to the pit" then yeah, you totally can catch yourself on a slope.
But not if your within the 10x10 effected area: You're going to fall 10 feet before the slopped section is within grabbing distance. And at that point, it's a wall. Large size creature, of course, has natural reach, and will be able to grab the slope, I've got no problems with this, it's medium and smaller creatures that will be unable to reach out and catch the slope part.
Not to mention the problems of having both hands free. For a fighter type that means dropping either weapon or shield in order to have a hand free. And that dropped item is going to be in the pit until the spell ends.
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So I just did the math on the sloped portions of the pit.
If the sloped section is 5 feet wide (it is, it takes up the full square) that means that that section extends down to 10 feet from the pit's surface, at the 60 degree angle cutoff between "slope" and "wall."
So, I'm going to have to disagree that you can catch yourself on this when the pit forms. If you fail the reflex for "standing next to the pit" then yeah, you totally can catch yourself on a slope.
But not if your within the 10x10 effected area: You're going to fall 10 feet before the slopped section is within grabbing distance. And at that point, it's a wall. Large size creature, of course, has natural reach, and will be able to grab the slope, I've got no problems with this, it's medium and smaller creatures that will be unable to reach out and catch the slope part.
Not to mention the problems of having both hands free. For a fighter type that means dropping either weapon or shield in order to have a hand free. And that dropped item is going to be in the pit until the spell ends.
Remember, all creatures occupy the 5' square they are in COMPLETELY. Every square centimeter of it is filled by the object/creature so 3 dimensional space is ignored.
A creature in 1 square can reach every point in every adjacent square so that math doesn't matter. This is part of the abstraction built into the combat rules.Having to drop or sheath your weapon to climb is a valid and understood requirement and makes the spell as powerful as it is while still keeping it under the level of brokenly over-powered that this thread is addressing.
@plaidwandering, that falls under the "Rule of Cool" usually. The standard action star running down the hall with his trusty pistol/shield/sword/etc. who falls down a pit grabs hold of the ledge without dropping his weapon and hangs there for a moment. He then either tosses the weapon over the ledge before climbing up or sheathes it and then climbing up is usually how it's portrayed. Rules-wise it's just a climb check to catch on then a move action to put the weapon away or free action to drop it in an adjacent square (where it falls in the pit if you do it on a slope).
Also remember the way the spell works. You don't target the square under an opponent you target a vertex so it affects the requisite number of squares. No matter what square the opponent is in they are literally within reach of the slope. Put out a hand and grab hold of that slope to catch yourself then just climb up and out.
Being able to 'put out a hand' doesn't matter. Your character is either in a square that is sloped, and can use the slope rules for catching yourself when falling or not, and instead must use the adjacent wall and try and catch yourself on that.
If a pit is created in a square you are standing on, you are not on a slope, assuming you don't make the reflex save to jump, you are falling and must try and catch the wall.
It also could be argued, and I think personally this is the case, the the general rule of catching yourself on a slope is overridden by the specific rule of Reflex Save + 2 to avoid falling into the pit. If you don't make your save, you are falling in the pit and hence, not on the slope.
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Remember, all creatures occupy the 5' square they are in COMPLETELY. Every square centimeter of it is filled by the object/creature so 3 dimensional space is ignored.
CITATION NEEDED.
Anyway, by this logic no one can ever fall into any pits ever under any circumstances as long as they're adjacent to a wall.
If grabbing onto a slope to prevent yourself from falling is a DC 10 check, then certainly grabbing a flat surface is even easier. If a pit trap opens underneath you, all you have to do is grab the ground 5 feet away from you with a DC 0 check.
Anyway, your interpretation jumps through several logical hoops (I'm not sure the "keep yourself from falling" rules were meant for when a pit OPENS UP beneath you but rather if you're already climbing) to completely obviate a spell. Yes, turning a DC X reflex save or fall into a DC X save or have to make a completely trivial check that almost all monsters will make on a 1 is very different.
Remember, all creatures occupy the 5' square they are in COMPLETELY. Every square centimeter of it is filled by the object/creature so 3 dimensional space is ignored.
[citation needed]
A creature in 1 square can reach every point in every adjacent square so that math doesn't matter. This is part of the abstraction built into the combat rules.
[citation needed]
That and I'm pretty sure you need to be IN the square with the slope to catch yourself on a slope.
It also could be argued, and I think personally this is the case, the the general rule of catching yourself on a slope is overridden by the specific rule of Reflex Save + 2 to avoid falling into the pit. If you don't make your save, you are falling in the pit and hence, not on the slope.
And there's that.
So I just did the math on the sloped portions of the pit.
If the sloped section is 5 feet wide (it is, it takes up the full square) that means that that section extends down to 10 feet from the pit's surface, at the 60 degree angle cutoff between "slope" and "wall."
So, I'm going to have to disagree that you can catch yourself on this when the pit forms. If you fail the reflex for "standing next to the pit" then yeah, you totally can catch yourself on a slope.
But not if your within the 10x10 effected area: You're going to fall 10 feet before the slopped section is within grabbing distance. And at that point, it's a wall.
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I agree, the slope is no problem, the pit is very hard.
Yes, there's a save. There is also a a Climb check. Just like some spells have a To Hit and a Save or SR. Specific overrules general. There's no need to write that into the spell as you can ALWAYS try to catch yourself with a Climb check.
A creature in 1 square can reach every point in every adjacent square so that math doesn't matter. This is part of the abstraction built into the combat rules.
Wait, if this is true then everyone has 10 foot reach!
Remember, you said that everyone takes up the WHOLE 5x5 ft square, every last point. Geometrically speaking. The lines that delineate different squares belong to both squares, it is their tangency. Therefore, if you can reach into any point in the adjacent square, you can also reach the line delineating it from the subsequent square, which is part of that square, and thus you can attack 2 squares away.
I agree, the slope is no problem, the pit is very hard.Yes, there's a save. There is also a a Climb check. Just like some spells have a To Hit and a Save or SR. Specific overrules general. There's no need to write that into the spell as you can ALWAYS try to catch yourself with a Climb check.
I always assumed that bit was about catching yourself when you're already climbing.
But alright, if you get a pit popped underneath you, you can make a single DC 35 (or more, depending on the type of pit) climb check to then be tangling at the first 5 feet down the hole.
But alright, if you get a pit popped underneath you, you can make a single DC 35 (or more, depending on the type of pit) climb check to then be tangling at the first 5 feet down the hole.
15 feet*
The sloped section consumes the top 10 feet, you'd be "3 squares down."
Geometrically speaking.
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Ok, you want citations here you go.
First,
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Any target of any size in an adjacent 5' square can be reached and attacked with any weapon. Whether it's the 5x5x5 gelatinous cube filling the square or the 1 inch tall fairy in the far back upper-most square an attacker can still reach it.
Secondly,
FAQ Link, Can you pick up or manipulate an object in a square within your reach? Does this provoke an AOO? Does it provoke even if the foe can reach the object, but not your space?
The rules are a little hazy here, but to put it simply, you can affect objects and creatures within your reach. When picking up or manipulating objects, you generally provoke an attack of opportunity, but only against foes that can reach your space.
No matter where in a adjacent square something is you can always reach out and put your hand on it.
Next,
In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Since you can attack anything in any part of an adjacent square and can reach out and grab anything in any part of any adjacent square and ,unless you are tiny or smaller, only 1 creature can occupy a given 5' square this lets you know that 5' cube you are in is all you.
Finally the climb rules for catching yourself,
Catch Yourself When Falling
It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).
Specifically state if you are falling you can catch yourself on a slope. It does NOT say sliding down a slope it says FALLING you can catch yourself on a slope.
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This is not true. You cannot catch yourself before falling into the pit. You get a reflex save. You fail it you fall...This is not true. How does a single point of climb get you an 80% chance of not falling in? Also a creatures climb speed is 1/4 of their base speed, so even double-moving it will take two turns to climb out of a 30 ft pit most of the time. Also the climb DC for a normal pit is 25. That is not a one point of climb triviality.If you have a problem with create pit the only modification you need to do is give each bad guy a single point in the climb skill. This will keep 80+% of your creatures from falling into the pit and change the spell to simply be a 1 round delay spell. (bad guy has to spend a full round action to climb off the slope and stand up then they are back in the fight)Kolokotroni I agree with you but it depends on the encounters and enemies in the AP im running and the environment. I run AP's as I dont have the time or energy to write my own. If the pit gets cast and the eneny as written cant do anything other than try to get out then its not fun. Everythng you say is valid IF the enemy in the pit has access to them and they get to go first if not then its a problem.
As I wrote earlier it's a DC 10 climb check to catch yourself from sliding down a slope and falling into a bit. This means any target who makes that check doesn't move so the only need to crawl 10 feet to be completely out of the pit's area. If they can make a DC 15 check then the move at half speed (usually 15 feet more or less).
the reason 1 point is usually enough is Climb is on 80% of the creature types out there's class skill list. This gives them 1 +3 +(Str/Dex Bonus) vs that DC 10 making this an almost automatic success to avoid falling into the pit AND making it out.
Everyone puts a point into the climb skill for a reason and this is one of those reasons.
You obviously haven't read the Climb skill rules so until you can address that you really have nothing to say in this argument. Now if you wish to address the point in question here you are more then welcome to join in.
@Meager Rolmug , Per the rules of the pathfinder system since this spell specifically calls into play the climb rules AND unless there is something in the spell that specifically excludes any part of that existing rule (ie. the catch yourself) then those rules are valid and must be used.
The spell has to deal with this possibility and since it doesn't say not to use this part of the climb skill it works.
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If there's a pit trap- you fail your reflex save you fall in- but you can catch yourself. All sorts of things where if you fail your save you fall. Still, the specific rule under climbing rules here.
There's not need to add it to the spell description as you always can try it, whenever falling.
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You fail it you fall in. That is how the spell works. You miss the reflex save you fall
Yes, and anytime you are falling, you can make a Climb check to catch the wall.
So i guess my wizard is so inept that when he creates a pit he "accidentally" adds dozens of handholds...there is next to nothing to grab ahold of and no time to try, you either jump clear in time or you don't!!
Indeed, he does "The pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25."
I mean, why not the "A perfectly smooth, flat vertical surface" which "cannot be climbed."?
Right there in the spell "coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25".
The slope is not given a DC, thus it defaults to normal slope.
My Master Summoner loves it - especially when the summoned critters follow my foes down into the pit.
So yeah, I can see some GMs having issues with it, especially at lower levels, but as stated, its useless against huge creatures, creatures who can fly, etc. Its hardly game-breaking.
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My Master Summoner loves it - especially when the summoned critters follow my foes down into the pit.
So yeah, I can see some GMs having issues with it, especially at lower levels, but as stated, its useless against huge creatures, creatures who can fly, etc. Its hardly game-breaking.
Yeah, dude- if you're running a Master Summoner, the least of your DM's problems is Create Pit!
;-)
So i guess my wizard is so inept that when he creates a pit he "accidentally" adds dozens of handholds...there is next to nothing to grab ahold of and no time to try, you either jump clear in time or you don't!!Indeed, he does "The pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25."
I mean, why not the "A perfectly smooth, flat vertical surface" which "cannot be climbed."?
Right there in the spell "coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25".
The slope is not given a DC, thus it defaults to normal slope.
I too find that problematic since the pit itself is an extra-dimensional space (it could be created on the deck of a ship, for instance). I'd give creatures with an actual climb speed the ability to get out but for anyone else it'd be impossible to climb.
Remember, all creatures occupy the 5' square they are in COMPLETELY. Every square centimeter of it is filled by the object/creature so 3 dimensional space is ignored.
I think it would be more useful to say that a creature potentially inhabits any particular part of its space at any given moment until an action is taken that clarifies its exact position. A "Pathfinder Uncertainty Principle," if you will. :P
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No, because that is replaced by the reflex save. The hanging on by hand is part of the climbing rules. It's a spell effect. You fail the save, you fall in the pit. You're not necessarily even near an edge of the pit. An additional save doesn't happen because your reflex did not allow you to jump.Yes, and anytime you are falling, you can make a Climb check to catch the wall.
You fail it you fall in. That is how the spell works. You miss the reflex save you fall
No, if you fail the reflex save, you get a climb check, just like any other time you fall. The spell indicates you fall.
Do note that even if you fail the reflex save and make the check, you can be screwed. You're either prone or hanging on for dear life. If you have anything in your hands you have to drop it (OK, you can try it with one hand) . It's not like this is a great option. It is a reward for having a high skill check.
I think you've both stated your sides clearly, and that most of us understand why each of you judges things as you do. I'm not sure what is to be gained by arguing further (though believe me, I understand the temptation).